Looking for a build

[G.Cube]

I'm looking for a Frenzied Berserker build I saw a while back. It was an uber-charger build that killed the Tarrasque in one full attack, and showed all the math along with it.

Sorry to waste a thread on it, but does anyone know where it is?

[heavyfuel]

http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/5994449301/the-charging-fighter-breaking-3-5-d-d

The build is somewhat illegal as the guy says Valorous weapons deal double damage on a charge, when in reality they only deal double weapon damage on a charge. Power Attack and Str damage aren't multiplied by it.

Still incredibly strong though

[G.Cube]

http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/5994449301/the-charging-fighter-breaking-3-5-d-d

The build is somewhat illegal as the guy says Valorous weapons deal double damage on a charge, when in reality they only deal double weapon damage on a charge. Power Attack and Str damage aren't multiplied by it.

Still incredibly strong though

Actually, this is helpful, but not -quite- the build I saw, the one I'm looking for is pure barbarian/frezied beserker, I recall it using a keen scimitar also, if that helps at all.

[OldTrees1]

Let's see.
The Tarrasque has merely 858hp so we need 868 non lethal damage.
The Tarrasque has a pitiful 35 AC so we want at most an attack of +49 so that our last attack can only fail on a 1 when we charge(since will will have iterative attacks of course).

Race: Dragonborn Half Ogre Half Minotaur Water Orc
Build: Barbarian(Spirit Lion) 6 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / Barbarian +4

Strength: 18 +4(orc) +4(minotaur) +8(size increase) +4(ogre) +5(HD) +5(inherent) +6(belt) = 54(+22 modifier)
Rage Strength: 54 +4(rage) +10(frenzy) = 68(+29 modifier)

So our attack is +20(BAB) +29(Str) +2(charge) = +51 attack which exceeds our maximum goal. Since we get 5 attacks(4 from BAB, 1 from Frenzy) we want to do at least 174 damage per attack.

Currently we are dealing +80(Supreme Power Attack + Shock Trooper) +43(1.5x strength) +change(weapon) = 123. So we are not at our mark yet but we are only 51 damage per attack away. Let's make it simple by taking the Orc feat Headlong Rush (https://web.archive.org/web/20140213023133/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a) to double the damage from our attack.

So we now have 5 attacks that deal 246 damage each before considering our 2 handed weapon(non magical large greatclub?)
Attack: +51/+51/+46/+41/+36 vs AC 35.
Damage: (2d8 + 123)x2

Feats used: Prerequisites, Shock Trooper(and it's preqs), and Headlong Rush

Edit: I forgot about DR when I joked about a non magical weapon. Strangely enough we still deal enough damage even fighting through the DR 15/epic.

[Aegis013]

...Valorous weapons deal double damage on a charge, when in reality they only deal double weapon damage on a charge. Power Attack and Str damage aren't multiplied by it.
...

In my copy of Unapproachable East the enhancement says "When used in a charge, the valorous weapon deals double damage, much like a mounted warrior with the Spirited Charge feat."

Spirited Charge (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spirited_Charge) says you deal double damage with a melee weapon.

Both deal in damage multiplication (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Attack_Damage#Multiplying_Damage) which according to the SRD (as well as my copy of PHB pg. 134) include "all modifiers, except additional bonus dice"

PA and Str bonuses are modifiers, I'm pretty sure, so it looks like Valorous includes them to me.

[G.Cube]

Let's see.
The Tarrasque has merely 858hp so we need 868 non lethal damage.
The Tarrasque has a pitiful 35 AC so we want at most an attack of +49 so that our last attack can only fail on a 1 when we charge(since will will have iterative attacks of course).

Race: Dragonborn Half Ogre Half Minotaur Water Orc
Build: Barbarian(Spirit Lion) 6 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / Barbarian +4

Strength: 18 +4(orc) +4(minotaur) +8(size increase) +4(ogre) +5(HD) +5(inherent) +6(belt) = 54(+22 modifier)
Rage Strength: 54 +4(rage) +10(frenzy) = 68(+29 modifier)

So our attack is +20(BAB) +29(Str) +2(charge) = +51 attack which exceeds our maximum goal. Since we get 5 attacks(4 from BAB, 1 from Frenzy) we want to do at least 174 damage per attack.

Currently we are dealing +80(Supreme Power Attack + Shock Trooper) +43(1.5x strength) +change(weapon) = 123. So we are not at our mark yet but we are only 51 damage per attack away. Let's make it simple by taking the Orc feat Headlong Rush (https://web.archive.org/web/20140213023133/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a) to double the damage from our attack.

So we now have 5 attacks that deal 246 damage each before considering our 2 handed weapon(non magical large greatclub?)
Attack: +51/+51/+46/+41/+36 vs AC 35.
Damage: (2d8 + 123)x2

Feats used: Prerequisites, Shock Trooper(and it's preqs), and Headlong Rush

Edit: I forgot about DR when I joked about a non magical weapon. Strangely enough we still deal enough damage even fighting through the DR 15/epic.

I truly appreciate all the work you did, but it was a level 8 build, I cannot for anything remember where I saw it! I'll do some more digging and if I find it I'll be sure to post it back here.

[heavyfuel]

In my copy of Unapproachable East the enhancement says "When used in a charge, the valorous weapon deals double damage, much like a mounted warrior with the Spirited Charge feat."

Spirited Charge (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spirited_Charge) says you deal double damage with a melee weapon.

Indeed, with Spirited Charge you deal double damage with your weapon. It doesn't say "you deal double damage if you're wielding a melee weapon". Only the weapon damage is multiplied, so a medium Valorous Greatsword +1 deals 4d6+2. If you think about it, it's on par with other core feats and other +1 enchantments.

[OldTrees1]

I truly appreciate all the work you did, but it was a level 8 build, I cannot for anything remember where I saw it! I'll do some more digging and if I find it I'll be sure to post it back here.

Ah. I was wondering why it was so easy.

So you are looking at a Barbarian 6 / Frenzied Berserker 2? Did it have +1LA?

Dragonborn Half Ogre Half Minotaur Water Orc
Str: 18 +4(Orc) +12(Minotaur) +4(Ogre) +2(HD) +4(Belt since we can't afford a +6 belt) = 44(+17 modifier)
Raging Strength: 44 +4(rage) +6(frenzy) = 54(+22 modifier)

Gear: +4Belt[16K], +2Weapon[8K] = 24K < 27K

Multipliers I know of:
Diving Attack(+Total), Headlong Rush(+Total), Valorous(+Total), Leap Attack(+PA), Two Handed(+PA)

Our base damage:
3d6(Weapon) +33(Str) +8(PA)

With all the multipliers I know of:
12d6+4(Weapon) +132(Str) +48(PA) -15(DR) = 6*13+184-15 = 78+169 = 247 expected damage

We only get 3 attacks(BAB/BAB/BAB-5)
Our Attack bonus is +8+22+1+2=+33
With +33/+33/+28 vs AC 35 we can expect 19/20 + 2/20 * 19/20 + 19/20 + 2/20 * 19/20 + 14/20 + 2/20 * 14/20 = 1144/400 = 2.86 hits per charge

2.86 hits/round * 247 damage/hit = 706.42 damage/round.

That is very close but not quite there at 8 levels and +1LA. Power Attack from next level alone would add 6x2.86=17.16 damage

[G.Cube]

Ah. I was wondering why it was so easy.

So you are looking at a Barbarian 6 / Frenzied Berserker 2? Did it have +1LA?

Dragonborn Half Ogre Half Minotaur Water Orc
Str: 18 +4(Orc) +12(Minotaur) +4(Ogre) +2(HD) +4(Belt since we can't afford a +6 belt) = 44(+17 modifier)
Raging Strength: 44 +4(rage) +6(frenzy) = 54(+22 modifier)

Gear: +4Belt[16K], +2Weapon[8K] = 24K < 27K

Multipliers I know of:
Diving Attack(+Total), Headlong Rush(+Total), Valorous(+Total), Leap Attack(+PA), Two Handed(+PA)

Our base damage:
3d6(Weapon) +33(Str) +8(PA)

With all the multipliers I know of:
12d6+4(Weapon) +132(Str) +48(PA) -15(DR) = 6*13+184-15 = 78+169 = 247 expected damage

We only get 3 attacks(BAB/BAB/BAB-5)
Our Attack bonus is +8+22+1+2=+33
With +33/+33/+28 vs AC 35 we can expect 19/20 + 2/20 * 19/20 + 19/20 + 2/20 * 19/20 + 14/20 + 2/20 * 14/20 = 1144/400 = 2.86 hits per charge

2.86 hits/round * 247 damage/hit = 706.42 damage/round.

That is very close but not quite there at 8 levels and +1LA. Power Attack from next level alone would add 6x2.86=17.16 damage

I'm fairly certain there were no templates of LA+ races involved. I do recall a keen falchion being involved.

[OldTrees1]

I'm fairly certain there were no templates of LA+ races involved. I do recall a keen falchion being involved.

Huh. Well I conclude that it must have been using IRL multiplication rather than D&D multiplication. However just to test it. Here is the best I can do with +0LA and no templates and a +1 valorous keen falchion instead of a +4 belt.

Waterborn Orc Barbarian(Spirit Lion) 6 / Fenzied Berserker 3
Feats: 111369
1st) Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, Power Attack
3rd) Cleave
6th) Shock Trooper
9th) Headlong Rush

Gear: +1 Valorous Keen Falchion and +2 Belt of Str

Rage Str: 18+4+2+4+6+2(belt)=36(+13 modifier)

Attack: +9+13+1+2=+25/+25/+20 vs AC 35
9/20 + 9/20 * 6/20 + 9/20 + 9/20 * 6/20 + 4/20 + 4/20 * 6/20 = 1.43 hits per round
Damage: 6d4+3(weapon)+57(Str)+27(PA)-15(DR) = 87 damage per hit
87 damage/hit * 1.43 hits/round = 124.41 damage per round

[Aegis013]

Indeed, with Spirited Charge you deal double damage with your weapon. It doesn't say "you deal double damage if you're wielding a melee weapon". Only the weapon damage is multiplied, so a medium Valorous Greatsword +1 deals 4d6+2. If you think about it, it's on par with other core feats and other +1 enchantments.

Ok, but strength and PA are modifiers to your weapon damage. Which are increased when it undergoes multiplication, as per previously linked rules regarding multiplying damage. Right?

[Ellowryn]

Ok, but strength and PA are modifiers to your weapon damage. Which are increased when it undergoes multiplication, as per previously linked rules regarding multiplying damage. Right?

According to the Rules Compendium:

MULTIPLYING DAMAGE: Sometimes damage is multiplied, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage dice and add all modifiers multiple times. Total the results. Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s
normal damage, such as those dealt by precision damage abilities (see page 42), are never multiplied.

And to be honest if it didn't multiply damage it wouldn't really be worth it, as weapon damage becomes near worthless by the time you get to middle levels.

[heavyfuel]

Ok, but strength and PA are modifiers to your weapon damage. Which are increased when it undergoes multiplication, as per previously linked rules regarding multiplying damage. Right?

They are extra damage, but they aren't weapon damage, so they aren't multiplied by Spirited Charge nor Valorous Weapon. They are, however, multiplied by any other effect that multiplies damage (like a critical)


According to the Rules Compendium:


And to be honest if it didn't multiply damage it wouldn't really be worth it, as weapon damage becomes near worthless by the time you get to middle levels.

Both the feat and the enchantment are above average if you analyse the books they came out on, which is both before the 3.5 core rulebooks.

Compare Valorous to, say, Shocking. Both are +1, but shocking deals 1d6 energy damage while Valorous deals probably 2d6+1 regular damage on a charge. Valorous also scales, somewhat, because a +5 Valorous Greatsword will deal 2d6+5 extra damage, while Shocking remains as 1d6. So while it may not be worth it, it's much better than core +1 enchantments.

Similarly, Spirited Charge for mounted combatants is better than Weapon Specialization, a core feat that's supposedly really good and therefore unique to Fighters. If it's actually worth it or not it is besides the point.

[Ellowryn]

Weather they are "above average" or not really doesn't matter. In this case there were questions about how the feat and enchantment work, and by RAW you double, or triple if you have both, all damage except extra damage such as from precision damage or such.

Yes, there are supplements outside of core that give abilities that are far more powerful than similarly costing equivalents. But lets be honest here, a character that can ONLY do damage can do better damage by taking those abilities, and only if they can make those abilities work, otherwise they cannot do ANYTHING.

[Heliomance]

Let's see.
The Tarrasque has merely 858hp so we need 868 non lethal damage.
The Tarrasque has a pitiful 35 AC so we want at most an attack of +49 so that our last attack can only fail on a 1 when we charge(since will will have iterative attacks of course).

Race: Dragonborn Half Ogre Half Minotaur Water Orc
Build: Barbarian(Spirit Lion) 6 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / Barbarian +4

Strength: 18 +4(orc) +4(minotaur) +8(size increase) +4(ogre) +5(HD) +5(inherent) +6(belt) = 54(+22 modifier)
Rage Strength: 54 +4(rage) +10(frenzy) = 68(+29 modifier)

So our attack is +20(BAB) +29(Str) +2(charge) = +51 attack which exceeds our maximum goal. Since we get 5 attacks(4 from BAB, 1 from Frenzy) we want to do at least 174 damage per attack.

Currently we are dealing +80(Supreme Power Attack + Shock Trooper) +43(1.5x strength) +change(weapon) = 123. So we are not at our mark yet but we are only 51 damage per attack away. Let's make it simple by taking the Orc feat Headlong Rush (https://web.archive.org/web/20140213023133/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a) to double the damage from our attack.

So we now have 5 attacks that deal 246 damage each before considering our 2 handed weapon(non magical large greatclub?)
Attack: +51/+51/+46/+41/+36 vs AC 35.
Damage: (2d8 + 123)x2

Feats used: Prerequisites, Shock Trooper(and it's preqs), and Headlong Rush

Edit: I forgot about DR when I joked about a non magical weapon. Strangely enough we still deal enough damage even fighting through the DR 15/epic.

Where's that +8 coming from? That's only for creatures increasing in size from advancing HD.

[Ellowryn]

Where's that +8 coming from? That's only for creatures increasing in size from advancing HD.

The half-minotaur template specifically states that you gain not only the bonus to stats from the template but also gain stats from advancing in size by one category. To the best of my knowledge it is the only template to state so, which is why it is such a recommended template for anything having to do with str based melee.

[heavyfuel]

Weather they are "above average" or not really doesn't matter. In this case there were questions about how the feat and enchantment work, and by RAW you double, or triple if you have both, all damage except extra damage such as from precision damage or such.

Yes, there are supplements outside of core that give abilities that are far more powerful than similarly costing equivalents. But lets be honest here, a character that can ONLY do damage can do better damage by taking those abilities, and only if they can make those abilities work, otherwise they cannot do ANYTHING.

You double or tripple the damage of the weapon, this does not include Str damage, Power Attack, Inspire Courage, Weapon Specialization and other sources of damage. If you were to double/tripple all damage, it would have said so, but as the writing stands, you only multiply the damage of the weapon.

[Heliomance]

The half-minotaur template specifically states that you gain not only the bonus to stats from the template but also gain stats from advancing in size by one category. To the best of my knowledge it is the only template to state so, which is why it is such a recommended template for anything having to do with str based melee.

...what. Why would they do that?

[Ellowryn]

...what. Why would they do that?

Cause its from Dragon Magazine? The only source with worse proofreading and power scaling than wizards.

And heavyfuel, i copy/pasted out of the Rules Compendium, page 17. Its not a matter of questioning the source or how any of us think it should be, its right there for everyone to look. If you think it is way to overpowered then that is fine and if/when you run a campaign you can choose to nerf or remove those abilities but for RAW thats how it is.

[Aegis013]

You double or tripple the damage of the weapon, this does not include Str damage, Power Attack, Inspire Courage, Weapon Specialization and other sources of damage. If you were to double/tripple all damage, it would have said so, but as the writing stands, you only multiply the damage of the weapon.

It seems we're not going to convince you, but we like for our melees to have nice things. Your arguments, in my opinion, hold no water as the feat/weapon enhancement do not specifically state that they don't follow the normal multiplication rules. So I find it extremely unlikely you will be able to sway me.

Agree to disagree then?

[Rebel7284]

Perhaps the build had the MAXIMUM damage potential for killing a Tarrasque at level 8?

Frenzied Berserker doesn't actually do anything for such a build until it gets improved power attack at level 5, so would be useless for Tarrasque slaying at ECL 8.

[OldTrees1]

Where's that +8 coming from? That's only for creatures increasing in size from advancing HD.

As others have said, Half Minotaur foolishly includes the +8 by RAW. Personally I think it is ok for use without the size modifiers to stats. However I would not allow Half Ogre's LA+0 nonsense.