What rolls do I make to stay awake?

[RogueWizard]

So, I'm playing a game of pathfinder, and we have split the night into two hour shifts to have everyone get eight hours of sleep. The DM is making us roll a d20 with a DC of 20-constitution score to save from falling asleep. Personally, for a base 10 constitution score have a 50/50 shot to not be able to stay up two hours feels ridiculous especially if we have a task to keep ourselves busy, but no one has been able to find the actual ruling on DCs for staying awake.

Anyone know what the actual rules are, or are we stuck with house rules only?

[tyckspoon]

AFAIK this is one of the things where there just aren't rules - unless some outside effect specifically makes you fall asleep, your character sleeps and wakes when you say it does (although there *are* rules for hearing/being woken by things when you're asleep, suggesting that it's not quite that simple.) There aren't even rules for what happens when you don't sleep that I'm aware of, outside of those classes that need 'rest' in order to recharge abilities.

Edit: Note that even if you do fail your DM's 'stay awake' check, that doesn't mean you have to stay asleep. Another character, a familiar, or an animal companion could wake you up easily.. and your watch shifts really should never be composed of a single character anyway.

[torrasque666]

The only thing I could find on sleeping rules was a reference from AP#44: Trials of the Beast

Characters who do not get a full night's sleep may suffer the effects of fatigue. If a PC does not get at least 6 hours of sleep, she must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be fatigued and take a –1 penalty on all other checks and saving throws against sleep effects. A second night without sleep requires another DC 15 Fortitude save. A failed save results in the character becoming exhausted and the penalties increasing to –2. A third failed save on the next night increases the penalties to –3.

However though the glossary does state

The core rules are somewhat vague on the requirements of resting and sleeping so the following is an extrapolation of existing rules combined with rules taken from d20srd.org combined with a bit of our own personal ideas. Use at your discretion.
...
We think it is reasonable that most creatures must rest for approximately 1/3 of every day, which in most worlds translates to roughly 8 hours per day.

So yeah, they're houseruling, and I'm relatively sure most attempts to try and get around that will(using Animal companions, familiars, etc) not be met well.

[CGNefarious]

Why not just stand up for your entire shift. It's a lot more difficult to actually fall asleep while standing. You might be able to nod off for a few seconds, but if you guys get attack only during that very short period of time, then the DM is going to find a way to make it happen no matter what.

You could ask for it to be a concentration check instead, relying on character level. It seems to fit better anyway, unless you're exhausted for some reason.

[Berenger]

I'd let a player use the better value of either fortitude save or will save.

[prufock]

So, I'm playing a game of pathfinder, and we have split the night into two hour shifts to have everyone get eight hours of sleep. The DM is making us roll a d20 with a DC of 20-constitution score to save from falling asleep. Personally, for a base 10 constitution score have a 50/50 shot to not be able to stay up two hours feels ridiculous especially if we have a task to keep ourselves busy, but no one has been able to find the actual ruling on DCs for staying awake.

If your con score is over 20 can you stay awake forever?

There is no clear rule. It is reasonable that characters are required to sleep at intervals though. My houserule is to expand on the fatigue + fatigue = exhaustion rule. Becoming fatigued or exhausted again while already exhausted causes you to fall asleep/unconscious. Since consecutive days awake cause fatigue and exhaustion and you get cumulative penalties to your fort save, so eventually you'll fall asleep.

[Crake]

If your con score is over 20 can you stay awake forever?

There is no clear rule. It is reasonable that characters are required to sleep at intervals though. My houserule is to expand on the fatigue + fatigue = exhaustion rule. Becoming fatigued or exhausted again while already exhausted causes you to fall asleep/unconscious. Since consecutive days awake cause fatigue and exhaustion and you get cumulative penalties to your fort save, so eventually you'll fall asleep.

I know some mages with fatigue/exhaustion spells that would absolutely LOVE that houserule

[prufock]

I know some mages with fatigue/exhaustion spells that would absolutely LOVE that houserule
I'm sure there is some hole in this that has yet to be exploited in my games, but keeping mind that sleep/deep slumber spells and other save or lose/save or die spells exist, and that multiple fatigue effects from the same source won't stack, I don't see how it could be all that bad.

[Kurald Galain]

Since there is no Endurance skill, I would say that fortitude saves are the most appropriate. That said, DC 20 is obviously way too high for something as routine as this; I would start at DC 5.

"20 - constitution score" is silly, though; nothing in the rules uses con score for any rolls, and you don't use any rolls based on just an ability modifier either if there's something more specific that fits (i.e. a skill, or saving throw, or CMB).

[Crake]

I'm sure there is some hole in this that has yet to be exploited in my games, but keeping mind that sleep/deep slumber spells and other save or lose/save or die spells exist, and that multiple fatigue effects from the same source won't stack, I don't see how it could be all that bad.

Waves of Exhaustion followed by a swift action chained channeled lifetheft, no save unconscious for up to your caster level targets in a 60ft cone with just a standard and swift action? Note that sleep/deep slumber allow for a character to be roused, unconsciousness does not, and both of them have a HD limit AND allow a save.

[prufock]

Waves of Exhaustion followed by a swift action chained channeled lifetheft, no save unconscious for up to your caster level targets in a 60ft cone with just a standard and swift action? Note that sleep/deep slumber allow for a character to be roused, unconsciousness does not, and both of them have a HD limit AND allow a save.
And at that point I would probably have to throw in a saving throw for the stacked sleep effect. That will now be built into my houserules, thanks.

Actually realized I made a mistake in describing my houserules in the first place. Day 1 and 2 without sleep is automatically fatigued and exhausted, same as if you had slept in armor (I play 3.5 with PF conversions, if it matters). It's only falling asleep after extended periods without rest that grants the save.

[Snowbluff]

You know, Clerics stop sleeping when they have extra spells for Lesser Restoration.

[Crake]

I think there's a precedence set for wisdom damage occuring from lack of sleep in one of the elder evils that causes mass insomnia

Edit: Elder Evils, page 9, Appaling Fecundity


A living creature can go without sleep for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum one). Thereafter it is fatigued, remaining in this state for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifi er (again, minimum one); if it would become fatigued during that time, it is exhausted instead. Each day after that period, the creature takes 1 point of Wisdom damage. If the total Wisdom damage exceeds its Hit Dice, the creature is affected as if by an insanity spell. Once its Wisdom score drops to 0, the creature becomes unconscious but cannot recover lost Wisdom naturally.

You can probably ignore the bit about the wisdom damage exceeding HD = insanity bit though, that's part of the sign in particular. You can probably instead swap the insanity for unconsiousness, so someone with high HD can stay unconscious for longer. Also ignore the bit about if wis drops to 0, the creature cannot recover lost wisdom naturally, also part of the sign.

That said, with that being how it works, lesser restoration is still the way to go for permanent sleep immunity. Removes fatigue and the 1 point of wis damage.