Killing the BBeg Wizard 20.

[Dezea]

Hey guy !

Was wondering if any of you would have advice for us. We are a four people party, with a sorcerer, rogue, fighter and priest. All of us are 16, and we'r just about to enter our last fight with the BBEG lvl 20 wizard. Important fact : We are playing with only the player handbook.

Most likely we'll also face some adds, but we were trying to find some solution on the important topics of "How to kill a lvl 20 wizard wich is prepared for you". We most likely will be able to buff before the fight, but the task still seems quite hard. Furthermore, our DM won't pull punches, and he's a pretty experienced player.

So...Is there some practical and general advice on deelings with those ? I know the answer is likely to be "Be a mage yourself" but...Well, we'r not !

For the specifics : Sorcerer is mainly control focused, with an heavy emphasis on metamagic (Arcane bloodline) and some burst. We were thinking about a contingency to counterspell a Time stop, and then going full control on the adds.

Warrior is the melee powerhouse of the team. He got some incredible stuff and can pull out some serious pewpewing if he got the opportunities. We were expecting a Dim Door from the travel domain priest on turn one, to get him to the wizard.

Priest : Well.....Not your melee type. That one is a 30+ Wisdom caster, with not much alternative beyond it. As said before, we expect him pretty much to taxi the fighter around, spending his spell in between.

Rogue : Well....Died a lot, pretty low on conc, not that much of a heavy hitter too...he's been pretty much the party face and skill monkey for 3 years, and his combat prowess are ... Well. Not THAT great. Still not sure how to use him in the fight most efficiently.

So : Is there anything you see we could do to ease things up ? We'r pretty sure this is gonna be a bloody hard battle, as the mage is prepared and waiting for us, so some tips could help us to even the odds a bit. Also, as we've never seen one before, what is the most likely course of action for a core 20 wizard ?

Thanks a lot, and excuse me for my poor english, ain't my mother tongue ! : )

[Sayt]

You're going to want to hit him with a Dimensional Lock or Anchor first turn so he can't just bail on the fight.


You desperately want to see if you can get your warrior Mind-Buttressing (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArmorDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Mind%20Buttressing ) Armor, so he doesn't get Dominated into turning around and ripping you apart. It's not in the core rulebook, which I assume is what you mean by the 'players handbook'.

You'll want at least one rod of cancellation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/rod-of-cancellation) (It cites UE on the SRD, but it was printed in the CRB first) to deal with any annoying walls of force he throws between you and them, or forcecages. Ideally, each party member having one would be good. Remember, Walls of Force aren't magic items so don't drain the rod.


is there a particular reason you're CRB only? It seems an odd position when there are a two different sites with basically all the printed material available.

[Dezea]

Dimensionnal Anchor & Rod of cancellation are really good idea. I never gave the rod much tought to be honest, wich is sad : o

Sadly anything out of the core rulebook is out. Reason being that we started this scenario with me being the only player with any D&D or pathfinder experience, and we wanted it to be easier for the newcommer. Everyone is quite experienced now, but It would make little sense to get out of core just before the last fight of our characters...

[With a box]

Turn rogue into diplomacer turn him fanatic (helpful if it not allowed)

[Dezea]

Well, despite this being funny, we are all pretty intolerant to lactose ; D

(And that would be so incredibly anti-climatic.)

[Dezea]

Damn, no more advice ? ; O

[BWR]

Antimagic Field.
Get in close and shut everything down.

Planar Ally
Pay a bunch of powerful outsiders to help you in the fight

[Ssalarn]

Just out of curiosity; is this the final fight of Rise of the Runelords? Not going to spoil anything, just trying to see if this is what I think it is.

Without knowing more about the specific options the various party members have it's hard to give really good advice; there can be a huge a difference in what two characters with the same class look like at level 16.

Depending on the mooks the BBEG ends up surrounding himself with, your best bet is probably going to be to drop your fighter-bomb on the BBEG as planned while your casters slam him with dispels. Odds are good that a 20th level BBEG who knows you're coming is going to have things like stoneskin, greater false life, displacement, etc. up to mitigate the amount of damage your beatstick can do, so you want to chew through that fast. If the encounter is what I think it is, you're fighting him in a ritually sealed room and dimensional lock/anchor won't be necessary. Make sure the priest prebuffs as many people as possible with death ward and protection from evil; greater spell immunity is another one that should be cast, probably on the Fighter first and then the Priest.

[Twilightwyrm]

You mentioned the Arcane Bloodline, so should we assume this is a Pathfinder game? Because that opens up some key options, closes down some others, and otherwise gives us an idea of what sorts of tricks the Wizard might have up their sleeve.

Either way, if your party rogue is more the party face type, have him using Use Magic Device for additional spell support, either from wands or scrolls. Even if he doesn't have a super high bonus, it is going to be more effective then him attempting to ping away with a shortbow.

If this is Pathfinder, getting the fighter in close is not a bad option, but Dimension Anchor/Lock will be necessary first, at least to keep him from just teleporting out of reach (even if he would have no intention of teleporting away from the fight itself). Either way, your fighter also needs either some form or flight, or effective ranged combat. Since you mentioned the necessity to teleport him in close, I'm going to assume he does not have the latter option. If this is Pathfinder though, that will ensure many of the Wizard's common "I make myself immune to weapons" tricks are off the table. Also, a Necklace of Protection from Evil would not go amiss.

The Sorcerer should do what they do best: battlefield control. If you can, have them target the Wizard's Fort save, since that is most likely to be the weakest. Your Priest should also probably cast Deathward on them before the fight, so the Wizard doesn't get any funny ideas about trying the same thing. Finally, the Sorcerer should have some sort of Teleportation or quick retreat magic available, in case the fight turns against you guys.

The Priest (assuming you mean Cleric, and not the Priest 3rd party class) should, prior to the fight, be gaining extra minions by way of Planar Ally. Realistically, since this is going to be the ultimate battle of the campaign, don't sweat too much about using your money and resources to court the favor of extradimensional forces. When the actual fight happens, the Cleric should provide Deathward, Protection from Evil and any other necessary buffs prior to the fight, have Dispel Magic prepared to negated buffs the Wizard might have or counter his spells. For damaging and offensive spells, try and focus on those that target Fortitude or touch AC. Target Reflex as a secondary priority, and avoid targeting Will.

[skypse]

If we knew what spells the Sorceror has and in general what class features your party has it would be easier. Also we need to know your magical items.

As a general concept however, Mind Blank can be really useful both to counter divination AND to give a +8 resistance bonus on the fighter's saves so it will be harder to get dominated and kick your asses. Control Spells like Obscuring Mist and Greater Invisibility on the Rogue can really help your situation.

Try using the sorcerer's and cleric's scrying spells in order to ask help from the Gods in the form of sacred bonuses or try and figure out what spells the wizard has prepared for the specific day.

Most BBEGs wizards use Arcane Bond feature for an item instead of familiar and it usually is their weapon (most probably a flying, flaming, returning sh1t of something). Have your fighter use Sunder on it or Disarm on the wizard.

Use Dominate Person/Magic Jar to get rid of the wizard's puppets (if any).

Use True Seeing on the fighter to counter wizard's probable invisibility/blur.

If your fighter has high CMD against grapple, put down black tentacles around the wizard to help preventing him from moving around. Break his arms/choke him with the first chance to prevent him from casting.

Finally, Summon Monster VIII for a couple of Elder Air Elementals in order to mess up his attemps to fly/levitate and to help the fighter with general damage output.

Of course Dispel Magic and Anti-Magic Field will always be your friends.

P.S. Clone the cleric so he can ressurect you in case you all fail and die.

[Dezea]

Thanks ! That's a lot of great ouptut we have here : o

So, to answer some of the question :

- This is a house-made campaign (Wich, as 99% of the house made campaign, end with a big bad wizard set on world destruction.)
- This is pathfinder
- The sorcerer is kind of a god wizard, we some pewpew added. His main strat is usually to start the turn with an aoe control and a quicken eneveration on the bbeg, repeating this cycle as nauseam.
- The rogue does have a sky-is-the-limit UMD score. Tho the payer is quite saddened at the idea of spending the fight away from...the fight, pewpewing with wand. (Even if it's likely to be more effective...)

Btw, does death wards stacks with greater heroism ? We were pretty set on sending out the fighter with a ring of couterspelling set on a Dominate Person, Mind Blanked, Protected from evil and greater heroism. Is there any other way to boost his save ?

I would doubt btw that this wizard got low constitution...I'm pretty sure he is sitting at around 30 conc, at least. Is there any good reflex save or suck in PF ?

Thanks a lot !

[skypse]

20 lvl wizard with 30+CON? what is this 500 point buy system or did your DM spent 2mil gold on magic items so he went and bought belt of physical perfection +6 AND used 30 wishes to get ALL his stats up? If that wizard is less than 1000 years old, something is really wrong there :D Your characters aren't optimized but the encounters are?

Anyway, Heroism and Death Ward don't stuck. They are both Morale Bonuses. However, if he is expecting you, you should try and fool him into wasting his time stop because if he get prepared and manages to get up on the air it will be really difficult for your fighter to get to him (however the elementals will be able to send him down again)

[incarnate236]

20 lvl wizard with 30+CON? what is this 500 point buy system or did your DM spent 2mil gold on magic items so he went and bought belt of physical perfection +6 AND used 30 wishes to get ALL his stats up? If that wizard is less than 1000 years old, something is really wrong there :D Your characters aren't optimized but the encounters are?

Anyway, Heroism and Death Ward don't stuck. They are both Morale Bonuses. However, if he is expecting you, you should try and fool him into wasting his time stop because if he get prepared and manages to get up on the air it will be really difficult for your fighter to get to him (however the elementals will be able to send him down again)

This is a pretty common thing I've noticed in PF Modules. Monsters and NPC's with Epic Array or better but we were stuck with crap rolls. My DM also told us not to optimize on purpose just to add to the fun.

[incarnate236]

For OP I suggest teleport rogue and warrior into combat. Don Anti-Magic belt. Enjoy.

[Dezea]

Well, that wizard is likely Half Fiend, and we already know that he wished his stats into some +5. I have no certainty about a physical perfection belt, but it would make sense. (And a Lvl 20 pathfinder WBL is over 800k : /)

What would you guy do if you were the wizard and won initiative against our group btw ?

[With a box]

summon/call 13 Pit Fiends and let them burn you guys :smalltongue:

[Dezea]

summon/call 13 Pit Fiends and let them burn you guys :smalltongue:

Well, that would sadden me *-*

[skypse]

1) Time stop, Summon 3 times what the previous guy said, Create Major Item to make an Iron Throne, quicken create food/water, Entertain myself while you guys try to save your lives.

2) Time stop, draw mustaches on your faces, Plane shift away.

3) Time stop, Use "True Name" to bring forth Cthulu, Plane shift away.

[Dezea]

1) Time stop, Summon 3 times what the previous guy said, Create Major Item to make an Iron Throne, quicken create food/water, Entertain myself while you guys try to save your lives.

2) Time stop, draw mustaches on your faces, Plane shift away.

3) Time stop, Use "True Name" to bring forth Cthulu, Plane shift away.

Comon, no one would be evil enough to draw moustache on the face of someone during a time stop. No one.

[skypse]

Comon, no one would be evil enough to draw moustache on the face of someone during a time stop. No one.

Oh I'm all about that my friend!! Drawing moustaches during timestop n' chewing gum.. And I'm all out of gum!

[AnonymousPepper]

Get some scrolls of Disjunction for your caster.

Trust me on this.

Then have somebody fast cast Silence or AMF or something on themselves and have them just walk right up to the wizard and do not let him escape. Silence would actually probably be preferable, since the Disjunction will nuke the wizard's buffs anyway, and this way you can Haste the guy whose job it is to just keep the wizard from casting.

[ericgrau]

Silence pebble carried by the melee or the priest. If you can pick up the silent spell feat or a rod of silence for the ddoors that would be helpful. Also if it's outdoors or maybe even with a high ceiling the priest and warrior better be buffed with air walk, fly, or a couple of flight magic items. Prepare invisibility purge just in case of greater invisibility too, though also point out that it's only a DC 20 listen check to find out what square a spell verbal component is coming from. Then glitterdust will be handy, heightened if the sorc can. The priest should also have greater dispel magic, perhaps silent greater dispel magic, in case the wizard does get time stop buffs. As a rule of thumb 3 or more buffs are worth dispelling, while less aren't really worth it. You'll be lucky to break his caster level on 1 and even then it's just a buff not something that will determine the fight.

The rogue should probably pick up a ranged weapon with high damage magic arrows. Probably bane arrows of the wizard's race, if not additional enchants. Then ready actions to disrupt casting. Anything you can do to trade actions with the weakest guy on your team and the strongest guy on their team is well worth it. If he casts wind wall or some such, that's a spent action too and well worth it. Remember most of the fight will be resolved in about 3 rounds. Also make sure the arrows are adamantine, because a PHB wizard might buff with stoneskin. The rogue and maybe others should also carry 2-3 doses of dust of appearance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofAppearance). It'll negate blur, displacement, mirror image, invisibility and other illusions. You might use glitterdust or invisiblity purge instead, but it doesn't hurt to have more people with that ability. And the dust is more versatile than invisibility purge. Plus the rogue has a better listen modifier to make the DC 20. Or even to find the square of a wizard sneaking around (move silently + 20).

You should carry dust of disappearance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofDisappearance) because it's amazing for any BBEG. Gives the whole party greater invisibility. Close to broken compared to other core options since it thwarts see invisibility and true seeing. And the wizard's listen check is going to be cruddy. Though I suppose the price tag and duration makes more great than broken. Limits it to BBEG fights where you prepare. But this is a BBEG fight and you can prepare. So use it. Also good for the rogue to carry to blow his action rather than someone else's. Because of the limited duration you might want 2-3 in case the fight gets broken into segments. Note that the only thing that can break it is dust of appearance, so don't accidentally screw yourself.

Since it's a BBEG with minions expect him to be played smart but not a user of forum TO. Cover the major spells that might come up. Sounds like you don't have to worry about cheese.

[Dezea]

Silence pebble carried by the melee or the priest. If you can pick up the silent spell feat or a rod of silence for the ddoors that would be helpful. Also if it's outdoors or maybe even with a high ceiling the priest and warrior better be buffed with air walk, fly, or a couple of flight magic items. Prepare invisibility purge just in case of greater invisibility too, though also point out that it's only a DC 20 listen check to find out what square a spell verbal component is coming from. Then glitterdust will be handy, heightened if the sorc can. The priest should also have greater dispel magic, perhaps silent greater dispel magic, in case the wizard does get time stop buffs. As a rule of thumb 3 or more buffs are worth dispelling, while less aren't really worth it. You'll be lucky to break his caster level on 1 and even then it's just a buff not something that will determine the fight.

The rogue should probably pick up a ranged weapon with high damage magic arrows. Probably bane arrows of the wizard's race, if not additional enchants. Then ready actions to disrupt casting. Anything you can do to trade actions with the weakest guy on your team and the strongest guy on their team is well worth it. If he casts wind wall or some such, that's a spent action too and well worth it. Remember most of the fight will be resolved in about 3 rounds. Also make sure the arrows are adamantine, because a PHB wizard might buff with stoneskin. The rogue and maybe others should also carry 2-3 doses of dust of appearance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofAppearance). It'll negate blur, displacement, mirror image, invisibility and other illusions. You might use glitterdust or invisiblity purge instead, but it doesn't hurt to have more people with that ability. And the dust is more versatile than invisibility purge. Plus the rogue has a better listen modifier to make the DC 20. Or even to find the square of a wizard sneaking around (move silently + 20).

You should carry dust of disappearance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofDisappearance) because it's amazing for any BBEG. Gives the whole party greater invisibility. Close to broken compared to other core options since it thwarts see invisibility and true seeing. And the wizard's listen check is going to be cruddy. Though I suppose the price tag and duration makes more great than broken. Limits it to BBEG fights where you prepare. But this is a BBEG fight and you can prepare. So use it. Also good for the rogue to carry to blow his action rather than someone else's. Because of the limited duration you might want 2-3 in case the fight gets broken into segments. Note that the only thing that can break it is dust of appearance, so don't accidentally screw yourself.

Since it's a BBEG with minions expect him to be played smart but not a user of forum TO. Cover the major spells that might come up. Sounds like you don't have to worry about cheese.

Really solid baseline here. I particulary like the fact to try to trade rogue action for wizard action. It's pretty funny since I prolly always tried to do it, but I never put word on it. Strong advice, here.

For the more "practical" trick, we are playing pathfinder, does those items exist too ?

Btw : Would this be considered bad manner to use the silent rock trick ? A no-save silence with a 3 lvl spell on a wizard seems a bit cheesy : o

[With a box]

One thing you needed to cheak here:
Is that really BBEG? Not ice assassin or astral projection of him?
If he start useing demiplane... I don't think he can die except in tippyverse.

[Dezea]

One thing you needed to cheak here:
Is that really BBEG? Not ice assassin or astral projection of him?
If he start useing demiplane... I don't think he can die except in tippyverse.

Well, sadly i'm afraid we don't have any way to check...(Or do we ?)

But I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the DM is set on a very hard but "Fair" game. Ie : No "SURPRISE IT WAS MY CLONE-NO-JUTSU YOU KILLED".

[skypse]

Well, sadly i'm afraid we don't have any way to check...(Or do we ?)

But I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the DM is set on a very hard but "Fair" game. Ie : No "SURPRISE IT WAS MY CLONE-NO-JUTSU YOU KILLED".

Commune solves problems like that so you do have a way to know.

[AnonymousPepper]

Commune does in fact solve that problem. The solution to stupid wizard tricks is to win the fight before the rocket tag starts with divinations of various types.

Again, seriously, though, grab some Disjunctions. I wanted to repeat that again because it didn't get acknowledged, but it's super, super important for killing any contingencies and pre-existing buffs she might have. Buy. A scroll. Of Disjunction. Or two, or twelve.

[skypse]

It is true that the disjunction scrolls are gonna be handy but I doubt they will beat the specific wizard's will save. I mean if the OP says that even fort target spells are hard because that guy will have about 30+ CON, I imagine targeting his Will will be more or less useless. Otherwise they would just spam touch of idiocy until the Wizard starts sucking his thumb.

[Dezea]

It is true that the disjunction scrolls are gonna be handy but I doubt they will beat the specific wizard's will save. I mean if the OP says that even fort target spells are hard because that guy will have about 30+ CON, I imagine targeting his Will will be more or less useless. Otherwise they would just spam touch of idiocy until the Wizard starts sucking his thumb.

Yeah, I always forgot using divination spells. Nice idea.

As for Disjonction...the dc will be 19 then, and i'm afraid his will save will be in the high low twenty. At least, 12 for being lvl 20+5 for the cloak + Wis Modifier + buff, it's at least a 17, but planning around 20 seems safe, no ?

(Wich sadden me a lot, since I could never use it in DD for fear of destroying the loot, and I still son't be able to use one in pathfinder.)

Btw : Does touch of idiocy stack ? To my knowledge it didn't. (Tho i was planning on quickcasting a Feeblemind each turn)

[Zubrowka74]

How about polymorphing the rogues into a chimera? I know it's not as potent in PF of the character ain't build for it but you could add Greater Heroism or such.

[RoboEmperor]

1. Buy/craft a dust of sneezing and choking. You only need someone with poison and craft wondrous item.
2. Use telekinesis to set it off on the wizard
3. He is now stunned for 11 rounds on average.

If you don't want to be cheesy...
If a fight's too hard I usually planar bind a couple of demons, and win the check by promising a share of the loot.

Killing a wizard is really hard because his contingency: teleport will make him almost unkillable.

He's got an insane number of tricks like maze, time stop, prismatic walls, etc.

If he starts gating stuff in, then gg.

The only thing you have that he doesn't is
1. You can prepare for the encounter
2. You have way more actions than he does. If he doesn't have buffs up then you can totally kill him. He can only maze one of you, or gate one guy in at a time, so just park your asses around him for attacks of opportunity.
3. Save or dies. If he is a normal wizard he is extremely susceptible to finger of death, and I highly doubt he has spell turning
4. GREATER DISPEL MAGIC! For counter spelling, and for dispelling his defenses, though since you have the disadvantage in CL, I'd just focus on dispelling his defenses. A wizard without buffs is just a thin stick, waiting to be stepped on and broken.

[ericgrau]

Btw : Would this be considered bad manner to use the silent rock trick ? A no-save silence with a 3 lvl spell on a wizard seems a bit cheesy : o
No it's a really common and expected trick ever since 2e where it's been the go-to magic counter. Also made it into video games. Or silence on an ally, or silence on a point in space. The counter is for him to move out of the area. I believe the spell was intended to have no save when used in this limited way. Lets you get clever with how you keep him inside the area.

[skypse]

Yeah, I always forgot using divination spells. Nice idea.

As for Disjonction...the dc will be 19 then, and i'm afraid his will save will be in the high low twenty. At least, 12 for being lvl 20+5 for the cloak + Wis Modifier + buff, it's at least a 17, but planning around 20 seems safe, no ?

(Wich sadden me a lot, since I could never use it in DD for fear of destroying the loot, and I still son't be able to use one in pathfinder.)

Btw : Does touch of idiocy stack ? To my knowledge it didn't. (Tho i was planning on quickcasting a Feeblemind each turn)
With a touch, you reduce the target's mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can't reduce any of these scores below 1.

This spell's effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Can't see anything by RAW that suggests it doesn't stuck. However it is mind-affecting (as is feeblemind) effect and there is a good chance that he is immune to things like that since he is the final boss. However, a maximized empowered ToI could result in a -7 to a -9 ability score for a 7th spell slot and since it is no-save you can target his wisdom in order to completely render his Will save useless, then Disjunction. Of course, IF he is subject to mind-affecting sh1t, you can always hit directly his INT too for the same amount. Btw you can also ask about his immunities from the Commune so this will be cleared out pretty fast.


1. Buy/craft a dust of sneezing and choking. You only need someone with poison and craft wondrous item.
2. Use telekinesis to set it off on the wizard
3. He is now stunned for 11 rounds on average.
Hold my breath, cast gust of wind on the dust, breathe again.


Killing a wizard is really hard because his contingency: teleport will make him almost unkillable.



1. You can prepare for the encounter
He can use/already has used scry on them too.

2. You have way more actions than he does. If he doesn't have buffs up then you can totally kill him. He can only maze one of you, or gate one guy in at a time, so just park your asses around him for attacks of opportunity.
He is 20 level. Means he has Time Stop. Means he has more than 1 action to get ready even in the remote case that he isn't already buffed up due to aforementioned scrying. Plus he will have some meat shields around in the form of some kind of Dragons or Huge undead or something bulky in general just to buy time/use them as minions for battlefield control.

3. Save or dies. If he is a normal wizard he is extremely susceptible to finger of death, and I highly doubt he has spell turning
True. however OP already declined Fort save targets since he believes his CON is over 30. I also believe that a BBEG would be immune to luck-based effects like save or die or in general death effects. Plus, Deathward.

4. GREATER DISPEL MAGIC! For counter spelling, and for dispelling his defenses, though since you have the disadvantage in CL, I'd just focus on dispelling his defenses. A wizard without buffs is just a thin stick, waiting to be stepped on and broken.
+1



P.S. Now that I come to think of it, wouldn't be REALLY funny if the BBEG uses Disjunction on YOU after Time stop??? Dude you are sooooo fcked if your DM reads these forums! :D

P.S.2 If I were you, I would cast permanent silence on 100 rocks, then clone the fighter, let the fighter enter the room and just throw rocks around until he dies. He would fit around 3 rocks in his hand so if he survives for 3 rounds he will have thrown around the field 9 rocks. After he raises on his clone, greater restoration from the cleric and burst in the room all together. Only this time you all throw rocks around like crazy bitches. There is no way he will be able to escape after this, and no chance that he will try to escape before or even bother doing anything at all just because a bunch of crazy idiots are running around throwing rocks, posing no actual threat to anything!!!

[RoboEmperor]

Hold my breath, cast gust of wind on the dust, breathe again.


Killing a wizard is really hard because his contingency: teleport will make him almost unkillable.

...

He can use/already has used scry on them too.


How can a wizard cast a spell while holding his breath? Are you telling me this guy just randomly memorizes a silent gust of wind?

You can also shield yourself from scrying, and there is nothing the wizard can do to eliminate it.

Of course, if there are dragons, they can just blow the dust away, but I don't think a wizard who didn't scry the crafting of the dust would react in time to hold his breath, especially since that dust has no save. Oh and the dust affects dragons too, with no save.

But if there are dragons in the fight then... wow, what a tough fight o_o. Hopefully he doesn't have any high level cleric spells!

[With a box]

I will have (and my wizard already have when I don't need to battle)
Contigent teleport : when I roll initiative
It's an ultimate runaway card
Can you counter this?

[Abd al-Azrad]

Do note that, for the Silence spam trick, it is such an effective and low-cost tactic that a well prepared caster ought to have some contingency in place for it. For example, a Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell with which to pop a Dimension Door or other form of escape spell.

It's not to say it's a bad tactic, you just need to plan for pinning down your quarry after you deploy your anti-mage attack. Dimensional Anchor + Silence takes away a lot of options. Dimensional Anchor + Silence + Grapple even more so.

[RoboEmperor]

I will have (and my wizard already have when I don't need to battle)
Contigent teleport : when I roll initiative
It's an ultimate runaway card
Can you counter this?

Cast dimensional lock before you enter the room with the wizard? And hope the room is smaller than 400*31.4 squares? XD

Obviously this BBEG wizard ain't a coward, and is trying to kill the guys.

[Abd al-Azrad]

I will have (and my wizard already have when I don't need to battle)
Contigent teleport : when I roll initiative
It's an ultimate runaway card
Can you counter this?

This is a terribly metagamed contingency. What condition does your Wizard experience to trigger the Contingency? Rolling initiative is not an in-world effect, it is a mechanic to describe the functions of the world. A DM could easily counter this by simply ruling all future interactions trigger Initiative rolls, regardless of whether they are combat, noncombat, or even passively observing landscape. A player could counter this by deploying random goons to startle you with loud shouts.

Granted, you could easily enough replicate the effect with a different Contingency condition, such as "if I gasp" or "if I take any damage." It makes you a pretty ineffective combat wizard, however - I've lost party members to such Contingencies because they disappeared from critical combats when exposed to minor threats.

[Endarire]

I'm not sure what your party can do, nor what your opposition can do, but this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3821.) provides a start for beating high-level Wizards.

And this one (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4209.0).

[With a box]

This is a terribly metagamed contingency. What condition does your Wizard experience to trigger the Contingency? Rolling initiative is not an in-world effect, it is a mechanic to describe the functions of the world. A DM could easily counter this by simply ruling all future interactions trigger Initiative rolls, regardless of whether they are combat, noncombat, or even passively observing landscape. A player could counter this by deploying random goons to startle you with loud shouts.

Granted, you could easily enough replicate the effect with a different Contingency condition, such as "if I gasp" or "if I take any damage." It makes you a pretty ineffective combat wizard, however - I've lost party members to such Contingencies because they disappeared from critical combats when exposed to minor threats.

How he can cast NERVESKITTER if he can't know when he roll initiative?

[animewatcha]

An even better question.. Has the pathfinder tag been noticed? Which makes things like the 3.5 d20srd not as relevant. Same goes with some of these spells suggested.

[Endarire]

Again, the point of my previous post was to provide a starting point for the people playing, not necessarily to dictate their actions. Some things from 3.5 require updating or reinterpretation before inclusion, and the PCs should get their DM's permission before playing with anything outside the established OK rules.

[skypse]

How can a wizard cast a spell while holding his breath? Are you telling me this guy just randomly memorizes a silent gust of wind?

You can also shield yourself from scrying, and there is nothing the wizard can do to eliminate it.

Of course, if there are dragons, they can just blow the dust away, but I don't think a wizard who didn't scry the crafting of the dust would react in time to hold his breath, especially since that dust has no save. Oh and the dust affects dragons too, with no save.

But if there are dragons in the fight then... wow, what a tough fight o_o. Hopefully he doesn't have any high level cleric spells!

Lol!!! Life mechanics I guess! Except if you have found a way to breathe IN while you speak/shout/cast spell. Since we all can do that with the little air we have in our lungs from normal breathing procedure every day, there is no reason why he can't use that remaining air to shout something and get the dust away... Plus, it's freaking dust! How are you supposed to sprinkle the BBEG like Tinkerbell if you don't go near him?

Is this theoretical? OP didn't mention anything like non-detection or any other kind of divination countering techniques to be running on them right now. Which means that even if they do apply them now, the BBEG already has a good idea what they are doing/thinking. (I am not saying don't use divination counter techniques. DO use them).

Sarcasm? I guess you missed to "meat shields" part of my sentence right?

[Garktz]

Use "The all mighty Rock Pet Trick"
That means, dimensional anchor on the permanency silence and animated rock that will follow the BBEG from round 1 till someone dies, is a good way to aproach "non optimiced enemy casters"

[RoboEmperor]

Plus, it's freaking dust! How are you supposed to sprinkle the BBEG like Tinkerbell if you don't go near him?

It's a cursed dust of appearance, so upon usage it spreads out instantly like an explosion. I guess you missed my statement about using telekinesis to land it. It's supposed to trick you into thinking it's a dust of appearance and then get royally screwed over but no reason why you can't smash the bag in the guy's face or the dragon's face with a telekinesis. Contingency: Dimension door is like the only way to dodge this, and it's hard to setup the triggering conditions perfectly without scrying.

You can't hold your breath because there's no save. Otherwise it'd be like "Reflex save to hold your breath in time."

OP didn't mention anything about the wizard scrying either. And you could always scry shield first before you attempt to craft or buy the cursed dust.

OP also didn't mention any meat shields, or dragons. I don't know where you got this from, but it doesn't matter. Dragons can't save against the dust of sneezing and choking either unless he too has a contingency.

It's a very cheesy tactic, but if OP is ok with that then this is the i-win button.

Reading the other posts, I give my vote to the summoning 13 pit fiends :). You just have to deal with their vengeance attempts or pay them each using planar ally as a guideline.

[skypse]

It's a cursed dust of appearance, so upon usage it spreads out instantly like an explosion. I guess you missed my statement about using telekinesis to land it. It's supposed to trick you into thinking it's a dust of appearance and then get royally screwed over but no reason why you can't smash the bag in the guy's face or the dragon's face with a telekinesis. Contingency: Dimension door is like the only way to dodge this, and it's hard to setup the triggering conditions perfectly without scrying.

Oh look! A flying cloud of dust/bag of something is coming near me with noone moving it. Well for sure it can't be magic so why not bathe in it? It would totally make me look like Edward in Twilight! OMG I love this movie. After my dustbath I'm totally going to watch all 4 of them again! TWILIGHT MARATHON EVERYONE! YEAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



OP didn't mention anything about the wizard scrying either. And you could always scry shield first before you attempt to craft or buy the cursed dust.

OP also didn't mention any meat shields, or dragons. I don't know where you got this from, but it doesn't matter. Dragons can't save against the dust of sneezing and choking either unless he too has a contingency.
OP mentioned nothing of this because he has no idea what he could come up against in that room and that's the whole point of this entire post.

[RoboEmperor]

Oh look! A flying cloud of dust/bag of something is coming near me with noone moving it. Well for sure it can't be magic so why not bathe in it? It would totally make me look like Edward in Twilight! OMG I love this movie. After my dustbath I'm totally going to watch all 4 of them again! TWILIGHT MARATHON EVERYONE! YEAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can't dodge the bag like how you can't dodge a touch attack from a telekinesis spell unless you got the AC for it. Read up telekinesis :\

[skypse]

You can't dodge the bag like how you can't dodge a touch attack from a telekinesis spell unless you got the AC for it. Read up telekinesis :\

Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).

You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
This what you are talking about right? I hope so because the 2 other forms won't work at all with your example unless you are 20ft away from the BBEG which means that you are subject to the 20ft radius the dust has. So let me get this straight. You want to go in, and use the sorc's BAB+CHA modifier as attack roll bonus to hit the final boss of a campaign. With a bag. I guess you also suggest that the sorc has used a slot to cast true strike on himself or something like that right? Otherwise he will NEVER hit him. And since the bag will fall on the ground I fail to see a logical/physical way in which ANYTHING but the ground is subject to the dust's effect. Could you please elaborate and give me a proper example on how this would work instead of telling me to read spell descriptions?

[Larsen]

Have the Cleric prepare an action to cast an antimagic field when adjacent to the BBEG
Have the fighter prepare an action to grapple the BBEG after the Cleric finished casting antimagic
Have the rogue prepare something

Sorcerer dimension door or other teleportation effect near the BBEG

[RoboEmperor]

This what you are talking about right? I hope so because the 2 other forms won't work at all with...

You're coming off a bit too hostile for my comfort o_o. I don't like it D:

First, you don't need to target the wizard, just the ground he's standing on

Second, if your DM doesn't allow you to target the ground for some unknown reason, unlike many knives and stuff, this just needs a touch attack, because even if it hits armor it'll work.

Third, if your DM is a RAW stickler, there are rules on what happens on a miss, as per miss thrown weapons rule in PHB 158, and most of the results are in your favor.

If you don't want to allow this then that's totally fine, because it is a really cheap strat that the developers didn't count on, and effectively makes every BBEG encounter a joke since level 1 since it only costs 2400gp. My DM doesn't allow it, won't let me craft it, and I don't even want to use it because it breaks the game. Having said that, if you really, really have to win, this is an option, just like all the other abuses in the game.

It's no different than telekinesis-ing two bags of holding completely filled out with holy water and dumping it on a viable target for 1500d6 damage, no save.

Both tactics were not thought of by me, and was provided to me by the nice people on this forum :)

[ericgrau]

It's an NPC final fight. He'll be trying to kill the PCs and even with a game-savy DM he might not even have a contingent ddoor away. Even if he does then picking the wrong trigger, and it is in fact a guessing game, means he pops away too early and you roll over his minions and any plans he might have set up. Pop away too late and he might be anchored. Scried and prepared for 1,000 eventualities? Not gonna happen if your DM has any kind of life at all.


With a touch, you reduce the target's mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can't reduce any of these scores below 1.

This spell's effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Can't see anything by RAW that suggests it doesn't stuck. However it is mind-affecting (as is feeblemind) effect and there is a good chance that he is immune to things like that since he is the final boss. However, a maximized empowered ToI could result in a -7 to a -9 ability score for a 7th spell slot and since it is no-save you can target his wisdom in order to completely render his Will save useless, then Disjunction. Of course, IF he is subject to mind-affecting sh1t, you can always hit directly his INT too for the same amount. Btw you can also ask about his immunities from the Commune so this will be cleared out pretty fast.
Touch of idiocy is a penalty so it doesn't stack. And mind blank is a common buff. And even empowered 1d6x1.5 is only about -6 int. Plus you waste a round. I wouldn't bother.

If you spam fill the room with silence rocks it also takes out your sorcerer and priest. And it has a limited duration so you probably can't make many ahead of time, and it takes away from your other buffs. I'd just make 1 rock, maybe 2, and use it smartly.

Or basically, pull a couple tricks and buffs, stop his escape, but mainly try to hit the wizard until he's dead like any other BBEG fight. Nobody has time to make a giantitp forum wizard IRL.