[3.5] How to get better Ability Scores?

[CafeWoof]

So I'm training to be a DM for a group of mine, and I had a question. And I apologize if this isn't the right place to post this, but how is it that you get more ability scores? Meaning, in what ways can you get more than your bases?

I always see charts for things like bonus spells or power points depending on what the score for your key ability is. So for instance, you get 54 bonus power points for having a key ability score of 34-35. How is it possible that you can actually achieve a score of 34-35? Because the only ways I know that scores can actually be altered, are by, obviously, your base scores you built from the beginning, any racial modifiers, and then your point you get every 4 levels.

If someone could help me out and give me some insight, that'd be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Tommy2255]

Magic Items for one thing. Also those magic books or miracles that give inherent bonuses. Also, some classes give bonuses to certain ability scores (for example you can get huge bonuses to strength as a War Hulk). Also, the same chart also applies to npc races, which can sometimes get huge racial bonuses to one or more abilities.

[LentilNinja]

The main way is to use Magic Items, but there are other ways too. Some classes (War Hulk lol) offer bonuses to ability scores, as do some spells temporarily (Divine Power or Tensir's Transformation).

One way I've been toying with is to take the Fiendbinder prestige class. Possession demons can give boosts to each ability score by +4. By controlling them and commanding them to go into your body and give you these boosts, you can gain +4 in every stat (though they dont stack, theres also rules for transformation demons that could give untyped bonuses to strength for transforming your arms as an example)

[CafeWoof]

Magic items meaning gear/equipment? Or items that permanently bring up the score?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Magic items meaning gear/equipment? Or items that permanently bring up the score?

Both. There are items that give up to a +6 enhancement bonus to a stat while worn (headband of intellect, periapt of wisdom, and cloak of charisma for Int/Wis/Cha, since we're talking about casting stats) and items that give up to a +5 inherent (i.e. permanent and nonmagical) bonus to a stat after being used once (tome of clear thought, tome of understanding, and tome of leadership and influence). You can also get the inherent bonuses through wish or miracle spells from party spellcasters, hired casters, bound genies or fiends, etc.

So assuming you start with a +2 racial bonus to your casting stat, a score of 18 base + 2 racial + 5 level-up + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 36 at level 20 is very easy to attain. It's relatively cheap, too, since you should have 760,000gp by level 20 according to the wealth by level guidelines and those two items together cost 173,500gp; spending 20% of your wealth on maxing out the ability score that all your class features are based on is a no-brainer.

[Rubik]

Polymorph Any Object alone can boost your base Int (not including all of those bonuses that stack on top of it) into the 30s without issue.

Metamagicked Awaken spells (cast while Polymorphed into a tree, of course) can boost all of your mental scores rather nicely. If manifested by, say, an ardent with the Natural World mantle and all of the ardent's available ACFs, you can get effectively unlimited mental stats by taking the Metapower (Empower + Awaken) feat and repeatedly Empowering it ad infinitum.

[Calimehter]

There is also the Prodigy template(?) from DMG 2. The LA makes it unattractive for PCs but the lack of CR adjustment makes it work well for NPCs or monsters.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

While the fiend possession has already been mentioned, BoED has a similar albeit inferior channeling system where another creature hosts the celestial.


For spells, outside of the [animal's] [attribute], they tend not to have the prohibitive language about granting bonus spells. As such, using whatever means you have to persist and extend the duration past 24 hours can also get you above the usual limit of 36 at level 20.

[JDL]

There are also age bonuses, up to +3 at venerable to mental stats. It gets prohibitively expensive on your physical stats however, inflicting a -6 to Str, Dex and Con. Usually -1/+1 or -3/+2 are the way to go.

[Extra Anchovies]

There are also age bonuses, up to +3 at venerable to mental stats. It gets prohibitively expensive on your physical stats however, inflicting a -6 to Str, Dex and Con. Usually -1/+1 or -3/+2 are the way to go.

Or be Venerable, get killed, and pay for a Reincarnate. You come back in a young adult body (so no age penalties), but your mental stats are unchanged.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is a surefire way to get inevitables coming for you :smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

That is a surefire way to get inevitables coming for you :smalltongue:

If it has stats, we can kill it. Bring on the walking experience rewards :smallamused:

[torrasque666]

If it has stats, we can kill it. Bring on the walking experience rewards :smallamused: Remember the one's that seek to protect the pantheons? I think once you start slaying armies of inevitables they start coming to kill you in the past.

or a Marut might just do it anyway.

[Rubik]

Remember the one's that seek to protect the pantheons? I think once you start slaying armies of inevitables they start coming to kill you in the past.

or a Marut might just do it anyway.If you're a spellcaster, that's totally unintimidating. It's entirely possible to become retroactively nigh-omnipotent, if you really want to.

[torrasque666]

If you're a spellcaster, that's totally unintimidating. It's entirely possible to become retroactively nigh-omnipotent, if you really want to.
But how far back? Your birth? Your parent's birth? Your grandparents? Wish is entirely up to the GM for something like that, Teleport through Time has a mishap chance to nuke your brain. Most ways of actually managing to go through time are going to get nixed by any competent DM.

[Rubik]

But how far back? Your birth? Your parent's birth? Your grandparents? Wish is entirely up to the GM for something like that, Teleport through Time has a mishap chance to nuke your brain. Most ways of actually managing to go through time are going to get nixed by any competent DM.You could always do what the Borg did in Star Trek: make hiveminded clones and send them to every point since time began.

Which, yes, is actually doable.

[torrasque666]

You could always do what the Borg did in Star Trek: make hiveminded clones and send them to every point since time began.

Which, yes, is actually doable.
And that's possible without Simulacrum/Ice Assassins how?

[Rubik]

And that's possible without Simulacrum/Ice Assassins how?Mindrape and Mind Seed, to name two.

[torrasque666]

Mindrape and Mind Seed, to name two.

Neither of those will create a way for them to react like a hivemind would. A Hivemind is essentially one mind filtered throughout many bodies. Those methods just create a duplicate of the mind and the same mind might react differently in different situations. Just as one cannot always determine how they will react to different stimuli, neither would you be able to predict how they would react. A Hivemind though has one intelligence that makes all the decisions, not many intelligences that might make the same decisions. Not to mention that the amount of time it would take to establish a suitable sized force would be immense. Mind Seed gets wiped if its manifest again during the week of germination. Mindrape is a bit quicker, but when you have to maintain basically all of your entire life it still begins to add up.

[Rubik]

Neither of those will create a way for them to react like a hivemind would. A Hivemind is essentially one mind filtered throughout many bodies. Those methods just create a duplicate of the mind and the same mind might react differently in different situations. Just as one cannot always determine how they will react to different stimuli, neither would you be able to predict how they would react. A Hivemind though has one intelligence that makes all the decisions, not many intelligences that might make the same decisions. Not to mention that the amount of time it would take to establish a suitable sized force would be immense. Mind Seed gets wiped if its manifest again during the week of germination. Mindrape is a bit quicker, but when you have to maintain basically all of your entire life it still begins to add up.In both cases you can create "more yous," which you can then start tossing things on to simulate a hive mind, such as various forms of telepathy and telepathic communication. Plus, you can also travel back to whatever amounts to prehistory, create a ton of clones, use the flowing time demiplane/Astral Projection combo to give you immortality (and enforce certain measures to ensure your body's protection), add clones, and whatnot, and so on. You can always cast Astral Projection, travel back in time, do the demiplane/A.P. combo again to keep a copy of yourself there, then travel back in time again, using your Astrally Projected Astral Projection. Then there're things like the dream of metal for a save game feature.

Lots of fun little contingencies you can put into effect.

[Kazyan]

This is a forum where you ask "How do you get an ability score to 34?" and get answers that proceed to "You should convert all of history into omnipotent hiveminded clones of yourself. How to do this should be fairly obvious."

[Renen]

Dont you just love this forum then? :D

In other news, OP you should really play a few games as a player. If you are asking how to raise ability scores, you might not have enough system mastery to challenge your players, or curb any shenanigans they try to pull, or even provide appropriate encounters.

[Failed Phantasm]

This is a forum where you ask "How do you get an ability score to 34?" and get answers that proceed to "You should convert all of history into omnipotent hiveminded clones of yourself. How to do this should be fairly obvious."


I want to sig that so very, very much. May I?

[Kazyan]

I want to sig that so very, very much. May I?

Go ahead. :smalltongue:

[Kraken]

Here's a good list of ways to increase your intelligence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266107-Cranking-up-int-pre-epic). I'm not aware of any other ways to boost int that are permanent, or able to be kept up around the clock, other than stuff like human paragon, dragon disciple, etc. Human paragon can be okay, but I'm not aware of any other classes that generally are worthwhile for int increases.

[AnonymousPepper]

This needs to be re-stated, since one was briefly mentioned. Besides racial boni, age boni, level boni, class boni, enhancement boni from stat items, and inherent boni from Wish/Miracle or Tomes, there's also templates. There's so many different templates in D&D that can be acquired or inherited, and they're fantastic for giving you that little extra boost to your ability scores, particularly if LA buyoff is in play so that you can afford to go ahead and take non-LA+0 templates. Although you could argue that with Item Familiar they can be viable even without, but that does eat a feat.

Let's use a hypothetical Gray Elf artificer to illustrate everything put together. Except class boni, because I'm having trouble remembering any. Let's call him Nu Gaja - stealing the name from a character I was in a game with because lazy and we need a name.

Nu starts off with a point buy system, dropping an 18 into his Int stat. He applies his +2INT racial modifier (stacks with all other boni) to this, making it a 20. He then makes his character Venerable, adding a +3 age bonus (stacks with all other boni), for 23. After this - because of the wonders of LA buyoff making it viable - he adds on the Spellwarped template, giving, among other things, a +4 bonus to his Intelligence, giving him an INT score of 27 (template bonus; stacks with all other boni). We'll level him up to 20, adding all five of the bonus points from leveling (untyped bonus, I believe) to give him an Intelligence of 32. From here, Nu then crafts a +6 Headband of Vast Intelligence, which gives him a +6 enhancement bonus (stacks with non-enhancement boni) to INT, giving him a total score of 38. Then, Nu crafts a six-charge Staff of Twin Repeat Wish and a six-charge Staff of Wish, casting from the first and then the second staff in succession to each of his stats, including Intelligence, which gives him a +5 inherent bonus to Intelligence. This yields a final ability score of 43.

Granted, Spellwarped is an LA+3 template (which I just used because it was the first +INT template that came to mind), but there are LA+0-LA+2 templates to add most any stat. Especially if Dragon Mag is in play, as I recall.

You can go even further, as I recall, and create non-Enhancement stat boosting items (luck, morale, sacred, profane, competence, insight, and I'm probably missing others [not sure if you can stack sacred and profane though?]), each of which goes up to +6 pre-epic, but you're getting into custom item territory there, and thus one would probably run into a shortage of DM capital becoming a major problem.

Also, once you get into Epic, there are feats that grant untyped ability score boni, and I want to say there are epic spell seeds to do the same.

[atemu1234]

1. Point buy. Most characters in point buy have 1-2 16s in their stats. This is helpful for building characters you like.
1a. Dump constitution and become a necropolitan. This way you have, let's say, a 3 in one stat. That's five bonus points, which is very useful if you're making a well-statted character.
1b. Min-max others if you can, but remember it's better to have a 16 in multiple stats than an 18 in one of them. Let's say you have 32 point-buy. If you have the choice between 10 10 10 12 12 18 and 10 8 8 16 16 16, you're probably going to go with the second one. Why? Because higher overall stats are better than high singular stats. It's better to be good at a few things than good at one and mediocre at everything else.
2. Use items. Items make for expensive but good stat boosters, and will help you on your quest.
2a. Choose continuous magic items first, permanent boosts later. Continuous will be more useful in about 97% of all circumstances.
2aI. Fear the disjunction. Fear it.

[Rubik]

This needs to be re-stated, since one was briefly mentioned. Besides racial boni, age boni, level boni, class boni, enhancement boni from stat items, and inherent boni from Wish/Miracle or Tomes, there's also templates. There's so many different templates in D&D that can be acquired or inherited, and they're fantastic for giving you that little extra boost to your ability scores, particularly if LA buyoff is in play so that you can afford to go ahead and take non-LA+0 templates. Although you could argue that with Item Familiar they can be viable even without, but that does eat a feat.I believe the word you're looking for is bonuses.


2aI. Fear the disjunction. Fear it.There are ways around Disjunction. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331518-Any-better-ways-to-obtain-quot-immunity-quot-to-disjunction) True, you can't use effects such as Spell Immunity, but devices, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, have the same effect as magic items, but are entirely nonmagical, and thus ignore Disjunction. Contingencies for teleportation effects (or Synchronicity/Celerity) when someone casts Disjunction nearby will get you out of Dodge, thus avoiding the effect altogether. Nabbing the ability of a helmed horror to completely ignore the effects of three spells (one of which is, of course, Disjunction) will grant you blanket immunity to it. Rings of spell battle will help you counter any castings of Disjunction nearby.

There are others.

[atemu1234]

2aI1:There are ways around Disjunction. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331518-Any-better-ways-to-obtain-quot-immunity-quot-to-disjunction) True, you can't use effects such as Spell Immunity, but devices, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, have the same effect as magic items, but are entirely nonmagical, and thus ignore Disjunction. Contingencies for teleportation effects (or Synchronicity/Celerity) when someone casts Disjunction nearby will get you out of Dodge, thus avoiding the effect altogether. Nabbing the ability of a helmed horror to completely ignore the effects of three spells (one of which is, of course, Disjunction) will grant you blanket immunity to it. Rings of spell battle will help you counter any castings of Disjunction nearby.

There are others.

Sorry, felt the need to codify that.

[Chronos]

More mention should also be made of spells. Sure, the Cat's Grace etc. spells only give a +4 enhancement bonus, which is completely irrelevant once you've got the corresponding magic items. But there are other spells which give larger enhancement bonuses, or bonuses of other types. For instance, Bite of the Werebear gives a +16 enhancement bonus to strength: It doesn't stack with the bonus from a belt, but it's still a net improvement of +10. Owl's Insight gives an insight bonus to Wis equal to your caster level, with no cap, which can get quite large indeed if you can pump your CL up high enough. Greater Visage of the Deity gives +2 or +4 to all of your stats, and it's untyped, so it stacks with everything. Giant Size gives a whopping +32 size bonus to Str, plus a bit of Con.

[Rubik]

How about effects which replace one ability score with another or add a score to things normally governed by another score? Factotum, for instance, adds +Int to just about everything, whereas the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat can replace +Con to HP with +Int to HP. It's not exactly the same thing, but depending on your purposes for boosting your ability scores, it's identical.