Clever Warrior optimization

[Rolero]

Hi everyone, I am preparing to get into a game and wanted to go back to the roots and play a good'ol fighter. The thing is that I don't what to roll the typical one (you know, big ass weapon warrior and the like), but a smart one, the type that relays in tactics and maneuvers to outsmart and defeat his opponents.

While I know this can depend completely on the player, I wanted to do something that show this mecanically.

So, after taking a look to the fighter archetypes, I found two that can work well with the concept, and even better, they are compatible with one another. They are the Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) and Martial Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) archetypes.

They basically wipe out all the fighter features except the bonus feats, but put on the table some very good tricks:

The first to notice is that we lost medium and heavy armor proficency, as well as shields, so this might have to be a Dex dependtant character. For this we get 2 extra skill point per level that must be expended in Int related skills, perfect for the character concept.
Second, we lose bravery in exchange for combat expertise which is a requisite for all the maneuver feats, and they are a lot of buffs to combat fear, so not a great lose.
Third, no weapon and no armor training, this is a heavier hit, but in exchange we get a progresive bonus to both CMB and CMD, which scales up to a +8 at 15th level. Personally, just this is amazing, but the Martial Master get us extra feats, that can be obtained on the fly as a move action, and scales up to 3 extra feats. Both this features from both archetypes is what blow my mind and I think are the perfect set for the character focus.
Finally, the Lore Warden adds a few more tricks equally good. First, at 7th level, one that gets you a +2 competence bonus to hit a damage to any enemy, as long as you pass a knowledge check about it. Second, at 11th, whenever you get critically hit, you can roll acrobatics, and if your check is greater than the opponent’s confirmation roll, you negate the critical, And third, at 19th, you can automatically confirm a critical each round, which is the very debuffed version of weapon mastery, but well, nothing is perfect.

Overall, versatility is what defines him, and can fit well in any group and in any fighter role.

Now, the tricky part, and the real reason I started to write this. I like the archetypes, I have a sketch of the character background and concept, but I don't have any idea how to build this each level to get him to his full potential.

In rough outlines, the character is a philosophal tactician and legendary blacksmith wannabe. Which can be archived via the Master Craftsman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman---final) feat and the appropiate build.

So here I am, I get to start as 6th level with standar gold, but I would want your help to plan this character with the 20th level goal in mind and its possibilites until that.

I am doubting in the race department:
Dwarfs are the cliche option by default, and having access to the the hardy race trait along with the steel soul feat, gets amazing results in the saving throughs department.
However, I am more inclined to Humans, the extra feat and extra skill point are always welcomed (with this build, 5 feats at 2th level? madness)

Anyways, I'm not asking for a full detailed build up to level 20, but some general ideas and some heavy feedback to get my character ready to start the campaign.

Thanks in advance.

[Sayt]

If your GM allows 3rd party, have you considered the The Warder? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder)

It's an Int based tank, the base version focused on Sword+Board and controlling an area, and there are arcetypes which let you branch into archery, two handed and two weapon fighting.

[Rolero]

If your GM allows 3rd party, have you considered the The Warder? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder)

It's an Int based tank, the base version focused on Sword+Board and controlling an area, and there are arcetypes which let you branch into archery, two handed and two weapon fighting.

I'm afraid not, He wants to stick to the base classes. No 3rd party material allowed and He want us to check with him rare feats or features, before aproval, and we cannot begin with a prestige classes eiter, they have to be earned in play.

I guess He doesn't want to lose the reins of the game from the start of it.

(Thanks for the tip anyways, looked like an interesting idea)

[torrasque666]

We cannot begin with a prestige classes either, they have to be earned in play.
Makes sense. Not as much in pathfinder as opposed to 3.5 but still makes sense, given how many prestige classes have some sort of "Special" requirement.

[Fenryr]

Warder is amazing, yo. Too sad DM wouldn't allow it.

My only suggestion would be Dilettante (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dilettante). Some traits give direct bonus to some Knowledge Skills. Any idea of the fighting style you gonna use? Sword and board, two-handed weapon and such. The style affects a lot the feat tree you gonna use.

[Rolero]

Any idea of the fighting style you gonna use? Sword and board, two-handed weapon and such. The style affects a lot the feat tree you gonna use.

Thats the thing, I cannot picture the character with a defined style, weapons wise. Since He gets bonus to CMB, He could become a very good maneuver specialist. On secundary focus, I think battlefield control and support feats could do him well too. Later, when He can get more than one feat on the fly, He can adapt to any situation with any weapon.
This is the main reason I cannot decide on a feat progresion and wanted some advise about it.

[Fenryr]

Based on damage wise? Two-handed sword. Power Attack and roll 'til you drop. Based on simple builds? Sword and board. Want a challenge? Two Weapon Fighting. You may even mix up to two styles and use 'em according to the situation.

Character concept? I imagine a Fighter reading a book in the middle of the dungeon. When monsters appears he/she gets annoyed for the interruption and puts away the book in his/her bag. Then a Kung Fu pose and a clever line. Unarmed Strike is not a bad idea but you need Improved Unarmed Strike (3.5 or 3rd party PF) to get something beyond d3 on unarmed strikes.

Eh, but that's me. You have the final word.

[Spore]

Based on damage wise? Two-handed sword. Power Attack and roll 'til you drop. Based on simple builds? Sword and board. Want a challenge? Two Weapon Fighting. You may even mix up to two styles and use 'em according to the situation.

Take a Katana or a similar 1.5 hander. Why you ask? You can wield it with two hands when damage is required but you can attack and have a free hand for things like a Steal combat maneuver or other tasks that require a free hand.

Bonus points for any weapon capable of providing a bonus to an often used combat maneuver. I'd say you probably want to have at least one or two "go-to" maneuvers that are not bought with martial versatility.

[Rolero]

Ok, I going to start working with the numbers so we can mod this more easily. I have decided to go with a Human as race in the end.
First, Abilities. 25 point buy:

STR 12
DEX 17 +2 (Human) +1 (4th lv increase)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 8

This is the first draft. What this numbers mean: Sure, this can be optimazed, but I want this guy to be a little more realistic than usual, meaning, I am don't want to dump stats so I can maximaze all that I can. Moreover, as concept goes, this Char is a little MAD (needing decent physical stats, as well as Int)
The idea for his combat options is focus on his Dex, but didn't want to sacrifice Str in exchange, if he has been training all his life, it wouldn't make sense if he had a puny strengh. I think 14 is a very solid number for Con, and in the Int department, 14 as well, plus de bonus skill point, plus human, net us 7 sp per level. Not bad. Another not to dump stat was Wisdom, if only for roleplaying reasons, if this guy is the kind of thinker and philosophal one, he has to be at least above average on this. Finally, the only "dumped" stat, Charisma, represents that this guy is kind of introvert and heavy focused on his training, skiping pointless social interaction.

However, this numbers don't need to be final, I just writed the above to give you insight of how I want to build the guy. However, the Str vs Dex issue must be the greatest decision in this build, so I want the main feedback here, along with reasons to choose one or the other, or go with a medium number on both.

Ok, since is the main focus of the character, lets get to the feats. First, I'm going to list a few candidates and this is where you come in, through as much sugestions as you can:

Agile Maneuvers, Blind fight, Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, In Harm’s Way, Mobility, Combat patrol, Critical focus, Step up, Following step, Step Up and Strike, Improved Initiative, Lunge, Pin Down, Rapid shot, Precise shot, Point-blank shot, Master craftsman, Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

This if what first come to mind. One thing to highligth is that depending on the final abilities numbers, some feat candidates can fit in or not. And on a side note, I read somewhere of a feat that lets you use Dex instead of Str for both hit and damage, does it really exist or am I daydreaming?

Keep one thing in mind, again, this character is no specialist, I want him to focus on battlefield control, the list above is a very good example of this intent.


Take a Katana or a similar 1.5 hander. Why you ask? You can wield it with two hands when damage is required but you can attack and have a free hand for things like a Steal combat maneuver or other tasks that require a free hand.

Bonus points for any weapon capable of providing a bonus to an often used combat maneuver. I'd say you probably want to have at least one or two "go-to" maneuvers that are not bought with martial versatility.

I was picturing the character in a more nordic way, I'm not sure if a katana can fit in (unless I go MacLeod style)
A falcata can be a sustitute, but as I said, I don't see this character favoring any weapon in particular, but choose the one that fits better acording to the situation.

[Fenryr]

Dex to hit? Weapon Finesse. Dex to damage? Deadly Agility from PoW or Agility weapon property.

Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard needs some optimization or focus: traits to increase Aid Another bonus, Benevolence armor property and such things. It is possible and a nice work to do. Up to you.

There is a guide around here called A Brief Guide To Martial Tanking if you are interested in battlefield control.

[Fouredged Sword]

Hrmmm.. Here is what I suggest.

Sentinel. Really, Irori grants +4 to all knowledge checks as the base bonus of his boon. I at least recommend that. and the class features are rather nice. It's full bab, and the abilites are rather nice as it grants a +4 to attack and damage, another +2 to attack and damage on a passed knowledge check, +4 to initiative, and the capstone is Dr 10/chaotic. It also brings back your armor profs as a side effect, allowing you to be in platemail again.

It locks you into unarmed though.

I would at least consider the Deific Obedience feat, if for nothing else than the +4 to all knowledge checks. The exalted boons you get at 12th, 16th and 20th levels are just bonus.

[torrasque666]

I was picturing the character in a more nordic way, I'm not sure if a katana can fit in (unless I go MacLeod style)
A falcata can be a sustitute, but as I said, I don't see this character favoring any weapon in particular, but choose the one that fits better acording to the situation.
Bastard Sword. Unless when you say "Nordic" you mean "Axe fighter". In fact, the Katana's description even says its a refluffed bastard sword.

I think.

[Red Fel]

Are Hybrid Classes on the table? They're not third party, if memory serves, so they might be. If they are, would you consider the Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler)? It's a comfortable hybrid of the Fighter and Monk. You get proficiency with light armor, simple weapons, close weapons and a few others (including the hand axe and short sword, for your Nordic urges); the Monk's unarmed progression, which you can later apply to close weapons; Martial Flexibility, which is awesome; Monk's AC bonus and Fighter's bonus combat feats; Maneuver Training, which grants increasing bonuses to combat maneuvers and CMD of your choice; and some nifty archetypes. In particular, you might be interested in the Winding Path Renegade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo---brawler-archetypes/winding-path-renegade-brawler-archetype); its Mystery of Unbending Iron lets you treat metal weapons and armor as masterwork, gives you the benefits of Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor without having to actually take the feats, and later lets you treat metal weapons as adamantine.

It's a thought, anyways.

[NightbringerGGZ]

If you go human, you can use Martial Versatility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/martial-versatility-combat-human) to apply Weapon Focus / Weapon Specialization feats to multiple weapons. If you want to swap between combat styles, you can specify Brass Knuckles to apply the benefits of these feats to all Monk Weapons and Close Weapons. This would let you Two Weapon Fight with Sword & Board (Shield's are close weapons, pick up a one handed Monk weapon in the other hand). You could just use two monk or close weapons for standard TWF techniques. You could also pick up a weapon like the Temple Sword which can be held in two hands for your standard Two Handed build.

The downside is you'll need to pick up Martial Versatility for Weapon Specialization and the GWF, GWS as well. But, at level 16 you can grab Martial Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/martial-mastery-combat-human) and retrain all of those Martial Versatility feats.

The trick is going to be how do you gain your Combat Maneuver feats? This is where I'd use the Martial Master archetype. You're only start 3 levels away from getting two feats per use, that's an easy way to pick up the Improved and Greater versions of a Maneuver feat chain when you need it.

[Ssalarn]

Thats the thing, I cannot picture the character with a defined style, weapons wise. Since He gets bonus to CMB, He could become a very good maneuver specialist. On secundary focus, I think battlefield control and support feats could do him well too. Later, when He can get more than one feat on the fly, He can adapt to any situation with any weapon.
This is the main reason I cannot decide on a feat progresion and wanted some advise about it.

Since you want him to have control and support options, you probably want to go with a reach weapon. My personal recommendation is the lucerne hammer; aside from being cool and fairly under-utilized, you've got 1d12 base damage (3d6 if you can pop it up a size category with something like the Impact enchantment, reach and brace properties, and a +2 bonus to checks to sunder medium or heavy armor. If you did snag the Impact weapon enchantment, that would let you add the weapon's enhancement bonus to bull rush attempts too, which also helps with the idea of a canny warrior with some control options.

[Rolero]

Dex to hit? Weapon Finesse. Dex to damage? Deadly Agility from PoW or Agility weapon property.

Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard needs some optimization or focus: traits to increase Aid Another bonus, Benevolence armor property and such things. It is possible and a nice work to do. Up to you.

There is a guide around here called A Brief Guide To Martial Tanking if you are interested in battlefield control.

Thanks for the tip ;)

Could you post a link to that guide?


Hrmmm.. Here is what I suggest.

Sentinel. Really, Irori grants +4 to all knowledge checks as the base bonus of his boon. I at least recommend that. and the class features are rather nice. It's full bab, and the abilites are rather nice as it grants a +4 to attack and damage, another +2 to attack and damage on a passed knowledge check, +4 to initiative, and the capstone is Dr 10/chaotic. It also brings back your armor profs as a side effect, allowing you to be in platemail again.

It locks you into unarmed though.

I would at least consider the Deific Obedience feat, if for nothing else than the +4 to all knowledge checks. The exalted boons you get at 12th, 16th and 20th levels are just bonus.

We cannot start with a prestige class. I could earn it in play but while I think is a decent class, I find it too mystic to my liking and focuses too much on weapon specialization.
The feat could be taken in consideration, but I don't think the character really needs it, but I could get it if a have a feat to spare.


Are Hybrid Classes on the table? They're not third party, if memory serves, so they might be. If they are, would you consider the Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler)?

No, they are not. Other player mentioned it (wanted to roll an Arcanist) but the DM won't allow it. He haven't read fully all the new material yet and thinks is kinda overpowered.

We can chose from the core and base classes, along with their archetypes, hence, why I looked for one that I liked (and found two ^^)


If you go human, you can use Martial Versatility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/martial-versatility-combat-human) to apply Weapon Focus / Weapon Specialization feats to multiple weapons. If you want to swap between combat styles, you can specify Brass Knuckles to apply the benefits of these feats to all Monk Weapons and Close Weapons. This would let you Two Weapon Fight with Sword & Board (Shield's are close weapons, pick up a one handed Monk weapon in the other hand). You could just use two monk or close weapons for standard TWF techniques. You could also pick up a weapon like the Temple Sword which can be held in two hands for your standard Two Handed build.

The downside is you'll need to pick up Martial Versatility for Weapon Specialization and the GWF, GWS as well. But, at level 16 you can grab Martial Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/martial-mastery-combat-human) and retrain all of those Martial Versatility feats.

The trick is going to be how do you gain your Combat Maneuver feats? This is where I'd use the Martial Master archetype. You're only start 3 levels away from getting two feats per use, that's an easy way to pick up the Improved and Greater versions of a Maneuver feat chain when you need it.

Umm, I like the idea of the close weapons since this is an agile character, and could combo well with weapon finesse+pirahna strike.

And about the maneuvers, yeah, that's the idea. By level 9, I can get any greater maneuver as a move action. Very cool.


Since you want him to have control and support options, you probably want to go with a reach weapon. My personal recommendation is the lucerne hammer; aside from being cool and fairly under-utilized, you've got 1d12 base damage (3d6 if you can pop it up a size category with something like the Impact enchantment, reach and brace properties, and a +2 bonus to checks to sunder medium or heavy armor. If you did snag the Impact weapon enchantment, that would let you add the weapon's enhancement bonus to bull rush attempts too, which also helps with the idea of a canny warrior with some control options.

Yeah, though about that (although I haven't though on the hammer, not a bad tool)

The way I picture this guy is carrying a pack of different weapons and drawing whatever is better according the situation and the needs of the party. You need to hold a corridor? sword and shield and tank. You want to anoy the enemy with AOO and maneuvers? Get a reach weapon. Some urgent dps needed? swing a claymore into the enemy ass. Flying critters? Bow and arrow. Tavern fight? brass knuckels and bring it.

The strongh point of this char is the ability to get any feat on the fly and get bonuses to maneuvers and hit and damage almost in any situation. That's is why I've been so stubborn on not to specialize him.

What I really want is feat recomendations, and sugestions for the build, so I not spend feats that I may get as a move action when needed, but the ones that is always great to have.

That said, the campaign is scheduled for the following week, and wanted to have the sheet asap, so I can check with my DM with time to make adjustments.

As I said before, We start at 6th level with 16000 po, 25 point buy for abilities and 2 traits.
The only thing that I want for sure is Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor for background reasons. He descends from a clan of renown blacksmiths and he sets off on a jorney to gain real battle experience and perfect his technique. So This feats will ocupy the 5th and 6th level slots.

Apart from that, I am open to sugestions, as long they fit on the concept.

[Fenryr]

Here's the guide. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319607-PF-A-Brief-Guide-to-Martial-Tanking)

[Elricaltovilla]

I've been looking at Lorewarden and Martial Master, I think its a pretty impressive combo and probably the closest Paizo will get to officially publishing a fighter I'd be willing to play.

For a control type build I'd recommend something like armor spikes+guisarm weapon wise. The benefits of this combination are that you get the reach+trip+two handing bonuses for the guisarm and the close range attacks of the armor spikes without having to invest in Two Weapon Fighting feats.

Another great option is a whip or scorpion whip, as it has finesse (for weapon finesse and Agile weapon enchantment), reach, trip and disarm although you need some good feats and a little help from the DM to make it work optimally (whip mastery might not work with scorpion whips although it should). Feats for the whip are weapon focus (whip) whip mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat), improved whip mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-whip-mastery-combat), and greater whip mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-whip-mastery-combat).

Using Martial Flexibility to pick up different Improved/Greater combat maneuver feats is a good idea, it lets you stay flexible and relevant. You might also want to look at feats like Dazzling Display and Disheartening Display to apply fear effects in an area, and shattered defenses to make them flat-footed. I'd probably just take them standard, but Disruptive and Spellbreaker are really useful to have when dealing with casters.

The problem I have with Martial Flexibility is that you're limited to a maximum of 14 uses per day (3+1/2 level+1 from Barroom Brawler) at 20th level, so it's not quite as flexible as I'd hoped, but it definitely offers options the fighter didn't have before. I guess my point with that is that its nice, but don't rely on it to be the solution to all your problems.

[watchwood]

Here's the guide. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319607-PF-A-Brief-Guide-to-Martial-Tanking)

The fact that I'm finally seeing other people post links to my guide fills me with joy. :D

[Rolero]

The fact that I'm finally seeing other people post links to my guide fills me with joy. :D

And for good reason. You gave some good ideas, nice job there ;)

[Feint's End]

You forgot 2 attribute points. Currently only 23 spent. I recommend leaving charisma at 10 or dumping it further and increasing dex to a base of 18 (which will net you 36 dex in the long run as opposed to the current maximum of 35).

[Rolero]

I've been looking at Lorewarden and Martial Master, I think its a pretty impressive combo and probably the closest Paizo will get to officially publishing a fighter I'd be willing to play.

For a control type build I'd recommend something like armor spikes+guisarm weapon wise. The benefits of this combination are that you get the reach+trip+two handing bonuses for the guisarm and the close range attacks of the armor spikes without having to invest in Two Weapon Fighting feats.

Another great option is a whip or scorpion whip, as it has finesse (for weapon finesse and Agile weapon enchantment), reach, trip and disarm although you need some good feats and a little help from the DM to make it work optimally (whip mastery might not work with scorpion whips although it should). Feats for the whip are weapon focus (whip) whip mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat), improved whip mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-whip-mastery-combat), and greater whip mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-whip-mastery-combat).

Using Martial Flexibility to pick up different Improved/Greater combat maneuver feats is a good idea, it lets you stay flexible and relevant. You might also want to look at feats like Dazzling Display and Disheartening Display to apply fear effects in an area, and shattered defenses to make them flat-footed. I'd probably just take them standard, but Disruptive and Spellbreaker are really useful to have when dealing with casters.

The problem I have with Martial Flexibility is that you're limited to a maximum of 14 uses per day (3+1/2 level+1 from Barroom Brawler) at 20th level, so it's not quite as flexible as I'd hoped, but it definitely offers options the fighter didn't have before. I guess my point with that is that its nice, but don't rely on it to be the solution to all your problems.

While it wasn't what I had in mind, certanly, the scorpion whip offers very good options, although it requires a heavy feat investment (4 in total) But it could be quite funny to threaten an area up to 35 ft (15 base x2 if enlarged + lunge) Add some crowd control feats and maneuvers, and you have an anoying tank ^^