Counterspell Question.

[Atmosk]

Counter spell requires you make an ability check using your spell casting ability to interrupt the casting of a spell. I assume that you'd get your ability modifier for this check? Also is it possible to gain proficiency or inspiration on this check?

[Justin Sane]

Counter spell requires you make an ability check using your spell casting ability to interrupt the casting of a spell. I assume that you'd get your ability modifier for this check?Correct.
Also is it possible to gain proficiencyDon't think so. However, that means Jack of All Trades applies.
or inspiration on this check?It's an ability check, so Inspiration applies.

[MaxWilson]

Counter spell requires you make an ability check using your spell casting ability to interrupt the casting of a spell. I assume that you'd get your ability modifier for this check? Also is it possible to gain proficiency or inspiration on this check?

Yes, the spell says you get your ability modifier, but you don't usually get your proficiency modifier unless special circumstances apply.

Ways to improve Counterspell include:

* Bardic Inspiration dice
* Peerless Skill from a Lore Bard
* Enhance Ability to get advantage on the check
* Lucky feat
* Jack-of-all-trades for a Bard
* Abjuration wizard gets to add his proficiency bonus
* Tides of Chaos/Bend Luck from a Wild Mage
* Dark One's Own Luck from a Warlock.
* Guidance cantrip
* Help from another party member (if they can think of a way to make this apply--I can't think of any useful kind of help they could offer though)
* Use a spell slot high enough to bypass the ability check completely

That's all I can think of.

-Max

[Frenth Alunril]

Yes, the spell says you get your ability modifier, but you don't usually get your proficiency modifier unless special circumstances apply.

Ways to improve Counterspell include:

* Bardic Inspiration dice
* Peerless Skill from a Lore Bard
* Enhance Ability to get advantage on the check
* Lucky feat
* Jack-of-all-trades for a Bard
* Abjuration wizard gets to add his proficiency bonus
* Tides of Chaos/Bend Luck from a Wild Mage
* Dark One's Own Luck from a Warlock.
* Guidance cantrip
* Help from another party member (if they can think of a way to make this apply--I can't think of any useful kind of help they could offer though)
* Use a spell slot high enough to bypass the ability check completely

That's all I can think of.

-Max

Am I reading this correctly? Lore bard is the best anti-magician?

anti-caster?

Anti-mystic?

Anti-.... Hell, I'm trying to be witty but the man at the bar next to me is rambling on about banks, jobs, social security, his truck, health, boat blah blah...

And he just passed gas...

Why do I hang out in bars?

[Demonic Spoon]

I don't think you can use bardic inspiration on yourself, can you?

[MaxWilson]

I don't think you can use bardic inspiration on yourself, can you?

Correct. Some of the items I listed make Counterspell better on someone else, not yourself, but they all make Counterspell better. E.g. there is nothing wrong with casting Enhance Ability (Intelligence) on the party Abjuror.

[Shadow]

I don't think you can use bardic inspiration on yourself, can you?

Not inherently, no, but that's what Peerless Skill does for a Lore Bard at level 14.


Am I reading this correctly? Lore bard is the best anti-magician?

Until 14th level Abjurers are king with +10 at that moment (+5 prof +5 Int), topping at +11.
They counter 9th level spells with an average d20 roll with no outside help or resources spent other than the 3rd level slot at approximately level 9.

At, say, 13th level, the Lore Bard has +7 possibly with advantage (+2 JoAT, +5 Cha, enhance ability which is not on the Abjurer's list).
At 14th level the Lore Bard has +12.5 average (+5 Cha, +2 JoAT, +5.5 PSd10) with advantage, topping at +13.5 average with advantage.
They counter 9th level spells, possibly using a spell slot for enhance ability, definitely using a BI die, and also using a 3rd level slot, at approximately level 14. Before that an average d20 roll counters 8th level (but it has advantage).

So the Abjurer is strictly better until around 10th level or so.
After that the Bard can start to compete, and even eventually passes him, but it uses a ton of resources to make it reliable like that while the Abjurer simply tosses a spell slot at the enemy and probably wins.
So the Lore Bard can be mathematically better, but he can't do it all day. He needs to concentrate on a spell, and once his BI dice are gone he's no longer superior.
The Abjurer is not only consistent, but has staying power that the Bard lacks. The Bard is still quite good, but the Abjurer is better IMO.

[Talderas]

Until 14th level Abjurers are king with +10 at that moment (+5 prof +5 Int), topping at +11.
They counter 9th level spells with an average d20 roll with no outside help or resources spent other than the 3rd level slot at approximately level 9.

At, say, 13th level, the Lore Bard has +7 possibly with advantage (+2 JoAT, +5 Cha, enhance ability which is not on the Abjurer's list).

From 5-8 the bard will be at +1 JoAT, +5 Cha [20 charisma is easy by this stage] for +6 on the check with advantage. From 9-13 the bard will be at +2 JoAT, +5 Cha for +7 on the check with advantage. Advantage itself can be, if I recall correctly, mathed out to around a +4 or +5 effective bonus so we're really looking at +10-11 for 5-8 and +11-12 for 9-13. That's with only expending the additional resource of one 2nd level spell slot for enhance ability. To follow up with peerless skill at 14 it jumps to to +2 JoAT, +5 Cha, +5.5 BI for +12.5 on the check with advantage for an effective +17-18. At level 15 bardic inspiration jumps to d12 so it's now a +13.5 bonus on the check for a +18-19 with advantage. At 17th level proficiency increases to +6 so it increase another to to a +14.5 bonus for an effective 19-20.



The Abjurer is not only consistent, but has staying power that the Bard lacks. The Bard is still quite good, but the Abjurer is better IMO.

At level 5 the bard regains bardic inspiration dice on short rests, which means if he's a dedicated counterspeller he can counter 5 spells before he loses his huge bonuse, even still he retains the effective +4-5 from advantage.

[Ashrym]

Counterspell isn't on the bard list. Bards also need to add it with secrets.

[Shadow]

At level 5 the bard regains bardic inspiration dice on short rests, which means if he's a dedicated counterspeller he can counter 5 spells before he loses his huge bonuse, even still he retains the effective +4-5 from advantage.

And if he wants to keep advantage (which is the only way that he's competitive with the Abjurer before 14th level) he has to maintain concentration, which means he can't be doing anything else requiring concentration, which is the extreme vast majority of the bard's repertoire.
He can be a great counterspeller or a great bard as he chooses. He can't be both at the same time.
The Abjurer has no such limitations. He's a great counterspeller and a great caster. And he can be both at the same time.

Once again, I maintain that the bard can be good (he can even be mathematically better if he wants to be useless at being a bard), but the Abjurer is a better counterspeller because doing so doesn't interfere with anything else that he does.

[odigity]

Sounds like counterspelling (and likewise Dispel Magic) could use a mini-guide of it's own to cover the options and differtly-optimized builds.

[SharkForce]

there aren't that many variations really.

the main things you can add:

be an abjurer (self)
jack of all trades (self)
enhance ability (self or other, requires concentration)
inspiration (self or other)
guidance (self or other)

i suppose there's probably other stuff too, but that's pretty much it. there's your guide on ways to be a counterspeller/dispeller.

[odigity]

there aren't that many variations really.

the main things you can add:

be an abjurer (self)
jack of all trades (self)
enhance ability (self or other, requires concentration)
inspiration (self or other)
guidance (self or other)

i suppose there's probably other stuff too, but that's pretty much it. there's your guide on ways to be a counterspeller/dispeller.

Did you not see Shadow's and Talderas's detailed analysis of per-level build effectiveness? That's also useful.

Besides, I did say "mini-guide". The important thing is that it be well-titled, have the sum of all discussion points organized in the top post, be maintained when additional ideas/info get added, and be linked from the Guides Index thread.

[Talderas]

Once again, I maintain that the bard can be good (he can even be mathematically better if he wants to be useless at being a bard), but the Abjurer is a better counterspeller because doing so doesn't interfere with anything else that he does.

A bard doesn't need advantage to be competitive with an abjurist before level 14 which you declared abjurists to be king until that level. From level 6 to 9 the bard has dominance by virtue of jack of all trades since it is thoroughly reasonable to expect the bard and abjurist to have similar casting attribute scores. No additional resources expended. Only at level 5, because the bard doesn't yet have counterspell, and level 10+ does an abjurist have an advantage which is +2 at lv10 and +3 at lv13.

Concentration is also not a problem for a bard since he has access to Glyph of Warding which can be used to cast enhance ability on him freeing his concentration for other bard spells. Granted, this would cost two spell slots to perform but it does address the concentration problem. However, he doesn't even need to use enhance ability to have a reasonable chance of being just as good or better with just BI dice. Likewise, if he's maintaining advantage he need not use BI dice to have a reasonable outcome that is better than what the abjurist will perform.

Of course, the grand question is just what does being a bard entail, to which the correct answer is what you want him to be. If you want your bard to be someone that can debillitate the enemy and overall denying the enemy, then being a fantastic counterspeller is a perfectly valid option since spells typically have the most powerful effects in the game.

--

Jack of All Trades will not stack with the abjurist ability.
Guidance requires concentration so without shenanigans or someone else casting it you are better off with enhance ability over guidance.

Obviously, the maximum effect is to be a bard, cast enhance ability on yourself. Have another bard in your party which casts guidance on you. The bard uses bardic inspiration on you granting you a bardic inspiration die then you use peerless skill to use one of your bardic inspiration dice. (d20|d20) + 5 (Charisma) + 3 (Jack of All Trades) + 1d12 (Peerless Skill) + 1d12 (Bardic Inspiration Die

[Shadow]

Bards can be mathematically superior, but at the cost of many more resources compared to an Abjurer's simple task of throwing a spell slot at something.
Once you get to level 10 or so, the Abjurer counters 9th level spells more often than not.
Once you get to 14th level or so, the bard does the same, but uses more resources to do it.
Beyond that, none of the rest matters and math becomes less useful. They can both do it, and the higher level they get, the easier it is. But the bard uses more resources, so the Abjurer is inherently better at it. The bard can make himself better at it via extra resource consumption, but by the time he can do that it almost doesn't matter because you can somewhat reliably counter 8th & 9th level spells.
At that point the math pretty much becomes moot.