[3.5] Does it exist: Arcane/Divine L2 spells at class level 2?

[Mindstab_Thrull]

So I recently joined a game and have to make a "character tree" of four EL10 characters. Since the first one was with an LA+1 race, I agreed to make all the rest of my characters LA+1 as well, which means by EL20 I only have 19 levels available. I'd like to do 9/9 Arcane/Divine casting if I can though at this point it seems I may be going Druid for divine simply due to options for prestige classes. I've already asked about Precocious Apprentice vis-a-vis early entry into Mystic Theurge and it's been shot down, so I presume my best hope is that there's a divine and an arcane class that I can take at very low levels that give me level 2 spells by the class's second level. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Mindstab Thrull
Sanity eater extraordinaire

[Jack_Simth]

So I recently joined a game and have to make a "character tree" of four EL10 characters. Since the first one was with an LA+1 race, I agreed to make all the rest of my characters LA+1 as well, which means by EL20 I only have 19 levels available. I'd like to do 9/9 Arcane/Divine casting if I can though at this point it seems I may be going Druid for divine simply due to options for prestige classes. I've already asked about Precocious Apprentice vis-a-vis early entry into Mystic Theurge and it's been shot down, so I presume my best hope is that there's a divine and an arcane class that I can take at very low levels that give me level 2 spells by the class's second level. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Mindstab Thrull
Sanity eater extraordinaire
While it's not what you asked, exactly, if your goal is merely dual 9ths by ECL 20 (19 class levels), that's doable - Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest)-5/Full Advancement Arcane PrC of Choice-3(Sublime Chord) will do the job.

Other options would be Sanctum Spell (spells count as 1 level higher for all purposes if cast within your sanctum), Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster + Sorcerer + Favoured Soul.

[Renen]

I never heard of any class offering lvl 2 spells by lvl 2. If there was one, it would be insanely popular for early entry shenanigans.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Any of the list casters (beguiler, dread necro and warmage) can use versatile spellcasters to cast level 2 spells since they automatically know their whole list.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Bah. Found out that Ur-Priest isn't allowed because evil. And using Versatile Spellcaster may be getting ruled that I can't use it the way I think I understand it. Any other ideas? :/

If I can't do 9/9 reasonably, can I do better than 9/7 or 8/8?

[Troacctid]

Improved Sigil (Krau) is my preferred early entry trick because a. it only takes a single feat (which applies to both classes) and b. the Illumian race is designed to be good at multiclassing, so where other tricks feel like cheesy loopholes, this one feels like it actually fits with the designers' intent. You do have to be an Illumian, though.

[Uncle Pine]

Either Improved Sigil (Krau) or Sanctum Spell will net you double 2nd level spells at 2nd level. Otherwise, if you are playing a human or any other race with a bonus feat, Earth Sense + Eighten Spell + Earth Spell + Sanctum Spell can get you double 3rd level spells at 2nd level.

[Teh_das]

Would your DM be okay with allowing la buyoff?

[Rebel7284]

If you use Divine Crusader and/or Sublime Chord you can get dual 9s that way, albeit from a very limited list. There is also Apostle of Peace, but it sucks.

[Kraken]

Never fear, arcane hierophant (Races of the Wild) is here! Druid2/wizard1/druid+1/theurge4/arcane hierophant10/theurge+1 gets you 16th level wizard casting and 18th level druid casting, with minimal shenanigans if you merely use precocious apprentice as your level 2 spellcasting source. Alternatively, if one of the presented ways to get level 2 arcane and divine casting flies with your DM, you can instead do druid2/wiz1/theurge6/arcane hierophant10, which ekes out 17th level wizard casting and 18th level druid casting in 19 class levels.

[Endril]

If your DM doesn't allow early entry into MT with prec. apprentice, he'll probably shoot down the illuminati idea as well, but it's probably the fairest way left to do it out of all the options mentioned here. I'd like to 2nd the idea to combine MT with arcane hierophant; 2 levels in MT gets you the rest of the BAB you need and that's 17/17 by character level 20 without early entry. If you want it by ECL 20, I'd also 2nd the idea of asking your DM if he allows LA buyoff. Barring a buyoff or early entry, I don't think it's possible. Sublime chord actually has a great selection of spells, and you can use MT/AH to raise its progression to 9th level spells, but then you're down to CL 15 for druid by ECL 20. So 9th/8th looks to be the best with those limitations. Personally, I'd just go wizard/druid into MT/AH and get my 9th's at level 21.

[Otodetu]

I never heard of any class offering lvl 2 spells by lvl 2. If there was one, it would be insanely popular for early entry shenanigans.

Complete mage if i am not mistaken offers a feat for level 1 sorcerers and wizards, Precocious Apprentice i believe it is called.

"Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell."

The requirements are:

"arcane caster level 1st, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15"

This grants you the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells at level 1, granting entry into prestige classes a bit earlier.
If you later gain real 2nd level spellcasting the feat simply gives you a extra 2nd level spell slot.

[Chronos]

Otodetu, you might want to read the rest of the thread. Precocious Apprentice has already been ruled out.

[ericgrau]

Maybe you should cut to the chase and ask your DM if any kind of early entry would be allowed.

[Ruethgar]

You can get into Mystic Theurge at level 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/testBasedPrerequisites.htm#mysticTheurge). But if your DM shot down Precocious Apprentice I doubt he would allow it. Sanctum Spell, and Improved Sigil Krau can both bypass the prerequisites as mentioned above. Being a White Dragonspawn Cheesewrought Kobold can net you +3 Sorcerer levels meaning you only need 1 instead of 3 Wizard, though RAW legal it isn't logic legal. And do note that the modification to White Dragonspawn LA to make it less enticing was done in 3rd party while the original print was 2nd party so with only official material it is still +1 LA.

[Inevitability]

Faustian Pact should do it. First take a level in cleric and a level in wizard, then perform the pact and ask for a 2nd-level spellslot for both.

[Chronos]

Quoth Ruethgar:

You can get into Mystic Theurge at level 3. But if your DM shot down Precocious Apprentice I doubt he would allow it.
Probably not, but maybe. Precocious Apprentice isn't even RAW legal, since it doesn't give you the ability to cast 2nd-level spells (if it did, then it'd be self-contradictory). But I've never seen a RAW objection to the Improved Sigil method. So a DM might object to the former and not the latter if he's a rules-stickler.

[Troacctid]

And as I said, the Krau method actually fits with the spirit of the Illumian race. They're designed for multiclassing, so it makes sense that they'd be the best Theurges.

[Barbarian Horde]

There is a feat that lets you combine two lower levels spells to form 1 spell a level higher. this could allow you to qualify. Does anyone remember the feat.

[Rebel7284]

There is a feat that lets you combine two lower levels spells to form 1 spell a level higher. this could allow you to qualify. Does anyone remember the feat.

Versatile Spellcaster has already been mentioned.

[Jeff the Green]

It's less likely to be acceptable than precocious apprentice, but another option is Edritch Corruption (Heroes of Horror). One of my favorite feats.

[Vitkyng]

So I recently joined a game and have to make a "character tree" of four EL10 characters. Since the first one was with an LA+1 race, I agreed to make all the rest of my characters LA+1 as well, which means by EL20 I only have 19 levels available. I'd like to do 9/9 Arcane/Divine casting if I can though at this point it seems I may be going Druid for divine simply due to options for prestige classes. I've already asked about Precocious Apprentice vis-a-vis early entry into Mystic Theurge and it's been shot down, so I presume my best hope is that there's a divine and an arcane class that I can take at very low levels that give me level 2 spells by the class's second level. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Mindstab Thrull
Sanity eater extraordinaire

As one of the two DM's involved in this campaign (we alternate giving each the chance to play as well as DM) I'll clarify a few points.

1) We do allow LA buyoff. No hassles there.
2) Combining mystic theurge and arcane heirophant with LA buyoff is allowed, and coincidentally is the cheese-free way to get CL 17/17 by level 20. Just by buying off the LA.
3) Technically, RAW the Precocious apprentice is the clearest way to get 2nd level spells at 1st level, because it grants an actual 2nd level spell slot. The other methods rather than granting a higher spell slot just increase the Effective Level of a spell. So disallowing it was a Rules as Intended decision to not allow early entry shenanigans. Given that, other early entry shenanigans will likely meet the same fate.

Sorry if this hampers your build Mindstab_Thrull.

[Vitkyng]

If anyone can recommend any oher theurge-ish prestige classes besides mystic theurge itself, and arcane hierophant, in case Mindstab_Thrull doesn't want to use druid as his divine class, I'd appreciate that.

[Dread_Head]

Mystic Theurge and Arcane Heirophant are about it in terms of Divine / Arcane dual progression classes that I know of. You could just let him take cleric 3 / wizard 3 / mystic theurge 14 though with the last four following the progression from the first 10 rather than going onto the epic progression (which is stupid and terrible).

[Uncle Pine]

If anyone can recommend any oher theurge-ish prestige classes besides mystic theurge itself, and arcane hierophant, in case Mindstab_Thrull doesn't want to use druid as his divine class, I'd appreciate that.

Well, if you really want books thrown at you Sha'ir works wonderfully with Mystic Theurge and a Sha'ir/Mystic Theurge is better at theurging than any of your Wizard/Cleric/anything will ever be.

Other than that, I think that all the options have already been covered, unless you want to use Ur-priest on the divine half of the theurge.

[Jeff the Green]

Mystic Theurge and Arcane Heirophant are about it in terms of Divine / Arcane dual progression classes that I know of. You could just let him take cleric 3 / wizard 3 / mystic theurge 14 though with the last four following the progression from the first 10 rather than going onto the epic progression (which is stupid and terrible).

There's also Fochlucan Lyrist, which is an enormous pain to get into. Aside from being Bard/Druid, it also requires evasion. :smallyuk:

[Dread_Head]

There's also Fochlucan Lyrist, which is an enormous pain to get into. Aside from being Bard/Druid, it also requires evasion. :smallyuk:

Yeah I was going to mention it but decided against it because it ridiculously hard to enter and he was looking for non druid advancing prestige classes.

[Inevitability]

Mad Faith, from HoH. Moderate Depravity gives you an additional 2nd-level cleric slot each day. Southern Magican can turn that into an arcane spell.

[Necroticplague]

Don't know of any class you could exactly do that with, but I can think of some fairly similar things. Just take one level in an arcane spellcasting class, one in a divine casting class, pick up one of the following feats:Eldritch Corruption, Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, Improved Sigil (Krau). All of these either give you a free heighten that let you qualify, or gives you an extra heighten when you heighten. Either way, lets you cast 2nd level spells. Note that most of those have prereqs, enough that being human really helps out for this.

[Jeff the Green]

Yeah I was going to mention it but decided against it because it ridiculously hard to enter and he was looking for non druid advancing prestige classes.

It is possible to enter without Druid levels and it progresses any arcane and any divine, but entry tends to involve cheese, non-ECL 2 builds, and/or funky background stuff. For instance, a kobold Bard 1/Cleric 1 with Dragonwrought, Precocious Apprentice, and Southern Magician plus the Child of Nature sovereign archetype would meet all the prerequisite except skill points.

[Inevitability]

It is possible to enter without Druid levels and it progresses any arcane and any divine, but entry tends to involve cheese, non-ECL 2 builds, and/or funky background stuff. For instance, a kobold Bard 1/Cleric 1 with Dragonwrought, Precocious Apprentice, and Southern Magician plus the Child of Nature sovereign archetype would meet all the prerequisite except skill points.

For skill points, pay a wizard to Dominate a few high-level bards who will Inspire Greatness in your kobold. Then pay a psion to use Psychic Reformate you into putting more skill points in the relevant skills (which is possible now due to having a much higher skill cap).

[Chronos]

How does that kobold get evasion?

[Judge_Worm]

Wiz 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Wiz 2

That's 11/8 casting. If you could just shove another level of Wizard in there... Not that it matters since this gives you epic spells anyway. Mind you, your DM will probably throw books at you.

[Jeff the Green]

How does that kobold get evasion?

Using a candle of invocation to get an efreeti to make a ring of evasion for you, of course.

[Grim Reader]

Technically, RAW the Precocious apprentice is the clearest way to get 2nd level spells at 1st level, because it grants an actual 2nd level spell slot. The other methods rather than granting a higher spell slot just increase the Effective Level of a spell. So disallowing it was a Rules as Intended decision to not allow early entry shenanigans. Given that, other early entry shenanigans will likely meet the same fate.

RAW Precocious Apprentice does not qualify you for Mystic Theurge because you've lost the ability to cast 2nd level Arcane spells in exchange for an extra 2nd level Divine spell slot before you take your first level of Mystic Theurge, anyway.

Precocious Apprentice has been rule not to qualify for PrC entry anyway. Apparently it gives you a "chance to cast a 2nd level spell, based on a caster level check" This is apparently different from the "ability to cast a 2nd level spell".

What does work is Heighten Spell plus Versatile Spellcaster on a spont caster.

[Darrin]

Using a candle of invocation to get an efreeti to make a ring of evasion for you, of course.

I prefer Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots + Open Least Chakra: Feet.