Cutting Words

[Giant2005]

So Cutting Words subtracts an inspiration die worth from a creature's attack roll.
Does that mean he can turn an auto-hitting and critical natural 20 into a non-auto-hitting, non-critical less than 20?

[Gwendol]

From my understanding, yes.

[Ashrym]

No. per page 194 of the PHB

"If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits
regardless of any modifiers or the target’s AC. In
addition, the attack is a critical hit,"

Cutting words is just a modifier and cannot change the natural 20 from a hit or a crit. In the event of a crit it's better used to reduce the damage inflicted.

[Gwendol]

No. per page 194 of the PHB

"If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits
regardless of any modifiers or the target’s AC. In
addition, the attack is a critical hit,"

Cutting words is just a modifier and cannot change the natural 20 from a hit or a crit. In the event of a crit it's better used to reduce the damage inflicted.

That only speaks to the modifiers of the target's AC. Cutting words explicitly deducts the number from the roll, before the result of the roll is resolved and before any damage rolls. There is no ambiguity here.

[Ashrym]

That only speaks to the modifiers of the target's AC. Cutting words explicitly deducts the number from the roll, before the result of the roll is resolved and before any damage rolls. There is no ambiguity here.

No. It's regardless of any modifiers OR the target's AC, not to the AC. Cutting Words is a modifier.

[Gwendol]

From the PHB, page 54:
rolling
a Bardic Inspiration die and subtracting the number
rolled from the creature’s roll. You can choose to use
this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before
the DM determines whether the attack roll or ability
check succeeds or fails, or before the creature deals its
damage.

Not much room there. It explicitly states the deduction is made before the outcome of the roll is decided. That most certainly includes attack rolls, regardless of the value.

[Yoroichi]

I agree with the dwarf, although i understand the ambiguity. I think it is more in the spirit of 5E plus it says that you subtract from the initial roll, you do not add a negative modifier.

Safest course is to present your DM with both options and ask for a ruling.

If you are a DM, just pick one :)

[SliceandDiceKid]

From the PHB, page 54:

Not much room there. It explicitly states the deduction is made before the outcome of the roll is decided. That most certainly includes attack rolls, regardless of the value.

Hahaha I just see a bard player watching for twenties. Also, you'd need to know what the DM rolled to try to negate a 20. Sooooo... Guess it depends on whether you use a DM screen. I disagree with you, but I laugh thinking of my friends playing bards, stooped over the table like vultures.


I agree with the dwarf, although i understand the ambiguity. I think it is more in the spirit of 5E plus it says that you subtract from the initial roll, you do not add a negative modifier.

Safest course is to present your DM with both options and ask for a ruling.

If you are a DM, just pick one :)


I'd say if the DM sees the 20, the attack hits. Imagine if he had you fight a rock band, but the bards only used their inspiration to negate your crits. That would be so frustermigating.

Concepts work both ways.
Careful what you wish for.

[Gwendol]

Hardly, I assume never seeing what the DM rolls and expect my cutting words to work as labelled. The use of the ability does not assume anything beyond knowing the DM is rolling for something to which it applies.

If you have any actual rules to back up your statements, please show them now.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I don't care what you label cutting words to be, a 20 is a 20.

[Gwendol]

I don't care what you label cutting words to be, a 20 is a 20.

Not if I use cutting words at the time of the roll, then it's 20-whatever BI die is. It says so in the rules. It's not that fantastic since you need to call it before the outcome of the roll is known (to the player). This means it can't be used to counter a known crit, for example. It will mostly be used to alter initiative rolls, which in my opinion is the more powerful option.

[Noldo]

Not if I use cutting words at the time of the roll, then it's 20-whatever BI die is. It says so in the rules. It's not that fantastic since you need to call it before the outcome of the roll is known (to the player). This means it can't be used to counter a known crit, for example. It will mostly be used to alter initiative rolls, which in my opinion is the more powerful option.

The wording would appear to support the ruling that Cutting Words modify the roll itself. However, isn’t most modifiers defined as “bonus to [X] roll” or “penalty to [X]” roll? For example, Bless allows the target to add d4 to an attack roll or saving throw, but I doubt anyone would argue that it would allow you to turn a non-critical into natural 20.

[Gwendol]

Oh, that is absolutely true. The roll of 20 must happen on the d20 itself, not after factoring in the BI die.

[Gnomes2169]

Oh, that is absolutely true. The roll of 20 must happen on the d20 itself, not after factoring in the BI die.

... So what changes in between a natural 20 before bless and a natural 20 after bane/ cutting words? Their wording is almost identical, their function is almost exactly the same (it is a fluctuating bonus of 1-4 that modifies a roll either higher or lower).

In fact, the wording is even identical to static modifiers! They "add" or "subtract" a set amount from your d20 roll, so should having a -1 negate all critical hits you ever make by rolling a natural 20 (or 19 or 18 for certain weapons/ the champion fighter)?

[JAL_1138]

I usually play bards in any edition, but a crit's a crit. Nothing else in the game affects the actual number the die shows as far as I know; no reason to assume it would here. Agreed with Ashrym. Also, the crit rules say "if the d20 roll for an attack is a 20," implying that you only look to the actual number that comes up on the die itself.

[Shadow]

Bardic Inspiration is a modifier. It doesn't magically turn a natural 20 into a miss (and it doesn't turn a combined 20+ into an automatic hit).
Although with bounded accuracy, neither of those things will really be an option for a few levels.
Almost invariably, a 20 on the die hits and a 16 on the die still hits. It might come into pay at later levels when the BI die gets bigger, but that would require a crit and a pretty decent roll on the BI die to produce what would have been a miss (but still hits because nat20).

[Gwendol]

This is a specific rule and thus beats the general rule. I see no evidence of the contrary. If you do, please let me know.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

It's a modifier that gets tallied along with all the other modifiers, like ability score modifiers. But modifiers aren't used when rolling a natural 20. It's always a hit, and it's also a crit. You can't undo that.

[Gwendol]

Bah, lots of things can't be critted, so that's hardly the case. Furthermore, the player can declare to use the die before any rolls are made. There is no exception stated for rolling 20, and nowhere is the die result identified as a modifier.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Bah, lots of things can't be critted, so that's hardly the case. Furthermore, the player can declare to use the die before any rolls are made. There is no exception stated for rolling 20, and nowhere is the die result identified as a modifier.

Bah? You've clearly made up your mind ahead of time and are just manipulating whatever you can find to force a conclusion. The PHB clearly states that rolling a natural 20 is always a hit and is also a crit, just as rolling a natural 1 is always a miss no matter the modifiers. It's the actual die that matters before any other modifications to the total are made. It's very simple and going down a legalistic rabbit hole isn't necessary.

[Gwendol]

And the BI die is subtracted from the roll before the DM declares the result. There are no exceptions made for rolling a 20. Again, the specific rule beats the general here.

[rlc]

This is a specific rule and thus beats the general rule. I see no evidence of the contrary. If you do, please let me know.
The problem is, how specific is specific?

the crit rules say "if the d20 roll for an attack is a 20," implying that you only look to the actual number that comes up on the die itself.
That seems pretty specific to me and is an exception to the rest of the to-hit rules.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

And the BI die is subtracted from the roll before the DM declares the result. There are no exceptions made for rolling a 20. Again, the specific rule beats the general here.

There's no modification step before the result is declared, so the ability can't be used. It's not specific beats general, the ability just doesn't apply to the situation.

[Gwendol]

Huh? In this case it is explicitly so. I'm looking at the PHB right now so...?

[Shadow]

Huh? In this case it is explicitly so. I'm looking at the PHB right now so...?

Does bardic inspiration magically change the fact that a natural 20 was rolled and make the die turn over to the 17?
No?
Then it's a hit and it's a crit.
BI is a modifier.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

To clarify:


There's no modification step before the result is declared, so the ability can't be used to modify the result of the roll.

[Iolo Morganwg]

Good arguments on both sides, not sure how I would rule it, but a moot point for now with no bards in my group.

A homebrew compromise would let the natural 20 still hit, but have the cutting words take it down from a crit to a normal hit.

[Ashrym]

Hardly, I assume never seeing what the DM rolls and expect my cutting words to work as labelled. The use of the ability does not assume anything beyond knowing the DM is rolling for something to which it applies.

If you have any actual rules to back up your statements, please show them now.

I did post a specific rule. A natural 20 always hits regardless of modifiers, and crits. You chose to apply a modifier to the roll anyway and ignore the rule I posted.

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I did post a specific rule. A natural 20 always hits regardless of modifiers, and crits. You chose to apply a modifier to the roll anyway and ignore the rule I posted.

Yeah, the wording on Cutting Words is the same as on Bless and Bane. In all these cases adding or subtracting to an "attack roll" clearly means applying a modifier to the total, not modifying the raw d20 roll, which very few things in the game do (halfling racial and level 20 rogue ability maybe?).

[Gwendol]

Finally got it. Yeah, after looking up the wording of Bless it is safe to say that cutting words do not change a hit into a miss if the enemy rolls a 20.

Can't say they chose the optimal wording for that description, since it is the attack roll modifier that changes and not really the roll itself.

[Gnomes2169]

Finally got it. Yeah, after looking up the wording of Bless it is safe to say that cutting words do not change a hit into a miss if the enemy rolls a 20.

Can't say they chose the optimal wording for that description, since it is the attack roll modifier that changes and not really the roll itself.

It's the exact same wording as all other attack roll modifiers this edition, so... I'm not exactly sure own they would make that more clear. :/

[SiuiS]

No. per page 194 of the PHB

"If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits
regardless of any modifiers or the target’s AC. In
addition, the attack is a critical hit,"

Cutting words is just a modifier and cannot change the natural 20 from a hit or a crit. In the event of a crit it's better used to reduce the damage inflicted.

Correct.


That only speaks to the modifiers of the target's AC. Cutting words explicitly deducts the number from the roll, before the result of the roll is resolved and before any damage rolls. There is no ambiguity here.

It doesn't matter. It's been lost in recent editions because there are no ways to change the natural die roll, only the modified die roll. People less than twenty just won't know those language associations.

If the die roll is a natural 20 (20 is the face on the physical die), then it is always a hit. Only late game ability to switch targets ever changes this, by making them automatically hit the wrong thing. Even if you have a -100 on the die roll, a 20 will hit. You always have that five percent chance. The same goes for the reverse; I've missed with true strike active before and it was hilarious.

Next may choose to ignore that distinction and if it is hazy, the correct answer is "run it how you want your table to run it", but in general unless something specifically talks about altering the natural result of the due, or says treat the roll as a different number, then you keep the base number and anything which changes it is a modifier. It's a "modified" roll of (20-X) but the physical roll is still 20.

[Talderas]

Not if I use cutting words at the time of the roll, then it's 20-whatever BI die is. It says so in the rules. It's not that fantastic since you need to call it before the outcome of the roll is known (to the player). This means it can't be used to counter a known crit, for example. It will mostly be used to alter initiative rolls, which in my opinion is the more powerful option.

The best use for Cutting Words is as a penalty during opposed ability checks like grapples. Second best would be attack rolls, and third best would be straight damage. The safest usage, as in highest probaiblities of success, are going to be damage rolls, attack rolls, and opposed ability checks because unless someone in your party is built to counter the opposed ability check the other character is probably built well enough that the cutting word is only going to bring them on par although cutting word + bardic inspiration from a previous bonus action would likely leave your ally in the advantageous spot.

[Gwendol]

Really? I thought initiative or a save would be the mostly used option. In my experience, you really want to stack the dices against the enemy making a save vs spell, since it may otherwise go to waste thus making the caster "lose" an action, and lose the spell/spell slot.

[Talderas]

Really? I thought initiative or a save would be the mostly used option. In my experience, you really want to stack the dices against the enemy making a save vs spell, since it may otherwise go to waste thus making the caster "lose" an action, and lose the spell/spell slot.

You cannot use cutting words on saves, only ability checks, attack rolls, or damage rolls. Combat maneuvers are actually reasonable to use in Next and are potent enough. A bard at level 5 could provide a potential advantage to his ally of between 2-16 on a combat maneuver although it requires 2 bardic inspiration dice.