3.5 Rogue Questions

[Raul Leão]

Hi people, at first, sorry for bad english, im Brazilian!

I have a Rogue with 20 DEX (+5) Bonus
I have that feat that allow me to do 1 + (DEX Bonus) atacks when atacking off guard enemy
1 use 2 weapons

Here are the questions:

1_ I can do the 6 atacks in the same target?
2_ If im using 2 daggers i can do 12 atacks then?
3_ I have to roll a D6 (stealth atack) how many times?

Thanks guys!

[Doc_Maynot]

Combat Reflexes, the one that lets you make additional Attack of Opportunity?

1. Enemies only provoke attacks of opportunity when they leave one your threatened squares (Even if it is to go to another one).
2. You may only make one attack per action that provokes. So if they take a move action to run around you, you only get one attack.
3. Two weapon fighting only can be used on a full attack action. (One that consumes both your standard action, and your move action) However there is a feat in that series that lets you use both weapons in one Attack of Opportunity.
4. Sneak attacks would be rolled once per applicable attack. They'd have to provoke while you flank them or while they do not benefit from from Dex to AC. (Like from being flatfooted, from you being invisible, and a few other ways)

[Chronos]

1. Enemies only provoke attacks of opportunity when they leave one your threatened squares (Even if it is to go to another one).
Not only then-- You can also provoke by casting a spell, or by getting up from prone, or a variety of other actions. Though leaving a threatened square is probably the most common one.

[Raul Leão]

here is the feat:

Combat Reflexes [General]

Benefit
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.
With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal
A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Special
The Combat Reflexes feat does not allow a rogue to use her opportunist ability more than once per round.
A fighter may select Combat Reflexes as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A monk may select Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat at 2nd level.



its means that if an enemy provoke atack of oportunity, i can atack him just 1 time?

the total of 6 atacks is just when 6 enemies provoke atack of oportunity?

[balegar]

the total of 6 atacks is just when 6 enemies provoke atack of oportunity?
The same enemy can provoke an attack of opportunity if it's for two different reasons, such as moving out of a threatened square and then casting a spell.

[JDL]

Making an Attack of Opportunity
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.

An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus—even if you’ve already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

So to use this attack the enemy must provoke an attack of opportunity. Usually this only happens on someone else's turn.

When the enemy provokes the AoO, you get a single attack, not a full attack.

This attack uses one of your AoOs. With combat reflexes, you can make additional attacks, but not at the same time. The enemy must provoke another AoO before you can make another attack.

You get to add sneak attack to your AoO if the attack qualifies for it (enemy flatfooted, flanking or denied Dexterity to AC).

So is this feat a waste of time? Possibly. It's very situational in use, since most of the time the enemy is clever enough to avoid provoking an AoO in the first place. However there's ways to maximize the benefits if you plan for it.

[nedz]

Provoking AoOs is listed in the Player's Handbook under Combat/Actions in Combat.

It's also listed here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) on the SRD.
Just check out the tables (there are five tables here, though only 4 list actions which provoke).

Other actions from non core sources may also provoke, including certain feats.

Now whenever someone does one of those actions, whilst you are threatening them, they provoke an AoO — which is why people with Combat Reflexes like reach weapons.

[Raul Leão]

Not getting this feat then hahaha ill never use it, we are playing without table, so there AoO will almost never happen. Im thinking of adding feats for battle, since i think my Dungeon Master won´t put much traps, lockers, etc.... i know him haha

I have just 1 more question, if i have the combat with 2 weapons feat and the other related, i can make 1 atack with the main hand and 3 others with the second hand, does the stealth atack applies in all the 4? When i have 6 Atack base bonus i can attack twice. So im allowed to do 8 attacks?

[Khedrac]

OK - without getting into some rather obscure feats...

Two-weapon fighting:
On a standard action attack you may attack once and only once (using either of your weapons) - but you do not take dual-wielding penalties despite having a weapon in your other hand.
So move + attack is one attack.

On a Full-attack you may attack according to your BAB with your primary weapon (so once for BAB 0 to 5, twice for 6 to 10 etc.) and once with your off-hand weapon.
So if you attack more than once you are limited to a 5' step in the same round.
So at BAB 6 it is twice with primary weapon , once with secondary
At BAB 11 it is three times with primary, once with secondary.

The feat improved two weapon fighting allows a second attack with the off-hand weapon on a full attack.

The Sneak Attack applies to all attacks that meet the qualifying criteria - opponent denied Dex bonus to AC or opponent flanked (by you and another person).

I hope this helps

PS - your English is excellent.

[Raul Leão]

Thanks for the help guys! I wish a forum with active players like this in Brazil hahaha

[Raul Leão]

Few More questions guys:

Shadow dancer is a good class? The hide in plain sight is like "jump in the shadow and no one can see me, even if i attack?"

Its better to level in SD level 19+ and get archery feats before, or just rush level 7 SD?

IM an elf rogue now. So ill loose exp by getting SD, i was thinking of getting half rogue and ralf ranger, ill levelup feats in archery while rogue and use the combat style of the ranger to play with 2 kukri. So ill be good at ranged and melee combat.

What do you guys think?

We can use only the 3 basic books (player, monster and master)

[Troacctid]

Shadow Dancer is okay in a Core-only game since although you need to take bad feats to qualify for it, it's not like you have a ton of options for feats anyway, so you're not giving up as much compared to a game where more books are allowed.

However, it is generally inferior to Assassin, which lacks the annoying feat requirements, advances your sneak attack, and gives you actual casting, which is more powerful than anything Shadow Dancer does.

[Andezzar]

The only disadvantage of assassin compared to shadowdancer is that you cannot get Hide in Plain Sight before level 13, Shadowdancer gets it at 8.

To take levels in Assassin you also have to be evil, which makes it impossible to take as some tables.

[Chronos]

IM an elf rogue now. So ill loose exp by getting SD...
Prestige classes don't count for multiclass XP penalties.

[JDL]

If you're looking to build a ranged rogue-ish shadowdancer, here's my suggestion.

Level 1: Rogue. Consider being a Human for the extra feat since this build is pretty heavy on feats. Start with your highest stat in Dex and at least 12 in Int (14 if not human). At this level you'll want 4 ranks in Hide and Move Silently. You'll also want 4 in Disguise and Perform (Dance) for some prestige prerequisites. The other four skills are yours to decide, I like Spot, Listen, Disable Device and Use Magic Device personally. Take the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats.

Level 2-3: Fighter. Put 2 cross class ranks into Perform (Dance) to qualify for Shadowdancer. Take Dodge, Mobility and Combat Reflexes as the feats for qualification into Shadowdancer. I like to put some ranks into Craft (Poisonmaking) here, since there's little else worth spending skill ranks on that's not cross class.

Level 4-5: Ranger. Get Rapid Shot as a free feat from the Ranger archery combat style. Put 4 ranks each into Hide and Move Silently to take you to 8 total in each. Levels in this class also allow you to use many useful wands like Cure Light Wounds without any check.

Level 6-7: Assassin. You pick up a few nice spells, an extra d6 sneak attack and a very weak death attack. Make sure to put 2 ranks into Hide, the other 10 are yours to use however you wish. I'd put 4 into Spot and Listen and 2 into Move Silently. Your feat is free to spend how you wish, if you weren't Human you'd want to take the one you missed here.

Level 7+: Shadowdancer.

At level 7 versus going pure Rogue this build has the following tradeoffs:

BAB: +5 vs. +5 (no loss of BAB. If your DM allows fractional BAB you get +1)
Saves: +6/+8/+0 vs. +2/+5/+2 (much better Fort and Reflex, lower Will)
Skills: 4+ ranks per level vs. 8+ ranks average (the big tradeoff, you get far fewer skills per level)
Feats: 3 bonus feats
Misc: 2d6 less sneak attack, no evasion (though you get that in 2 levels from Shadowdancer), free Ranger wand use, Assassin spells and wand use.

Of course this is probably far too late for your character but if you decide to reroll, give it some thought.

As for the Shadowdancer class itself, it's probably a solid Tier 3. You're not going to break a game with this class but it's a decent addition to a party. Personally I wouldn't take more than 4 levels. After you get a shadow companion and access to shadow jump there's not too much worth continuing in the class for. Level 4 is a good break point since you get no BAB or saves from level 5. Usually I'd go back into Assassin for awhile or rework my skills so that I can take 1-2 levels of Horizon Walker for 120 ft. darkvision and immunity to exhaustion and fatigue. An archer that can shoot in pitch black from 120 ft. distance is a lethal ranged opponent.

[Raul Leão]

I cant reroll, but im still level 2... Ill try to be an assassin, my character have lots of rage inside, he is chaotic and evil, specially with Drows haha his history permits this... Ill see this poison thing with my DM, if he allows the use and craft, ill give a try, i love this!

but do you guys thing its better to loose 2d6 of sneak attack to get some feats?

[JDL]

The 2d6 is situational. You have to get flanking, deny your opponent his Dex to AC or catch him flatfooted. The feats for archery are almost always useful if you plan to use the bow as your primary weapon. Plus, if you're going archery route as your main attack method you'll have very few cases where you can get sneak attack anyhow. You'd need to be within 30 ft. and you can't flank with a bow, so denying Dex to AC is the best method. Useful tools for this are the Grease spell, bags of marbles, or attacking from invisibility or hiding, or shooting them in the dark. This is why Shadowdancer makes a great archery class for rogues, since free darkvision means you can attack at night for sneak attack. Also don't discount the usefulness of having your own wand of cure light wounds. If you're hurt badly, withdraw and hide, pull out your wand and top yourself off.

Any character considering archery as a valid combat style will want the following feats:

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Manyshot

Then there's the prereqs for Shadowdancer:

Dodge
Mobility
Combat Reflexes

Also Improved Critical (Longbow) is nice but not essential. Still, that's a big number of feats for a pure rogue.

[Raul Leão]

JDL,

The combat style for ranger in level 2 gives me the precise shot, that i got as level 1 feat, so its 2 wasted levels....

[Andezzar]

You have not specified which books are allowed at your table. PHB 2 has rules for exchanging feats.

[Raul Leão]

Im playing with the 3 basic books, player, monster and master books

[JDL]

JDL,

The combat style for ranger in level 2 gives me the precise shot, that i got as level 1 feat, so its 2 wasted levels....

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

Combat Style (Ex)
At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. This choice affects the character’s class features but does not restrict his selection of feats or special abilities in any way.

If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

[Raul Leão]

I´ve changed my mind, i´m doing a level 4 fighter/5 rogue/11 assassin. Get the level 4 fighter feat (+2) damage, use 2 weapon fighting tree and use kukri with improved critical...

i Have 20 dex (18+2 from elf). next level ill up une of my abilities, its just 1 point, it really matters where i put? or i just have to put all my ability points in dex?

[Andezzar]

I´ve changed my mind, i´m doing a level 4 fighter/5 rogue/11 assassin. Get the level 4 fighter feat (+2) damage, use 2 weapon fighting tree and use kukri with improved critical...You can only have 10 levels of Assassin before epic levels (21+) and with the book selection you have available you cannot even go into epic levels.


i Have 20 dex (18+2 from elf). next level ill up une of my abilities, its just 1 point, it really matters where i put? or i just have to put all my ability points in dex?Every 4 levels you can choose where to put that increase, but it is a good idea to increase your most important ability. So while DEX 21 will not give you any benefit at level 4-7, at level 8 you can make it 22, if you put the first point in.

[Raul Leão]

So i get rogue 5/ fighter 4/ assassin 10 and 1 level left, i dnt want to put on fighter nor rogue because they dont give anything that good. Wizard is a good choice, even just 1 level? it´s my favored class, so i dont loose exp.... my abb will be 14 if i do so... just 2 atacks. if i get fighter/ranger/barbarian it will be 15, 3 attacks then.... what do you guys think? Use some magic is worth an attack?

[Andezzar]

If you mean Base Attack Bonus (BAB), yes it is 14, but BAB 14 grants you a total of 3 attacks, 15 does not add an attack, but 16 does.

Wizard is an interesting choice for True Strike alone. I also allows you to use wands and scrolls. Cleric is also nice for a dip to get interesting domain powers. Barbarian is not as interesting without other books as you cannot get pounce without them, but at least it is +1 BAB, d12 HD and Rage.

[DEMON]

Combining Wizard and Rogue on Core only? I'd go all the way then and grab Arcane Trickster 10. Granted, your BAB will suck, but with spells and skills and whatnot, you should be viable in all sorts of binds. Granted, not as effective as a full caster who knows what he's doing, but you'll have some other abilities besides spells to fall back to.

And if you're aiming for high BAB instead, Fighter 4 / Rogue 8 / Assassin 8 (or Rogue 4 / Assassin 8 / Shadowdancer 4, or any similar combination) would earn you 16 BAB = 4 attacks.

Alternatively, simple Fighter 4 / Rogue 7 / Assassin 9 gets you 15 BAB (i.e. equal to pure Rogue 20) and 9d6 sneak attack, plus pretty much all the Assassin goodies.

As a side note, don't expect too much from the Death attack ability, it's rather... unreliable in actual play.

And last, but not least, are you using the actual books (Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, Dungeon Master's Guide), or are you using SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm)? Because the latter option grants you access to some extra goodies, including variant rules and alternative class features for all the core classes...

[Raul Leão]

Im playing the basic one... i need something for battle, as i saw by now, my rogue skills and stuff werent used yet, im doing pretty much the same as a barbarian, my master dont explore it too much.... like, if i search something and found gold, i have to divide with all the party, if something appears or make noise, all of us see/hear, never happened things that my skills made difference, the only thing i used is the sneak attack... So i need to be focused on battles, the only thing that matters in the campain im playing....