Moving all [Force] spells to Evocation

[Jeff the Green]

Would it break anything (assuming we allow Abjurant Champion's class features to work with mage armor, shield and other appropriate effects)?

It seems like losing mage armor would make banning Evocation somewhat less attractive, and from a fluff standpoint it makes sense.

[Duke of Urrel]

If we're going to change the school of the Mage Armor spell in particular, I'd say, change it to Abjuration, not Evocation.

Considering Force spells generally to belong to the school of Evocation if they are used offensively is not a bad idea. But Mage Armor is clearly a defensive spell.

[Psyren]

I would just let Abjurant Champion's ability apply to both Abjuration and Evocation effects. Seems a lot easier than wondering whether you're breaking the entire magic system.

[crankykobold]

Another solution is original spell research. Your wizard could create an abjuration spell that worked like mage armor.

[Chronos]

Eh, Wall of Force and Resilient Sphere are both more defensive than offensive, too, and that doesn't stop them being evocations. Really, the abjuration school is kind of a hodgepodge anyway, since what a spell is protecting you from seems like it should be more relevant than the fact that it's protecting you from something at all.

[Psyren]

In psionics they are pretty much the same school (Psychokinesis.) For instance, Dispel Psionics, Force Screen and Inertial Armor are all under psychokinesis.

[Jeff the Green]

I would just let Abjurant Champion's ability apply to both Abjuration and Evocation effects. Seems a lot easier than wondering whether you're breaking the entire magic system.

Probably it would be Abjuration spells and any spell that grants an armor, deflection, or shield bonus to AC.

[Snowbluff]

Mage Armor should be an Abjuration like Luminous Armor. :P

I've heard people say that ASF should just be removed.

In psionics they are pretty much the same school (Psychokinesis.) For instance, Dispel Psionics, Force Screen and Inertial Armor are all under psychokinesis.

One of these things is not like the other...

Seriously, who put a spell that only affects magic systems in a school whose names means it affect physical ones?

[Fax Celestis]

I've heard people say that ASF should just be removed.

It should! It's a poorly thought out balancing mechanic that doesn't actually do anything. There are so many ways around it (ranging from spells that give you armor to items that give you armor without ASF to item enchantments and class features that reduce or remove ASF) that either it's irrelevant because you don't cast spells, or it's irrelevant because you don't care. Spells already have two failure points (save and SR) anyway, adding a third is just an extra set of die rolling every round.

[ericgrau]

ASF makes no difference in high optimization but then few things works nicely in high OP besides the top tricks. Removing it would hurt low OP. If anything ASF might be reduced to accommodate a little bit of optimization.

You could move all offensive or mixed offense/defense [Force] spells to evocation if you wanted. That way you don't step on abjuration's toes. Mage armor is a bit weird and could be moved to abjuration, since it never really belonged in conjuration in the first place.

[Psyren]

So what incentive is there for wizards to wear robes into battle if they can strap on full plate with no penalty?

[Flickerdart]

So what incentive is there for wizards to wear robes into battle if they can strap on full plate with no penalty?
Non-proficiency messing with their skill and ability checks?

Honestly, I feel like Evocation should just be gutted as a school, and its effects distributed among the others. There's not really that much difference between a Scorching Ray and Orb of Fire conceptually (the whole "real fire" vs "elemental fire" thing is hogwash, you're not going to convince me that you're throwing a ball of non-magical fire with your hand). If you're really worried about poor old blasting spells bypassing SR, you can just overrule the general rule and say they remain SR: Yes.

[Necroticplague]

So what incentive is there for wizards to wear robes into battle if they can strap on full plate with no penalty?

Nonprofeciency, magic items that take up that slot and are useful to spellcasters, there dex mod being high enough that they waste some it in that heavy armor (dex mod applies to touch, armor doesn't), vulnerability to things like chill metal or heat metal or repeal metal, the fact it slows you down, it's high weight, its cost you could use to buy something else, just off my head. Not having ACF =/= no penalty.

[Fax Celestis]

And never underestimate the desire to fit thematics.

[Jeff the Green]

Non-proficiency messing with their skill and ability checks?

Honestly, I feel like Evocation should just be gutted as a school, and its effects distributed among the others. There's not really that much difference between a Scorching Ray and Orb of Fire conceptually (the whole "real fire" vs "elemental fire" thing is hogwash, you're not going to convince me that you're throwing a ball of non-magical fire with your hand). If you're really worried about poor old blasting spells bypassing SR, you can just overrule the general rule and say they remain SR: Yes.

Alternatively, some Conjuration, Abjuration, and maybe Necromancy should be moved to Evocation. I think positive and negative energy work just as well, if not better, there.

[jedipotter]

Would it break anything (assuming we allow Abjurant Champion's class features to work with mage armor, shield and other appropriate effects)?


It won't break anything.

But I don't think it's a good idea to put all the effects of some magic into one school. I think Force should cover Abjuration for defense effects and Evocation for attacks. The same way heat metal is transmutation and fireball is evocation, but both are fire spells.

Though I also put all the orb spells and all the other optimizer conjuration big (haha my spell bypasses SR because page 42 says it does for no reason, awesome!) attack spells in Evocation. And put healing and positive energy in necromantic. And have mage armor has abjuration.

[Psyren]

Non-proficiency messing with their skill and ability checks?

None of those skill checks matter once you can fly/teleport, and initiative penalties are easily nullified too if not outright ignored. So you end up with no meaningful drawback at all and every mage wearing armor. Not a problem for some fantasy but D&D expects some kind of tradeoff for that capability.


Nonprofeciency, magic items that take up that slot and are useful to spellcasters,

In addition to the above, armor is much more useful in that slot than most other items, especially at low levels where there is nothing else worthwhile you can put there. Also the wizard can wear a shield without ASF and simply leave their other hand free, because why not? They don't need a weapon to contribute like even a cleric would. So why not just have them frontlining with everyone else? Why have martial classes at all?

[RolkFlameraven]

None of those skill checks matter once you can fly/teleport, and initiative penalties are easily nullified too if not outright ignored. So you end up with no meaningful drawback at all and every mage wearing armor. Not a problem for some fantasy but D&D expects some kind of tradeoff for that capability.



In addition to the above, armor is much more useful in that slot than most other items, especially at low levels where there is nothing else worthwhile you can put there. Also the wizard can wear a shield without ASF and simply leave their other hand free, because why not? They don't need a weapon to contribute like even a cleric would. So why not just have them frontlining with everyone else? Why have martial classes at all?

Do your Psions run around in full plate all the time? Or do you use Inertial armor? I'm asking because Psions do not have ASF and don't even have to be ambulatory to do 'magic', as such I don't see the 'tradeoff' no matter how much more I prefer Psionics.

[Rebel7284]

Why have martial classes at all?

Well, that's a loaded question in general considering the way D&D works. :P

[Necroticplague]

None of those skill checks matter once you can fly/teleport, and initiative penalties are easily nullified too if not outright ignored. So you end up with no meaningful drawback at all and every mage wearing armor. Not a problem for some fantasy but D&D expects some kind of tradeoff for that capability.



In addition to the above, armor is much more useful in that slot than most other items, especially at low levels where there is nothing else worthwhile you can put there. Also the wizard can wear a shield without ASF and simply leave their other hand free, because why not? They don't need a weapon to contribute like even a cleric would. So why not just have them frontlining with everyone else? Why have martial classes at all?

But for negating those drawbacks, you use up resources. That's the trade off. Just like under the current system, you use up spell slots to compensate for lack of armor, under one without ASP, you'd waste spell slots overcoming the problems from wearing armor. A caster wouldn't be frontlining because even with armor, they still have a lot less HP. And because spells still provoke on casting. And wearing armor would force them to change the kind of spells they use, since it makes it harder to hit with any touch or ray spells. And you have to deal with the other problems you didn't address, like slowing your down, the caster might not be physically strong enough to wear armor (I actually had druids with that problem before, there normal form couldn't move under the weight of their +5 Wild Mechanus Gear Plate).

Heck, thinking about it, even if ASF wasn't a thing, I still think it would be better to just go 'screw this, I'm just gonna use Mage Armor'.

[Snowbluff]

So what incentive is there for wizards to wear robes into battle if they can strap on full plate with no penalty?
Keep in mind that Psyren supports psionics, despite this discrepancy.

[The Grue]

Back on topic, I for one would support moving Force spells to Evocation if only to give specialized wizards a moment's pause before choosing it as a prohibited scool.

[Psyren]

Keep in mind that Psyren supports psionics, despite this discrepancy.

Psyren does; he also acknowledges that (a) psionics is already balanced around being a somatic-less system, and (b) psionics has niche appeal even within the already niche hobby. The wizard in robes is iconic imagery. You need a better reason for changing it than "I want wizards that can strap on full plate and use tower shields anytime they feel like it with no drawbacks*."

*Drawbacks like "oh but they can't climb a tree now" or "oh they might go second in combat instead of first" are not drawbacks at all.

[Snowbluff]

Which isn't accurate at all, because Psionics isn't any more balanced than Spellcasting. Now, I'm not saying ASF should be a thing (I have mixed feelings on the matter), but it seems silly to support one avoiding ASF and not the other.

Also, why don't psions need crystal balls to cast their spells? Or phony accents and telephone help lines?

[Necroticplague]

*Drawbacks like "oh but they can't climb a tree now" or "oh they might go second in combat instead of first" are not drawbacks at all.

How about "crap, I can barely hit anything with a ray now" (ACP to attack) or "This makes me considerably more vulnerable to rays and touches" (capped DEX to AC), or "I can't even lift this thing, much less anything else that might be useful, like a metamagic rod." (armor is heavy) or "crap, I can't run away fast enough" (reduced speed in armor, reduced run rate in armor), or "dangit, now I have more spells to have to worry about targeting me" (heat metal chill metal repel metal rusting grasp) or "Wow, this stuff is pricy" (price for full plate is enough for two wands of CLW).

[Psyren]

But for negating those drawbacks, you use up resources. That's the trade off. Just like under the current system, you use up spell slots to compensate for lack of armor, under one without ASP, you'd waste spell slots overcoming the problems from wearing armor. A caster wouldn't be frontlining because even with armor, they still have a lot less HP. And because spells still provoke on casting. And wearing armor would force them to change the kind of spells they use, since it makes it harder to hit with any touch or ray spells. And you have to deal with the other problems you didn't address, like slowing your down, the caster might not be physically strong enough to wear armor (I actually had druids with that problem before, there normal form couldn't move under the weight of their +5 Wild Mechanus Gear Plate).

Heck, thinking about it, even if ASF wasn't a thing, I still think it would be better to just go 'screw this, I'm just gonna use Mage Armor'.

Those opportunity costs still actually aren't. Boosting their HP? Flying everywhere? These are things wizards already do, so you're not increasing their spell expenditure at all, you're reducing it. And in fact, now they don't have to worry about their full plate and tower shield getting hit with an area dispel. Provoking? Not much of an issue when you've got +11 AC or more. The strength issue might matter, at least until they get mithral and extradimensional storage, then it doesn't. They are still T1 without rays, though if they really want them back they can just gain proficiency.

Dex was hardly their main defense against rays to begin with (ray deflection being yet another common buff with or without plate), since when was lifting things the wizard's job, overland flight, and heat metal, seriously?

[Fax Celestis]

Again, my argument is that there are so many ways around it that it is practically irrelevant except in the lowest of op and the lowest of wealth situations.

[Snowbluff]

Again, my argument is that there are so many ways around it that it is practically irrelevant except in the lowest of op and the lowest of wealth situations.

Yeah.

Maybe keep the ASF, but classes get Armored Mage (Light) as a feature.

[Necroticplague]

Those opportunity costs still actually aren't. Boosting their HP? Flying everywhere? These are things wizards already do, so you're not increasing their spell expenditure at all, you're reducing it.
How so? The armor does have some drawbacks inherent to it. You cast spells to get around them. At best, you're saving one spell slot in exchange for a sizable pile of gold, so you're just trading one resource for another. So some would go armorless because the cost of the 1st level spell slot is minor compared to the cost of armor, and they find the spell slot to be cheaper.


And in fact, now they don't have to worry about their full plate and tower shield getting hit with an area dispel. Yes, instead you now have to worry about it getting sundered, disintegrated, rusting grasped into uselessness, stolen, eaten by a rust monster, shattered, ect..


Provoking? Not much of an issue when you've got +11 AC or more.
While that might look like a big number, its +0 against touch attacks, and isn't really that significant of a defence past the low levels, during which you won't have access to the spells that let you overcome its weaknesses.


The strength issue might matter, at least until they get mithral and extradimensional storage, then it doesn't.How are you supposed to extradimensionally store armor that you're wearing? Even mithral fullplate is a considerable 25 pounds, and mithral tower shield is 22.5. That is still a considerable weight.


They are still T1 without rays, though if they really want them back they can just gain proficiency.
And then they've had to waste not only the gold for the armor, but either a spell slot for Master's Touch (of the same level as the spell slot he saved by not casting mage's armor, notably), or a level in a martial class. Either way, the increase in power is paid for by expenditure of resources.


Dex was hardly their main defense against rays to begin with (ray deflection being yet another common buff with or without plate), since when was lifting things the wizard's job, overland flight, and heat metal, seriously?
In order: There are things other than rays that are touch attacks but include nasty effects (including paralysis, negative levels, stat damage), I expect the wizard to carry his own equipment (like wands, rods, scrolls, spellbooks, ect.), by the time you can cast that creatures are now even faster and have longer reach and your 30 feet aren't gonna cut it, that's just an example and I'm sure there are better ones out there.

[Psyren]

Again, my argument is that there are so many ways around it that it is practically irrelevant except in the lowest of op and the lowest of wealth situations.

The fact that you can get around a restriction with optimization does not make the restriction meaningless. It might be that way in GitP Op-Academy, but not in the meta most people play.

"I can get around this restriction, so it might as well not exist" is a silly sentiment besides. Taken to an extreme, you have EZ-Bake Wizards with unlimited-size mental spellbooks becoming baseline, or Chirurgery Loop Psions with unlimited powers known, or DCFS Grey Elf Necropolitans with FMI dumping Con at character creation. Why have any limits at all?


How so? The armor does have some drawbacks inherent to it. You cast spells to get around them. At best, you're saving one spell slot in exchange for a sizable pile of gold, so you're just trading one resource for another. So some would go armorless because the cost of the 1st level spell slot is minor compared to the cost of armor, and they find the spell slot to be cheaper.

Yes, instead you now have to worry about it getting sundered, disintegrated, rusting grasped into uselessness, stolen, eaten by a rust monster, shattered, ect..


While that might look like a big number, its +0 against touch attacks, and isn't really that significant of a defence past the low levels, during which you won't have access to the spells that let you overcome its weaknesses.

How are you supposed to extradimensionally store armor that you're wearing? Even mithral fullplate is a considerable 25 pounds, and mithral tower shield is 22.5. That is still a considerable weight.


And then they've had to waste not only the gold for the armor, but either a spell slot for Master's Touch (of the same level as the spell slot he saved by not casting mage's armor, notably), or a level in a martial class. Either way, the increase in power is paid for by expenditure of resources.


In order: There are things other than rays that are touch attacks but include nasty effects (including paralysis, negative levels, stat damage), I expect the wizard to carry his own equipment (like wands, rods, scrolls, spellbooks, ect.), by the time you can cast that creatures are now even faster and have longer reach and your 30 feet aren't gonna cut it, that's just an example and I'm sure there are better ones out there.

Armor can't be sundered, and rusting is far less common than dispels. Not to mention that if you're breaking those out against the party, you're just screwing the melee even more, while the wizard can at least throw on MA/LA as a backup plan if needed, even from a wand; either of which is a paltry investment at the levels where rust monsters become a problem. Also, 25lbs. is still less than a light load at even 8 Strength, never mind 10 or more.

Again, they only have to expend resources if they care about rays specifically. Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Grease, Forcecage etc. - plenty of spells don't give a crap what you're wearing. Meanwhile they are getting tons of undispellable AC with no duration for little investment.

If you drop down to medium, you can even dispense with the mithril entirely and still end up with far more AC than mage armor can give you, for far longer.

[zergling.exe]

-snip-

How are you supposed to extradimensionally store armor that you're wearing? Even mithral fullplate is a considerable 25 pounds, and mithral tower shield is 22.5. That is still a considerable weight.

-snip-

Mithral Tower Shields weigh 50 lbs, half of a Steel Tower Shield's 100 lbs from Races of Stone. A Darkwood Tower Shield would weigh 22.5 lbs, since the core Tower Shield is made of wood.

On topic, I was thinking to actually move all force spells into abjuration, while moving all elemental spells into evocation.

[Fax Celestis]

The fact that you can get around a restriction with optimization does not make the restriction meaningless. It might be that way in GitP Op-Academy, but not in the meta most people play.

"I can get around this restriction, so it might as well not exist" is a silly sentiment besides. Taken to an extreme, you have EZ-Bake Wizards with unlimited-size mental spellbooks becoming baseline, or Chirurgery Loop Psions with unlimited powers known, or DCFS Grey Elf Necropolitans with FMI dumping Con at character creation. Why have any limits at all?

Different. There's only one or two ways around those barriers, while ASF has a huge list of options to decrease and/or remove it. Seriously, check it:


Mithral material (-10%)
Blended Quartz material (-20%)
Darkleaf material (-5%)
Entropium material (-10%)
Glassteel material (-10%)
Living Metal material (-5%)
Wildwood material (-5%)
Twilight enchantment (-10%)
Feycraft item augmentation (-5%)
Githcraft item augmentation (-5%)
Hellforged item augmentation (-5%)
Thistledown item augmentation (-5%)
Armored Mage fighter ACF (ignore ASF for spells of fighter level +1 or less)
Spellsword PrC (-10% to -30%, depending on level)
Suel Arcanamach PrC (-5% to -20%, depending on level)
Runesmith PrC (ignores it entirely)
Knight Phantom PrC (ignores ASF from light armor)
Urban Savant PrC (ignores ASF from light armor)
Spellthief dip + Master Spellthief feat (ignore ASF from light armor)
Battle Caster feat (improve existing "ignore armor type for ASF" by one step)


Or you can be any one of these classes to just flat out ignore it in light armor:

Bard
Beguiler
Spellthief
Hexblade
Battle Sorcerer
Duskblade
Warmage
Dread Necromancer

[Psyren]

How is it different? How many of those are you going to pile on in a non-Tippy game to mitigate the 85% from full plate and tower shield that your proposal would give away for free?

And I never said I had any issue with the classes that ignore it in light armor, that's their schtick.

[Fax Celestis]

How is it different? How many of those are you going to pile on in a non-Tippy game to mitigate the 85% from full plate and tower shield that your proposal would give away for free?

And I never said I had any issue with the classes that ignore it in light armor, that's their schtick.

Either I am a warrior-wizard/gish thingamajobber, and I care about armor so I'd invest in this anyways, or I'm not and I don't care about armor so I wouldn't care about this.

It's just another little fiddly bit that most people usually end up ignoring or working around for convenience's sake anyway, just like rules for sleeping, encumbrance, or valueless spell components. If the rule never applies to anyone, why bother having it?

[Psyren]

Either I am a warrior-wizard/gish thingamajobber, and I care about armor so I'd invest in this anyways, or I'm not and I don't care about armor so I wouldn't care about this.

It's just another little fiddly bit that most people usually end up ignoring or working around for convenience's sake anyway, just like rules for sleeping, encumbrance, or valueless spell components. If the rule never applies to anyone, why bother having it?

I'll turn your question around on you - if the people who want this ability already don't mind paying for it, why make it even easier to get? Clearly it's not hurting anything, and casters hardly need the help.

Encumbrance, components and sleep are not good analogies. These are things it's safe to handwave because most of the time they shouldn't matter if you're just playing the game straight. Casters generally have their pouch, folks are generally not staying up for days on end, and yes, the spindly-armed wizard is generally not wearing full plate.

Your change sticks out like a sore thumb. In addition to giving arcane casters even more options, the question is, why? You've made that Paladin 2 dip even more attractive for the sorcerer because now he can pour himself into adamantine fullplate and get the same massive saving throw bonuses and lack of ray penalties he was enjoying without it.

It feels like trying to change the game for no other reason than to say things are different. And it makes no sense that big heavy plate is still so easy to move in. Again, why?

[Fax Celestis]

Simplicity and accessibility. Divine casters do just fine without ASF anyway. Why should arcane casting be any different? Like, just because I call down hellfire rather than actual fire, suddenly the ability to move my fingers precisely no longer matters?

[icefractal]

If I was reorganizing things -

1) Break up Abjuration. Divide its spells between the other schools as appropriate, with anti/counter-magic stuff in Evocation (you're evoking raw magical energy to break apart the other spell). It's the only school defined by a result instead of a method.

2) Move positive energy stuff back to Necromancy.


That'd be enough for a "light" reorganization, just fixing pet peeves. If I was going for a heavier one, with the goal of making the schools closer to equal ...

1) Merge Necromancy and Evocation, and yoink the positive energy stuff back from Conjuration. You're invoking positive or negative energy, sometimes with a lasting result (yoink Animate Objects also). For Necromancy stuff that's just in there because it's spooky, parse it out to the closest school.

2) Merge Enchantment and Illusion. They're already kind of close (Patterns, Phantasms) and while the combined school is still very Will-save oriented, it's got a bit more breadth.

3) Break up Abjuration. Since NecroEvocation is pretty good now, it's not necessarily the one to give the counter-magic stuff to. Maybe Transmutation? Conjuration for AMF?

4) Steal Teleportation from Conjuration and put it into Divination. Reasoning: Knowing your exact course in meta-physical space is the most important part of teleportation; otherwise you just end up as a smear.

5) Specialists now ban just one school, obviously.

Divination still seems like the weak link here, in terms of number of spells. But, it has a monopoly on both parts of "scry and die". Plus, you could add some Psionics-style self buffs to it.

[Flickerdart]

Simplicity and accessibility. Divine casters do just fine without ASF anyway. Why should arcane casting be any different? Like, just because I call down hellfire rather than actual fire, suddenly the ability to move my fingers precisely no longer matters?
Because wizards who don't wear robes ruin the setting, of course. Why do you want your wizard to wear pants? Are you some kind of sorcerer? Harrumph!

[Necroticplague]

The fact that you can get around a restriction with optimization does not make the restriction meaningless. It might be that way in GitP Op-Academy, but not in the meta most people play.

"I can get around this restriction, so it might as well not exist" is a silly sentiment besides. Taken to an extreme, you have EZ-Bake Wizards with unlimited-size mental spellbooks becoming baseline, or Chirurgery Loop Psions with unlimited powers known, or DCFS Grey Elf Necropolitans with FMI dumping Con at character creation. Why have any limits at all? Isn't this essentially your argument, though? "With some optimization of spells, I can ignore most of the non-ASF penalties from armor on a spellcaster, so they might as well not exist/don't count as actual penalties." Ignoring, of course, that some of the spells that let you do so are higher level, so it still matters until then. Like Ray Reflection not being available till level 8/9, overland flight not til 10/11. Sure, it would be good at low level, when armor matters most, but the same can be said for literally every other character in the game, and at those low levels, the cost of the armor is much more significant. . Don't see why the arcane casters should suffer such a unique penalty to them, considering the equally (or arguably, more powerful) cousins in divine magic don't suffer from it.