How would psions fight summoners?

[Thealtruistorc]

Okay, for my latest campaign, one of our party members is a conjuration-focused wizard who summons like a madman (our last game had eight summoned creatures on the field at one point). The primary enemy is a country of psionics-users. The party relies heavily on guerrilla tactics, which basically amounts to the wizard going invisible, flying into enemy territory, and going nuts with summon monster. Aside from Astral Constructs, I know of no way to properly combat the sheer numbers that this guy can pour out with minimal repercussion. I don't want to have to nerf his character, seeing as I have already forced him to switch once this campaign. What I want is a strategy for psions, vitalists, and tacticians to combat a horde of summons. Any ideas are welcome.

[dascarletm]

what transparency level are you playing under?

[Jack_Simth]

what transparency level are you playing under?
Also, 3.5 or Pathfinder?

In 3.5, assuming transparency: When critters start showing up: True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm), Touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm), or Eradicate Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/eradicateInvisibility.htm) to spot the actual source followed by Dispel Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm) to bring the wizard down to earth for a standard smackdown. Dismissal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dismissalPsionic.htm) and Dimensional Anchor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionalAnchorPsionic.htm) are also useful.

Mind you: This assumes that the Wizard is targetting locations that could reasonably have an equal or superior psion on site.

[JusticeZero]

PF also assumes transparency. Non-transparency is one of those weird house rules that people shove in the back along with vitality points, armor as DR, and saving throws as replacements for HP.
So yeah, the tactics aren't much different from the ones wizards would use to fight other wizards.

[incarnate236]

Circle Against x plus Energy Missiles

[Psyren]

- Augmented Dispel Psionics can wipe out several of his summons in one turn. The psion(s) can easily clear the board faster than he can refill it. Psions also get Dismissal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/expulsion) and Banishment. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/b/banish)
- If he is summoning multiple lower-level summons, they are basically cannon fodder - any AoE will take them out in swaths, and even non-kineticist psions have plenty of blasting to call on.
- A high-level seer can deduce exactly where and when he will strike first and have the city's resistance there ready to go.

[atemu1234]

Be an StP Erudite?

[AnonymousPepper]

Drop a Dispel Psionics on the Wizard to get him on the ground, then throw some Psi-Warriors (if it must be a psionic class) or Warblades with Null Psionic Field on them at him. Everything Warblades have besides gear is (Ex), which helps. They just get up in his face and his summons can't do a single thing without being forced to save against winking out. The trick here is to have a psion dedicated to countercasting with the melee folks.

I discovered this the other day when I had my guys fight a way-higher-level wizard with the aid of another high level spellcaster.


The Hathran just kept chucking Disjunctions at the Wizard while the party's Oracle proceeded to cast Silence on himself and just march up to the guy, honey badger-like. The Paladin then proceeded to beat the ever-loving crap out of the guy with no way to retaliate. The party was a solid 11 levels behind the Wizard. It's just that easy to shut down casters with basic martials as long as you have somebody dedicated to dispelling and a way to keep him from recasting.

Moral of the story: As long as you can keep the other caster from self-buffing, any low-level schmuck with a melee weapon can rip a caster to shreds. Here, the added NPF keeps the summons from touching the beatsticks.

[Thealtruistorc]

This is pathfinder, so psionic magic circle is out of the question. Pierce the Veils, banishment, and most of the others are still viable, though.

[Snowbluff]

*raises hand*

How is banishment considered a good power to take? I mean, I'm a fan of abjuration and I think it's a crummy alternative to more general mass SoL/SoD. :smallconfused:

[Honjuden]

Is this the same game as http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387261-DM-playing-PCs-against-each-other?

[Psyren]

*raises hand*

How is banishment considered a good power to take?

These are NPCs, remember? They can afford to take the niche stuff.

[Renen]

Well, the best way to deal with the summoner is to deal with the summoner.
Have a telepath psion that just ignores all his pets, and uses mind affecting attacks directly on the summoning mage.

Alternatively, have a constructor psion (or a few) spam Astral construct, and have astral construct beat the puny summons into the ground.
http://ceruleansanctum.com/images/2007/wilee.jpg

[Thealtruistorc]

Is this the same game as http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387261-DM-playing-PCs-against-each-other?

Excuse me while I have a talk with my party...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It appears PF Dispel Psionics was nerfed like Dispel Magic was. Still, with 8 creatures on the battlefield it's still a decent option. The big thing is to find and kill the caster, and Touchsight is an awesome-enough power for most (or at least some) psions to have, so I'd start with that and then find ways to down the caster directly.

That said, have you considered not hard countering one of your players using the GitP brain trust? From the other thread it appears that your player doesn't like that idea.

[Snowbluff]

These are NPCs, remember? They can afford to take the niche stuff.

That's a good point. They should take feats that would otherwise be wasted to upgrade it. Maybe we should work this oddly specific angle even more...

Specific counters may be a bit harsh. For example, you don't put enemies with 100% fortification against a rogue. You use 50% or 25% if they're upsetting the game.

[Meth In a Mine]

Because a Wizard summons things while invisible during a skirmish will invariably cause anti-wizard tactics to be rife amongst the enemy ranks. Seems reasonable.

Sorry if that sarcastic rant came off as antagonistic, but I feel that such a comment is necessary to point out the issues with hard countering a single PC.

[Honjuden]

Because a Wizard summons things while invisible during a skirmish will invariably cause anti-wizard tactics to be rife amongst the enemy ranks. Seems reasonable.

Sorry if that sarcastic rant came off as antagonistic, but I feel that such a comment is necessary to point out the issues with hard countering a single PC.

If there were survivors remaining from the skirmish, then I would hope the enemy would be smart enough to take note of effective tactics used by the PCs and take some steps to counter them. This goes double for a force composed mainly of intelligence and wisdom reliant classes.

[Jack_Simth]

Because a Wizard summons things while invisible during a skirmish will invariably cause anti-wizard tactics to be rife amongst the enemy ranks. Seems reasonable.

Sorry if that sarcastic rant came off as antagonistic, but I feel that such a comment is necessary to point out the issues with hard countering a single PC.

The first time? No. The second time? Probably not. The third? The fifth? The tenth?

Sooner or later, people who repeatedly face the same attack find a counter. To quote the OP: "The party relies heavily on guerrilla tactics, which basically amounts to the wizard going invisible, flying into enemy territory, and going nuts with summon monster" - this is very clearly not the first time the party has taken initiative this way. Psions tend to be smart people. After a couple of such raids, they'll be looking for patterns to predict the next strike point, and set up an ambush specifically designed to counter that attack and take down that attacker. Which is, of course, why you're supposed to vary your methods.

[Meth In a Mine]

The first time? No. The second time? Probably not. The third? The fifth? The tenth?

Sooner or later, people who repeatedly face the same attack find a counter. To quote the OP: "The party relies heavily on guerrilla tactics, which basically amounts to the wizard going invisible, flying into enemy territory, and going nuts with summon monster" - this is very clearly not the first time the party has taken initiative this way. Psions tend to be smart people. After a couple of such raids, they'll be looking for patterns to predict the next strike point, and set up an ambush specifically designed to counter that attack and take down that attacker. Which is, of course, why you're supposed to vary your methods.

Except we have only been in one battle using such tactics. We have NEVER used this tactic before, last session was the first session I was using a Wizard, before I was using a fighter who got banned for being too good.

[Honjuden]

Except we have only been in one battle using such tactics. We have NEVER used this tactic before, last session was the first session I was using a Wizard, before I was using a fighter who got banned for being too good.

Color me interested.

[Meth In a Mine]

Color me interested.

I was doing triple digits every round with each swing. I destroyed a pair of animated German tanks at once.

Also in response to your earlier comment: Nobody saw me. I was invisible the whole time. For all they know those Dire Apes and Wooly Rhinos appeared for no reason.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If this was a society of wizards and clerics I could see the logic in this tactic eventually becoming stale. But outside of expensive options, Psions can't just switch out their powers known to counter this one tactic -- especially if it's not the only thing going on.

We're talking about putting Psionic Banishment, an incredibly niche power, on an enemy just to mess with the wizard in question. That's not something the enemy could be expected to change in response to the PCs - they have it or they don't. Honestly the same goes with Dispel Psionics, which in 3.5 was an auto-pick but in PF is okay at best.

I could see mundane counters getting put in place. Guard dogs are a good idea for a variety of reasons. Mundane ways to mess with invisibility + Psions with Touchsight (a good enough power in general that I'd imagine many psions would have it) + gunning down the wizard could be expected if he's really carrying things. But completely shutting down summons, or coming up with specialty null psionics field foes just for him, is an overkill tactic that shouldn't just become available because the PC tactic is a problem.

[Honjuden]

Ahhh, well if you were invisible I guess the aforementioned intelligence based psions would chalk up the animals to Russia's natural Dire Ape & Wooly Rhino populations.

[Meth In a Mine]

Ahhh, well if you were invisible I guess the aforementioned intelligence based psions would chalk up the animals to Russia's natural Dire Ape & Wooly Rhino populations.

In this universe magic is a new thing. I doubt these Psions have seen a Wizard before.
Also the DM told me they were Psychic Warriors, who run off Wisdom.
I will second GoodbyeSober's argument that even if they knew they wouldn't be able to switch out their powers.

[Honjuden]

In this universe magic is a new thing. I doubt these Psions have seen a Wizard before.

This is the sort of information you should lead with next time.

[Meth In a Mine]

Sorry about that dude. My bad.

[Honjuden]

It's all good.

[Renen]

I think what we should REALLY focus on, is the DM that thought that fighter is OP for dping damage, then thought that a wizard would be somehow more tame...

Tier knowledge anyone?

[Snowbluff]

I think what we should REALLY focus on, is the DM that thought that fighter is OP for dping damage, then thought that a wizard would be somehow more tame...

Tier knowledge anyone?

It depends on the player... just not in this case. A player with little caster experience would not be able to pull something too annoying off in most cases.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Eh, I wouldn't chalk this one up to tiers. It sounds more like MiaM made an overpowered character (at least for the table in question), was asked to retire it for balance purposes, and then made a slightly-less-overpowered character. What classes were used to make these characters is secondary, except for the fact that MiaM now has multiple crazy tricks instead of one very crazy trick.

[Thealtruistorc]

If this was a society of wizards and clerics I could see the logic in this tactic eventually becoming stale. But outside of expensive options, Psions can't just switch out their powers known to counter this one tactic -- especially if it's not the only thing going on.

The Tsarists in this universe had numerous divine casters on their side, as the party learned raiding one of their outposts (the only part of this campaign taken from Rasputin must Die is the second encounter, and I tinkered with that too). It's likely that many of the Bolshevik leaders in Petrograd have seen this sort of thing before and have plans to halt it. Throw in the fact that many members of the Communist party were conspiring against each other during this period and there's a good chance at least a couple of them know a thing or two about dispelling.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that this campaign is set during the Russian Civil War

[Meth In a Mine]

Eh, I wouldn't chalk this one up to tiers. It sounds more like MiaM made an overpowered character (at least for the table in question), was asked to retire it for balance purposes, and then made a slightly-less-overpowered character. What classes were used to make these characters is secondary, except for the fact that MiaM now has multiple crazy tricks instead of one very crazy trick.

And now I'm being punished for cooperating with the DM. Ask the DM, I made no fuss about switching. But seriously, this is my second character that he's trying to counter. I'm trying to make my characters useful, and apparently I need to make a useless character in order to not have every NPC in the campaign setting optimizing their build to counter me I need to build dopes that are A. Totally obedient to whatever party member the DM wants to be the boss B. Not effective at fighting the encounters presented to us and C. Inclined to turn belly up whenever a Psionics user shows up.

@Thealtruistorc The Tsarists are fighting against the Bolsheviks. No way would the Reds have access to the divine casters available. Furthermore said Diviners would have nothing to look for seeing as I was a Fighter up until right now, unless those Diviners can foresee character swaps before they happen which I think they wouldn't.

I may be getting a little too worked up over this and I don't want to antagonize anyone, but I feel that this needed to be said.

[Eldaran]

There are ways that a Psion could easily know who you are (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/a/augured-answer) and change their powers to counter you (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychic-reformation).

But it really sounds like the problem here is between the DM and the player, and nothing in game will change that. I suggest you two have a talk about play style, and what you expect out of the game, because any other solution to this problem will be temporary at best.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Why did DSP change Psychic Reformation to all but eliminate the drawback? I guess no one's perfect.

[Jack_Simth]

Except we have only been in one battle using such tactics. We have NEVER used this tactic before, last session was the first session I was using a Wizard, before I was using a fighter who got banned for being too good.

Ah, so you're the player in question. That's interesting. You're saying it's been once. The Original Poster heavily implied it was multiple times. Interesting.

But yeah, if you do it once you should probably mostly get away with it. If it's highly effective, and becomes a primary schtick, however, people will figure it out and find specialists.


Why did DSP change Psychic Reformation to all but eliminate the drawback? I guess no one's perfect.
Pathfinder did away with XP costs. They were trying to follow the model.

[Meth In a Mine]

Ah, so you're the player in question. That's interesting. You're saying it's been once. The Original Poster heavily implied it was multiple times. Interesting.

But yeah, if you do it once you should probably mostly get away with it. If it's highly effective, and becomes a primary schtick, however, people will figure it out and find specialists.


Pathfinder did away with XP costs. They were trying to follow the model.

He did imply that, which is not the case. I'll ask the other players to make sure I'm not hallucinating, but I'm pretty sure we've only done this once.