Most broken support caster

[Renen]

So playground... how far can we break the following:
Sha'ir 5/War weaver 5/Rainbow servant 10

Complete with ocular spell shenanigans.

Cuz I figure alot can be done...

[nedz]

Beguiler 5 / Rainbow servant 10

[Extra Anchovies]

Why Sha'ir into Rainbow Servant? RS is much better with a caster who casts spontaneously from their entire list.

Human Beguiler 1/Rainbow Servant 10/War Weaver 5/Casting PrC 4
1st level feats are Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell to have the ability to cast 3rd-level spells by burning four 1st-level slots (and you will have four slots thanks to bonus spells). At least, I think Heighten Spell is enough. If it isn't, Beguiler 3/RS 10/WW 5/PrCs 2, and pick up Sanctum Spell at 3rd level.

[Deox]

Why not use War Weaver, Sanctum Spell and other shenanigans?

Using a Favored Soul entry, nabbing the ACF that adds temporary HP to spells they cast, then going into Spellguard of Silverymoon would lead to amazing buffing.

[Heliomance]

Why not use War Weaver, Sanctum Spell and other shenanigans?

Using a Favored Soul entry, nabbing the ACF that adds temporary HP to spells they cast, then going into Spellguard of Silverymoon would lead to amazing buffing.

War Weaver requires and progresses only arcane casting.

[Necroticplague]

Whether you can actually use versatile spellcaster like that is questionable. However, Eldritch Corruption works, and leaves a feat slot free. Other than that, anchovies is pretty much spot on. Just use Spelldancer for part of the casting PRC and Spellguarf of Silverymoon for the other, and you should be set. Just spend your mornings casting Persisted Sanctum Repeated Echoing buffs into your Tapestry, and you should definitely be credit to team.

[atemu1234]

Anything + Rainbow Servant 10. Just about anything, really. Though Sorcerers or Beguilers are quite frankly divine.

Accidental pun, I swear to Pelor.

[Heliomance]

Anything + Rainbow Servant 10. Just about anything, really. Though Sorcerers or Beguilers are quite frankly divine.

Accidental pun, I swear to Pelor.

Why sorcerors? They have to spend their precious spells known on the cleric spells. They're nothing special as Rainbow Servants.

[Renen]

I went for Sha'Ir because its basically a wizard, that can just follow a few clerics for a while, ID'ing every spell they cast, and know them all.
So full wizard list, plus full cleric list.

[kaffalidjmah]

Excuse my ignorance, please, what is Rainbow servant? Where i can find it?

[Necroticplague]

Excuse my ignorance, please, what is Rainbow servant? Where i can find it?

Complete Divine, I think. Its a PRC who's most notable traits are A: having a text-table disagreement on whether its a full caster or partial caster, and B:adding the whole cleric spell list to your spell list as its capstone.

[kaffalidjmah]

Complete Divine, I think. Its a PRC who's most notable traits are A: having a text-table disagreement on whether its a full caster or partial caster, and B:adding the whole cleric spell list to your spell list as its capstone.

thank you for the answer

[Extra Anchovies]

you should definitely be credit to team.

I appreciate this reference. RAINBOW FEATHER MAN IS CREDIT TO TEAM!

[kaffalidjmah]

Complete Divine, I think. Its a PRC who's most notable traits are A: having a text-table disagreement on whether its a full caster or partial caster, and B:adding the whole cleric spell list to your spell list as its capstone.

i checked it out, now the problem: i'm italian, and in the italian version is EXPLICIT that you skip level 1/4/7/10 for spellcasting advance. i think missing 9 level spell is the price we have to pay for having also the cleric spell list

[Necroticplague]

i checked it out, now the problem: i'm italian, and in the italian version is EXPLICIT that you skip level 1/4/7/10 for spellcasting advance. i think missing 9 level spell is the price we have to pay for having also the cleric spell list

That's the odd part. In some other translations, they chabge the table to match the text, and in English the two disagree.

[Renen]

English is the original, and text supersedes table. But I guess some translators disagreed, and made text follow table instead.

[nedz]

It sounds more like editing than translating, or maybe they were just trying to guess RAI, or promulgate their own house rules ?

I house rule this class as Table trumps Text because it's quite powerful even then.

[Extra Anchovies]

I went for Sha'Ir because its basically a wizard, that can just follow a few clerics for a while, ID'ing every spell they cast, and know them all.
So full wizard list, plus full cleric list.

Not actually. The Sha'ir spell list is the Sor/Wiz list plus the Air, Chaos, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Sun, and Water domain spells. "Divine Spell Unknown" refers only to spells that are from those domains and also not on the list of spells that the Sha'ir has added to their Spells (Truly) Known list.

[torrasque666]

I house rule this class as Table trumps Text because it's quite powerful even then.
I had one guy at my table try to argue that it wasn't worth it if he missed out on his 9ths. Not my fault he was taking some other PrCs that dropped caster levels.

[nedz]

I had one guy at my table try to argue that it wasn't worth it if he missed out on his 9ths. Not my fault he was taking some other PrCs that dropped caster levels.

Well I actually think that it's not worth 4 caster levels, but it's clearly worth some. RS with 10/10 casting is strictly better, for many characters, than most other options. OK, we all know PrCs which are much better: but they are quite few in number.

[Renen]

Not actually. The Sha'ir spell list is the Sor/Wiz list plus the Air, Chaos, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Sun, and Water domain spells. "Divine Spell Unknown" refers only to spells that are from those domains and also not on the list of spells that the Sha'ir has added to their Spells (Truly) Known list.

Wait... can you re-explain that? I cant quite grasp your point. Are you saying Sha'ir cant know every cleric spell? Well, you ARE right, but I was referring to Sha'ir/rainbow servant combo, not just straight Sha'ir who DOES only have access to those domains.


I had one guy at my table try to argue that it wasn't worth it if he missed out on his 9ths. Not my fault he was taking some other PrCs that dropped caster levels.
And he is right. Nothing is worth not having wish, and other lvl 9 goodies.

[Kraken]

Eh, if you want all the cleric spells I'd go ur-theurge instead: wizard5/mindbender1/ur-priest2/theurge8/incantatrix4 (not necessarily in that order). Same 10 level investment with some different benefits and tradeoffs. Cooperative metamagic and metamagic effect makes for a pretty good support casting chassis, I'm surprised incantatrix wasn't mentioned earlier. Better than war weaver I'd argue, as you can simply persist the buffs ahead of time, rather than using a move action to dispense them.

[torrasque666]

Wait... can you re-explain that? I cant quite grasp your point. Are you saying Sha'ir cant know every cleric spell? Well, you ARE right, but I was referring to Sha'ir/rainbow servant combo, not just straight Sha'ir who DOES only have access to those domains.


And he is right. Nothing is worth not having wish, and other lvl 9 goodies.

SPONTANEOUS ACCESS TO THE ENTIRE CLERIC LIST. ALMOST ANY SPELL, AT ANY DAMN TIME.

He was a beguiler. Beguiler's don't even get great 9ths.

[nedz]

SPONTANEOUS ACCESS TO THE ENTIRE CLERIC LIST. ALMOST ANY SPELL, AT ANY DAMN TIME.

He was a beguiler. Beguiler's don't even get great 9ths.

Beguiler's 9th Level spells

Dominate Monster
Etherealness
Foresight
Hold Monster, Mass
Power Word Kill
Time Stop

They're not awful, but they don't include Wish.
Hope, Luck or Zeal can get you Miracle 1/day for a feat though — though with RS you would hardly ever need it.

[Renen]

Beguiler/servant: Spontanious access to any cleric spell, ****ty access to arcane spells.

Though I do see your point.

[nedz]

If you build your Beguiler properly you can get spontaneous access to about half of the arcane schools, out of the book it's less impressive but still useful.

[kaffalidjmah]

I saw a few "some people can't cast wish"

Time stop. 3 round.
Force cage and dimensionale lock and killer cloud. If you have a support caster is done. Wish is not everything. Is an interesting part, but is not everything

[Necroticplague]

Note that if you're going to make heavy use of War Weaver, getting access to spells above level 6 isn't as important, since that's the highest level you can cram into a tapestry. I stand by rainbow beguilersnake with war weaver, a dip into spelldancer, and Spellguard of Silverymoon. The most useful feature from SGoSM won't be available pre-epic, but if things go to that level, the ability to extend personal buffs to allies in addition to yourself is useful.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wish is.... nice..... but it's not really worth losing sleep over if you don't get it. Besides, only chumps cast their own wishes, amiright.

Seriously, 5k XP in exchange for 25,000gp, a +1 inherent bonus, a spell you could've probably prepared yourself, or a barely relevant spell you probably couldn't. Yawn.

At least miracle -probably- won't get mucked up if you try to go beyond the listed parameters, at least not much. (not by a DM that isn't a twisted bastard anyway).

[RoboEmperor]

Seriously, 5k XP in exchange for 25,000gp, a +1 inherent bonus, a spell you could've probably prepared yourself, or a barely relevant spell you probably couldn't. Yawn.

How dare you insult wish! You should be ashamed! :P

1. It restores your lost spellbook! It says, by RAW, a spellbook completely filled out with 100pages is 5000gp, and spellbooks are nonmagical. That means, if your spellbook gets nicked, 5000xp is nothing to get it back. YIn fact, it doesn't have to even be your spellbook! You could wish for a new spell book, with all the spells you want, and give your DM the finger for limiting scrolls available to you and he can't screw you with anti-wish stuff because you're using it like a spell, which is unbackfireable. Blessed book is much better since it's a magical item. You pay an additional 1000xp, and you can wish for a blessed book filled out with 1000 pages of spell level. You telling me this ain't worth 6k xp? D:<

2. If your DM is a goddamn realistic stickler who says stuff like "mithril and blended quartz doesn't exist in this region", voila! Wish! Now your gishes can have twilight mithril/blended quartz full plates. Same case with thistledown suits. "Thistledown only exists in elven forests, and this campaign is far away from elves" ANY non-magical item is now accessible to you. If you want to be a real maximizer, you can just wish for 25000gp of the materials only and fabricate everything you want.

That's probably it though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How dare you insult wish! You should be ashamed! :P

1. It restores your lost spellbook! It says, by RAW, a spellbook completely filled out with 100pages is 5000gp, and spellbooks are nonmagical. That means, if your spellbook gets nicked, 5000xp is nothing to get it back. You can instead opt for a blessed book with 250pages filled out to maximize the 25000gp (12500 + 250*50 = 25000). In fact, it doesn't have to even be your spellbook! You could wish for a new spell book, with all the spells you want, and give your DM the finger for limiting scrolls available to you and he can't screw you with anti-wish stuff because you're using it like a spell, which is unbackfireable.

Or you could just cast instant summons on the stupid thing and have it back for 50gp. Or not be an idjit and actually protect the thing properly for next to nothing but a few regularly cast spells and make it impossible to steal except by fiat. Seriously; hoard gullet, rope trick, and a lesser rod of extend make it nigh-impossible to steal in the first place by level 6.


2. If your DM is a goddamn realistic stickler who says stuff like "mithril and blended quartz doesn't exist in this region", voila! Wish! Now your gishes can have twilight mithril/blended quartz full plates. Same case with thistledown suits. "Thistledown only exists in elven forests, and this campaign is far away from elves" ANY non-magical item is now accessible to you. If you want to be a real maximizer, you can just wish for 25000gp of the materials only and fabricate everything you want.

Planeshift and teleport say "hi." So do the cities of Sigil and Union. Also the city of brass. Any planar metropolis really.

Wish is good for two things: 1) Reversing the handful of effects that specifically call it out as the only cure 2) The penultimate "oh crap" spell to get you out of a bind (miracle does it slightly better.) If you're -really- hung up on it, you can scribe 5 scrolls with it and pimp your casting stat but that's very much unnecessary.

[RoboEmperor]

Or you could just cast instant summons on the stupid thing and have it back for 50gp. Or not be an idjit and actually protect the thing properly for next to nothing but a few regularly cast spells and make it impossible to steal except by fiat. Seriously; hoard gullet, rope trick, and a lesser rod of extend make it nigh-impossible to steal in the first place by level 6.

This doesn't negate the "Pay 6000xp to get every single spell in the game in a blessed book (especially if you're a geometer)" use.

The scenario I'm thinking of is, you drink a drugged mug of ale and wake up in the back alley with only your underpants. Instant summons is 1,000gp sapphire, and you need it on you, which means it won't save you from this scenario :P. Same reason why secret chest sucks.

As for pimping your casting stat, it's cheaper to just get a tome of clear thought or whatnot than casting wish like that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This doesn't negate the "Pay 6000xp to get every single spell in the game in a blessed book (especially if you're a geometer)" use.

The scenario I'm thinking of is, you drink a drugged mug of ale and wake up in the back alley with only your underpants. Instant summons is 1,000gp sapphire, and you need it on you, which means it won't save you from this scenario :P. Same reason why secret chest sucks.

Was it 1,000? Meh. Why would you keep it on your person? You put the sapphire somewhere you know is safe and only go get it when you need it. Teleport says "hi" again. Besides, if you're dumb enough not to check your food with detect poison then you're getting what you deserve.

As for the other thing, there shouldn't be any spells worth getting that you don't already have by the time you could cast wish.


As for pimping your casting stat, it's cheaper to just get a tome of clear thought or whatnot than casting wish like that.

No, it isn't. Not even close. The cost of a handful of 9th level scrolls is tiny compared to the 137k of a tome of clear thought and if you're crafting it the costs are comparable. Unless you're talking about the 25k XP cost. That's mostly unavoidable unless the DM is willing to throw you a bone on the tome. It's too expensive to just assume one is available for purchase unless the DM is using the epic tables in ELH. You won't have the XP to craft it until you're about to hit level 26.

[RoboEmperor]

No, it isn't. Not even close. The cost of a handful of 9th level scrolls is tiny compared to the 137k of a tome of clear thought and if you're crafting it the costs are comparable. Unless you're talking about the 25k XP cost. That's mostly unavoidable unless the DM is willing to throw you a bone on the tome. It's too expensive to just assume one is available for purchase unless the DM is using the epic tables in ELH. You won't have the XP to craft it until you're about to hit level 26.

You need to cast wishes in immediate succession to get to +5, so you still need 25,000 xp. So you still need to be level 26 to do this with wish.

5 wish scrolls cost 144125gp. A +5 tome costs 137,500gp. So tome is cheaper too

If you're talking about crafting 5 wish scrolls as you go along, then yeah, you're right, wish is better.

As for your comment on getting what you deserve. Your techniques is preventative, mine is restorative. Preventative is better, but it will only go so far, so having a restorative option is always awesome, especially since you're human, because humans make mistakes :P

There's no restorative option for a nuclear meltdown so its preventative methods are very strong but look at japan. Tsunami radiation disaster. Wish you'd have a restorative option then right? So your tight play is great and all, but its not an argument on how good wish is or possible uses of wish. Sure, you never use it, but doesn't mean wish is any short of awesome.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You need to cast wishes in immediate succession to get to +5, so you still need 25,000 xp. So you still need to be level 26 to do this with wish.

5 wish scrolls cost 144125gp. A +5 tome costs 137,500gp. So tome is cheaper too

If you're talking about crafting 5 wish scrolls as you go along, then yeah, you're right, wish is better.

As for your comment on getting what you deserve. Your techniques is preventative, mine is restorative. Preventative is better, but it will only go so far, so having a restorative option is always awesome, especially since you're human, because humans make mistakes :P

There's no restorative option for a nuclear meltdown so its preventative methods are very strong but look at japan. Tsunami radiation disaster. Wish you'd have a restorative option then right? So your tight play is great and all, but its not an argument on how good wish is or possible uses of wish. Sure, you never use it, but doesn't mean wish is a yawn.

As you noted, I said -craft- 5 scrolls of wish. 19,125gp and 25,000xp over the course of time that your buddies rise another level and a half or so. Not a worthwhile expenditure, IMO, but if you just -have- to have that +5 inherent bonus, it's the most reliable option.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and keeping the instant summons gem somewhere far away and private that you can teleport to is about a pound of prevention. So are a number of other options such as keeping a backup copy of the book next to the instant summons gem so that you can get your book back -and- thoroughly punish whoever had the stones to take it in the first place.

Even so, there's a reason my wizards all keep a few key spells as tattoos instead of in a conventional book. If they skin you then you have bigger problems than getting your book back.

Wish is nice and all but it's just nothing to write home about amongst 9th level spells. Shapechange in particular makes it cry tears of unutterable sadness since you can change into a zodar and get a free wish for a 5th the xp cost. (Be sure to duck flying DMG's if you actually do though.)

[RoboEmperor]

Wish is nice and all but it's just nothing to write home about amongst 9th level spells. Shapechange in particular makes it cry tears of unutterable sadness since you can change into a zodar and get a free wish for a 5th the xp cost. (Be sure to duck flying DMG's if you actually do though.)

As per Scrying rules on familiarity, you gotta have heard of the subject (via a knowledge check), met the subject, and then something more to make you familiar with the zodar. Only then you can shapechange into it since you can only change into shapes you're familiar with. So unless you scry a zodar and dissect it to become familiar with it, or befriend it, your choice, you can't do half the abuses of shapechange :P

Course there is nothing stopping you from doing aforementioned procedure to get shapechange to give you free wishes so I guess my point was moot. There's also the "exclude this sourcebook for this game" thing DMs can do to prevent this and Sarrukh stuff, but I forget which book zodar is from.

What's this "5th the xp cost"? o_o. Shapechange has no xp cost.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As per Scrying rules on familiarity, you gotta have heard of the subject (via a knowledge check), met the subject, and then something more to make you familiar with the zodar. Only then you can shapechange into it since you can only change into shapes you're familiar with. So unless you scry a zodar and dissect it to become familiar with it, or befriend it, your choice, you can't do half the abuses of shapechange :P

Course there is nothing stopping you from doing aforementioned procedure to get shapechange to give you free wishes so I guess my point was moot. There's also the "exclude this sourcebook for this game" thing DMs can do to prevent this and Sarrukh stuff, but I forget which book zodar is from.

What's this "5th the xp cost"? o_o.

For some reason I remembered shapechange having a 1000xp cost. Don't know why. Of course, the fact that it doesn't makes it even worse.

As for becoming familiar with a zodar, a simple knowledge check will reveal they exist and after that scrying one and familiarizing yourself is trivial. That's even assuming the DM actually decides that "familiar" in shapechange's description means "familiar" as in the scrying spell. Of course, you've been able to get "free" (for a certain value of free) wishes since planar binding, though that will probably be along to bite you in the butt any time now if you did go down that particular road.

[torrasque666]

For some reason I remembered shapechange having a 1000xp cost. Don't know why. Of course, the fact that it doesn't makes it even worse.

As for becoming familiar with a zodar, a simple knowledge check will reveal they exist and after that scrying one and familiarizing yourself is trivial. That's even assuming the DM actually decides that "familiar" in shapechange's description means "familiar" as in the scrying spell. Of course, you've been able to get "free" (for a certain value of free) wishes since planar binding, though that will probably be along to bite you in the butt any time now if you did go down that particular road.
Which the creature gets a will save against, you still need to have some sort of connection to the Zodar you're trying to scry if you don't know of the specific Zodar, and a Zodar is likely on another plane giving it a +15 to save against your scrying attempt for a likely base of +23 to save. Against a DC of possibly 32 but likely only 26. Either way on average its gonna make its save.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Which the creature gets a will save against, you still need to have some sort of connection to the Zodar you're trying to scry if you don't know of the specific Zodar, and a Zodar is likely on another plane giving it a +15 to save against your scrying attempt for a likely base of +23 to save. Against a DC of possibly 32 but likely only 26. Either way on average its gonna make its save.

And?

It's not like there's a rush. You keep trying each day until it sticks. Or you just get an efreet or noble djinn to wish one into your presence and ask it if you can study it for a day or two. Or cast gate, since you actually have 9th level spells. Or any of a handful of other methods. The point remains that gaining the necessary familiarity isn't terribly difficult and then you get all the free wishes you want. (Again, flying DMG's.)

[torrasque666]

And?

It's not like there's a rush. You keep trying each day until it sticks. Or you just get an efreet or noble djinn to wish one into your presence and ask it if you can study it for a day or two. Or cast gate, since you actually have 9th level spells. Or any of a handful of other methods. The point remains that gaining the necessary familiarity isn't terribly difficult and then you get all the free wishes you want. (Again, flying DMG's.)
The start of that method would probably invoke the flying DMGs.

[RoboEmperor]

1. knowledge check to know where zodars reside
2. scry area + legend lore those potential areas. Any monster that's CR11 or higher is legendary
3. Scry the specific zodar you heard about through legend lore.
4. Teleport there and kick its ass
5. DM says Zodar uses wish to kill you and make you unresurrectable. So you die.
6. Get another wizard to wish away your unresurrectability and a cleric to resurrect you. You could get a cleric's miracle to get rid of the unresurrectability but that would require you to be an asset in the cleric's deity's eyes.
7. Teleport there to kick its ass again.
8. Dissect it

But I believe, casting wish yourself is the only legit way that won't end with a book impaled in your head. Actually, what my DM does is a city planar binds 100 efreetis and each wish your death throughout the day. He also gets Mystra to smite you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The start of that method would probably invoke the flying DMGs.

Oh the whole thing is a book to the head waiting to happen. I was just sayin'.

My ultimate point remains. Wish is not terribly impressive as a "capstone" for a wizard's repertoire. The cost relegates it to emergency backup option status unless you just -really- want to get those inherent bonuses or a particular magic item that's otherwise proving elusive or too time consuming to make.

[RoboEmperor]

Oh the whole thing is a book to the head waiting to happen. I was just sayin'.

My ultimate point remains. Wish is not terribly impressive as a "capstone" for a wizard's repertoire. The cost relegates it to emergency backup option status unless you just -really- want to get those inherent bonuses or a particular magic item that's otherwise proving elusive or too time consuming to make.

You forgot about thought bottles. :)

Suddenly it's the 10th of the xp cost.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You forgot about thought bottles. :)

Suddenly it's the 10th of the xp cost.

Being one of the few things I outright banned from my games, I occasionally (read: nearly always) forget that those are a thing. It was kinda cool to see one get used in the War of the Spider Queen sextet though.

[Heliomance]

Note that if you're going to make heavy use of War Weaver, getting access to spells above level 6 isn't as important, since that's the highest level you can cram into a tapestry. I stand by rainbow beguilersnake with war weaver, a dip into spelldancer, and Spellguard of Silverymoon. The most useful feature from SGoSM won't be available pre-epic, but if things go to that level, the ability to extend personal buffs to allies in addition to yourself is useful.

The trouble with that is that Rainbow Servant doesn't get you an awful lot of useful stuff until the capstone. So you can't start throwing the really useful divine spells into your tapestry until level 15 - and that's only if you pulled an early entry into War Weaver.

[Necroticplague]

The trouble with that is that Rainbow Servant doesn't get you an awful lot of useful stuff until the capstone. So you can't start throwing the really useful divine spells into your tapestry until level 15 - and that's only if you pulled an early entry into War Weaver.

Yeah, that's always been a problem with rainbow Xsnake builds. I actually assumed going Rainbow Servant first, then war weaver, because I know how ridiculously easy it is to early-entry your way into rainbow servant. But yeah, being mediocre until the capstone is a big problem. That's another reason to recommend rushing it, so you can get to that capstone asap.