Becoming a worm that walks

[Zakerst]

So I've finally figured out a sort of end game for my Rakshasccubus.
a gestalted Rakshasa//Succubus straight from SS, vulnerabilities and all, it has also been ruled that they both a granting racial HD and/or class HD for the purposes of advancing abilities and what not gained whichever being the most benevolent reading by the DM at the time.
So I'll have sorcerer casting equal to my HD from the gestalt not just the Rakshasa side (seems really powerful, but turns out I'll be playing an independent PC so I'll be kind of a BBEG for the other party members).
And yes everyone else is gestalt as well and has the options of combining monster classes
However I'll still have to take a level in sorcerer for my end game anyway

So my tentative back story for creation floes something like this: I am an entity that was created in an attempt to a better mouse trap of sorts. The creator had previously tried to combine succubi and Rakshasas before (or at least found research on the idea.
However he/she had little luck as when fully formed they were very at odds with one another and independent, not to mention a hassle to deal with. So with some research he/she came to the conclusion that the better option would be to take two of them as they were forming (think level 1 in the monster class, and newly formed hours old at best) and planer bind them in the same location on the positive energy plane, along with some other things to insure neither of the targets could get shunted off anywhere.
There was some serous trial an error involved but long story short it worked and one held together long enough to form completely into the Rakshasccubus.
In the end I'm free and running around on the prime and have my own goals and what not.



I want to become a worm that walks as per the ELH, it seems like I can get away with being a valid target unless I've missed something (I likely have).

I will likely get a mother cyst at some point and otherwise just be the most squicky and dangerous thing I can be while avoiding direct fights as much as I can while leveling up to get to my end game and maybe brining about an elder evil for revenge on existence, or just set myself up to be a major power player in some of the other planes.

So my questions are: how good of an idea is this? Am I a valid target for gaining the template? Is there anything I should really be concerned about going the rout? Is there a way to pull this off without having any other spell casters involved? Would there be anything better to turn into? (note as an outsider I cannot become a lich as well as missing out on a few other possible templates)

As per the DM "There will be no epic spell shenanigans...", though I may be able to work around this with time.

[A_S]

how good of an idea is this?
From a character optimization standpoint, not very; the template doesn't give particularly good bonuses. From a "become something evil and squicky" standpoint, excellent. If the latter is your goal, maggot away!


Am I a valid target for gaining the template?
Yes, as long as you take the level of Sorcerer you said you're planning on. "Any evil wizard or sorcerer" means any evil wizard or sorcerer.


Is there anything I should really be concerned about going the rout?
Pesticides.


Is there a way to pull this off without having any other spell casters involved?
It would be pretty reasonable to ask your DM if you can research an epic spell that works like Gathering of Maggots, but involves ritually killing yourself and coming back as a Worm that Walks. If that doesn't slide, you might think about cloning shenanigans: For instance, you could make an Ice Assassin of yourself, command it to kill you and cast Gathering of Maggots on your corpse, then kill the Ice Assassin when you come back.


Would there be anything better to turn into? (note as an outsider I cannot become a lich as well as missing out on a few other possible templates)
Why, in particular, do you want to turn into anything? Is it just that "evil, squicky transformation" is part of your concept for how you want the character to end up? If so, Worm that Walks looks pretty good. If you're just in it for the immortality, there may be better options. A better idea of what you're hoping to get out of the transformation might help us give you suggestions.

[ShurikVch]

note as an outsider I cannot become a lich Do you know about the Lichfiend from Libris Mortis? It, basically, turns an evil outsider into standard lich, except DR 15/good and bludgeoning. Required CL 11, 5 at-will SLAs, and Craft Wondrous Item feat

[atemu1234]

So wait, catgirl is turning into a humanoid swarm of maggots? Pass the brain bleach, please.

[Snowbluff]

So wait, catgirl is turning into a humanoid swarm of maggots? Pass the brain bleach, please.

Here's some lotion...

[atemu1234]

Here's some lotion...

Pass them both, I suppose.

[Snowbluff]

Pass them both, I suppose.
*Passes bleach after pouring a glass*
Remember, if you see something, say nothing, and drink to forget.

[Zakerst]

The character didn't start out going the way of the eldritch horror, it just seemed like the kind of happened.

It started with the idea of getting a mother cyst to help with being a good and scary BBEG, on top of the scariness that comes with being a plotting manipulative cat girl demon thing that can sling magic and if left alone long enough is able to become neigh immune to it. The worst part is that since she doesn't lose any of her existing powers she can still alter self into any humanoid continuing to appear however she wants. The idea of such a corrupting and plausibly deadly, and simultaneously sexy and repulsive character was just too appealing to ignore.

I had not seen the Lichfiend before and while very interesting not quite hat I was looking for, though it would be interesting to become a lich fiend, prep a bunch of graves and then gain the worm that walks template. Since I'd already be a corpse all I'd have to do is have some minions prep the plots for a while and then lay in the ground to see if the worms come and if not teleport out and try with the next one.

A secondary reason I wasn't really looking a lich like classes (though now I'm considering it because undead worms and just a little worse than regular ones) is that they just don't notch up the repulsion as much, sure sexy corpses is unpleasant but in DND heck you can get feats from that but the worms its just so much worse...

The initial reason for looking at the templates was mostly that I just didn't have an end game in mind when I mage the char concept, I'd expected to be a PC not the BBEG, so anything more than create a horde of enthralled/duped/blackmailed people and going about my merry adventuring way was a bit too far thinking for how our games usually go.

As an aside and I should have mentioned and I'll edit the initial post "There will be no epic spell shenanigans...", though maybe I could talk the DM into letting me get something similar done by going off to find a major artifact to do it, it'd give me another quest/side goal which is never bad.

As for the brain bleach, you see this is exactly what I was hoping for. :smallbiggrin:
She seems sexy and in technicality is, then gets more and more scary and repulsive until you're left disgusted with yourself and it for ever having thought your thoughts. Though with telepathy and tongues they may not have ever been yours to start will. Not to mention if you ever got close enough to touch her she may have left you pregnant with a cyst baby you don't even know a about yet.
Its a combination of fears and repulsions, rot, parasites, mind control, violation of trust, something being not quite right, and likely a few others I'm skipping over all wrapped up in a ball of sexy cat girl

[Thrice Dead Cat]

While there is an epic level spell to make a worm that walks, there's also the less likely way dependant upon how many spell slots the character had when it died. I'm AFB, but if it doesn't have an upper bound to your percentage chance, load up with however many spells would hit 100 before going 6ft under.

[Necroticplague]

While there is an epic level spell to make a worm that walks, there's also the less likely way dependant upon how many spell slots the character had when it died. I'm AFB, but if it doesn't have an upper bound to your percentage chance, load up with however many spells would hit 100 before going 6ft under.

It's a 10,000 GP and 2,000 XP ritual. The chance doesn't have an upper bound, but its a pretty bad 1% per unused spell slot when you died. So buff your charisma as high as possible before committing suicide and having a friendly caster cast the required spells for the ritual. Ideally, the friendly spellcaster would be an ice assassin of yourself. Not sure if there's some way to give yourself more spell slots to increase the chance, though, beyond buffing your casting stat.

[Sam K]

Its a combination of fears and repulsions, rot, parasites, mind control, violation of trust, something being not quite right, and likely a few others I'm skipping over all wrapped up in a ball of sexy cat girl

That sounds like atleast two of my ex girlfriends.

[Snowbluff]

As for the brain bleach, you see this is exactly what I was hoping for. :smallbiggrin:
She seems sexy and in technicality is, then gets more and more scary and repulsive until you're left disgusted with yourself and it for ever having thought your thoughts. Though with telepathy and tongues they may not have ever been yours to start will. Not to mention if you ever got close enough to touch her she may have left you pregnant with a cyst baby you don't even know a about yet.
Its a combination of fears and repulsions, rot, parasites, mind control, violation of trust, something being not quite right, and likely a few others I'm skipping over all wrapped up in a ball of sexy cat girl
DRINK TO FORGET! :smalleek:

Seriously though, that's pretty cool. I like subverting expectations as well.

[atemu1234]

DRINK TO FORGET! :smalleek:

WELCOME TO THE HOTEL DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS...
SUCH A LOVELY GAME, SUCH A LOVELY GAME...

Anyway, yeah. I'll need more brain bleach now.

[Zakerst]

Ok so things have been rattling around for a little bit and I think I can get it done, so please let me know your thoughts on this and if I get anything wrong.

It seems to stand that Lichs leave their body behind when it dies, if so then:

1. I become a Lichfiend
1a. prep some ground/pay someone to do it/command someone to do it (it is possible to start this step before 1._

2. I kill myself leaving a body

3. I respawn and bury my own body preforming the ritual

4. If 3. goes through there are now two (or more) of me one of which is a worm that walks, if not then I am free to try again

5. repeat steps 1a. through 4. as needed/desired

6. Summon Kyuss and slay him and replace him

7.???

8. Additional profit

So does this work, and have I found an interesting way to clone myself? And how do these templates interact?

[Necroticplague]

The problem with that plan is that it's questionable if outsiders leave corpses. Because outsiders don't have a body-soul duality (their body is their soul, and vice versa), anything that shunts their soul somewhere (like being a lichfiend and cramming yourself into a phylactery), would also involve moving your body. A normal lich could probably try that, because their body and soul can be separated from each other, but not for an Outsider.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's a 10,000 GP and 2,000 XP ritual. The chance doesn't have an upper bound, but its a pretty bad 1% per unused spell slot when you died. So buff your charisma as high as possible before committing suicide and having a friendly caster cast the required spells for the ritual. Ideally, the friendly spellcaster would be an ice assassin of yourself. Not sure if there's some way to give yourself more spell slots to increase the chance, though, beyond buffing your casting stat.

There's the feat in LEoF that lets you split up your spell slots into lower level ones, but it's wizard only. It would get you 54 0th level spells out of 3 9th level slots though, which is more than enough to get that chance to 100% or at least very close.

For sorcerers there's no such option i know of but a 20th level sorcerer already has 60 spells/day before bonus spells from a high Cha score are factored in, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[atemu1234]

There's the feat in LEoF that lets you split up your spell slots into lower level ones, but it's wizard only. It would get you 54 0th level spells out of 3 9th level slots though, which is more than enough to get that chance to 100% or at least very close.

For sorcerers there's no such option i know of but a 20th level sorcerer already has 60 spells/day before bonus spells from a high Cha score are factored in, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Boost the hell out of charisma, then, seems to be the best option. Essentially I'm imagining with a rakshasuccubusaconicalism (I gave up on spelling that halfway through) probably will have a charisma score in the mid to high thirties, so giving it the template with a 20h-level sorcerer shouldn't be too hard.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Boost the hell out of charisma, then, seems to be the best option. Essentially I'm imagining with a rakshasuccubusaconicalism (I gave up on spelling that halfway through) probably will have a charisma score in the mid to high thirties, so giving it the template with a 20h-level sorcerer shouldn't be too hard.

A sorcerer 20 with 40 cha has 88 spells/day (60 base + 28 bonus). Buy two rings of wizardry for an additional 6 spells/day each and you're set.

Note that the success chance depends on the uncast spells of the target, not the caster performing the ritual.

[Zakerst]

The problem with that plan is that it's questionable if outsiders leave corpses. Because outsiders don't have a body-soul duality (their body is their soul, and vice versa), anything that shunts their soul somewhere (like being a lichfiend and cramming yourself into a phylactery), would also involve moving your body.

It seems that there is some duality though, and my evidence is as fallows demon and devil bits can be used as Spell Components as per the BoVD so at least some of them stays behind and lichfiend is an option as per the book of bad Latin and makes no mention of shunting its body elsewhere, though it might make since for something like its heart to be left in the box rather than just scraps of paper.

Further and independent of the duality the same part in the monster manual that states the lack of duality also references things like rase dead not working not because there is no body, but that the death of the body entails the death of the soul (i.e. there is no soul independent of the body for the spells to latch onto). So it seems to me that there is a body left behind only that nature of the connection is different.



At level 8 before level up ability increases I have a cha of 32 so I should be well on my way 31 spells per day already. I'll have at least 42 at level 13 (the first chance I'll have to become a worm that walks due to needing a sorcerer level and 68 spells per day without any buffs or additional increases. Meaning that with 3 plots I should be 97% likely to become a worm that walks between them a fourth with bump that up to 99%. Even with only two I'd have a roughly 90% success rate.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Not sure if there's some way to give yourself more spell slots to increase the chance, though, beyond buffing your casting stat.

The epic feat Improved Spell Capacity gives you slots above 10th. If you're casting stat is high enough (and I am sure it will be) that will yield many additional slots for one feat. Grab it a 2nd time at 24 for easy 10+ spell slots. Unfortunately that is still a pathetic chance of becoming a worm that walks.

Really fun template by the way. I played as one once.

[Zakerst]

Really fun template by the way. I played as one once.

Was there anything in your experience that you felt you really had to watch out for? and/or any other advice you could give me?

Hitting the cap shouldn't be too hard though not the most fun without getting multiple tries

[ZamielVanWeber]

A few things:
Because of the weird way it is worded (and the way the stat block looks) we figured that your caster hit dice were bumped to d8's. No idea if that is that way it is supposed to be, but that will color my comments.

I went in through Wu Jen and tended to spam Giant Size and Engulf. I could grab anything with a mere touch attack, add 50 to a concentration check DC (not much, but it helped sometimes) and just suck one dude out of a fight and use quickened magic to keep up the ol' action economy. (I had Improved Spell Capacity to bump up my chances to over 100%)

Summon Vermin lets you summon 2 colossal monstrous scorpions once per day, with 10 HD left over. I somehow jacked the spell level up (I think I used an epic spell) and ended up being able to summon devastation vermin. That ended about as well as you could expect.

Giant Vermin got changed in 3.5, so you now end up with it twice per day (functionally). Carry around some scorpions and spiders for maximum fun.

That Spell Resistance is annoying as all get out ultimately, as SR usually is.

Animal Shapes: turn your allies into as big a vermin as you can, then use giant vermin to make them colossal! If your DM isn't sick of colossal vermin, your aren't doing it right.

Save Creeping Doom for mooks (summon swarm is beyond useless by the time you get it).

Insect Plague is great for holding cities hostage. Go my locust swarms! Eat their grain!

Frightful Presence only works on mooks. 20+cha mod at epic levels? Pft. Sweet when you engulf a fighter though. Feeling him scream in your belly :amused:

Discorporate means you are now vulnerable to a fireball. Cast by a 5th level wizard. Never use it; just Greater Teleport/Plane Shift your way to freedom.

The insight bonus to AC is nice, but since you are in epic it is not as huge as you would like. Doesn't hurt though.

The most fun I had with it ultimately was playing an evil caster with the ability to use colossal vermin multiple times a day. Lay siege to cities with spiders biggers than buildings! Rip apart towers with centipedes! Go hog wild! The +4 LA hurts but it is too much FUN to ignore.

Edit: Fun story. Summon Vermin fails to specify SPELL level or CASTER level. The only level mentioned in the block was caster, so we went with that. I summoned a devastation scorpion, a colossal monstrous scorpion, and a colossal monstrous spider in one go. The DM then decided "spell level" was clearly meant and they forgot the "IX."

[Zakerst]

Story time


it does look like they all change to d8s, though if I get in via my lich form clones I'm not sure how the typing will interact, after all the corpse was of an undead (at the top of the type pyramid, but so too is outsider), so idk it makes more sense to me for the type to change to "down" to ooze because of the type of transformation but I'm not sure. It also makes sense to me that I'd be an Undead Outsider Ooze. However the most RAW answer it looks like to my reading is going to be I'm undead. (which kinda sucks the fun out of my huge con score)

sounds good though I should be neigh untouchable by most spells due to spell immunity 1-8, with a rather large spell resistance on top + elemental resistances so I think I have those bases covered and with an eventual min cha mod of +16 while I wont be winning any awards I should rattling more than more than the average fighters cage a bit, though any credible threat will likely be immune anyway. and was the blindsight of any use?

something that would be fun now that I see it is Kyuss (The Worm that Walks) is vulnerable to being engulfed as he's and aberration, now to find a way to get giant size on my sorcerer...

I'm also going to end up with mother cyst and a handful of SLAs, any suggestions on spells I should pick up? and the wording of engulf seems to indicate I can still cast spells while engulfing someone.

[ZamielVanWeber]

No indication about it. You can cast no matter how many people you've engulfed. Note there is no RAW limit to how many people you can keep engulfed at once time. One combat had me going Move. Standard (Engulf). Quickened spell. Repeat next round (he tried to cast inside of me and failed). 1st one escapes, so repeat next round.

Remember that all those spell immunities go poof if you discorporate. It is a trap option to the Nth degree.

Blindsight was of some use (bypassed many basic defensive spells like Mirror Image and Displacement/Improved Invisibility) but because of its insane range I think the DM didn't even to try to hide anyone from us. (The other character was a Paragon melee of some sort. Fighter into Divine Crusader I think). With Spot rolls out the rear, massive blindsight, and Dark Stalker not yet printed, hiding was virtually impossible.

Even with a high Cha (mine was 30 I think, my 2nd highest stat), anyone with a good save autopassed and a bad save made it sometimes (mostly because of cloak of resistance + epic making your saves all scale at a 2:1 rate ).

For spells take a fairly normal complement for whatever power level your game is at. I relied mostly on Giant Size and my SLAs for thematic reasons, but I still packed Greater Teleport, Limited Wish, and a few others necessities daily. You are essentially playing a normal wizard with a massive pile of vermin themed powers on top of it, so really take whatever you feel is normal (as a sorcerer I would recommend things like Wings of Cover/Flurry, True Seeing, Forcecage, Time Stop).

[Zakerst]

cool beans and yeah I don't how how I missed that "normal vermin" clause, it truly is a massive trap. and thanks for the spell advice

[Necroticplague]

Actually, I realized I was wrong about soul/body thing as it relates to this, though not for the reasons I thought. I realized that since being a Lichfiend makes you undead, you'd now suddenly have a separate soul and body (since you aren't an outsider anymore).