Re: Dream of Metal

[Exegesis]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?121334-The-Dream-of-Metal

This is very cool. The lich Anderson, in that thread, undoes history for pure laughs, but its utility is as a save point trick in case something goes wrong. This in itself is of limited use; you don't learn anything but that you did go wrong somewhere.

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I uncovered a dumb assumption of mine and no longer think any of this next part works; probably the author of the Dream of Metal thought it all through. I still think it could make a good story, however, so am leaving it up.

Forced Dream specifies resetting "everyone and everything", which, duh, includes the caster. The caster, after the reset, only knows Forced Dream was used by the absence of it affecting him. He doesn't know why he used it, any more than any of his allies. A smart party would have the psion telepathically broadcast a one-syllable codeword to signify Forced Dream had been used, triggering an agreed-on backup plan. Switching mental gears might be ruled to take up their swift or move actions, though.

But there's a bigger implication. Forced Dream itself knows it was used, so apparently there is something beyond time keeping count. The existence of the Forced Dream power should be enough for any psion with the intelligence to use it to realize they are living in a simulation.

Here is an easy fix for the homebrew world where Forced Dream's timewipe does not affect the subject of the spell.

Easy fix: just become immortal and learn everything, and have the traveler under orders to, as soon as you wake him up, Mindrape you. It only takes a swift action to activate Forced Dream. He even has a move action to run over to where you are, or to have entered the time capsule himself, if you're that lazy.

(True Mind Switch would be simpler, and would work if you ruled that Forced Dream is cast on the traveler's "body" rather than "mind" and was usurpable on that account—TMS already suggests a schema where bodies are just control boards hosting souls/minds. But that's impossible, because by that very logic, the fact that Forced Dream lets the target remember—and ah, here the plan's whole weakness is revealed—that they activated it is proof it's cast on the "mind".)

Or: if you Astrally Project the traveler right before immersing them in quintessence, their astral copy is free to spend the time until the Reset sequestered in the astral plane, using divination spells or knowledge checks to learn about what's going on across the cosmos. Then, before the traveler's body is freed, their astral form would kill itself and return to its timefrozen brother. When the traveler's body is freed and history is undone, the traveler would retain a detailed knowledge of the future.

The lich themselves should be the traveler in this case, so that they get to know everything firsthand. If necessary you can Dominate yourself to ensure that nothing stops you from activating Forced Dream when your immortal thralls wake you.

It would be interesting to have a setting dominated by quintessence save points, where history is only "set" up to the earliest point at which there are no time capsules. Everyone who can just pumps out quintessence pods and rerolls history when something goes badly for them. The timeline is constantly being shaken and everything happens many times, leaving no trace. If quintessence demiplanes, or altered time demiplanes, existed this could be taken to insane levels. If any of the gods are omniscient they'd probably become travelers themselves.

This could be made more interesting by posing that the Tharizdun of 4e lore was the inventor of this trick (in 4e, incidentally, he's responsible for the creation of psionics) and that when his famous crystalline Demiplane of Imprisonment is broken everything will be reset. This is going to happen, unavoidably; quintessence itself will degrade before god-matter. Why don't the gods just absorb the hit? Well, one, why would they, if it doesn't matter anyway. But moreover, because at the time of his imprisonment the Dawn War was still in swing. Go back, and it's 50/50 whether the gods will win this time.

- The water clock idea doesn't work as is, since quintessence is a thick goo and won't flow off anything naturally; after full immersion, a thin layer will cling and keep the traveler immersed. It has to be scraped off manually.

Easy fix: if you make the traveler incorporeal, say with Ghostform, that doesn't matter. The only challenge left is the mechanical one of making a quintessence coffin that will dump its load after however long, and that should be easy with magic.

My initial thoughts were:
Quintessence will cling to the time traveler's body (and a delayed blast fireball). You need a way to scrape or burn it off when the time comes. So it's better to hole up until it's time and then fish him out.
You can't hide from Wish. The best practical solution I can think of off the top of my head is to scatter backup plans, in the form of mindraped warforged wizards with scrolls of greater teleport, across outer space, and Programmed Amnesia yourself of the knowledge to stop the heroes from finding out when they Mindrape you. Wish just invalidates anything though.

- Dreams are so spastic, and a collective dream involving many minds must be so much more so, that it seems like anyone or anything who dreamwalked in would disappear in an instant. Even if you rule that dreamwalkers can't be erased by the progression of a dream, which would only make sense on the basis that they're equivalent to one of the dreamers, leaving your phylactery there seems a very bad idea.

Easy fix: Mindrape all the dreamers so that their memories contain absolutely nothing but a static 2d image of the same flat white room.

[BWR]

The best way to think of the DoM is that it is a plot by a BBEG the PCs have to stop. Hopefully they will succeed and you can just handwave the details about the operation and not worry about it succeeding.

[Exegesis]

Belisario is dead. And working out the details leads you to ever further delights.

[Ion]

Yea, the Quintessence + Forced Dream time loop is super cool. I love the comment later in that thread about how perhaps the effect would be limited to one plane. It seems like there are whole campaigns that could revolve around all the outsiders knowing that the board gets reset every 1000 years and trying to get the new high score. (Not sure what the metaphor actually means, but damn I want to find out.)

It also solved one of my initial problems I had with the thread. If I'm the big bad guy who has set this whole plan in motion, I know as soon as it all starts that whatever I do for the next 1000 years doesn't matter and will be erased... that's a pretty hard way to live life, I might even try and undo my whole plot because in year 999 I realize that I don't want to be undone! On the other hand, if I just have to make sure I am in another plane of reality when it all goes down that's a different story. Though it's a strange way to make a bunch of young clones of people. Oh the time paradoxes!

[Exegesis]

I read that part of the original thread, and it's a cool idea worth houseruling as viable, but I don't think it's RAW. Forced Dream says, literally, “everyone and everything”.

If you did houserule it otherwise, it would create a lot of paradoxes as far as interplanar interactions go. For example, you detonate a reset in Baator and Baator's last, say, year of history is undone, without the histories of other planes being altered. So the army launched from Baator to the Abyss during that time still showed up promptly to its battle. But now Baator has that entire army at its disposal again, even though many of the soldiers are still fighting in the Abyss. This would be abused to create infinite armies. The whole universe is a quintessence escalation. (Quintessence Escalation could be a sourcebook or strategy game based on this.) Whoever has the most psions wins.


Yeah, though, Anderson's version of the timeloop is highly gratuitous and there's no real reason for him to actually do it because even the traveler doesn't get to actually see any of the destroyed future. That's the point of the Astral Projection—with his spirit freed from his body, the traveler can acquire knowledge about the future while still frozen, and then as long as the spirit returned to the body before the body is freed, can keep that knowledge when time is reset—massively useful even if the future changes from that point on.

[Exegesis]

One bloody obvious solution: just become immortal and learn everything, and have the traveler under orders to, as soon as you wake him up, Mindrape you. It only takes a swift action to activate Forced Dream. He even has a move action to run over to where you are, or to have entered the time capsule himself, if you're that lazy.

BTW, re Astral Projection. It could be ruled that your Astrally Projected body continues to be under the effects of Forced Dream—but I don't think that's RAW: all Astral Projection specifies is an "astral copy" of yourself—if anything, assuming it duplicates your body, much less your possessions, it should copy buff spells as well. So your astral form might continue the timer on its Forced Dream buff, but your physical body's buff should be safely frozen.

A wild try at another method: Schism yourself, use your actual mind to True Mind Switch with something else, then cast Forced Dream on and quintessence dunk your former body, which should still host your schism. Your schism shares your psionic ability in a reduced form, so it's fair to assume the same is true of other mental faculties. Then, in your new body, you are or are free to become immortal and learn everything. The schism wakes and automatically has an imperfect but still useful copy of your mind—you're currently hiding out somewhere safe—even as it activates the Forced Dream and returns to right after you swapped out. At which point you either learn it, if the transmission is two way, or if knowledge only passes from you to your schism, you can just Mindrape your schism before it evaporates.



Edit: All invalidated, sorry for being dumb. Obviously the timewipe affects the traveler too.

[Flickerdart]

your former body, which should still host your schism
Damn, that's pretty slick - I initially assumed your splinter mind would come with you, but given that buffs are attached to bodies, and it literally says "two characters in one body" it's totally legit to Schism and then Mind Switch to inhabit two bodies at once.

I'm at work right now, and it's really hard to stop myself from gleefully rubbing my hands together.

[Exegesis]

Smear bodysuit and skimask with quintessence
=the Time Out Suit

They're tailored by Anderson Co's special workforce of Adamantine Body warforged, who can withstand the damage from partial contact.

It occurs to me you could have entire societies that function on time travel, just through the use of these suits.

“Yeah, I'm kind of bored of this era, think I'll sleep a century or so.” “Sir, you requested to be woken when a free house was available.” “Ma'am, your works are now universally adulated and also immortality has been invented.” ber ends.”

[Fax Celestis]

I read that part of the original thread, and it's a cool idea worth houseruling as viable, but I don't think it's RAW. Forced Dream says, literally, “everyone and everything”.

Not a houserule. Spells do not cross planar boundaries unless they explicitly say so, have Transdimensional Spell metamagic, or have the Force descriptor.

[Exegesis]

Interesting, source?

Would that cover powers? I mean of course that would be a logical extension but...

[Fax Celestis]

Transparency rules, so yes.

Inference:


Range
A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.

Personal
The spell affects only you.

Touch
You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Close
The spell reaches as far as 25 feet [≈ The length of a London Bus, Routemaster] away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.

Medium
The spell reaches as far as 100 feet [≈ length of longest blue whale measured, the largest animal] + 10 feet per caster level.

Long
The spell reaches as far as 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level.

Unlimited
The spell reaches anywhere on the same plane of existence.

Range Expressed in Feet
Some spells have no standard range category, just a range expressed in feet.

"Unlimited range" means "anywhere on the same plane", which means that even a spell that has the ability to travel trillions upon trillions of light years away cannot traverse planar boundaries.

Furthermore:

Coexistent Planes
If a link between two planes can be created at any point, the two planes are coexistent. These planes overlap each other completely. A coexistent plane can be reached from anywhere on the plane it overlaps. When moving on a coexistent plane, it is often possible to see into or interact with the plane it coexists with.

However:

Normal magic. Spells function normally on the Ethereal Plane, though they do not cross into the Material Plane. The only exceptions are spells and spell-like abilities that have the force descriptor and abjuration spells that affect ethereal beings. Spellcasters on the Material Plane must have some way to detect foes on the Ethereal Plane before targeting them with force-based spells, of course. While it's possible to hit ethereal enemies with a force spell cast on the Material Plane, the reverse isn't possible. No magical attacks cross from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane, including force attacks.

And:

Can I teleport into or out of an extradimensional space, such as that created by Mordenkainen’s magnificent mansion or a portable hole?

No. Such spaces are considered to be on another plane, and thus can’t be reached by teleport since that spell specifically states that interplanar travel isn’t possible.

An effect that allowed interplanar travel would allow you to travel from an extradimensional space to another plane (such as from within a magnificent mansion to the Material Plane).

Theoretically, even the reverse might be true (transport from the Material Plane into a rope trick, for example), although this is certainly trickier. An extradimensional space isn’t actually a “plane,” per se, so any spell that takes you to a specific plane wouldn’t necessarily succeed. It’s probably easiest to say that such effects don’t function unless somehow specifically designed to do so—after all, who really wants to open up his portable hole to find the angry lich archmage waiting to ambush him?


Assuming I know where it is, can I target an ethereal creature from the Material Plane with spells? My DM says I don’t have line of effect for my spell because the creature is on another plane, but the DMG gives magic missile as an example of a spell that can affect ethereal targets.

Since force effects from or on the Material Plane are specifically defined as being able to affect ethereal creatures, they are treated as having line of effect to an ethereal foe even though the foe is technically on another plane. The same is true of gaze attacks and abjuration effects. Of course, you still have to be able to see the ethereal foe to specifically target it with magic missile or a gaze attack (spells or effects that don’t require specific targets function normally even if you can’t see the ethereal foe).


If force effects can hurt an ethereal creature from the Material Plane, does the reverse hold true? Can an ethereal creature attack creatures on the Material Plane with force effects? If they can, can they target them through walls and other physical barriers that exist on the Material Plane?

No magical attacks cross from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane, including force effects, unless the effect specifically allows such to occur (such as the ghost’s malevolence power).

And and:

Benefit: A transdimensional spell has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space in the spell's area. Such creatures include ethereal creatures, creatures that are blinking or shadow walking, manifested ghosts, and creatures within the extradimensional space of a rope trick, portable hole, or familiar pocket.

You must be able to perceive a creature to target it with a transdimensional spell, but you do not need to perceive a creature to catch it in the area of a burst, cone, emanation, or spread.

A transdimensional spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Normal: Only force spells and effects can affect ethereal creatures, and no Material Plane attack affects creatures on the Plane of Shadow or in an enclosed extradimensional space. There is a 50% chance that any spell other than a force effect fails against an incorporeal creature.
This feat is from Complete Arcane. There is a psionic version in Complete Psionics.

[Exegesis]

Pretty fair inference. Thanks.

Since all the outsiders would be trying to clone themselves by hopping planes and resetting their origin plane, power points and plane shifting ability are apparently the currency of power. If you allowed strongheart vest + ability burn for infinite power points and so infinite of all three, the only resource becomes psions themselves; you can imagine a Great Cosmic Equilibrium in which every turn every plane is reset. All that's necessary is a turn in which at least one traveler per plane is unable to be killed. Eventually, something will happen that upsets this stasis—for example, by pure chance all the traveler-awakeners on a single plane malfunction, allowing those travelers to be tossed to another plane. Then the one plane which has awakened is filled with endless copies of every able-to-plane-shift being in the Great Wheel. But all it takes is 2x more wishes than the number of travelers on a single plane (one to be near them, one to boot them off the plane) to defrost it, which as we know is easy with ice assassin solars—but spell slots, unlike power points, are limited, so here's there's a possibility of more complexity. You always want the plane on which you were last turn to be reset, but you are also in a complex net of enemies and alliances. So this infinite cosmic foosball might actually generate an interesting, shifting pattern of clone armies.

Whenever a plane is freed, you can teleport there and destroy as much quintessence as possible and it will be removed. If done en masse this will easily outpace the creation of quintessence. This would rapidly deplete the universe's ability to reset itself. Though, anyone who chooses to spend their turn doing this is likely to lose. So those who want to end this stasis would tend to be pruned.

[kardar233]

It would be interesting to have a setting dominated by quintessence save points, where history is only "set" up to the earliest point at which there are no time capsules. Everyone who can just pumps out quintessence pods and rerolls history when something goes badly for them. The timeline is constantly being shaken and everything happens many times, leaving no trace. If quintessence demiplanes, or altered time demiplanes, existed this could be taken to insane levels. If any of the gods are omniscient they'd probably become travelers themselves.

If you want to see what fighting a war under these circumstances would be like, check out the RTS Achron. I recommend having a good supply of headache meds, though.

[Exegesis]

That looks fascinating.

Just want to point out that you could reasonably read a specifictrumpsgeneral into Forced Dream's "everyone and everything", so this could be worked either way.