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Misat
2007-03-27, 02:36 PM
I plan on running the premade adventure for a group of...4-5?...I want death, specifically the players deaths. I don't want too many of them however because making new characters takes hours during which most of them need help from me. I don't plan on them playing spellcasters, I think it's a monk/spellsword/something/something/something...will type more later.

Assassinfox
2007-03-27, 02:38 PM
So, you're running a Ravenloft game with the simple intent of putting the players through the meatgrinder? It's antics like that that give Ravenloft a bad rep. :smallannoyed:

Lapak
2007-03-27, 02:46 PM
Did you have a question, Misat, or were you just telling us that you were doing this, or what?

Misat
2007-03-27, 03:39 PM
I plan on running the premade adventure for a group of...4-5?...I want death, specifically the players deaths. I don't want too many of them however because making new characters takes hours during which most of them need help from me. I don't plan on them playing spellcasters, I think it's a monk/spellsword/something/something/something...will type more later.

Sorry, I had to run out of the room with the ringing of the bell and what not.
Anways I was wondering if anyone had run said adventure and therefore knew anything that would help me prepare for running it. I've never done a premade adventure so I'm unsure as to what I do in order to prepare. Also I'm pretty lazy, not the best DM but no one else wants to do it, so that may be why I'm posting here. I don't know exactly what I'm asking for other than simple general addvice. I just want to know if there is anything I should do to customize it to a party without spellcasters of any real merit.

Assassinfox
2007-03-27, 03:45 PM
Well, first off, if you're running a Ravenloft adventure, don't think of it as your "License to Kill", because that is the quickest way to make your players angry at you.

Misat
2007-03-27, 03:54 PM
Well, first off, if you're running a Ravenloft adventure, don't think of it as your "License to Kill", because that is the quickest way to make your players angry at you.

When I say death I don't mean constant killing, I mean "No, if you act like idiots and don't think you will die." This is only because until now we've played DnD really easily with quests that were simple enough not to die from. I think we've had maybe one casualty, not counting one suicidal maniac who jumped off a roof to impale an enemy. So yes, I want to make it harder, but not completely impossible like I before implied.

Assassinfox
2007-03-27, 03:55 PM
When I say death I don't mean constant killing, I mean "No, if you act like idiots and don't think you will die." This is only because until now we've played DnD really easily with quests that were simple enough not to die from. I think we've had maybe one casualty, not counting one suicidal maniac who jumped off a roof to impale an enemy. So yes, I want to make it harder, but not completely impossible like I before implied.

Ooooh, okay. I got the wrong impression from your first post, then. You seem to have the right attitude in mind. :smallbiggrin:

ampcptlogic
2007-03-27, 03:57 PM
Is there a specific module you're thinking about? You don't seem to have mentioned one.

I've never played Ravenloft, but it strikes me as a campaign setting where "think or die" is already axiomatic.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-27, 03:57 PM
Ravenloft is the adventure land for DM's. The only person that wins is the DM's, the only one to get items is the DM...its like Soviet russia...In Ravenloft DM screws you....

Assassinfox
2007-03-27, 04:04 PM
Ravenloft is the adventure land for DM's. The only person that wins is the DM's, the only one to get items is the DM...its like Soviet russia...In Ravenloft DM screws you....

Have you ever read any Ravenloft books or are you just saying what you heard from someone else who heard from someone else who heard from someone else?

Ravenloft has a problem with DMs thinking "Horror = Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies", but it's not meant to be a PC grinder.

EvilElitest
2007-03-27, 04:33 PM
Are you talking about Ravenloft adventure or the champain settings?
from,
EE

Forks
2007-03-27, 06:43 PM
All I have to say is...save or DIE!

You dont really need any help in killing some of your PCs. In fact, theres a pretty good chance they'll die on their own even if they're smart.

Im assuming you're using the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft adventure, since you say you're lazy. :P

Innis Cabal
2007-03-27, 06:46 PM
No i am not taking my statements from conjecture. I have played many Ravenloft games and none have ended well. It was not the fact that the DM thought "Rocks fall you die" as you imply it was the parties simply did not have the resources to keep themselves alive long enough to accomplish anything
I have all the original adventures and the 3. editions done by white worlg. Despite it not being a "PC Grinder" and game can be one, it all depends on the DM. No game is meant to kill as many PC's as possible, thats poor DMing, but thats how some people play

Assassinfox
2007-03-27, 06:58 PM
No i am not taking my statements from conjecture. I have played many Ravenloft games and none have ended well. It was not the fact that the DM thought "Rocks fall you die" as you imply it was the parties simply did not have the resources to keep themselves alive long enough to accomplish anything
I have all the original adventures and the 3. editions done by white worlg. Despite it not being a "PC Grinder" and game can be one, it all depends on the DM. No game is meant to kill as many PC's as possible, thats poor DMing, but thats how some people play

Errrr, then what's your beef with the setting?

Innis Cabal
2007-03-27, 07:01 PM
did i say i had beef with it? Becuase i dont have beef with games, thats just silly. I was merely stating an opinion that was created by many years of playing good D&D mixed with very bad Ravenloft play...nothing more

Assassinfox
2007-03-27, 07:04 PM
did i say i had beef with it? Becuase i dont have beef with games, thats just silly. I was merely stating an opinion that was created by many years of playing good D&D mixed with very bad Ravenloft play...nothing more

I'm still confused about your opinion. Are you saying it's a DM's tool to screw players over? Or that it's player unfriendly? Or was that initial post just a joke?

Innis Cabal
2007-03-27, 07:53 PM
part joke part player unfriendly

EvilElitest
2007-03-27, 07:55 PM
I think what is being asked for, if this is Raven loft champain setting. yes, the mortaily rate is higher. The odds of players doing dumb things and dying are higher. Big, scary, dangours world here. Not a PC gridner though
from,
EE

Assassinfox
2007-03-27, 07:56 PM
part joke part player unfriendly

Oh, okay. The internet is such a difficult medium for humor. :smallwink:

Overlard
2007-03-28, 07:56 AM
I'm running a Ravenloft campaign at the moment, and it's going quite well. We've only had death so far (the ranger with favoured enemy: undead who only had time to say "Hey, that looks like a bodak." before he collapsed). And yet, the players are terrified of what's around the next corner. So far they've only fought humans, the aforementioned bodak and some fiendish animals, but the conspiracy, the feeling of always being 2 steps behind, and the person leading them on the merry dance is so much more powerful than them has them doubting themselves at every turn - and this is from a group of players who normally kick the door in and mow down what's in front of them.

My advice for Ravenloft:

Low power - I can't emphasise this enough. 24 point buy is enough (despite player complaints about being useless). I didn't allow them to spend any more than 20% of their starting gold on a single magic item either. There's no place to buy off-the-rack magic items either, so chances are you're never going to get your hands on that +3 holy bastard sword you want so much. When you feel you're underpowered and underequipped, then those easy challenges you used to breeze through suddenly become a lot more deadly.

Change monster descriptions around - There's a load of good monsters out there, but not many of them fit in Ravenloft very well. But it's amazing how much a quick rewrite of their physical appearance lets them look like odd humans, or appropriate abominations. Change orcs into feral humans with sharpened teeth and a blood-curdling scream as they run out of the darkness at your campsite, and watch your players panic.

Temptation - don't corrupt your players, but definitely give them the tools to do it themselves. Reward them for tasks that would be considered neutral at best, but let good be its own reward. When my player's LG cleric suddenly changed to LN, he complained. Then I rattled off the list of things he had done recently, small acts that were definitely not in keeping with his good nature. He had no idea that he had done so much ("They didn't seem so bad at the time..."). The CN rogue was so close to dropping to evil too...

Asaris
2007-03-28, 08:20 AM
I'm running Expedition to Castle Ravenloft right now, and enjoying it so far (though it's been fairly easy for the players up until now -- curse you Cleric of Pelor!) My advice is to not be afraid to disallow classes/feats/whatever that you feel are either inappropriate or overpowered. Overlard's advice is pretty good -- my guidelines for character creation were pretty similar, except I gave them a 28 point buy and allowed them to spend up to 33% of their starting gold on one item. I've only run it once so far (second session is tonight), so we'll see how it goes. I did knock the warmage down to 1 constitution, so I'm off to a good start :D

And this probably goes without saying, but don't forget to prepare the upcoming encounters beforehand. Good tactics on the part of the monsters, where appropriate, can really help.

Logos7
2007-03-28, 08:23 AM
I think you need to remember that as the dark power's that be, Your job is two things

Tempting and Pruning

The Dark Power's that be never Kill anyone really, They do put people on collission courses however. Trying to do good acts put you on a collission course with strahd in barovia, it's inevitable if played correctly, it railroading otherwise.

if strahd happens to have his border effect up from just after the pc's leave until he's defeated and want the PC's out , well sure that's you removing options from the PC's but it's not nearly as savage as if he poison's all the well water and gatherr's his forces to kill the PC's after they start adventuring with a certain so and so, and all thier anti undead measures fail because of a massive unhallow/dispell set on them.

that's a grinder

Make a nice story, tempt people to do evil and stupid things, and then start ratcheting up the tension

Logos

Misat
2007-03-28, 02:09 PM
Thanks for those last three posts in particular. They really helped me realize that I need to do some changes. I'm thinking that, since I allowed rolling for abilities this time, when a character dies the new one that is made will be done using point buy of probably 28. In a group where we get nothing lower than 10 and at least one 18, d6s love me and those that I've taught to play DnD, point buy is like a dagger slicing into their hearts, but that's ok because they won't notice the pain too much in comparison to their characters just being ripped apart.

ravenkith
2007-03-28, 02:37 PM
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is a nightmare adventure for players in a lot of regards.

From the party standpoint: If you don't bring along at least one Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor, it makes for a pretty rough time overall. If you also don't have arcane capabilities, you're begging to get whacked/dominated/paralyzed for three days/level drained/imprisoned and/or eaten.

As a DM: The head bad guy is a real smarty in this one. Play that up, use hit and run tactics, ambush the players when they try to rest.

There's nothing wrong with coming in, dropping some level drain, and going out the window. It's actually pretty fun, and imparts that feeling of "oh crap, I'm going to die" in the players pretty well, too.

Moral Wiz
2007-03-28, 02:58 PM
Misat, have you any plans to use EtCR to get your players into the Ravenloft campaign setting, or are you just doing a one off? It is a great setting (visit www.fraternityofshadows.com, it's the main fan site, and a good one) and I really recomend it.

As for EtCR, the others have pretty much summed it up.

UglyPanda
2007-03-28, 03:04 PM
Ravenloft is a horror setting, meaning you should follow the standard rules for DMing horror:
-Don't let the PCs know any more than they need to survive, and sometimes not even then.
-Don't tell them what it is, describe it.
-Fighting is not scary. If the monster attacks, that means it exists and they have a chance to win. Never let the PCs think they can simply kill it.
-Do not let the PCs directly engage anything until you want them to.
-Make the PCs think their senses are fooling them.

The Ravenloft setting is meant for the players to suffer. It's similar to purgatory, only it's the DM's job to keep you from leaving. It should not be confused with the Ravenloft module it is based off of.

ravenkith
2007-03-28, 03:15 PM
The Ravenloft setting is meant for the players to suffer. It's similar to purgatory, only it's the DM's job to keep you from leaving. It should not be confused with the Ravenloft module it is based off of.


QFT, if you're talking about ETCR.

But my party still made the DM cry, between a master specialist abjurer and a radiant serant of pelor, a druid and a gish that abused the mage armor counts houserule for abjurant champion to lovely benefit.

Aquillion
2007-03-28, 03:20 PM
No game is meant to kill as many PC's as possible, thats poor DMing, but thats how some people playAhem. I take it you've never played Paranoia.

...or Call of Cthulu, I guess, but that's a bit different. Players will die at an alarming rate in Cthulu if you're playing it right, but that isn't really the point... whereas in Paranoia, producing as many funny deaths as possible is one of the main points of the game.

Accolon
2007-03-28, 05:05 PM
Wow. Ravenloft is one of my favorite settings. I found that it is low magic, low power, high role play, high coolness. I started my characters at 2nd level with one minor magic item each and the campaign was just awesome. There will be character deaths, but there are in every setting. To play Ravenloft I think you have to like to DM smart undead and Jack the Ripper type smart, vicious evilness. The new Castle Strahd adventure is pretty good too. Just ran players through part of that in my Eberron camp. It was great.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-28, 05:09 PM
i ran it a while ago, everyone ganged up on Strahds honey bun and killed her.....the game was short....

Assassinfox
2007-03-28, 05:33 PM
i ran it a while ago, everyone ganged up on Strahds honey bun and killed her.....the game was short....

At which point you slap the DM hammer on them and turn all their characters into Darklords.

Misat
2007-03-29, 06:33 AM
To clarify something, I am using the nice shiny book Castle Ravenloft (Expidition to or something). I don't know what the campaign setting is, but that sounds very interesting in deed. Now too much information:
Player one - I've been playing with him longest, and he's some weird medium between a role player and a guy in it for the criticals. (Playing a swordsage)
Player two - Openly against role playling since it will lose him 'man points,' but we're working on that. (Cleric/something with luck)
Player three - Converted to role playerism after a sit in with another group of mine, and has since begun deteriorating back. (Rogue)
Player four - His first time playing DnD so not expecting any great characterization, but he did shock me when he picked up some magic wings and asked if they could be bone wings that erupt from his back. So he's a monk that enjoys pleasant flights, and descriptive drop kicks from the sky. He's also an avid wrestler guy so he enjoys fight scenes.
Player five - Female LARPer who we've played with once before and hated, but now we are going to have her back. Some sort of manipulator or another. She is probably better at role playing than anyone else I play with so we'll see how fast she picks DnD up.

That's the party break down if it helps at all. I don't want to run something that everyone will hate, but I do want to run something with more challenge than loot.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-03-29, 06:40 AM
Every now and then, just ask a random player to roll a save- have them tell you the result, write it down, and then keep on playing. Over time that can get really spooky, but you have to use it sparingly.

Asaris
2007-03-29, 10:43 AM
Another, similar point is to have them make spot checks every once in a while.

UglyPanda
2007-03-29, 10:49 AM
I forgot something important, never stop rolling your d20. Write it down if the roll is meaningful, just briefly look at it if it's not. Occasionally write down the number when it's not. You're going to be making a lot of spot checks and save rolls throughout the campaign, and it's important that your players don't know when you roll for something important, because that means there is something they have to look out for, which sets them raring for a fight.

Accolon
2007-03-30, 10:40 AM
Play Strahd like he knows everything the party is going to do. ANd make the undead they fight smarter too: use flank and other things even if the monsters technically can't. Also anytime there is something that could be creepy or eerie or strange, have them make a Dread check: a Will save at a DC 15-17: failure equals Shaken: -2 to all rolls with a d20. Once they're Shaken, have them make another Dread check and if they fail bump them to Panicked. They'll get the picture. Do this everytime Strahd or one of his boys is around and they'll learn soon enough.

UglyPanda
2007-03-30, 01:50 PM
You shouldn't force players to make fear checks for no reason. Having your character panicked half the time pisses off the players rather than scares them. 90% of the fear should be from the players themselves, not their characters.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-03-30, 08:18 PM
I never said make them have fear checks all the time. However, being asked to roll a save for no apparent reason can become very spooky, especially in a dark room with the right music playing.