Is this get rich quick scheme legal?

[RoboEmperor]

Dungeon Master's Guide about NPC spellcasters

the NPC charges them 10gp per spell level x her caster level

So lets say you're a 5th level wizard. You have 5/4/3/2 spells. If you cast all those spells for other people, you'd make
5gp * 1 * 5 * 5 + 10gp * 1 * 5 * 4 + 10gp * 2 * 5 * 3 + 10gp * 3 * 5 * 2 = 125gp + 200gp + 300gp + 300gp = 925gp a day.

So can you spend like a month doing this at level 5 and make 30 * 925 = 27750gp and buy some nice gear for your adventures? Assuming you're in a big city, which means you'll always have more customers than you can manage. Also, you can leave all your spell slots empty and memorize the requested spells the customers want.

[Renen]

How do you think all those NPCs are so rich?
But a DM would obviously not let you do this.

[aleucard]

RAW legal, but don't expect to be able to use it without pissing off the DM. If you want to both use this and not get rocks dropped on the character, restrict your spending past WBL to things that don't directly benefit you the way gear does. It'd be nice for pimping out your wizard's tower, for instance.

[Ruethgar]

Also note that NPCs sell things for x2 the price that PCs can. Furthermore you need to take into account the available gold in a particular town. Trying to do this in a thorp for example nets you a grand total 40g, metropolis 100,000g. Also the price fluctuates depending on supply between -20% and +100% so a magical thorp is only getting you 32g.

[Ksheep]

But how much could a 5th level adventurer expect to get per day of dungeon crawling? According to the DMG, you should expect to get ~1,600 GP worth of treasure per encounter at 5th level. Of course, you might need to split this with the party, but you can easily have multiple encounters per day, and therefore make more than you would just sitting around hoping someone buys your higher level spells that day. Sure, there's a bit more risk involved, but more gain.

Alternatively, just wait until you're 7th level (or use some method to get 4th level spells earlier) and cast Wall of Salt (from Sandstorm). You can now create salt out of nothing, and it's permanent (since the spell duration is Instantaneous). At 7th level, you now have a 7 inch thick wall, 5 feet tall, and 35 feet long. That's 102 cubic feet of salt. That comes out to 13,756 pounds of salt. If you look at the Trade Goods table, you will find salt is there. Trade goods sell for 100% of their value, and salt sells for 5 GP per pound. You've just made 68,780 GP worth of salt out of thin air, for the low price of a single 4th level spell and a crystal of rock salt (as a material component).

[Extra Anchovies]

The thing is, the price for spellcasting is given, but I don't think there are folks who cast for a living so much as there are folks who do other things for a living (scribe, priest, etc), cast on the side, and might be willing to cast a spell for you if you pay them enough.

Me, I don't know why NPC casting is so pricey. Spell slots are an infinitely renewable resource, it's the ultimate green energy! Until someone kills Mystra.

[RoboEmperor]

Me, I don't know why NPC casting is so pricey. Spell slots are an infinitely renewable resource, it's the ultimate green energy! Until someone kills Mystra.

Labor costs. Technically everything is labor fees. Materials are the price of labor of the guy who got those materials.

Wall of salt seems nice :)

[Extra Anchovies]

Labor costs. Technically everything is labor fees. Materials are the price of labor of the guy who got those materials.

Wall of salt seems nice :)

Labor? What if it's a sorcerer, or a favored soul? They just have those spell slots, and didn't do much of anything to get them! Or the things they did do (e.g. adventuring), they already got their money's worth from.

Eh, I just don't like it.

[JDL]

I asked to do the same in one game, and my DM ruled that each day of attempting to exchange spells for gold requires a Profession: Spellcaster check, with DC 10 for level 0 spells, DC 15 for level 1 spells, etc. Then roll separately for each spell level to determine how many spells of that level I sold per day (1d6 if I have 6 level 0 spells, etc.)

[Extra Anchovies]

I asked to do the same in one game, and my DM ruled that each day of attempting to exchange spells for gold requires a Profession: Spellcaster check, with DC 10 for level 0 spells, DC 15 for level 1 spells, etc. Then roll separately for each spell level to determine how many spells of that level I sold per day (1d6 if I have 6 level 0 spells, etc.)

Indeed. There's a huge difference between having supply and having demand. Just because you have the slots doesn't mean there's a buyer.

[TiaC]

Well, we can't give legal advice on these forums, so...:smalltongue:

[RoboEmperor]

Indeed. There's a huge difference between having supply and having demand. Just because you have the slots doesn't mean there's a buyer.

I said assume to be in a metropolis D:<
Metropolis = everything in high demand, or at least mediocre demand (high demand implies you can charge more than the standard).
That's why property there is expensive, and why you see hundreds of same types of stores every block.

edit: I said assume to be in a big city, but I meant metropolis.

This was just food for thought. I won't be doing this in-game unless I want to do something crazy like build a construct army.

[Crake]

I said assume to be in a metropolis D:<
Metropolis = everything in high demand, or at least mediocre demand (high demand implies you can charge more than the standard).
That's why property there is expensive, and why you see hundreds of same types of stores every block.

edit: I said assume to be in a big city, but I meant metropolis.

This was just food for thought. I won't be doing this in-game unless I want to do something crazy like build a construct army.

If you want to build a construct army, you'll want to find a more efficient way of making money rather than selling off your spell slots.

[atemu1234]

If I was DM, sure I'd allow it, with the following:
-Perform (Sales Pitch) for getting people to show up to a nonestablished business.
-Profession (Spellcaster) to actually make people happy with what they got.
-Profession (Mathematician) to figure out income after local taxes.
-Congratulations, after the following deductions, you've lost 1/2 of the original total, followed by -10% for the stipend for living in the metropolis.
-Now come the thieves' guilds dues...

[Sewercop]

No problem selling the spells really.. The problem becomes the players problem when competing non magical guilds or merchants gets fed up. Or competing wizards etc.

Sell all your slots and see how fun it is to be a 5th lvl wizard with angry people around.
At lvl 5.. You dont want to be noticed as a wizard. Sell your slots and you will be noticed.

Why not use a variation of the shop rules in the dmg2 i think. Use caster level as the skill check. Or profession wizard ? If you are just after easy money... unseen workers, craft shennaningans, wall of salt, fabricate on higher lvls etc

Breaking the bank is trivial.. but you break the game in many instances as well.
In our group we had to put down a rule that you cant use gear worth more than up to two levels above you on the wbl chart on any given day. And even that is very nice towards the player. The leadership crafter with aid another, aid another amulets that add +1, the race that adds another +1, the class i forgot the name of that add another +1 cohort, spells that 20+15+ caster level shennanigans and bard spell that adds half+ competence item, + master work tool from some setting i forgot now that adds +10(yes legal, we used all weird books wich were 3.5 legal),
etc etc all he could find.

and that is the worst way he could make money.

[SowZ]

The issue here is selling all your product. You have to line up buyers. You have to have a demand for each spell that was prepared. The person with that demand has to know you are selling that very same day. You could get around this by having people put reservations for your spell slots ahead of time, but you will need a steady customer base and repeat customers established and people will expect a discount. Not only for being loyal customers, but for scheduling in advance.

You need advertising and bookkeepers. You also have the problem that restaurants have. Excess inventory cannot be sold later, but must be thrown away. But your problem is even worse because 100% of your inventory must be sold every day. If customers buy in bulk, or give you steady employment, (like a king who has you cast all your spells for him a day,) they will expect a significant discount. And they should get such a discount.

I'm sure there would be no problem finding someone who wanted a spell cast every day. But finding someone who wants said spell and is willing to pay the equivalent of tens of thousands of dollars is another thing entirely. If you want to dispatch all your inventory, you will need to charge significantly less. The DMG is not listing the actual value of the spellcasting. Instead, they are listing the cost of a short sale. That wizard is probably booked out for months, so he has to knock one of his customers back a day. (Meaning someone tomorrow will be bumped back and so on and so forth.) It may be weeks until his schedule is fixed. He will have to give discounts/partial refunds to dozens of clients. Not to mention the inconvenience of not having planned on you as a client. Try to call up a band the morning of a party. Tell them you need them to play in a few hours. They will charge substantially more than usual.

Also, supply and demand. The Wizard will charge whatever he can get away with charging. To have a consistent consumer base in a city with all inventory sold, he has to charge a reasonable sum. But an adventurer comes into town, only he can cast the spell, the adventurers probably have some dire quest and thousands upon thousands of gold? He can charge an absurd sum and no one can argue.

As a DM, I'd say after expenses you could make no more than 1/10th of the DMG suggestion as a sustainable business model. Even then, that would only be if you are in a big town, have been set up for a while, are respected, and have a good head for business management. I find this emminently reasonable from an economic perspective and you are still an incredibly wealthy man.

Let's compare this to magic item prices. Let's use a 4th level wizard selling a 2nd level spell slot. That's 80 gp for a casting. You could put a lvl 2 spell into a command word belt castable 1/day with 50 charges. If this is custom for a specific customer, you can specify class and a necessary skill. If the wizard is favored and in a guild and has appropriate crafting feats he could make this item for 260 gold. Let's not assume he has the perfect build, though, and say 350 gold. If he sells it for 700 gp, that's about 14gp per casting. But you get the added convenience of not needing the wizard each time, not scheduling in advance, and you are paying for more of the wizards time since he spent 8 hours crafting it and some XP. By all accounts, the magic item should be a more expensive way to get the spells cost. Why is it so much cheaper? Because you are buying in bulk? The reason bulk buying is cheaper is because it saves the provider time to find more buyers. But this objectively costs him time. If we go with my houserule, the 2nd level spell would cost 8 gp if you go through typical channels. Far more reasonable. The world makes sense again. (You will not be able to sell all of your spell slots everyday with such absurd prices as 80gp for a 2nd level spell in a D&D setting.)

[Sewercop]

As a DM, I'd say after expenses you could make no more than 1/10th of the DMG suggestion as a sustainable business model. Even then, that would only be if you are in a big town, have been set up for a while, are respected, and have a good head for business management. I find this emminently reasonable from an economic perspective and you are still an incredibly wealthy man.


I would like to see your reason for this. The rules are pretty clear for selling stuff and how much a city\hamlet\etc has to use. 1\10 is taking a piss out of your player. Why not say you prefer him not to break the wbl instead and offer him a shop based on the rules that exist?

Do you give players 1\10th of selling an item aswell?

[SowZ]

I would like to see your reason for this. The rules are pretty clear for selling stuff and how much a city\hamlet\etc has to use. 1\10 is taking a piss out of your player. Why not say you prefer him not to break the wbl instead and offer him a shop based on the rules that exist?

Do you give players 1\10th of selling an item aswell?

I explained in great detail why selling a single spell slot in a short sale to a passing adventurer should cost substantially more than consistently selling all your spell slots in a city that can maintain paying you this much for your services. It makes absolutely zero economic sense that in a D&D economy a wizard could find buyers like that every day. It would be like a porsche shop selling 98 sports cars a day. It's nonsense.

I would let the player sell their spell slot at full price, but they are only going to find 1 or 2 customers a day. If a player passes through a town and has a high level spell slot, he may be able to find a buyer. He won't be able to consistently do this at anywhere near full price.

They could just use the shop rules, too, but they could actually make more with a spell shop at 1/10th price. How is it unfair to the players to allow them to make more money?

As for giving players money for selling an item, I will base the value of the item on the suggested price in the books, the demand for that item, and the surrounding economy. If they tried to sell a Trident of Fish command to a poor landlocked mining village, he may get 1/20th it's value. Then again, he might get much more than the suggested price in a prosperous fishing town with a shark problem.

[Sewercop]

Well for your players sake i hope you tell them this before the game starts.

The thing is that economics makes no sense in d&d at all. Not even the slightest. All you can hope for are players that have no clue or interest in breaking the bank. If they break the bank, hope they are gentlemen and don`t start a race with the gm.

Your way is less coherent then the rules that exist. You just screw mundanes even more.
It is just made up on the fly for every case I suppose?

[Lanson]

Speaking from experience, microeconomics is no fun irl, why would we want it in our games? It is fast easier to make a gentleman's agreement beforehand.

[SowZ]

Well for your players sake i hope you tell them this before the game starts.

The thing is that economics makes no sense in d&d at all. Not even the slightest. All you can hope for are players that have no clue or interest in breaking the bank. If they break the bank, hope they are gentlemen and don`t start a race with the gm.

Your way is less coherent then the rules that exist. You just screw mundanes even more.
It is just made up on the fly for every case I suppose?

How does explicitly disallowing a caster from making 1000 gp a day for doing nothing dangerous screw over mundanes even more? And how is examining the economics of a region less coherent than having the prices of all items be exactly the same at all times everywhere in the world? Also, it is not made up on the fly, but session to session yes. I consider the economy of every area my players visit. What are there primary exports and imports? What is the overall health of this economy? What cutting edge technologies are in use and which ones haven't made it here?

I consider all these things and adjust the NPCs, equipment of guards, wealth in banks and shops, and price of goods accordingly. I fail to see why this is unreasonable.


Speaking from experience, microeconomics is no fun irl, why would we want it in our games? It is fast easier to make a gentleman's agreement beforehand.

I don't ask my players to do it. It's all in my notes and my adjudication. It creates a world with higher verisimilitude. There are also different dialects to languages and such. I consider the culture and sometimes ask my anthropologist friend about how various environmental factors might effect the morals and social standards of a region. I also make magic a lot more uncommon and spellcasters above level 5 nearly unheard of, because otherwise the feudal system would completely break down Tippy style. Some people prefer playing in a world that makes more sense, others are fine hand-waving the setting. I am the former.

[Knaight]

I said assume to be in a metropolis D:<
Metropolis = everything in high demand, or at least mediocre demand (high demand implies you can charge more than the standard).
That's why property there is expensive, and why you see hundreds of same types of stores every block.

In which case there are likely people routinely buying all of the spell slots you have and more, but not necessarily buying them from you. Scaling up affects supply, and it's not like every store in a metropolis is inherently highly successful.

As for property being expensive in big cities, that isn't even necessarily the case for all of the city (there's the extreme of slums or ghettos where it is very much not the case), and where it is it often reflects more the kinds of work that are being done almost exclusively in cities and pay well than anything else, along with how minimal agricultural work is in cities.

Plus, from a more historical perspective, there's the matter of walled cities as defensive structures forcing everything to get packed in, driving prices up, plus people being willing to pay more to live in an area which is better proofed against raids and similar.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Dungeon Master's Guide about NPC spellcasters


So lets say you're a 5th level wizard. You have 5/4/3/2 spells. If you cast all those spells for other people, you'd make
5gp * 1 * 5 * 5 + 10gp * 1 * 5 * 4 + 10gp * 2 * 5 * 3 + 10gp * 3 * 5 * 2 = 125gp + 200gp + 300gp + 300gp = 925gp a day.

So can you spend like a month doing this at level 5 and make 30 * 925 = 27750gp and buy some nice gear for your adventures? Assuming you're in a metropolis, which means you'll always have more customers than you can manage. Also, you can leave all your spell slots empty and memorize the requested spells the customers want.

The highlighted is a grossly flawed assumption.

Most of the inhabitants of a city are 1st level commoners. Of the remaining several hundred people (yes, several hundred in a city of 25k), only a few dozen are actually going to be able to afford anything higher than a few cantrips or first level spells on a regular basis and of them only a handful will have any desire for your spellcasting services at all. Then there's the -other- two dozen or so novice spellcasters that you have to compete with. Then there's the added complication of dealing with any regulatory body that might exists, say a spellcaster's guild.

Selling spells is just not a reliable business model until and unless you can set up clientèle in multiple major cities and do so with the blessing of those cities power centers or on the black market. It's a fine character goal for mid-level play but it's no "get rich quick" scheme. Even then it's not going to get you the metric crap-load of cash you're looking for between modest demand and paying your employees.

[SowZ]

The highlighted is a grossly flawed assumption.

Most of the inhabitants of a city are 1st level commoners. Of the remaining several hundred people (yes, several hundred in a city of 25k), only a few dozen are actually going to be able to afford anything higher than a few cantrips or first level spells on a regular basis and of them only a handful will have any desire for your spellcasting services at all. Then there's the -other- two dozen or so novice spellcasters that you have to compete with. Then there's the added complication of dealing with any regulatory body that might exists, say a spellcaster's guild.

Selling spells is just not a reliable business model until and unless you can set up clientèle in multiple major cities and do so with the blessing of those cities power centers or on the black market. It's a fine character goal for mid-level play but it's no "get rich quick" scheme. Even then it's not going to get you the metric crap-load of cash you're looking for between modest demand and paying your employees.

Apparently lots of people object to considering such things as it complicates the game too much?

[Galen]

Assuming you're in a big city, which means you'll always have more customers than you can manage. Also, you can leave all your spell slots empty and memorize the requested spells the customers want.
Or possibly more competition than you can manage.

As a DM, I wouldn't outright say no to this plan, but maybe put a twist on it. Maybe he draws attention from someone. A demon in the guise of a benevolent patron, a competing wizard who doesn't like his toes stepped on, a master thief pretending to be a customer but really scouting his next mark, a band of ruffians demanding protection money ("nice spellcasting service you got there, would be a shame if something happened to it").

Or, maybe his spellcasting services tie him to a crime somehow (someone used a 1-minute-per-level Invisibility to quickly pull a string of thefts), and the city guard is breathing down his neck.

[Cruiser1]

There's a huge difference between having supply and having demand. Just because you have the slots doesn't mean there's a buyer.
Indeed. See this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17203903&postcount=26) for a RAW reference of how you usually can only sell a few spells each day, even in a metropolis, and that there are other expenses involved.

[nedz]

An alternative method


See a Wizard doing this
Wait until he has a good day
Mug him (He's just a commoner now)
Profit


The reason most Wizards don't use your trick is paranoia.

A Wizard who hasn't cast any spells today is more powerful than one who has.

So, essentially, you are weakening yourself for cash.

[SowZ]

An alternative method


See a Wizard doing this
Wait until he has a good day
Mug him (He's just a commoner now)
Profit


The reason most Wizards don't use your trick is paranoia.

A Wizard who hasn't cast any spells today is more powerful than one who has.

So, essentially, you are weakening yourself for cash.

One word. Wands.

[nedz]

One word. Wands.

Wizard with no spells + Wand < Wizard with plenty of spells + Wand.

Also, Wizard > Wand.

[SowZ]

Wizard with no spells + Wand < Wizard with plenty of spells + Wand.

Also, Wizard > Wand.

Sure, but all you need are wands to get you out of danger. Nerveskitter+Dimension Door is enough to escape the vast majority of would be muggers.

[Flickerdart]

Assuming you're in a big city, which means you'll always have more customers than you can manage.
Go open a shop, right now. Doesn't matter which kind, doesn't matter where. You'll find that it's far more difficult than you assume to get a clientele, especially when you have nothing to distinguish you from the established competition. Unless you have knowledge of extraordinarily powerful, rare, and popular spells that are also useful to the average nobleman, you're not going to make the rent on your shop, never mind turn a profit.

[Jack_Simth]

Dungeon Master's Guide about NPC spellcasters


So lets say you're a 5th level wizard. You have 5/4/3/2 spells. If you cast all those spells for other people, you'd make
5gp * 1 * 5 * 5 + 10gp * 1 * 5 * 4 + 10gp * 2 * 5 * 3 + 10gp * 3 * 5 * 2 = 125gp + 200gp + 300gp + 300gp = 925gp a day.

So can you spend like a month doing this at level 5 and make 30 * 925 = 27750gp and buy some nice gear for your adventures? Assuming you're in a big city, which means you'll always have more customers than you can manage. Also, you can leave all your spell slots empty and memorize the requested spells the customers want.

Generally speaking, there's not that much demand.

Most people have what they need to get by already - otherwise, they wouldn't be there anymore - or don't have the cash. Additionally, for most things, it's a lot less expensive to simply hire a laborer to do whatever job actually needed doing rather than hire a spellcaster. Sure, you can sell your spell slots... but you're not going to sell many. Make a profession(Spellcaster) check: After the various expenses, you get exactly the amount of gold specified by the Profession skill for your skill check result. On a good day, you successfully cast Mending at caster level 1 for someone who wanted a torn dress fixed in a hurry. The skill check goes for a week, and unless you've been investing into the skill fairly heavily, that's probably going to be it for your net income.

[nedz]

Sure, but all you need are wands to get you out of danger. Nerveskitter+Dimension Door is enough to escape the vast majority of would be muggers.

Level 4 wands are quite expensive which kind of spoils the get rich quick nature of the scheme, and probably out of WBL range for a level 5 Wizard — as per the OP. 21000gp+ is quite a barrier to entry in terms of capital requirements.

Also, the enemies you should be paranoid about are other Wizards.

[Galen]

Sure, but all you need are wands to get you out of danger. Nerveskitter+Dimension Door is enough to escape the vast majority of would be muggers.
I actually see a much better get-rich-quick scheme here.
Step 1: Start selling wands of Dimension Door (21,000 gp per wand!!) as "insurance" to naive wizards who believe in get-rich-quick schemes
Step 2: Send ruffians to threaten the owners of said wands. The ruffians don't really need to be powerful, since their only goal is to make the wand-user spend a charge to run away
Step 3: Repeat step 2 fifty times
Step 4: Once they run of charges, sell them another wand of Dimension Door for 21,000 gp!
Step 5: PROFIT!!!!!

[Tohsaka Rin]

Sigh. Don't you folks know how this works? You go for the obvious target market.

Steps as follows:

1) Acquire the spell Remove Disease

2) Enter into a contract with the local Brothel

3) Profit!

Obviously you're selling this spell to clients, as a service of/to the brothel. Keep both the clients AND the workers clean and healthy.

...Why do I think of these things? :smallfrown:

[Renen]

Be cancer mage.

"Oh hi, its very nice to meet you. Would you like to buy a cure disease spell? Why? Why because my handshake just gave you about 20 different ones."

[RoboEmperor]

In real life, go see how many dentists are in a populated downtown district. It's crazy! Same with convenience stores and fast food restaurants. And magic is rare in d&d, so magic is in high demand.

It all doesn't matter though, I got my answer

Yes you can do that, but the DM has a million ways to not let you do that. There ya go. :)

[Kelb_Panthera]

In real life, go see how many dentists are in a populated downtown district. It's crazy! Same with convenience stores and fast food restaurants. And magic is rare in d&d, so magic is in high demand.

It all doesn't matter though, I got my answer

Yes you can do that, but the DM has a million ways to not let you do that. There ya go. :)

Everyone has teeth. Not everyone -needs- magic and we live in a modern society with insurance to pay for treatments we couldn't begin to afford on our own.

Bad comparison is bad.

Any yutz can open a resturaunt but I've seen 3 fail in the same location in as many years right down town. Food is immensely cheaper than magic too.

Bad comparison is bad.

Convenience store. Really? When's the last time you went into a convenience store and dropped a month and a half's pay? A cantrip is 5gp. The average unskilled worker makes 1sp a day.

I'm sorry but you're running into a confluence of low demand, exclusive clientèle due to pricing, stiff competition, and zero marketing on your part. You will make virtually -no- money this way. This has nothing at all to do with a DM but simple marketing principles. If your DM thinks about it even just a tiny bit then logic alone will force him to say no unless you happen to be in the -wealthiest- city in the world where even the commoners use trade bars as pocket change.

[SowZ]

Everyone has teeth. Not everyone -needs- magic and we live in a modern society with insurance to pay for treatments we couldn't begin to afford on our own.

Bad comparison is bad.

Any yutz can open a resturaunt but I've seen 3 fail in the same location in as many years right down town. Food is immensely cheaper than magic too.

Bad comparison is bad.

Convenience store. Really? When's the last time you went into a convenience store and dropped a month and a half's pay? A cantrip is 5gp. The average unskilled worker makes 1sp a day.

I'm sorry but you're running into a confluence of low demand, exclusive clientèle due to pricing, stiff competition, and zero marketing on your part. You will make virtually -no- money this way. This has nothing at all to do with a DM but simple marketing principles. If your DM thinks about it even just a tiny bit then logic alone will force him to say no unless you happen to be in the -wealthiest- city in the world where even the commoners use trade bars as pocket change.

If you charged much more reasonable prices, I ball parked 1/10th earlier but that could change, had an established clientele, and booked spell slots out weeks in advance, I could see you being in high demand. Less so individuals, but more companies and businesses basing schedules around various spells they have cast a few times a quarter. Not to mention uses the government could have for you.

[RoboEmperor]

In a giant metropolis, according to demographics, wizards are very rare.

Now you could say everyone but the nobles are poor, and the nobles already have spellcasters, so you get no business.

You could also say there aren't enough wizards to fill everyone's magic needs, and everyone at least makes 1000gp a month, so you're always selling all your spells everyday. You can't tell me this can't be true, cause it's all up to the DM. No RAW says otherwise, maybe average wealth per commoner thing, but w.e. Maybe this is a super rich city of the chosen ones.

You could say the mayor of a small village needs a lot of mage armors to outfit their militia because the town lacks a blacksmith and traders are rare, so your business is sky high, although your payment might be in livestock, or the mayor is from a super rich family and started a village just because he wanted to be a mayor. So it's all up to the DM.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In a giant metropolis, according to demographics, wizards are very rare.

Now you could say everyone but the nobles are poor, and the nobles already have spellcasters, so you get no business.

You could also say there aren't enough wizards to fill everyone's magic needs. You can't tell me this can't be true, cause it's all up to the DM.

You could say the mayor of a small village needs a lot of mage armors to outfit their militia because the town lacks a blacksmith and traders are rare, so your business is sky high, although your payment might be in livestock, or the mayor is from a super rich family and started a village just because he wanted to be a mayor. So it's all up to the DM.

Over 90% of a population is 1st level commoners whose total net worth is about 11gp not counting their homes. Most of the remaining 10% are first level members of the other NPC classes who are worth as much as 900 in non-liquid assets comprised of their gear. In nearly all of those cases, income is nowhere near the necessary level to afford even occasional spellcasting at the lowest level. Your -entire- client base will be in the remaining ~1% of the population. 250 out of 25,000 people -might- occasionally have need of your services. Even amongst them only a handful will be able to afford more than your lowest level spells at all, much less with any frequency.

Saying that there is more demand than can reasonably be filled by the 2 dozen or so 1st level wizards in the city would represent such an absurd paradigm shift in the city's economy that it veritably boggles the mind.

[Renen]

Well once again: this is all dependent on the DM.
Cuz u know... Pun Pun is also legal...

[SowZ]

Over 90% of a population is 1st level commoners whose total net worth is about 11gp not counting their homes. Most of the remaining 10% are first level members of the other NPC classes who are worth as much as 900 in non-liquid assets comprised of their gear. In nearly all of those cases, income is nowhere near the necessary level to afford even occasional spellcasting at the lowest level. Your -entire- client base will be in the remaining ~1% of the population. 250 out of 25,000 people -might- occasionally have need of your services. Even amongst them only a handful will be able to afford more than your lowest level spells at all, much less with any frequency.

Saying that there is more demand than can reasonably be filled by the 2 dozen or so 1st level wizards in the city would represent such an absurd paradigm shift in the city's economy that it veritably boggles the mind.

The default wage doesn't have to be 1sp. Most people aren't untrained with no marketable skills. The 1sp/day should be for trainees who have not yet gained ranks in profession or craft. Otherwise I agree with this analysis.


In a giant metropolis, according to demographics, wizards are very rare.

Now you could say everyone but the nobles are poor, and the nobles already have spellcasters, so you get no business.

You could also say there aren't enough wizards to fill everyone's magic needs, and everyone at least makes 1000gp a month, so you're always selling all your spells everyday. You can't tell me this can't be true, cause it's all up to the DM. No RAW says otherwise, maybe average wealth per commoner thing, but w.e. Maybe this is a super rich city of the chosen ones.

You could say the mayor of a small village needs a lot of mage armors to outfit their militia because the town lacks a blacksmith and traders are rare, so your business is sky high, although your payment might be in livestock, or the mayor is from a super rich family and started a village just because he wanted to be a mayor. So it's all up to the DM.

Economic thought experiments peg a gold piece at anywhere from 80-200 USD. Let's be conservative and say 100. It is also an easy number to work with. The average person actually makes around 6-8 gold a week in D&D. (The 1 SP a day thing is for untrained serfs.) A well optimized level 1 commoner can make 10-14 gold per week. This all relates pretty well to a reasonable economy, actually. The poorest of the poor barely make enough to eat, a low end middle class worker pulls in around 33 thousand a year whereas a skilled middle class worker makes closer to 60k. If this is a town where people routinely rake in the equivalent of 1.2 million dollars a year, all you've done is devalue gold. Jacking up the total gold in the economy isn't really any different than lowering the cost of services. Either way, if you aren't sticking to the level and wealth recommended in the DMG, why stick to the spell casting costs?

You are perfectly right that this is the DMs prerogative, and if you want to make the economy more sensible by making gold more plentiful that is just as good as lowering the price of goods. Both accomplish the same thing.

[Flickerdart]

You could say the mayor of a small village needs a lot of mage armors to outfit their militia because the town lacks a blacksmith and traders are rare, so your business is sky high, although your payment might be in livestock, or the mayor is from a super rich family and started a village just because he wanted to be a mayor. So it's all up to the DM.
Do you not know what a militia is? It's an irregular force that mostly keeps order in the town - their primary weapon is their reputation as a representative of the ruling order. Nobody is going to pay for Mage Armors several times per day, because they won't need it most of the time. Hell, they probably don't have armor anyway, and even when they do it'll be padded or leather (for which a blacksmith is not needed - and if you tell me this village also has no tanner I will laugh in your face because it would be clear you also don't know how micro-economies work).

[Kelb_Panthera]

The default wage doesn't have to be 1sp. Most people aren't untrained with no marketable skills. The 1sp/day should be for trainees who have not yet gained ranks in profession or craft. Otherwise I agree with this analysis.

It kinda does. In a city environment there's simply not enough demand for -everyone- to work as a professional or artisan. The vast majority of people are going to be mucking stables, scrubbing floors, or doing some other basically thoughtless task that would be considered "unskilled labor." It's actually easier to make money in a small town where there's a lot less competition for such jobs.

[SowZ]

It kinda does. In a city environment there's simply not enough demand for -everyone- to work as a professional or artisan. The vast majority of people are going to be mucking stables, scrubbing floors, or doing some other basically thoughtless task that would be considered "unskilled labor." It's actually easier to make money in a small town where there's a lot less competition for such jobs.

See, but in real life, the difference between unskilled and basic skilled labor will not mean the unskilled laborer makes literally ten times less than the average trained laborer. It's make a lot more sense that the 1sp is basically an internship or paid training/reserved for serfs. It makes far more sense than the custodian making the equivalent of 10 dollars a day and the pie baker making 120.

[Kelb_Panthera]

See, but in real life, the difference between unskilled and basic skilled labor will not mean the unskilled laborer makes literally ten times less than the average trained laborer. It's make a lot more sense that the 1sp is basically an internship or paid training/reserved for serfs. It makes far more sense than the custodian making the equivalent of 10 dollars a day and the pie baker making 120.

Comparisons to real money don't work right when you really start to look at them. I mean, just look at the range you quoted yourself. Instead you have to compare income to the cost of things listed in the PHB and other sources. Does it sound right to you that a common laborer could afford two entire cows every week? How about 3 pigs and 5 chickens? Half a ton of wheat?

[SowZ]

Comparisons to real money don't work right when you really start to look at them. I mean, just look at the range you quoted yourself. Instead you have to compare income to the cost of things listed in the PHB and other sources. Does it sound right to you that a common laborer could afford two entire cows every week? How about 3 pigs and 5 chickens? Half a ton of wheat?

I scrub most of this up to the writers of the game eyeballing everything, declaring prices that they think make sense even though they clearly have no ranching sensibilities. A quality milk cow can easily be worth two grand, and you can spend a thousand dollars on a relatively small beef cow. I scrub this up to ignorance about the market. Man-hours are more reliable to look at. It may be reasonable that a common laborer makes 1sp per day, but in that case a mediocre baker should not make 6 gold a week.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I scrub most of this up to the writers of the game eyeballing everything, declaring prices that they think make sense even though they clearly have no ranching sensibilities. A quality milk cow can easily be worth two grand, and you can spend a thousand dollars on a relatively small beef cow. I scrub this up to ignorance about the market. Man-hours are more reliable to look at. It may be reasonable that a common laborer makes 1sp per day, but in that case a mediocre baker should not make 6 gold a week.

A baker -generates- 6 gold a week. He doesn't get to keep all of it. Just fueling his ovens is going to eat up a lot. Then he has to pay for supplies (flour, eggs, milk, etc), rent (maybe), and his apprentice(s) wages. All told, he likely still does considerably better than 1sp per week in take home but it's not even close to the full 6gp anymore.

[SowZ]

A baker -generates- 6 gold a week. He doesn't get to keep all of it. Just fueling his ovens is going to eat up a lot. Then he has to pay for supplies (flour, eggs, milk, etc), rent (maybe), and his apprentice(s) wages. All told, he likely still does considerably better than 1sp per week in take home but it's not even close to the full 6gp anymore.

Of course, now we are in the territory of homebrew. Very reasonable homebrew, and we are discussing how to rationalize the economy, but in the PHB the words used are, 'wage' and 'income.' That is pretty explicitly your take home. Before taxes, maybe, but a take home nonetheless. What you are talking about is owning your own business, which there are also silly rules for.

[Jeff the Green]

See, but in real life, the difference between unskilled and basic skilled labor will not mean the unskilled laborer makes literally ten times less than the average trained laborer. It's make a lot more sense that the 1sp is basically an internship or paid training/reserved for serfs. It makes far more sense than the custodian making the equivalent of 10 dollars a day and the pie baker making 120.

Maybe not the baker, but other craftsmen certainly. C. 1300 laborers made (http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html) a max of £2 per year. An apprentice armorer in c. 1550 (there was essentially no wage inflation between the two (http://web.mit.edu/14.731/papers/greatdivergence.pdf)) made 6 pence per day, approximately £7.8 per year. A regular armorer made something like £14, the chief armorer £16, and an armorer listed as "Old Martyn" £23. (I suspect Old Martyn may have been a master who couldn't work but had valuable expertise and/or blackmail material. Or possibly just killer stories.) It looks like masons (not even masters) made twice what laborers did, and the paper in the inflation link uses masons as a stand-in for bakers. Given that the twelve-fold difference requires max ranks at a level higher than 1, Skill Focus, above-average Wisdom, and a masterwork tool, I think Old Martyn is probably a better equivalent than any baker.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Of course, now we are in the territory of homebrew. Very reasonable homebrew, and we are discussing how to rationalize the economy, but in the PHB the words used are, 'wage' and 'income.' That is pretty explicitly your take home. Before taxes, maybe, but a take home nonetheless. What you are talking about is owning your own business, which there are also silly rules for.

Not really. You roll a check that necessarily entails the consumption of supplies and puts out a finished product. It's only natural that you'd have to spend at least some of the generated income if you want to repeat the process. Use of the word wage doesn't change that. I make a wage where I work and I don't get to take the whole thing home. If I had to bring in my own supplies I'd get to bring home even less of it. A wage is simply what you get paid for the work, how much goes into your pocket is another matter altogether.

[Jeff the Green]

Not really. You roll a check that necessarily entails the consumption of supplies and puts out a finished product. It's only natural that you'd have to spend at least some of the generated income if you want to repeat the process. Use of the word wage doesn't change that. I make a wage where I work and I don't get to take the whole thing home. If I had to bring in my own supplies I'd get to bring home even less of it. A wage is simply what you get paid for the work, how much goes into your pocket is another matter altogether.

For an even better analogy: teachers. Yes, they make a wage (usually a salary, I suppose, but the difference isn't material). In America, at least, they also often have to use some of that to buy supplies; it doesn't change what they see on their pay stub.

[SowZ]

Maybe not the baker, but other craftsmen certainly. C. 1300 laborers made (http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html) a max of £2 per year. An apprentice armorer in c. 1550 (there was essentially no wage inflation between the two (http://web.mit.edu/14.731/papers/greatdivergence.pdf)) made 6 pence per day, approximately £7.8 per year. A regular armorer made something like £14, the chief armorer £16, and an armorer listed as "Old Martyn" £23. (I suspect Old Martyn may have been a master who couldn't work but had valuable expertise and/or blackmail material. Or possibly just killer stories.) It looks like masons (not even masters) made twice what laborers did, and the paper in the inflation link uses masons as a stand-in for bakers. Given that the twelve-fold difference requires max ranks at a level higher than 1, Skill Focus, above-average Wisdom, and a masterwork tool, I think Old Martyn is probably a better equivalent than any baker.

The highest blacksmith they have recorded who makes significantly more than a chief armorer is sure to be a master. Not really relevant. But looking at a regular armorer. First, an armorer was a very good job. Second, you still aren't seeing ten and twenty times the salaries. The wealth disparity is just a little extreme, that's all. Yes, serfs and the like are going to be making a very small amount. But freemen with a steady job won't be making such a pitiful amount across the board.

Really, this is just a result of standardizing wages into two categories; unskilled and skilled. You either make 1sp a day, or between 1 and 2 gold. In reality, there would be a gradient with wages all the way up the line. The baker probably wouldn't even be making the 1 gold. This is fine, D&D isn't supposed to be an economic simulator, I just adjust things in my games.

[Yahzi]

The issue here is selling all your product...
Perfectly cognizant.

The D&D economy is not actually as bad as it looks at first blush: a pound of wheat is worth a copper, which means a peasant farmer makes about 60 gp a year (6,000 lbs of wheat from 40 acres and a mule). A gp a day for a skilled craftsmen is a bit too high, but not unreasonable for a master craftsman (or a noble - like anybody with class ranks). You do have to do something about the fact that a smith can only make a few swords a year - assume they could make stuff faster, if only they had the customers. Or you can just say that ordinary smiths make a 1 gp a day and really are 6x richer than peasants.

[atemu1234]

And of course, the adventurers make enough money to make the pope jealous.

[Flickerdart]

You do have to do something about the fact that a smith can only make a few swords a year
Swords are not the only thing a smith sells - in a small village, most of his time will be occupied with nails, horseshoes, etc.

Besides, a few swords a year? A longsword is 150sp. A run of the mill craftsman (who always meets but never exceeds the DC 15 necessary for martial melee weapons) will make 225sp worth of progress per week. That's 11,700 sp a year, or exactly 78 longswords.

[FrancisBean]

Besides, a few swords a year? A longsword is 150sp. A run of the mill craftsman (who always meets but never exceeds the DC 15 necessary for martial melee weapons) will make 225sp worth of progress per week. That's 11,700 sp a year, or exactly 78 longswords.

I am a bladesmith, and while I don't specialize in swords, I've made a few. As with anything else, the time it takes is going to depend on the experience of the smith, the quality of the finished piece, and the mechanical advantages available. I can make a quick-n-dirty, low quality sword in under 20 man-hours, so 78 in a year for a dedicated specialist is very doable. (I usually don't work so plain -- the small riding sword I'm working on right now is probably going to talley out around 23-26 man-hours when it's done.)

But if we want to really dig into the economics, we need to remember that the medieval economies which inspired the D&D settings are very different from the modern. Labor was comparatively cheap, while raw materials were very expensive. For example, when I screw up a blade, I can throw it away. It's cheaper to buy more steel than the fuel and time costs to forge and weld the mistakes back into a useful bar. In the middle ages, they'd save every scrap of steel for recycling. I also work solo, while my medieval counterpart would probably have an apprentice or two, possibly a journeyman.

There's also the myth of a single bladesmith making a sword, start to finish. That's not how it worked. A bladesmith would buy steel from smelters, charcoal from dedicated makers, then forge, grind, and heat treat. Then the naked blade is sent to a cutler, who adds grip, guard, and pommel. Yet another guildsman does the sharpening. Scabbards were made by the sheathers' guild, the leather for which came from the tanners, and so on.

D&D isn't the real middle ages, but if we accept the 150 sp purchase price of a plain longsword, it certainly didn't all go to the smith.