View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other D&D With Only Three Classes
jqavins
2014-12-09, 07:57 AM
Here's a proposed solution to a problem I've had with D&D for decades, and why I haven't found a better system. There's a lot of work left to do on the last part, the class features, but I have enough to open the concept for comments.
Part 1 – Why?
There are too many classes in D&D. I like players to have the ability to make all kinds of characters with varied capabilities, but I’ve yet to see a way to do it that I really like. The classic four basic classes – Cleric, Fighter, Magic User, and Thief – weren’t enough. The classic sub-classes and special classes – Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Illusionist, Assassin, Monk, and Bard – added some alternate features but not really greater flexibility. Second Edition’s explosion of classes added lots of alternative features, but still lacked flexibility since you still had to pick one (or pick two and suffer the downsides of multiclassing.) And there was such inflation of the capabilities that one would be a chump to play the basic classes, which meant you had to know about all these dozens of new ones. Yuck!
I tried GURPS. Going classless has its advantages (no pun intended) and the use of advantages, disadvantages, and skills certainly gives all the flexibility I was looking for. But it has its shortcomings as well. It is complicated and numbers heavy. I’ve long liked the idea of spontaneous casting using a pool of magical energy, but I didn’t like handling spells as skills. (Villains and Vigilantes does this better.) And I missed the aspect of capabilities specific to certain classes in D&D, even if that had gotten rather out of control.
Third Ed. offered a huge improvement. Better (but not perfect) and easier multiclassing, skills and feats, and specializing through prestige classes provide the ability to customize I’d always wanted. And if there’s a particular character concept you want that’s not really possible, it’s easy enough to create a new class that allows it. But I should have known that that last bit was a trap; now there are, as happened to Second Ed. way too many classes and rampant power inflation in those classes’ features.
By way of full disclosure, my own hands are not clean in this. I’ve made up a prestige class for a character concept I couldn’t otherwise do1 and a base class based on a cool ability idea2, and I’ve played a custom base class that was made up for me by the DM3. In the base class I made, I made up class features that just seemed like a cool concept, but looking back it’s obvious that I’m guilty of power inflation.
So, I want a system with classes and levels, but not a ton of different classes to keep up with. I want a wide range of abilities available to any character, but with an easy way to keep power inflation in check. And I think I have a solution worth trying out.
1) The Nimble Warrior was created to compensate for difficulties in a dex-based fighter build. It was inspired loosely by Daphne from The Gamers: Dorkness Rising, or rather, by how Daphne should have been built. (“With my high charisma, I can talk my way out of most fights.” Umm, no.) It’s still a good idea, though I may have given her too much.
2) The Brick is a fighter-type with somewhat lower melee ability, and a bunch less ranged combat ability than an actual fighter, but a ton of hit points and class features that help make him really, really hard to take down. And his core class feature is that once he hits you, you have to make a will save to ignore him and attack anybody else. Thus, he takes lots of heat off the rest of the party. He’s based on the Tank archetype from City of Heroes. He’s too powerful; this was a mistake.
3) The Woods Warden, which is a ranger-sorcerer hybrid with a smattering of druid in its spell list.
jqavins
2014-12-09, 07:59 AM
Part 2 – The Concept
For the most part, the rules will be the same as the 3.5E SRD. (I’m sure the concept could be adapted to Pathfinder.) The one major difference, and it’s a biggie, is in the classes. All the classes in the SRD are replaced by new ones, as described below.
The idea is to have a system with only three – yes, I said three – count’m, three – classes. Period. Just three, and no more. Ever. The classes are very generic: there’s the tough guy, the spell caster, and the other guy. A character’s class determines his/her hit dice, BAB, saves, skill points, proficiencies, and the number and menu of class features. For each class, there is a large list of features that may be chosen, though some have prerequisites that may include a minimum level and/or a different feature already taken. Some features are available to all classes, some just to one, some to two but not the third. Level prerequisites may be different depending on the class (e.g. some feature that is available to a Tough at 3rd level or higher, and to an Other Guy at 5th level.)
Spells, and their progressions with levels, are an automatic feature of the caster class. Magic is available as a feature for the other classes as well, but to a lesser degree and with higher level prerequisites. I’ll describe how this works in detail in a later section.
While I intend to list a lot of features available to the classes, it’s a sure thing that I will not cover everything. Players and DMs together are expected to come up with new class features to be able to build the characters they want. So, am I simply trading dozens of classes with all their own features for hundreds of individual features? Am I opening this system up to the same power inflation as Second and Third Ed. classes? Maybe, but I don’t think so. My feeling is that DMs will have an easier time keeping this under control one feature at a time than one class at a time. At least, I think it’s worth a try.
LibraryOgre
2014-12-09, 08:16 AM
How does this differ from the Generic Classes variant in Unearthed Arcana?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm
jqavins
2014-12-09, 08:19 AM
I'm having lots of trouble with table formatting; please bear with me.
Part 3 – The Classes
There will be only three classes: the Tough, the Mage, and the Other Guy. (Yes, “Other Guy” is a lame name and I need a better one.)
Until I decide otherwise, there are no cross-class penalties for skills; if I do decide to bring that game feature back it will be sharply reduced and offset by class skill bonuses. There’s just no good reason that anybody, regardless of character class, should be hindered in learning (almost) and given skill. Profession, for example, is a cross-class skill for fighters; this led me once to seek special DM permission for a fighter to take Profession: Bodyguard as a class skill. Ridiculous!
The basics for the classes are given in Table 1.
Table 1 - The Classes
Class
HD
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Skill Points
Proficiencies
Tough
d10
Good
Good
Medium
Poor
4 + Int Mod
As Fighter
Mage
d6
Poor
Poor
Medium
Good
4 + Int Mod
As Sorcerer
Other Guy
d8
Medium
Medium
Medium
Medium
8 + Int Mod
As Rouge
The Tough
The tough is comparable to a fighter. A tough who chooses some magical or special abilities at some levels can become like a paladin or ranger, though it may not be possible to duplicate those classes exactly. The tough gains a new class feature every odd level. Feats available only to fighters under the 3.5E SRD are available class features to the Tough.
Table 2 - The Tough
Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Feature
1
+1
+2
2x Class Feature
2
+2
+3
Class Feature
3
+3
+3
+1
+1
4
+4
+4
+1
+1
Class Feature
5
+5
+4
+2
+1
6
+6/+1
+5
+2
+2
Class Feature
7
+7/+2
+5
+3
+2
8
+8/+3
+6
+3
+2
Class Feature
9
+9/+4
+6
+4
+3
10
+10/+5
+7
+4
+3
Class Feature
11
+11/+6/+1
+7
+5
+3
12
+12/+7/+2
+8
+5
+4
Class Feature
13
+13/+8/+3
+8
+6
+4
14
+14/+9/+4
+9
+6
+4
Class Feature
15
+15/+10/+5
+9
+7
+5
16
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+7
+5
Class Feature
17
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+8
+5
18
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+8
+6
Class Feature
19
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+9
+6
20
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+9
+6
Class Feature
The Mage
All spell casters use the Mage class, whether their magic is arcane, divine, or other. At first level, each mage chooses a path and an associated spell list. The ability score that rules her casting as also associated with the path. Choose either arcane (sorcerer/wizard/MU like) divine (cleric-like) or nature (druid-like.) Custom paths and spell lists may be introduced with GM approval. I may do a bardic path, or I may encourage bards to be built by using the Other Guy class and limited spell casting as a chosen class features.
Table 3 - The Mage
Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Feature
1
+2
2x Class Feature
2
+1
+3
3
+1
+1
+1
+3
4
+2
+1
+1
+4
5
+2
+1
+2
+4
Class Feature
6
+3
+2
+2
+5
7
+3
+2
+3
+5
8
+4
+2
+3
+6
9
+4
+3
+4
+6
10
+5
+3
+4
+7
Class Feature
11
+5
+3
+5
+7
12
+6/+1
+4
+5
+8
13
+6/+1
+4
+6
+8
14
+7/+2
+4
+6
+9
15
+7/+2
+5
+7
+9
Class Feature
16
+8/+3
+5
+7
+10
17
+8/+3
+5
+8
+10
18
+9/+4
+6
+8
+11
19
+9/+4
+6
+9
+11
20
+10/+5
+6
+9
+12
Class Feature
The casting system is a hybrid of prepared spells (wizard/cleric-like) and spontaneous (sorcerer-like.) Like a sorcerer, he casts spontaneously any spells from a small list; these are his prepared spells. The prepared spells come from a larger (open ended) list of spells mastered. He can change the prepared subset of mastered spells, but can make only one such change per day while studying spells after rest.
For example, if Minerva is a seventh level mage, she has prepared 7 zero level spells, 4 first level, 2 second level, and 2 third level. She has mastered many more than this, but can only cast from among those prepared. Her third level spells prepared are Fireball and Hold Person. She is about to set out on a mission to aid a lost dwarf tribe in their fight against a dragon that is invading their cave system. She realizes that both of her prepared third level spells are less than optimal (to say the least) as Hold Person will not work against the dragon and Fireballs in caves are unwise. But she can only change one of them per day, so she changes out Fireball in favor of Lightning Bolt; Hold Person and her 13 prepared spells of lower level all remain unchanged. The next day, while recovering from her wounds in the dwarves’ home cavern, she changes out Hold Person in favor or Tongues in order to express her gratitude to the dwarves (who do not speak modern Dwarvish) for their hospitality and healing spells.
One possibility under consideration is to allow changing more than one prepared spell at higher levels, but I am leaning against it. I will create a mage feat that will allow for more, up to a point.
Table 4 - Mage Spells
Level
Spells Per Day
Spells Prepared
0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#zeroLevelSorcererWizardSp ells)
1st (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
2nd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#secondLevelSorcererWizard Spells)
3rd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#thirdLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
4th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#fourthLevelSorcererWizard Spells)
5th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#fifthLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
6th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#sixthLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
7th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#seventhLevelSorcererWizar dSpells)
8th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#eighthLevelSorcererWizard Spells)
9th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#ninthLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#zeroLevelSorcererWizardSp ells)
1st (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
2nd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#secondLevelSorcererWizard Spells)
3rd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#thirdLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
4th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#fourthLevelSorcererWizard Spells)
5th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#fifthLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
6th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#sixthLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
7th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#seventhLevelSorcererWizar dSpells)
8th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#eighthLevelSorcererWizard Spells)
9th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#ninthLevelSorcererWizardS pells)
1
5
3
4
2
2
6
4
5
2
3
6
5
5
3
4
6
6
3
5
3
1
5
6
6
4
6
3
2
6
6
6
5
3
6
4
2
1
7
6
6
6
4
7
4
2
2
8
6
6
6
5
3
7
4
3
2
1
9
6
6
6
6
4
8
4
3
2
2
10
6
6
6
6
5
3
8
4
4
3
2
1
11
6
6
6
6
6
4
8
4
4
3
2
2
12
6
6
6
6
6
5
3
8
4
4
3
3
2
1
13
6
6
6
6
6
6
4
8
4
4
3
3
2
2
14
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
1
15
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
16
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
1
17
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
2
18
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
2
1
19
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
2
2
20
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
8
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
2
2
Mages use spell books. Mages on clerical paths may refer to these as prayer books, but they are functionally spell books all the same. Mages need to use their spell (prayer) books to review their prepared spells daily to keep the information fresh in their minds. It is during this time that a mage can choose to replace one of his prepared spells with a different one that he has mastered. If the mage does not review his prepared spells, he runs the risk of forgetting them so that they are no longer prepared. (They are still mastered.)
For each spell not reviewed (which is usually all or none of them) a special save is rolled. The roll is 1d20 + (Mage class level) + (applicable ability mod.) The DC is 12 + (twice the spell level.) If the save fails then the spell is no longer prepared; if the save succeeds, the spell survives to save another day. The base DC of 12 is calculated to give approximately a 1/3 chance of losing a prepared spell of the highest level available for the mage’s class level. Each top level spell then as a three day average “life expectancy” if not reviewed. The base DC and formula are both open for review.
When a spell has been forgotten, the mage is considered to have an empty prepared slot. Once she has her spell (prayer) book again, she can “replace” the empty with a new choice of prepared spell at the usual rate of one per day, or more with the benefit of feats.
The Other Guy
These have a wide range of available class features, and get one at every level.
Table 5 - The Other Guy
Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Feature
1
2x Class Feature
2
+1
Class Feature
3
+2
+1
+1
+1
Class Feature
4
+3
+1
+1
+1
Class Feature
5
+3
+2
+2
+2
Class Feature
6
+4
+2
+2
+2
Class Feature
7
+5
+3
+3
+3
Class Feature
8
+6/+1
+3
+3
+3
Class Feature
9
+6/+1
+4
+4
+4
Class Feature
10
+7/+2
+4
+4
+4
Class Feature
11
+8/+3
+5
+5
+5
Class Feature
12
+9/+4
+5
+5
+5
Class Feature
13
+9/+4
+6
+6
+6
Class Feature
14
+10/+5
+6
+6
+6
Class Feature
15
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+7
Class Feature
16
+12/+7/+2
+7
+7
+7
Class Feature
17
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+8
Class Feature
18
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+8
Class Feature
19
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+9
Class Feature
20
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+9
Class Feature
SpawnOfMorbo
2014-12-09, 08:23 AM
How does this differ from the Generic Classes variant in Unearthed Arcana?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm
This is what I was thinking myself. Just add more class related feats and you got yourself what you are aiming for.
jqavins
2014-12-09, 08:27 AM
Part 4 - Features
I've got the first few features entered in a database, but I'm out of time to play until lunch, so I'll get some posted then.
jqavins
2014-12-09, 11:51 AM
This is what I was thinking myself. Just add more class related feats and you got yourself what you are aiming for.
Mainly, the difference is my ignorance of the UA variant; thank you both. There are some other differences, but they seem to be minor and/or "repairable" by adding more class related feats, as you say. I may as well finish posting what I've got so far, but I may well scrap the project in favor of this varient with modifications.
SpawnOfMorbo
2014-12-09, 12:23 PM
Mainly, the difference is my ignorance of the UA variant; thank you both. There are some other differences, but they seem to be minor and/or "repairable" by adding more class related feats, as you say. I may as well finish posting what I've got so far, but I may well scrap the project in favor of this varient with modifications.
You could always take what you got and convert it to 5e, generic classes could be fun for 5e. Seriously, making 5e a generic system that you build your own class could be fantastic ...
And the set up is similar to 3.x
Just food for thought :)
jqavins
2014-12-09, 12:41 PM
Anyway, here's what I've got so far for class features. I've barely scratched the surface, and it may be the project will die here.
Name
Class/Level
One Chance
Prerequisites
Source Book
Source class
Clerical Turning
Mage/1
Yes
Divine Path
PHB
Cleric
Turn Undead
All/4
PHB
Paladin
Domain Spells
Mage/1
Yes
Divine Path
PHB
Cleric
Summon Familiar
Mage/1
Yes
PHB
Sorc/Wiz
Bonus Feat
All/1
Fighter Feats
Tough/1
Yes
PHB
Fighter
Scribe Scroll
Mage/1; Other Guy/6
Spells
PHB
Wizard
First Level Spells
Tough/4; Other Guy/4
Choose a path
PHB
Pal/Rang
Second Level Spells
Tough/8; Other Guy/8
First Level Spells
PHB
Pal/Rang
Third Level Spells
Tough/11; Other Guy/11
Second Level Spells
PHB
Pal/Rang
Fourth Level Spells
Tough/14; Other Guy/14
Third Level Spells
PHB
Pal/Rang
Sneak Attack 1
Other Guy/1
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 2
Other Guy/3
Sneak Attack 1
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 3
Other Guy/5
Sneak Attack 2
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 4
Other Guy/7
Sneak Attack 3
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 5
Other Guy/9
Sneak Attack 4
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 6
Other Guy/11
Sneak Attack 5
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 7
Other Guy/13
Sneak Attack 6
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 8
Other Guy/15
Sneak Attack 7
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 9
Other Guy/17
Sneak Attack 8
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 10
Other Guy/19
Sneak Attack 9
PHB
Rouge
Trapfinding
Other Guy/1
PHB
Rouge
Evasion
All/1
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +1
Other Guy/3
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +2
Other Guy/6
Trap Sense +1
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +3
Other Guy/9
Trap Sense +2
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +4
Other Guy/12
Trap Sense +3
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +5
Other Guy/15
Trap Sense +4
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +6
Other Guy/18
Trap Sense +5
PHB
Rouge
Specialization
Mage/1
Yes
Arcane path
PHB
Wizard
By the time I'm done (if I finish) there will be features enough to come pretty close to duplicating any PHB class and some of the others. But characters will also be able to mix and match features to play other concepts. Perhaps the generic classes variant from the UA accomplishes the same thing. Certainly is looks very similar, and I need to study it further.
jqavins
2014-12-09, 12:45 PM
You could always take what you got and convert it to 5e, generic classes could be fun for 5e. Seriously, making 5e a generic system that you build your own class could be fantastic ...
And the set up is similar to 3.x
Just food for thought :)
My thoughts are always hungry.
I haven't looked in any real detail at 5e yet, and I'm on the fence about spending any money on 5e books. My friends are all sticking with 1e (AD&D) or 3.5 or Pathfinder, as far as I know.
SpawnOfMorbo
2014-12-09, 12:46 PM
Anyway, here's what I've got so far for class features. I've barely scratched the surface, and it may be the project will die here.
Name
Class/Level
One Chance
Prerequisites
Source Book
Source class
Clerical Turning
Mage/1
Yes
Divine Path
PHB
Cleric
Turn Undead
All/4
PHB
Paladin
Domain Spells
Mage/1
Yes
Divine Path
PHB
Cleric
Summon Familiar
Mage/1
Yes
PHB
Sorc/Wiz
Bonus Feat
All/1
Fighter Feats
Tough/1
Yes
PHB
Fighter
Scribe Scroll
Mage/1; Other Guy/6
Spells
PHB
Wizard
First Level Spells
Tough/4; Other Guy/4
Choose a path
PHB
Pal/Rang
Second Level Spells
Tough/8; Other Guy/8
First Level Spells
PHB
Pal/Rang
Third Level Spells
Tough/11; Other Guy/11
Second Level Spells
PHB
Pal/Rang
Fourth Level Spells
Tough/14; Other Guy/14
Third Level Spells
PHB
Pal/Rang
Sneak Attack 1
Other Guy/1
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 2
Other Guy/3
Sneak Attack 1
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 3
Other Guy/5
Sneak Attack 2
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 4
Other Guy/7
Sneak Attack 3
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 5
Other Guy/9
Sneak Attack 4
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 6
Other Guy/11
Sneak Attack 5
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 7
Other Guy/13
Sneak Attack 6
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 8
Other Guy/15
Sneak Attack 7
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 9
Other Guy/17
Sneak Attack 8
PHB
Rouge
Sneak Attack 10
Other Guy/19
Sneak Attack 9
PHB
Rouge
Trapfinding
Other Guy/1
PHB
Rouge
Evasion
All/1
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +1
Other Guy/3
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +2
Other Guy/6
Trap Sense +1
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +3
Other Guy/9
Trap Sense +2
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +4
Other Guy/12
Trap Sense +3
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +5
Other Guy/15
Trap Sense +4
PHB
Rouge
Trap Sense +6
Other Guy/18
Trap Sense +5
PHB
Rouge
Specialization
Mage/1
Yes
Arcane path
PHB
Wizard
By the time I'm done (if I finish) there will be features enough to come pretty close to duplicating any PHB class and some of the others. But characters will also be able to mix and match features to play other concepts. Perhaps the generic classes variant from the UA accomplishes the same thing. Certainly is looks very similar, and I need to study it further.
The UA attempts to do what you are doing but doesn't do it very well. It isn't very balanced or in depth.
I would totally use a ToB/MoI generic class if I ever played 3.5 again.
Edit
Balanced meaning that you don't get to get the good stuff of all classes but you get the good stuff of some.
For example, in UA I believe you can never get wildshape.
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