Removing AC

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So with my work on skill contest I've been thinking...


Why not remove AC (have it give temp HP per short or long rest) and have the following attack rolls.

Weapon: Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics

Light weapon: Acrobatics versus Athletics or Acrobatics

Crossbow: Perception or Investigation versus Athletics or Acrobatics

Longbow: Dex (Athletics)

Shortbows: Acrobatics

Spell Casting: Int, wis, cha class skill for each... Like Druid would have Nature, Cleric Religion, Wizard Arcana, Warlock Deception... And so forth versus Athletics or Acrobatics. Keep saves the same as they are now.

To save time make all defenses passive if you want.

Is anything like this in the DMG?

[drawingfreak]

Not that I've seen thus far.

However, spellcasting already includes a proficiency bonus to both saves and attacks, so no skill tie in is needed.

[Grac]

Rather than having armour grant temp HP, why not grant Damage Reduction equal to its AC bonus?

[GiantOctopodes]

One thing to be aware of with this alternate system is that AC values will be lower during low levels than they are currently (an AC of 17 will be very rare, and using standard point buy or the standard array the highest AC you'll see is 14 or 15), making combat significantly more deadly at low levels. At high levels it more or less evens out with how things are currently.

Have you thought about how to differentiate light, medium, or heavy armour? Do you even want to do so? How about shields? If you wanted to model or emulate from existing setups, but make it easy, you could do the following:

Light Armour: Acrobatics only
Medium Armour: Acrobatics or Athletics, -5ft movement rate
Heavy Armour: +1 Passive Athletics value, Althletics Only, Disadvantage on Stealth

Shield: +1 passive Athletics or Acrobatics value

At low levels, then, heavy armour wearing characters would be able to get up to values of 19 with a shield (right in line with current possibilities), with values of 17 being more reasonably common (also right in line), and the high end cap is still not absurdly extreme, though at a result of 23, it does reach levels that require at least a bit of optimization currently to achieve and makes them more generally available.

Edit: And in all instances of saying AC, I mean passive skill check results, of course

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Rather than having armour grant temp HP, why not grant Damage Reduction equal to its AC bonus?

Way to powerful mostly.

Temp HP equal armor bonus - 10. 1 minute resets this as you are fixing your armor but not really resting.

[Giant2005]

How would you factor in Shields? If they just give temp HP on a short or long rest like the rest of the AC, I forsee a lot of people resting with their shields out to get an extra couple of HP and them throwing them away to go back to two-handed fighting.
What about things like the Shield spell? Would it even do anything anymore?

Your method doesn't have the anti-munchkin defenses that the default game has either which would be an issue. For instance a 1 Rogue/1 Barbarian/18 whatever class you really wanted to play would have your custom-psuedo-AC score of 27 +strmod while raging. Pretty much everyone and their mother would dip into Rogue or Bard for Expertise and look for something that gives them Advantage (Like Rage) because it is a cheap and easy way of making your character near invincible. The Guidance Cantrip suddenly gets even more OP too and so do Druids due to their greatest weakness while Wildshaped (Low AC) no longer being a mitigating factor at all. It essentially takes circumstance out of the equation.

[Fwiffo86]

So with my work on skill contest I've been thinking...


Why not remove AC (have it give temp HP per short or long rest) and have the following attack rolls.

Weapon: Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics

Light weapon: Acrobatics versus Athletics or Acrobatics

Crossbow: Perception or Investigation versus Athletics or Acrobatics

Longbow: Dex (Athletics)

Shortbows: Acrobatics

Spell Casting: Int, wis, cha class skill for each... Like Druid would have Nature, Cleric Religion, Wizard Arcana, Warlock Deception... And so forth versus Athletics or Acrobatics. Keep saves the same as they are now.

To save time make all defenses passive if you want.

Is anything like this in the DMG?

Smells too much like 4th for me. I have no suggestions. It is not a system I would consider using.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Smells too much like 4th for me. I have no suggestions. It is not a system I would consider using.

Good for you? Please don't bait edition waring though. :smallsmile:

I don't care which edition this smells like, especially since 3e and 4e have a lot of common connections (read unearthed arcana and some other rule books... A lot of 4e is in 3e lol).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

How would you factor in Shields? If they just give temp HP on a short or long rest like the rest of the AC, I forsee a lot of people resting with their shields out to get an extra couple of HP and them throwing them away to go back to two-handed fighting.
What about things like the Shield spell? Would it even do anything anymore?

Your method doesn't have the anti-munchkin defenses that the default game has either which would be an issue. For instance a 1 Rogue/1 Barbarian/18 whatever class you really wanted to play would have your custom-psuedo-AC score of 27 +strmod while raging. Pretty much everyone and their mother would dip into Rogue or Bard for Expertise and look for something that gives them Advantage (Like Rage) because it is a cheap and easy way of making your character near invincible. The Guidance Cantrip suddenly gets even more OP too and so do Druids due to their greatest weakness while Wildshaped (Low AC) no longer being a mitigating factor at all. It essentially takes circumstance out of the equation.


Shields I'm still fiddling with, I'm not currently dealing with munchkins since they primarily get overblown on the net where a DM can't say "Hahaha...no".

Expertise is simple, it doesn't apply to attack and defenses with weapon s or spells.

Rage works on attack rolls (as normal) but not on defense rolls.

I haven't worked every detail out but more of the general thought. I really figured this may be in the DMG and I could work with that.

[Giant2005]

I really figured this may be in the DMG and I could work with that.

It isn't in there.

[Fwiffo86]

Good for you? Please don't bait edition waring though. :smallsmile:

I don't care which edition this smells like, especially since 3e and 4e have a lot of common connections (read unearthed arcana and some other rule books... A lot of 4e is in 3e lol).

I was actually referencing the needless complication of essentially two rolls. Roll vs AC for weapons (regardless of weapon type), and Resist vs (essentially AC) save DC for spells.

Is there a specific reason for complicating this system other than possible dislike of it?

[Knaight]

Why not remove AC (have it give temp HP per short or long rest) and have the following attack rolls.

Weapon: Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics

Light weapon: Acrobatics versus Athletics or Acrobatics

Crossbow: Perception or Investigation versus Athletics or Acrobatics

Longbow: Dex (Athletics)

Shortbows: Acrobatics

Spell Casting: Int, wis, cha class skill for each... Like Druid would have Nature, Cleric Religion, Wizard Arcana, Warlock Deception... And so forth versus Athletics or Acrobatics. Keep saves the same as they are now.

To save time make all defenses passive if you want.

The big reason not to do this is that it just doesn't make any sense from a simulation perspective. Athletic ability and weapon skill are two different things, and just sharing an attribute more than covers their relationship. Being perceptive is not going to make you accurate with a crossbow. Being good at tumbling, balance, etc. has nothing to do with archery.

If you really want to roll skills in in some way, one option would be to add a class of weapon skills which can be picked as skills, and either increase skills across the board or allow for proficiency in a certain number of weapon skills by class. These weapon skills (and possibly a shield skill) could then be implemented as some sort of active defense system, while leaving in armor as something else.

Still, by the time you're changing that much there's a case to be made for just switching systems entirely. GURPS fits what you're doing, for example.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I was actually referencing the needless complication of essentially two rolls. Roll vs AC for weapons (regardless of weapon type), and Resist vs (essentially AC) save DC for spells.

Is there a specific reason for complicating this system other than possible dislike of it?

No more complicated then the saving throw system.

This is actually pretty simple as the mechanics are already in the game.


The big reason not to do this is that it just doesn't make any sense from a simulation perspective. Athletic ability and weapon skill are two different things, and just sharing an attribute more than covers their relationship. Being perceptive is not going to make you accurate with a crossbow. Being good at tumbling, balance, etc. has nothing to do with archery.
.

I'm sorry but you completely lost me here.

Athleticism has everything to do with fighting and weapon attacks. You can learn how to hold and swing a sword but if you are a lazy fat blob (not Kingpin type...) you won't be as good as an athletic person. In a game where athletics exist to represent how good you are with strength this makes compete sense to have athletics be incorporated with weapon attacks with heavy or non finesse weapons.

Acrobatics is how finesse you are, using light quick weapons makes you rely on timing and your ability to quickly move.

Perception is needed to see and target a weapon such as a cross bow or gun. I happen to know a guy who has bad hand coordination (you should see the crappy model car he built, it is a legend) but because he can aim and use his eyes to judge distance insanely well he can shoot way better than the his ex-gymnist redneck gf.

With bows, balance and strength is key.

We already have these skills in the game so I'm not interjecting reality into the game that isn't already there.

Seriously though, that was a good laugh, was you being facetious?

[Fwiffo86]

What about people who don't have those skills?

It seems you are making certain skills required instead of being character options with equal merit to other skills.

[Knaight]

I'm sorry but you completely lost me here.

Athleticism has everything to do with fighting and weapon attacks. You can learn how to hold and swing a sword but if you are a lazy fat blob (not Kingpin type...) you won't be as good as an athletic person. In a game where athletics exist to represent how good you are with strength this makes compete sense to have athletics be incorporated with weapon attacks with heavy or non finesse weapons.

Acrobatics is how finesse you are, using light quick weapons makes you rely on timing and your ability to quickly move.

The ability score linking covers this much. Athletics specifically represents things like swimming, climbing, running, etc. Acrobatics specifically represents things like tumbling, balancing on narrow surfaces, etc. These are not even remotely the same thing as actual weapon skills. Someone who isn't particularly in shape but knows how to use their weapons will generally trounce someone who is in great shape but doesn't really know what they're doing.

Something like Burning Wheel's fields of related knowledge bonus from athletics makes sense for weapon skill. Directly using it gets really iffy.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

What about people who don't have those skills?

It seems you are making certain skills required instead of being character options with equal merit to other skills.

Then you have the V talk. There is a difference between having proficiency with a weapon and being good with weapon. But its the same think as saying I want to be a wizard but don't want to have a high Int. You don't have to make any choice but some choices are better than others (like taking 16 Int for a wizard instead of 16 cha and 10 Int).

Also everyone has the chance to take a very active, defensive, and useful skill if they see fit.

I'm not saying this is the end all be all of methods but using the skill system that is in play could work. In removing AC from the game.

I personally like final fantasy tactics where armor gives you temp hp (it is gone if you remove the armor).

[Knaight]

I'm not saying this is the end all be all of methods but using the skill system that is in play could work. In removing AC from the game.

It could, and it does in plenty of other systems. They just generally implement some skills from it - maybe there's a general fighting skill, maybe you have something like unarmed, melee, ranged, thrown, maybe you go full GURPS and have six different skills just for different types of swords that can all be used in place of eac other at various penalties that you have to consult a table for*. Just re-purposing athletics and acrobatics is odd. Why should being good with a spear make someone an expert swimmer?

*I strongly recommend against going full GURPS.

[GiantOctopodes]

*I strongly recommend against going full GURPS.

"Everybody knows you never go Full GURPS".

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It could, and it does in plenty of other systems. They just generally implement some skills from it - maybe there's a general fighting skill, maybe you have something like unarmed, melee, ranged, thrown, maybe you go full GURPS and have six different skills just for different types of swords that can all be used in place of eac other at various penalties that you have to consult a table for*. Just re-purposing athletics and acrobatics is odd. Why should being good with a spear make someone an expert swimmer?

*I strongly recommend against going full GURPS.


You do know that in 5e if you want to ouah with a shield or trip with a weapon you use Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics right?

They already use skills for attacks, I'm not proposing anything that isn't already in the game in some facet except for changing armor to temp HP.

[Fwiffo86]

You do know that in 5e if you want to ouah with a shield or trip with a weapon you use Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics right?

They already use skills for attacks, I'm not proposing anything that isn't already in the game in some facet except for changing armor to temp HP.

Wouldn't that negate the benefits of some spells? Like Heroism for instance? Since you only use the most beneficial temp hp, using armor to grant temp hp sort of ruins (at least partially) several spells, abilities, feats and class abilities doesn't it?

[Safety Sword]

I only have one question.

Do you want to play D&D 5E SpawnOfMorbo?

If so, AC is a core mechanic. If not, do whatever you like, but you're not playing the same magic elf game that I am.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I only have one question.

Do you want to play D&D 5E SpawnOfMorbo?

If so, AC is a core mechanic. If not, do whatever you like, but you're not playing the same magic elf game that I am.

Last I checked so are skill contests and they are already used for attacking and defending in combat.

We have three systems for weapon combat. AC, Skill Contests, and Saving Throws (Battle Master)

Also, don't tell me what I can or can't modify or be curious about. :smallannoyed:

Edit: Wrong face

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Wouldn't that negate the benefits of some spells? Like Heroism for instance? Since you only use the most beneficial temp hp, using armor to grant temp hp sort of ruins (at least partially) several spells, abilities, feats and class abilities doesn't it?

No clue, depends on how you would word the HP from the armor.

Hell you could just say that it increases your HP maximum by X when you put it on instead of calling it Temp HP.

There are spells and effects that mess with your maximum HP so this wouldn't be too out of line.

[Safety Sword]

Last I checked so are skill contests and they are already used for attacking and defending in combat.

We have three systems for weapon combat. AC, Skill Contests, and Saving Throws (Battle Master)

Also, don't tell me what I can or can't modify or be curious about. :smallannoyed:

Edit: Wrong face

I didn't tell you any such thing. I said, modify whatever you like, but you're changing the core mechanics of the D&D 5E system, so it's not the same game anymore.

[JoeJ]

No clue, depends on how you would word the HP from the armor.

Hell you could just say that it increases your HP maximum by X when you put it on instead of calling it Temp HP.

There are spells and effects that mess with your maximum HP so this wouldn't be too out of line.

Why not have armor simply reduce damage by a certain amount per hit? There's even a precedent: heavy armor reduces damage by 3 points if you have the Heavy Armor Master feat.

[MeeposFire]

CHange the attack roll into a save DC and then have attacks go against various saves (dexterity being the most common. have armor give a bonus to saves that only apply to attacks that armor could stop.

[Abithrios]

I only have one question.

Do you want to play D&D 5E SpawnOfMorbo?

If so, AC is a core mechanic. If not, do whatever you like, but you're not playing the same magic elf game that I am.


I didn't tell you any such thing. I said, modify whatever you like, but you're changing the core mechanics of the D&D 5E system, so it's not the same game anymore.

Of course we are not talking about 5e by RAW. This is pretty obviously a thread about house rules. If you feel the need to call it Morbos and Dragons rather than modified 5e,then that is irrelevant to whether the proposed house rules are good or could be improved--the actual purpose of the thread.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Of course we are not talking about 5e by RAW. This is pretty obviously a thread about house rules. If you feel the need to call it Morbos and Dragons rather than modified 5e,then that is irrelevant to whether the proposed house rules are good or could be improved--the actual purpose of the thread.

Dungeons & Morbos

Sounds like a weird kinky futurama game...

[Gwendol]

Why is this topic in this forum? Looks like homebrew.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Why is this topic in this forum? Looks like homebrew.

I'm not trying to create anything with this thread?

Asking for potential issues with a system such as what was described above.

And to see if something g like that was in the DMG.

[Gwendol]

Because attack rolls vs AC is a core mechanic. When you remove that you have a new game.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Because attack rolls vs AC is a core mechanic. When you remove that you have a new game.

Funny, no.

Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics is used when you use a weapon to shove.

So anytime I trip with a halberd I'm not playing 5e anymore?

[Gwendol]

If you trip with a halberd you are not attacking with it (unless the tripping is a rider effect of a weapon attack).

PHB, page 8:
The target number for an ability check or a saving
throw is called a Difficulty Class (DC). The target
number for an attack roll is called an Armor Class (AC).
This simple rule governs the resolution of most tasks
in D&D play. Chapter 7 provides more detailed rules for
using the d20 in the game.

Shoving is a special melee attack. Under the header it doesn't say if the weapon wielded is used for the attack, and since the strength contest doesn't take enchanted weapon bonuses into consideration, it's not much of a stretch to conclude that shoving is done mainly without a weapon, or without using the weapon as intended (again, this is the general rule, exceptions likely exist).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If you trip with a halberd you are not attacking with it (unless the tripping is a rider effect of a weapon attack).

Because shoving a creature isn't an attack?

Really? So is doing damage the only thing that constitutes an attack? Cause that goes into weird situations that we shouldn't go into and hasn't been the case for years.

So by your logic if someone attempts to trip my ally and I have protection style... I can't impose disadvantage to the attacker because said attacker isn't really attacking.

That makes no sense.

Edit:
And your edit doesn't really change anything. There is already examples of attacks that don't target AC.

[Gwendol]

Of course it's an attack, it's just not a weapon attack (vs AC).

I meant what I said and it makes perfect sense within the context of the rules.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Of course it's an attack, it's just not a weapon attack (vs AC).

I meant what I said and it makes perfect sense within the context of the rules.

So using a weapon to make an attack that has an effect s in the game, but if you expand on that idea you aren't playing 5e?

That doesn't make sense. You are using a core mechanic of the game.

The opposite works just fine though right? The fighter attacks versus AC and uses a die to impose a save or be tripped.

That uses saving throws, by your logic since it doesn't use a Skill Contest, it must not be 5e!

Yeah it doesn't work that way. Just because you use a core mechanic in a different way doesn't mean you are playing a different game.

[Gwendol]

I'm sorry, but you just stopped making sense. This topic is clearly very dear to you, while being close to incomprehensible for me. Please carry on.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm sorry, but you just stopped making sense. This topic is clearly very dear to you, while being close to incomprehensible for me. Please carry on.

:smallsigh:

It isn't B that it is dear to me.

You are saying that if you use a core mechanic from a system to do something simular to what it already does you are not playing said system anymore.

I'm saying that is not the case.

Saying you don't like something is fine, but saying you aren't playing the same game when you using a core mechanic. . is just ludicrous.

[Raimun]

Yes. And let's also stop using D20's. There's just like, too many sides there, man.

If we used a D4 or a coin toss for everything, it would really speed things up.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yes. And let's also stop using D20's. There's just like, too many sides there, man.

If we used a D4 or a coin toss for everything, it would really speed things up.

:smallsigh:

Funny enough many people do suggest using 3d6 to replace the d20 in 3.5, 4e, and 5e because it gives a better average than the d20....

Does that mean if you did that you are playing a different game? Hell no.

Rolling a d4 or coin toss for everything is not already a CORE MECHANIC but using a skill contest for a weapon attack already is.

[Demonic Spoon]

You never actually provided a reason as to why this change would be desirable, and there are a ton why it would be undesirable.

The change would break bards, rogues, and any casters with Enhance Ability.

Skill choice is vastly reduced because you're now blowing ~2 of your 4 starting skills on proficiencies so you can hit things.

Some of the mechanics are really weird. I use investigation to hit something with a crossbow? what?

There is absolutely zero differentiation between being good at athletics e.g. climbing sheer walls, bullrushing some guy to knock him down, and being good at hitting things with swords.


Athleticism has everything to do with fighting and weapon attacks. You can learn how to hold and swing a sword but if you are a lazy fat blob (not Kingpin type...) you won't be as good as an athletic person. In a game where athletics exist to represent how good you are with strength this makes compete sense to have athletics be incorporated with weapon attacks with heavy or non finesse weapons.


Your definition of the word "athletic" is just strength. The skill called "athletics" in D&D means more than just being physically fit. That's why it's absurd.