Assassin Build (3.5)

[WesleyVos]

Alright, Playgrounders, I'm having trouble coming up with a decently-optimized assassin build. So I'm asking for your help.

Here are the relevant rules:
48-point buy (yes, I know it's wonderfully high)
Level 9
15k gp to spend
D&D 3.5e, Forgotten Realms

Books:
Nothing except homebrew and third party are prohibited. I'd prefer to avoid using magazines or psionics.

Preferences:
Human
I'd like to make significant use of Swordsage levels and maneuvers, particularly Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand
The character needs to be focused on assassinations primarily and, secondarily, filling the role of a skill monkey
And no, I don't want any levels in the Assassin prestige class. Class stinks - swordsage does it better.

So, suggestions?

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly, I'd advise you to check out the entries to the Iron Chef: Assassin competition (it's linked in the OP of the current IC competition). It's focused around using the Assassin PrC (which I acknowledge you don't want), but the tactics used, and the methods used to make them viable, were focused on making assassination possible.

Secondly, what kind of assassin are you going for? Are you a master of disguise who gets close to their targets and takes them out, or are you purely a ninja-assassin, sneaking up unnoticed and stabbing/shooting them, before disappearing? Do you prefer melee, ranged, poison use, sneak attack stuff, what?

Or are you just wanting to build an Assassin-themed Swordsage?

[WesleyVos]

I'll check out the Iron Chef thread.

Ideally, as much as I hate mixing in the idea of a ninja to D&D, that's the sort of assassin I'm looking for. Someone who is in the shadows, watching, waiting, then striking and quickly disappearing again. Melee-focused - I'm working on a joint background with a summoner/enchanter, so I'll have a lot of flanking support/distractions. Poisons would be good if they were effective past low levels - I've never known them to be, since the DCs are so low. Sneak attacking is helpful.

The builds I've tried so far have all involved a mix of Rogue and Swordsage levels. I think part of the problem I'm facing is that I really like the idea of a shadowy assassin, and I really like the Shadow Hand school of maneuvers, but I also want to run a TWF crit-fisher. At least, that's how I've been making most builds so far.

But I'm willing to change most or all of my ideas if a better one comes up. The only things I don't like, as I said, are psionics and the assassin prestige class. I'd prefer not to use the ninja base class, either - I've never found it to mesh well with Faerun.

[Rebel7284]

Factotum 8/Swordsage 1

Extra actions are amazing. Access to a few utility spells. Int to dex based skills like hide and move silently and +8 to a skill once a day.

Sneak up to your opponent and burn inspiration for a crapton of D6 of sneak attack.

[WesleyVos]

Factotum 8/Swordsage 1

Extra actions are amazing. Access to a few utility spells. Int to dex based skills like hide and move silently and +8 to a skill once a day.

Sneak up to your opponent and burn inspiration for a crapton of D6 of sneak attack.

Factotum could work. Now I have to go pull my copy of Dungeonscape, since the popular site we all loved so well is gone for good now.

EDIT: Having reviewed the class, I think it's more focused on the secondary rather than the primary. Primarily, this character needs to be a killer, and while factotums can kill, that's not their primary role - they're more of a jack of all trades. Maybe fewer levels of factotum and more of swordsage?

[Manly Man]

Swordsage 2/Crusader 2/Cleric 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Swordsage 8 would give you a ninja-like feel (don't worry too much about the spellcasting, though it can be very helpful), and nice function, since you can get a lot of extra swift actions (and therefore a lot more boosts, considering how many of them are swift actions, which disciplines like Tiger Claw have a lot of) from the RKV's ability to switch turn attempts for swift actions. Buff yourself up for a round with a bunch of boosts, then make a strong Shadow Hand strike (You'll have an initiator level of 19 by the end, so 9th-level maneuvers are totally good here), and watch the bad guys fall as you then teleport through the shadows with a quick Shadow Blink.

[AvatarVecna]

A few levels of Rogue is always nice; a few dice of Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, maybe even Evasion.

Factotum's always nice: between the skills boosts, extra actions, and inspiration points, you're bound to find something useful.

Swordsage is pretty good for this kind of thing; focus on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, and you should be golden.

Odd though it may sound, a few levels of Warblade would be good, too: with Int mod (max Warblade level) to Reflex, Int mod to crit confirms at lvl 3, and Uncanny Dodge (or Improved Uncanny Dodge, if you have it from another source already), this is a pretty good upgrade. It even gives more maneuvers, advances your initiator level, and gives you a few levels of full BAB and good Fort.

As for PrCs...Shadow Sun Ninja seems like it might fit, although I'm unsure of how optimal it is, as opposed to just more Swordsage. If you do end up going the Swordsage/Warblade route, I'd like to suggest the Master of Nine PrC: it's not focused on assassination, but mastery of martial maneuvers. If you're willing to focus on using them to perform assassinations, rather than focusing on the idea of being an assassin, it could work well for you.

[WesleyVos]

I like the Warblade addition, since I'm maxing Int for skill points anyway (and I have the points to spare to do it). Putting that with Swordsage and adding in the RKV levels to get the extra swift actions...this could work well.

Now just to figure out how to make it work...

[Snowbluff]

I know you said human... but Marrulurk. Sandstorm. :smalltongue:

[WesleyVos]

Yeah, but the Marrulurk is ECL 4, with the only real benefits being the Death Attack (really low DC, so not much of a benefit against any challenge for a level 9 character), it's breath (again, really low DC), poison (really low DC), and +2d6 sneak attack. Really, it's only the sneak attack that's beneficial. The +4 to hide and move silently would be good if they weren't so easily replicated (human skill point bonus, plus MW tools of hide and move silently (100 gp)).

I think the human's bonus feat and extra skill points make up most of the benefits without the ECL.

[Uncle Pine]

Yeah, but the Marrulurk is ECL 4, with the only real benefits being the Death Attack (really low DC, so not much of a benefit against any challenge for a level 9 character), it's breath (again, really low DC), poison (really low DC), and +2d6 sneak attack. Really, it's only the sneak attack that's beneficial. The +4 to hide and move silently would be good if they weren't so easily replicated (human skill point bonus, plus MW tools of hide and move silently (100 gp)).

I think the human's bonus feat and extra skill points make up most of the benefits without the ECL.
Remember that Marrulurks also get +2 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Wis and +4 Cha as racial modifiers and Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot as bonus feats.

EDIT: They're also Small, which means that the +4 racial bonus on Hide is actually a +8 total bonus on Hide. You also get a +1 size bonus to-hit, although you have to use Small weapons.

[Rebel7284]

A Marrulurk may be worth it if LA buyoff is allowed.

Just to get it out of the way, the most powerful way to build an assassin, is actually a wizard. Skry and die is a good approach. Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X also works.

However, getting back to the more fun factotum build. Factotum has two break points. 3 where you get your Int to Dex skills and 8 where the amazing extra actions come online.

I don't see why a factotum can't focus on killing. Between sneak attack, int to damage, and the ability to use Iajitsu focus if Oriental Adventures are in the game, it can have huge damage spikes. Sure it can do a little bit of everything, but you do ultimately have to focus a bit. :)

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, but the Marrulurk is ECL 4, with the only real benefits being the Death Attack (really low DC, so not much of a benefit against any challenge for a level 9 character), it's breath (again, really low DC), poison (really low DC), and +2d6 sneak attack. Really, it's only the sneak attack that's beneficial. The +4 to hide and move silently would be good if they weren't so easily replicated (human skill point bonus, plus MW tools of hide and move silently (100 gp)).

I think the human's bonus feat and extra skill points make up most of the benefits without the ECL.

The DC is based on your HD, not just RHD. 10+1/2HD+Cha, IIRC. Poison use allows use of ALL poisons.

Also, they get Point Blank Shot and Rapid shot as bonus feats, as was pointed out earlier.

[WesleyVos]

The DC is based on your HD, not just RHD. 10+1/2HD+Cha, IIRC. Poison use allows use of ALL poisons.

Also, they get Point Blank Shot and Rapid shot as bonus feats, as was pointed out earlier.

But PBS and RS are not extraordinarily useful for a melee-based assassin. In addition, the 3 RHD and 1 LA lose me four levels of maneuvers - that's hard to take, since swordsage maneuvers are so excellent.

It's something to consider, though.

[Uncle Pine]

But PBS and RS are not extraordinarily useful for a melee-based assassin. In addition, the 3 RHD and 1 LA lose me four levels of maneuvers - that's hard to take, since swordsage maneuvers are so excellent.

It's something to consider, though.
3 RHD net you an IL of 1,5. If you can buy the LA off, you can consider those RHD as actual sneak attack fighter levels (because IIRC monstrous humanoids have full BAB), except with huge ability boosts and some extra benefits.

[Emperor Tippy]

Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Hit-and-Run Fighter 1/ Factotum 1/ Swordsage 4.

Take the feats Craven and Shadow Blade. Use Martial Monk for Weapon Supremacy and (probably) Spring Attack.

Attribute points should go Dex, Strength, Int, Wis.

On any attack against a Flat Footed foe you can get +3d6+HD+Dex+Dex+Str damage. An IP adds +Int to that. Double damage is dealt if you use a Full Round Action for Decisive Strike (after a Sudden Leap to close the distance, for example).

On foes who aren't flat footed your damage tanks a bit (only +Dex and +Str) but you have your Swordsage maneuvers and with Cloak of Deception and the benefit of Invisible Fist (immediate action Invisibility for 1 round, can be used every 3 rounds) you should be able to consistently get your foes flat-footed.

Advancement wise, look at 7 more levels of Factotum as that will boost your damage and skill monkey abilities significantly. Three levels of Swashbuckler would also be a consistent damage boost (+Int to melee attacks). One level of Mindbender would be very nice, but you need at least 3 levels of Factotum for that, as it gives you Telepathy and thus qualifies you for Mindsight. One level of Exemplar can be great to pick up Skill Mastery (never again make a horrid Hide or Move Silently check, or tank a Spot or Listen check, for example).

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Straight Swordsage can make a fine assassin, although I recommend at least 1 level of Rogue (clears up potential issues with Craven and fills in some skill issues), 2 levels of Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk (Weapon Supremacy, no prerequisite Spring Attack, super nice Invisibility, double damage ability), and 1 level of Hit-and-Run Fighter (Dex to damage against flat-footed foes and a free Fighter bonus feat to spend on something like Martial Stance). That gives you an IL of 18 and thus doesn't cost you any maneuvers while giving you a lot more consistency in ability.