Bladecaster vs. Jade Phoenix Mage

[Manly Man]

Title says it all. Me and a friend are participating in a campaign that involves both Tome of Battle and the Path of War material that DSP made, and she's got a gestalt character that she's working on. The character is level 7, and she's gotten Warblade 6//Kensai (Magus archetype) 6, but is wondering what prestige classes to take, if any. Note that she switched out White Raven on the Warblade's side for Devoted Spirit (a fair enough trade, if you ask me), since the character is not much of a team player (was trained to mostly fight solitary). I was thinking to have her progress in Ruby Knight Vindicator on the Warblade side, but she's unsure about whether Bladecaster or Jade Phoenix Mage would be suitable.

Part of the setting is that hobgoblins are the masters of battle, and their nations have largely forsaken magic, in its place studying maneuvers instead. Their martial teachings have spread somewhat, but the other races lack the discipline to learn things so exacting, and so they developed what they could from the ways of the hobgoblins into their own styles; the crunch is that, by and large, the only ones with complete access to Path of War material is the hobgoblins, while at best, everyone else gets Tome of Battle with a taste of Path of War (mostly feats and such). The closest exception to this is my character, a half-orc raised amongst full-blooded kin, and she was found by a legendary hobgoblin Warlord (level 17, the lore behind him is largely that most people don't even think he existed, and is nothing but a fairy tale) when she got lost in the badlands who saw potential in her and trained her to be a Warlord instead of a Warblade, Primalist Bloodrager on the other half of her gestalt.

But I digress. What we were thinking of, since the Bladecaster doesn't advance any particular discipline, unlike the Tome of Battle classes, was that it would be fluffed as something like a more magically-oriented version of the Eternal Blade. Before she makes the decision, we decided to ask for the expert opinion of the forum about it, since while I'm quite adept with Tome of Battle (pun intended), I'm not as experienced with Path of War, and so I can't make any real judgments for my friend to go on.

[Elricaltovilla]

Snowbluff will probably come by to tell you that the bladecaster is a bad PrC. Personally, I disagree, although its not perfect. I think that a good way to look at it is that the Bladecaster is for Initiators who want to augment their abilities with spells, while the Jade Phoenix Mage is more for casters who want to initiate maneuvers.

You won't need Martial Caster, as Magus covers that.

Stance of Arcane Steel is alright, it lets you burn spells for boosts to various offensive and defensive stats. Combining Eldritch Smite with spellstrike would give you a hefty damage boost, although its definitely pricey. The nice thing about magus is that all their best stuff is pretty low level, meaning your upper level spells can be burned more easily for more powerful effects.

Arcane Steel+Spellstrike/buffing will give you a little more durability.

Unfortunately, as a magus you won't really be able to capitalize on Arcane Recovery, but its a pretty poor ability anyway.

Battlecaster's Strike should let you spellstrike when you initiate a maneuver, which is great for when you want to Nova. Its limited times per day though, so you might want to save it for when you really need it.

Arcane Ruin is kind of meh.

Martial Counterspell is nice if you face a lot of casters.

Improved Battlecasting opens up a slew of new options for spellstrike/Battlecaster Strike synergy.

Arcane Assault is an inverse Battlecaster's Strike, and might be good.
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I'm not 100% sure that its necessary to PrC on this build, although 4 levels of Bladecaster on the Warblade side nets you Battlecaster's Strike which is great. I recommend taking it on the warblade side as the Bladecaster fully progresses IL but you lose 2 caster levels as you go. I'm not sure if that actually protects your CL, as I don't play with Gestalt much.

RKV wouldn't really work with this build as it relies on completely different stats and you'd need to multiclass cleric or paladin which could make your IL and CL suffer. Likewise JPM has a different stat priority than intelligence if I recall correctly.

Final Ruling: PrC not really necessary, although 4 levels of Bladecaster is appealing (maybe 5 for the extra duration on Stance of Arcane Steel). Try to focus on capitalizing on the INT synergy.

I might be able to offer a little more advice if you could give a more complete picture of your friend's build. Which disciplines/maneuvers is she focusing on, what feats and equipment is she using?

[Extra Anchovies]

I was thinking to have her progress in Ruby Knight Vindicator on the Warblade side, but she's unsure about whether Bladecaster or Jade Phoenix Mage would be suitable.

So your game allows double theurging? Even theurging at all is not allowed under default gestalt rules, so I'm wondering what your reasoning is.

[Manly Man]

So your game allows double theurging? Even theurging at all is not allowed under default gestalt rules, so I'm wondering what your reasoning is.

The rules state that theurging is ill-advised, but not against the rules. If she wants to have such a headache, then she's perfectly clear to do so. None of the abilities are allowed to go past her HD, and she still has to be level 5 or higher before she's allowed to prestige out.

[Manly Man]

So, here's what she has put down:

1 Weapon Finesse
1K Weapon Focus (Katana)
3 Slashing Grace
5
5W
5M Intensified Spell
7 Advanced Study

add another empty slot at lvl 1 if flaw is allowed.


manuevers known

1st: sapphire nightmare, steel wind
2nd: mountain hammer, emerald razor
3rd: revitalizing strike, iron heart surge#
4th: Mithral Tornado, Ruby Nightmare Blade*, Divine Surge*

swap one at 4, one at 6 #, take advanced study *

stances:
1: Martial Spirit???
3: Pearl of Black Doubt???

She's not sure about her stances, obviously, but I think that's the gist of what she has so far.

[Elricaltovilla]

So, here's what she has put down:

1 Weapon Finesse
1K Weapon Focus (Katana)
3 Slashing Grace
5
5W
5M Intensified Spell
7 Advanced Study

add another empty slot at lvl 1 if flaw is allowed.


manuevers known

1st: sapphire nightmare, steel wind
2nd: mountain hammer, emerald razor
3rd: revitalizing strike, iron heart surge#
4th: Mithral Tornado, Ruby Nightmare Blade*, Divine Surge*

swap one at 4, one at 6 #, take advanced study *

stances:
1: Martial Spirit???
3: Pearl of Black Doubt???

She's not sure about her stances, obviously, but I think that's the gist of what she has so far.

Just in case you didn't know, slashing grace doesn't work. It lets you apply dex to damage with a slashing weapon, but you can't acutally finesse (dex to hit) with said weapon. I hope for her sake you fixed that.

Since she seems dex focused, capitalizing on that more is always a good idea. Agile Maneuvers perhaps? Combat Reflexes is another good one for catching enemies.

Martial Charge is a great Path of War feat for mobility, and Victorious Recovery is always a good option as well.

Are you using Pathfinder Traits at all? I highly recommend she take the Magical Lineage and Metamagic Master traits, then apply them to her favorite damage dealing spell (Shocking Grasp), they're good metamagic reducers for getting the most out of your spells. If you are using them, but she doesn't have them, she can get both of them for the cost of a feat by taking the Additional Traits feat.

[Manly Man]

Just in case you didn't know, slashing grace doesn't work. It lets you apply dex to damage with a slashing weapon, but you can't acutally finesse (dex to hit) with said weapon. I hope for her sake you fixed that.

I've actually been trying to convince her to take Deadly Agility instead, though I'm not sure how much that would help in comparison.

[Elricaltovilla]

I've actually been trying to convince her to take Deadly Agility instead, though I'm not sure how much that would help in comparison.

Considering she's using a Katana, it wouldn't. Deadly Agility only works with finesseable weapons. But! There is a solution depending on how much PoW content you're using. There is a new playtest document with a bunch of feats that was released, and one of those feats is called Katana Expertise. It increases the damage of the katana by 1 size and lets you treat the Katana as a light weapon for weapon finesse, meaning it becomes a legitimate choice for Deadly Agility.

Alternatively, she could use her warblade class features to switch her Weapon Focus to Rapier then take Fencing Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fencing-grace-combat). Or grab 2 ranks in Perform(dance) and switch it to a Scimitar and take dervish dance.

Or she could take EWP Elven Curve Blade (and use her warblade class features to switch her Weapon Focus to Elven Curve Blade) and use Deadly Agility with that. Its probably a better buy anyway, the stats for the Elven Curve Blade are much better than the base Katana, which she actually couldn't use with Slashing Grace even if it did work as she can't wield it one handed without EWP (Katana).

Seriously tell her to retrain Slashing Grace, its a broken feat.

[Manly Man]

Color me interested. Is the list of feats on Google Docs or somesuch? I'm getting ideas for some of my other characters.

[Elricaltovilla]

Color me interested. Is the list of feats on Google Docs or somesuch? I'm getting ideas for some of my other characters.

Go nuts kiddo (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit?usp=sharing)

[Jeff the Green]

The rules state that theurging is ill-advised, but not against the rules. If she wants to have such a headache, then she's perfectly clear to do so. None of the abilities are allowed to go past her HD, and she still has to be level 5 or higher before she's allowed to prestige out.

Not really. While theurges are only discouraged, double PrCing is banned.

[Manly Man]

Go nuts kiddo (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit?usp=sharing)

All of my thanks.


Not really. While theurges are only discouraged, double PrCing is banned.

Ah, brain fart. I was just thinking of the theurge thing. It usually goes that I allow prestige classes on both sides, but I think that yeah, all things considered, it's hardly necessary at this point.

[Snowbluff]

Snowbluff will probably come by to tell you that the bladecaster is a bad PrC. Personally, I disagree, although its not perfect. I think that a good way to look at it is that the Bladecaster is for Initiators who want to augment their abilities with spells, while the Jade Phoenix Mage is more for casters who want to initiate maneuvers.
DAMN STRAIGHT I WILL! ... Oh, you've already covered most of it.

Honestly, I dislike both, which is why I still wait for a better Initiator Gish. Bladecaster's biggest problem is the limited uses per day of it's abilities that also take an action that makes them exclusive with the rest of the book. JPM really doesn't have much to offer aside from a few cool tricks like the Wu Jen self destruction stuff.

Never use Martial Counterspell. Arcane Steel stance is bad, and even worse if you have access to Arcane Strike, and the worst if you're not using a fullcaster as your base. The simple math is that you can't benefit as well as you could because of the huge lack of spell levels a 6/9 caster has. You have to use a good number of attacks to really get your value out of it, but I think a Sorc/BC would blow away a Magus in that capacity it wouldn't even be funny.

[DarkSonic1337]

As long as you're gestalt gishing I'd actually recommend SWIFTBLADE over either battle caster or jade phoenix mage (on the levels that don't progress casting, take your casting base class on the other side of the gestalt).

You get some more action economy breakage, and the capstone will let you get TIMESTOP out of your 6th level Magus slots. Having an extra standard action will let you use spell combat and a maneuver in the same round, all affected by any boosts you use.


But of the two I'd go with Jade Phoenix mage. The free empower is okay, but the free quicken is GREAT! And Mystic Phoenix stance for +1 caster level isn't too shabby.