Party member doesn't want me to go Wild Magic Sorcerer

[Dalebert]

Two slots until level 11, even though they're per short rest, just feels painful. I'm 3rd lock and have been planning to dip 1 level sorcerer. Just being able to cast hex and still have those 2 slots seems really helpful. 1 level dragonblooded feels bad. I already have light armor as a lock so it gets me 1 more AC and 1 hp plus speaking draconic. Meh. Rarely relevant. Plus I just really don't like the idea of scaley skin. It just doesn't fit this character concept. I doubt I will ever go past 3-5 levels sorcerer, and even then many levels down the line so I'll be lvl 1 sorc for quite a while. I likely will never get lvl 6 bennies.

The only other sorcerer choice is wild magic but one member of my party seems particularly put off by having to deal with surges which can potentially negatively affect the entire party. It's understandable. I like the flavor of it. The effects are mostly neutral or good. Also, the Tides of Chaos ability is a lot more bang for the buck vs. the dragonblooded perks when stacked with lock and already wearing light armor IMO.

I had already thought this through and made my decision and even made the version of my character with a level of sorc in case we leveled during tonight's game when I found out a party member is really put off by this decision. Now I don't really like any of my remaining options. I'm not happy pure lock and I don't feel a level dip is worth it as dragonblooded. I'm contemplating bard but I feel like the party bard is put off by that choice.

Any tips? As much as I feel like I should play what I want, I do care about creating friction in the party. FWIW, my Int is 8 so wizard is out of the question. Also, gish is also not a concept I had for this character. I'm making a gish for other games. So I'm trying to focus on arcane casting.

[CyberThread]

Meh ask your DM to nerf the bad stuff, or just keep the silly fun stuff.

[Dalebert]

It seems rare for it to affect the entire party in a negative way. The only things that come to mind from my limited recollection are Grease and Fireball. Fireball REALLY sucks but it's so rare and unlikely. If we got hit with that at 4th level it could be devastating. But seriously? 1 in 50 chance per surge. Of course if it did happen, I would feel uber guilty, especially if it killed off party members, either directly or by weakening them severely in a critical moment. Honestly I'm feeling a little P.O.-ed at the developers for making the subclass so unappealing to party members with stuph like that.

[MaxWilson]

It seems rare for it to affect the entire party in a negative way. The only things that come to mind from my limited recollection are Grease and Fireball. Fireball REALLY sucks but it's so rare and unlikely. If we got hit with that at 4th level it could be devastating. But seriously? 1 in 50 chance per surge. Of course if it did happen, I would feel uber guilty, especially if it killed off party members, either directly or by weakening them severely in a critical moment. Honestly I'm feeling a little P.O.-ed at the developers for making the subclass so unappealing to party members with stuph like that.

Could you maybe work out a deal with your fellow PC wherein you will never cast Hex (from a Wild Mage slot) unless you're at least 30' away from him? "Hey, I'm a ticking time bomb. Sorry, but that's what the faeries cursed me with. I'll do my best to stick to demon-tainted magic instead."

[Oscredwin]

I did the math in another thread, you'll fireball yourself about once every 3 levels. You're just at the threshold where it's not going to kill everyone. Talk to your DM about it.

[Giant2005]

Go with the Bard. I'm sure your Bard companion wouldn't be put off consider with only 1 level you are hardly capable of doing much in the way of Bardly acts. All you really get is the use of Inspiration which your Bard friend will be benefiting from and probably very grateful to do so. That Inspiration ability is far superior to anything you will get from either of the Sorc classes and works better roleplaying-wise too - that Bard friend of yours could have taught you the craft and I'm sure they would love roleplaying you as their apprentice.
You said your Int was too low to go Wizard but what about your Wis? If it is high enough to go Cleric then that is certainly worth consideration. Clerics make for one of the best 1 level dips in the game and you could potentially upgrade that Light Armor of yours to Heavy or Medium with a Shield (Plus other goodies like the Guidance Cantrip and a potentially powerful level 1 ability depending on what Domain you choose). Although something like a Knowledge Cleric probably infringes on the Bard's turf more than a single level of Bard would...

EDIT: Forgot to mention this but the Wild Magic option really isn't as negative as your friend seems to think it is. Wild Surges only trigger when you cast a Sorcerer spell level 1 or higher - if you just stick to Sorcer Cantrips or using the Spell Slots to cast your Warlock spells, you will never experience a Wild Surge.

[Shadow]

EDIT: Forgot to mention this but the Wild Magic option really isn't as negative as your friend seems to think it is. Wild Surges only trigger when you cast a Sorcerer spell level 1 or higher - if you just stick to Sorcer Cantrips or using the Spell Slots to cast your Warlock spells, you will never experience a Wild Surge.

DM fiat on this one.
Personally, in this case, I'd rule that any spell cast from the sorc slots is subject to possible surge roll, regardless of the spell cast. He only has those slots from sorc, so using those slots would count.
In the case of a normal multiclass between sorc and any other non-pact caster the spell would matter.
In this case it wouldn't, unless he was casting a sorc spell form a warlock slot.

[Dalebert]

I did the math in another thread, you'll fireball yourself about once every 3 levels. You're just at the threshold where it's not going to kill everyone. Talk to your DM about it.

Is that figuring in Tides of Chaos? Use of that potentially raises the odds of a wild surge to 100% depending on the DM's call. It's left very vague. But it's a nice ability and I imagined it would be nice to get a surge and get it recharged.


Could you maybe work out a deal with your fellow PC wherein you will never cast Hex (from a Wild Mage slot) unless you're at least 30' away from him? "Hey, I'm a ticking time bomb. Sorry, but that's what the faeries cursed me with. I'll do my best to stick to demon-tainted magic instead."

Here's the thing. It's based on casting a sorcerer spell; not based on using a sorcerer slot. Hex is what I would mainly use those slots for but it won't trigger it. I will only know two sorcerer spells of 1st level but if I cast them with a warlock slot, it can potentially trigger a wild surge. For instance, I was considering Magic Missile for mobs which are difficult to hit. It scales up nicely with high level warlock slots that recharge each short rest. So I could theoretically be triggering a lot more surges than a typical 1st level sorcerer.

[Oscredwin]

Is that figuring in Tides of Chaos? Use of that potentially raises the odds of a wild surge to 100% depending on the DM's call. It's left very vague. But it's a nice ability and I imagined it would be nice to get a surge and get it recharged.

I basically assumed you would get an average of one surge per fight because that's what the DM would find "fun." DM fun varies of course, and your DM is not going to be like my DMs, but that was a rough guess at human behavior where there are no rules to govern.

[Scirocco]

Other players don't get to dictate what kind of character you play. As long as you're a team player and not prone to douchery, you're fine.

[Rilak]

Forgot to mention this but the Wild Magic option really isn't as negative as your friend seems to think it is. Wild Surges only trigger when you cast a Sorcerer spell level 1 or higher - if you just stick to Sorcer Cantrips or using the Spell Slots to cast your Warlock spells, you will never experience a Wild Surge.

It's pretty much (1-level dips):
Wild sorcerer: 1/long rest re-roll a save
Dragon sorcerer: 1 hp/level, 1 AC
Bard: Inspiration (d6), skill
Cleric: A ton of AC and useful stuff

If I was going to dip Sorcerer, I would wait until a little later and dip 3 levels for quicken spell. You will be able to spend your Sorcerer and Warlock slots on more quicken (although you will only quicken once per fight at Sorcerer 3, you can go to 4th for one more, etc).

[Dalebert]

Bard is starting to look a little more appealing. Another skill, 4 spells known including Cure Wounds and Bane which both scale nicely. Knowing Bane is like having an extra Invocation! (though a crappy one, IMHO) Although I'm wishing I had taken bard at 1st level and then switched to lock. The proficiencies take quite a hit. Meh. No biggie.

[Giant2005]

Although I'm wishing I had taken bard at 1st level and then switched to lock. The proficiencies take quite a hit. Meh. No biggie.

All you lose is two musical instrument proficiencies, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords and Dex save. By going Warlock first you gain Wis save which I think is better than Dex and considering you are planning on being a full caster, the weapon proficiencies don't matter at all. The only thing you really lose is two instrument proficiencies and I'm not sure why anyone would care about that... Although something for nothing is always good but in this case, it is something at the cost of Dex saves over Wis which I think makes it a fair trade.

[Dalebert]

The weapon proficiencies would have been nice, but you're right that it's not worth stressing over when I'm trying to focus on casting with this character.

[odigity]

Other players don't get to dictate what kind of character you play. As long as you're a team player and not prone to douchery, you're fine.

I'm the other player Dalebert mentioned.

No one is dictating anything; not sure why you're wasting time attacking a strawman. I just have an aversion to random unpredictable sillyness, especially since we're a highly tactical party that likes to control the variables in every encounter.

[Rilak]

4 spells known including Cure Wounds and Bane which both scale nicely. Knowing Bane is like having an extra Invocation!

Healing Word is better than Cure Wounds later on. It's a bonus action that can bring back a fallen comrade at range while still casting Eldritch Blast. Of course, you can get both. Neither affects your concentration spells (like Hex).

[Dalebert]

Further discussion on this subject will be academic as I'm pretty settled on going bard at this point. The bard in the party probably isn't going to like it but I don't plan to advance far and so I shouldn't step on his toes too much. I really feel like they got a bit carried away with the wild surges to the point I'm not surprised if it makes a wild magic sorcerer really unpopular in a party.

A few thoughts on why:

Knowing 4 spells instead of just 2.
Knowing Bane--like a free invocation but better.
Knowing Cure Wounds which scales well and means I can replace Spare the Dying in my tome with Shocking Grasp which I was planning to take as a sorcerer.
Getting another skill
More bardic inspiration is always nice, especially since even the bard can be inspired now. Maybe he'll actually appreciate that.


Healing Word is better than Cure Wounds later on. It's a bonus action that can bring back a fallen comrade at range while still casting Eldritch Blast. Of course, you can get both. Neither affects your concentration spells (like Hex).

Generally, yes, but I have a familiar that can deliver touch spells so I'm going to go Cure Wounds and encourage the "real" bard to go Healing Word so we have both. I figure if someone is down, the extra healing is likely needed, and I should generally be able to use my familiar's move actions to cast from wherever I am at the time. It will double as a nice between-combat heal.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Other players don't get to dictate what kind of character you play. As long as you're a team player and not prone to douchery, you're fine.

Waaay to many people need to remember this.

Just because you level of fantasy is X doesn't mean another level of fantasy is X.

Where X = low or X = High.

I hate the wild sorcerer but I would never overreach and tell another player not to use it... Even as a DM I won't tell a player not to use it.

[ghost_warlock]

Considering that warlock is already more than competent as a blaster, multiclassing into sorcerer would be mostly redundant if you're not planning on investing enough levels to get the real sorcerer goodies (i.e., metamagic).

As such, dipping bard is better in every conceivable way. More skills? Check. More spells known? Check. More versatility in what your spells can actually accomplish? Check.

I don't really understand why your party bard would mind. Having someone else in the party capable of providing emergency heals means that he can use more of his spell slots to do the awesome bardy things he chose the class for. Plus, he'll be able to benefit from your inspiration dice. It's really a win-win.

[Talderas]

It seems rare for it to affect the entire party in a negative way. The only things that come to mind from my limited recollection are Grease and Fireball. Fireball REALLY sucks but it's so rare and unlikely. If we got hit with that at 4th level it could be devastating. But seriously? 1 in 50 chance per surge. Of course if it did happen, I would feel uber guilty, especially if it killed off party members, either directly or by weakening them severely in a critical moment. Honestly I'm feeling a little P.O.-ed at the developers for making the subclass so unappealing to party members with stuph like that.

Fireball's chances are 0.1% everytime Wild Magic Surge has to be rolled. It's a 5% chance of triggering wild magic surge then 2% chance of triggering fireball. That's just like every other option. For even more humorous fun, you are the one that casts that fireball. If your DM is a jerk and has you roll it for every 1st+ spell you cast then you have a 0.1% chance of first triggering maximizing the next damage spell you cast then a 0.1% to trigger fireball after casting a non-damage spell which causes the fireball to be maximized. So a 0.0001% chance for that outcome. This, of course, kind of requires you DM to be a bit of a jerk and require you to roll 1d20 every time you cast a spell for wild magic surge.

[Dalebert]

I don't really understand why your party bard would mind. Having someone else in the party capable of providing emergency heals means that he can use more of his spell slots to do the awesome bardy things he chose the class for. Plus, he'll be able to benefit from your inspiration dice. It's really a win-win.

Especially true considering we still have no cleric and we're about to lose our NPC druid.

[MaxWilson]

I basically assumed you would get an average of one surge per fight because that's what the DM would find "fun." DM fun varies of course, and your DM is not going to be like my DMs, but that was a rough guess at human behavior where there are no rules to govern.

Don't you mean that the DM might make you roll for a Wild Surge once per fight? No way are you actually going to roll that 5% Wild Surge chance in every single fight, because you don't cast 20 spells per fight. Tides of Chaos can increase the odds because it's 100% instead of 5%, but you still shouldn't be using Tides of Chaos in every single fight.

[Kurald Galain]

It seems rare for it to affect the entire party in a negative way.

Yes, until the moment where your party is on a stealth mission, you try a quiet Knock or Invisibility spell and randomly roll something that's extremely loud and eye-catching :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

Yes, until the moment where your party is on a stealth mission, you try a quiet Knock or Invisibility spell and randomly roll something that's extremely loud and eye-catching :smallbiggrin:

There is no such thing as a "quiet Knock".

[Kurald Galain]

There is no such thing as a "quiet Knock".

There is compared to the one that detonates a Fireball :smalltongue:

[Dalebert]

Other players don't get to dictate what kind of character you play. As long as you're a team player and not prone to douchery, you're fine.

Again, not going sorcerer, but...

It's not that the sorcerer is being a douche. His magic is. It's beyond his control. The problem here is assuming the PC glow, i.e. "This character has a special glow about him that separates him from any other NPC in the world. Let's treat him with extra favoritism because of that metagame reason." Because if you had a character who was regularly disrupting plans, and if he wasn't making up for that with particular awesomeness, then why would you keep him around? This seems particularly true with a character who is a sorcerer from the start and you haven't had time to develop an endearing friendship before his powers start messing stuff up. Maybe things would be different if his powers developed late, e.g. a char whom the party has experience with dipping sorcerer later in his progress.

[Greylind]

Wild Magic sorcerers definitely add to the fun and chaos. The one in my campaign managed to turn himself into an 11 year-old.

[Shining Wrath]

Other players don't get to dictate your build.

You're supposed to roll on the table at DM whim, but only if you first roll a 1 on a D20. So you'll get hit with one of the bad results (turn yourself into a potted plant, fireball) about 1 time in 1000 for each of them (1/20th of 50 possible results).

Ask your DM if you can customize the wild magic table to nerf it in both directions.

[Scirocco]

Other players don't get to dictate your build.

You're supposed to roll on the table at DM whim, but only if you first roll a 1 on a D20. So you'll get hit with one of the bad results (turn yourself into a potted plant, fireball) about 1 time in 1000 for each of them (1/20th of 50 possible results).


That's how Wild Magic Surge works, but the Tides of Chaos feature depends on your DM letting you roll on the table before regaining it (or a long rest, but that would really suck).

The Wild Mage is for the risk taker; if it actually adds an element of possible failure in an encounter (rather than the assumption that the PCs will have already conquered it before it begins, which seems to be what "tactical" playing constitutes) that can only be a good thing.

[silveralen]

I mean, looking at the larger picture, is a one level dip actually going to make you start enjoying this character?

I just have a hard time imagining it radically increasing your enjoyment. Having one level one slot and two level X slots doesn't seem like a big change, and you end updelaying a lot of other stuff. Might be time for a reroll, or a rebuild if your DM is open to it.

Invocations could help as well, depending on how restricted you feel and what you want to do.

Not to say you shouldn't dip if you want to, just explain the situation to the DM and make sure he doesn't toss any effects that target people other than you. Preventing table conflict is something he should be open to. I'm just not convinced this will actually increase your enjoyment.

[odigity]

Other players don't get to dictate your build.

Congrats, you're now the third poster to attack this strawman. I'm not sure why this keeps happening.

No one is dictating anything. That's not what this thread is about.

[Person_Man]

I also personally dislike the Wild Magic Sorcerer, and would express similar (mild) reservations. A default core option should not be a random chance of accidentally killing other party members, however small or dependent on DM fiat that chance might be.

I know that it's not logically comparable (especially in this situation), but it feels like the same sort of player who insists on playing with Wild Magic (I'm not the one killing you, its my wacky magic!) also plays characters who use the alignment system as an excuse for stupidity (Sorry I started a brawl with the King who was trying to give us a quest, but I'm Chaotic, it's what my character would do) or play a Kender (I have to steal stuff from you and the town guards, its what my people do).

Again, I want to reiterate that I'm not saying my observation applies in this situation. I'm just saying that my previous experiences with players who chose to use random/wild magic and similar mechanics in previous editions has left me with bad impressions of it for this edition.


I would ask to re-fluff the dragonblooded sorcerer into some other heritage that you prefer (fey, demon, angel, etc). Alternatively, ask the DM if you could use the Sorcerer's spellcasting base class features and spell list, but choose the abilities from a Wizard Specialization (again, refluffed as needed).

[odigity]

I would ask to re-fluff the dragonblooded sorcerer into some other heritage that you prefer (fey, demon, angel, etc).

That is an awesome idea. I mean, the fluff for Sorcerer is that the magic is an innate ability derived from some kind of non-humanoid ancenstry. They present a subclass for Draconic, but they should have added subclasses for the other creature types you mentioned. Huge missed opportunity to give players a wider variety of enjoyable options.

[Safety Sword]

That is an awesome idea. I mean, the fluff for Sorcerer is that the magic is an innate ability derived from some kind of non-humanoid ancenstry. They present a subclass for Draconic, but they should have added subclasses for the other creature types you mentioned. Huge missed opportunity to give players a wider variety of enjoyable options.

It's not really a missed opportunity. You can still do it.

I think they wanted to steer away from devils (because warlock) and angels (because cleric) etc.

No reason you can't do it though. I think anything has to be better than a random chance to ruin party fun.

[SharkForce]

[snip]

Because if you had a character who was regularly disrupting plans, and if he wasn't making up for that with particular awesomeness, then why would you keep him around?

[snip]

the wild magic sorcerer *is* adding particular awesomeness far more often than they generate something awful. ranging from non-action magic missiles that don't use slots, to maximized damage spells, to forcing enemies to take disadvantage on spells, to getting more uses of metamagic, to healing yourself, to summoning unicorns (which hopefully will be far more likely to side with you than against you), and so on.

there is a *chance* that they will screw everything up. but realistically, that was likely to happen sooner or later anyways. there is a much higher chance that they will do something awesome or something that doesn't matter at all.

now i'll grant you, that chance of screwing everything up is pretty significant. but there really is a lot more good stuff or neutral stuff than bad stuff.

[odigity]

there is a *chance* that they will screw everything up. but realistically, that was likely to happen sooner or later anyways. there is a much higher chance that they will do something awesome or something that doesn't matter at all.

now i'll grant you, that chance of screwing everything up is pretty significant. but there really is a lot more good stuff or neutral stuff than bad stuff.

Even if it was only 10% bad, I'd still be against it -- and it's far more than 10% bad.

If you're planning for an encounter, and applying good tactics, then a surprise bonus effect is nice, but unnecessary. However, a surprise negative affect could screw everything up. The good doesn't make up for the bad. I'ts not a 1:1 comparison. A little bit of random bad far outweighs a whole lot of random good.

[Dalebert]

I mean, looking at the larger picture, is a one level dip actually going to make you start enjoying this character?

Yes, obviously. This feels like a general "don't multiclass" opinion, and you're entitled to your opinion, of course. But it seems clear that I would not be doing it if I didn't think it would increase my enjoyment of the character. I have of course weighed the pros and cons and decided I prefer to.

[Iolo Morganwg]

Even if it was only 10% bad, I'd still be against it -- and it's far more than 10% bad.

If you're planning for an encounter, and applying good tactics, then a surprise bonus effect is nice, but unnecessary. However, a surprise negative affect could screw everything up. The good doesn't make up for the bad. I'ts not a 1:1 comparison. A little bit of random bad far outweighs a whole lot of random good.

Would you also be opposed to a single-classed wild sorcerer in your party?

I suspect yes, and it sounds like that is because there's a certain MO for this party that wild mage doesn't jibe with.

[Jacob.Tyr]

As someone who prefers to throw encounters that include a chance of PC death, and doesn't like to Dues Ex Machina or otherwise DM fiat PC death away, I really don't think I'd let anyone play a Wild Magic sorc in a game I was running. No offense to those who like the idea, it would just make balancing things even harder for me. If I left my game the way it is, the first time a negative surge happened there'd probably be a TPK. Since one is bound to crop up every few levels at least, I'd rather not have my players reroll more frequently than they gain ability increases.

[silveralen]

Yes, obviously. This feels like a general "don't multiclass" opinion, and you're entitled to your opinion, of course. But it seems clear that I would not be doing it if I didn't think it would increase my enjoyment of the character. I have of course weighed the pros and cons and decided I prefer to.

Then by all means do so, I'm just skeptical that you will go from completely bored with your character and not enjoying it to 100% on board, which in turn makes me wonder if annoying your friend was worth it.

[ghost_warlock]

Yes, obviously. This feels like a general "don't multiclass" opinion, and you're entitled to your opinion, of course. But it seems clear that I would not be doing it if I didn't think it would increase my enjoyment of the character. I have of course weighed the pros and cons and decided I prefer to.

I'm as playing a warlock that I intend to multiclass bard. I think I'll wait until after I get my 1st stat increase at 4th, however. After that, I'll grab bard 1, then two more levels of warlock for 3rd-level spells and another invocation (kick off the devil's sight+darkness/hunger of hadar fun), then dump three levels into bard for some goodies and another stat increase. Warlock the rest of the way. 9th-level spells are great and all, but I don't expect this campaign to last that long anyway so tons of 1st- and 2nd-level spell slots seems a better investment for me.

[EvilAnagram]

Even if it was only 10% bad, I'd still be against it -- and it's far more than 10% bad.

If you're planning for an encounter, and applying good tactics, then a surprise bonus effect is nice, but unnecessary. However, a surprise negative affect could screw everything up. The good doesn't make up for the bad. I'ts not a 1:1 comparison. A little bit of random bad far outweighs a whole lot of random good.
It really depends on the kind of party. Some parties aren't entirely serious, and a Wild Sorcerer will add a ton of fun.


Snip
If there are a few players with reservations about the Wild Magic, then you should probably think about something else. If it's one guy being a stick in the mud, go Wild.

[MaxWilson]

Even if it was only 10% bad, I'd still be against it -- and it's far more than 10% bad.

If you're planning for an encounter, and applying good tactics, then a surprise bonus effect is nice, but unnecessary. However, a surprise negative affect could screw everything up. The good doesn't make up for the bad. I'ts not a 1:1 comparison. A little bit of random bad far outweighs a whole lot of random good.

While I am generally also an extremely tactical D&D player, the above statement rubs me wrong, because the obvious counter-tactic is to just say, "Hey warlock, don't use any wild magic during this encounter, we're trying to be sneaky and we don't want anything messing it up." It's not like wild surges happen for no reason, you know, they are always tied to a trigger--and for a level 1 Wild Mage (which the OP is no longer even considering, given that he's now planning on dipping Bard instead), forgoing level 1 spells in particularly dicey encounters shouldn't be a party-breaker.

[Xetheral]

As someone who prefers to throw encounters that include a chance of PC death, and doesn't like to Dues Ex Machina or otherwise DM fiat PC death away, I really don't think I'd let anyone play a Wild Magic sorc in a game I was running. No offense to those who like the idea, it would just make balancing things even harder for me. If I left my game the way it is, the first time a negative surge happened there'd probably be a TPK. Since one is bound to crop up every few levels at least, I'd rather not have my players reroll more frequently than they gain ability increases.

I too wouldn't permit wild magic sorcerers in my game, for the reasons described above. Additionally, I'm not comfortable asking the other players to simply overlook the RP considerations involved.... In my opinion, it takes an extremely foolhardy personality to adventure alongside a sorcerer who appears unable to fully control their abilities.

[EvilAnagram]

I too wouldn't permit wild magic sorcerers in my game, for the reasons described above. Additionally, I'm not comfortable asking the other players to simply overlook the RP considerations involved.... In my opinion, it takes an extremely foolhardy personality to adventure alongside a sorcerer who appears unable to fully control their abilities.

"This guy's a bit off but he's pretty damn useful and we wouldn't have taken out that dragon without him."

There. Easy justification. I tend to play in very deadly games and have had multiple TPKs both as a DM and a player. Wild Magic still seems fun though, and I tend to immediately chafe at the idea of "Bad-Wrong-Fun" in a game that's meant to be a collaborative and enjoyable experience.

[Xetheral]

"This guy's a bit off but he's pretty damn useful and we wouldn't have taken out that dragon without him."

There. Easy justification. I tend to play in very deadly games and have had multiple TPKs both as a DM and a player. Wild Magic still seems fun though, and I tend to immediately chafe at the idea of "Bad-Wrong-Fun" in a game that's meant to be a collaborative and enjoyable experience.

If anything in my post made you think I was trying to imply anyone was engaging in Bad-Wrong-Fun, you have my apologies. I was only trying to relate why I wouldn't allow the Wild Magic Sorcerer in my games.

[Demonic Spoon]

As someone who prefers to throw encounters that include a chance of PC death, and doesn't like to Dues Ex Machina or otherwise DM fiat PC death away, I really don't think I'd let anyone play a Wild Magic sorc in a game I was running. No offense to those who like the idea, it would just make balancing things even harder for me. If I left my game the way it is, the first time a negative surge happened there'd probably be a TPK. Since one is bound to crop up every few levels at least, I'd rather not have my players reroll more frequently than they gain ability increases.

By the opposite token, wouldn't the majority case be that the wild magic surge provides some beneficial effect, thus preventing PC death (or allowing them to expend fewer resources thus avoiding PC death in a future encounter)?

[McBars]

Congrats, you're now the third poster to attack this strawman. I'm not sure why this keeps happening.

No one is dictating anything. That's not what this thread is about.

It isn't? Because the title, OP, and your defensiveness strongly indicate otherwise.

[Dalebert]

Then by all means do so, I'm just skeptical that you will go from completely bored with your character and not enjoying it to 100% on board, which in turn makes me wonder if annoying your friend was worth it.

Completely bored? Those are your words. I don't where you're getting that from. Annoying my friend? What did I do to annoy my friend?

I am simply weighing options and picking what's best. I don't understand why you're making this sound so melodramatic. I'm just making some choices about my character and asking for thoughts.

[silveralen]

Completely bored? Those are your words. I don't where you're getting that from. Annoying my friend? What did I do to annoy my friend?

I am simply weighing options and picking what's best. I don't understand why you're making this sound so melodramatic. I'm just making some choices about my character and asking for thoughts.

Maybe I read to much into "I'm not happy pure lock" but it seemed to me you weren't enjoying the character. That is what not happy means, right?

As for annoying a friend, if "a party member is really put off by this decision" I assumed annoyed would be a decent way to summarize their feeling.

Sorry for paraphrasing, but the basic assumption that you weren't happy with the character to the point you needed to multi class and it bothering a fellow player seemed to be the crux of the thread. Maybe I got confused somewhere.

[Mechaviking]

Straight up I think wild magic is weaker, you are trading 13 fixed AC for an advantage on 1-2 rolls in combat where you fight mostly with spells(they would hopefully be saving throws but not always the case).

Unless your DM thinks this is really bad just go for it, make him work up a skull sweat around the surges :D

[SharkForce]

tides of chaos can be used on attack rolls and ability checks (like dispel magic and counterspell) too. not all spells are save or X.

and as noted, most of the time wild surges are beneficial or inconsequential.

[Shining Wrath]

That's how Wild Magic Surge works, but the Tides of Chaos feature depends on your DM letting you roll on the table before regaining it (or a long rest, but that would really suck).

The Wild Mage is for the risk taker; if it actually adds an element of possible failure in an encounter (rather than the assumption that the PCs will have already conquered it before it begins, which seems to be what "tactical" playing constitutes) that can only be a good thing.

The number of times a sorcerer uses Tides of Chaos per day ought to be small relative to the number of times they cast a sorcerer spell.

[Dalebert]

Maybe I read to much into "I'm not happy pure lock" but it seemed to me you weren't enjoying the character. That is what not happy means, right?

No. I've had great fun so far. I'm only 3rd level though and 2 slots per short rest isn't bad... so far. At the moment, I am competitive with the spell slots of other casters at this level. We've had some drawn out encounters but we outclassed the creatures so it was fine. This was not buyer's remorse. I planned to level dip the moment I made the character. I feel the class design falls a little short for single classed chars going forward but warlock seems to be a very popular class to dip. People like taking 2 or 3 levels to grab a couple invocations and a couple spell slots that renew every short rest to compliment abilities from another class. I'm going farther in the class than anyone I know in my local gaming community.

But 2 slots all the way until level 11? I anticipated frustration during particularly tough or drawn-out encounters. While another caster could blow through half their spell slots in a pinch, a lock has 2, maybe less if you just had a fight and haven't had a chance for a short rest. A common problem in a dungeon is making noise in one fight and drawing in more mobs before you've had a chance to recover so you obviously can't always know when this is going to happen. It wouldn't be so bad if the invocations made up for it better but so many of them are once per day spells that STILL use one of your 2 slots.



As for annoying a friend, if "a party member is really put off by this decision" I assumed annoyed would be a decent way to summarize their feeling.


I had no idea it was going to annoy anyone when I made the decision and ultimately I agreed with him that it's not a good fit. But that's what your post implied. You speak of multiclassing like it's some violation of the normal order of things, while I find it to be a fairly common choice. It's just part of realizing your character concept and customizing your character.


Sorry for paraphrasing, but the basic assumption that you weren't happy with the character to the point you needed to multi class and it bothering a fellow player seemed to be the crux of the thread. Maybe I got confused somewhere.

It's just you're using loaded terminology and reading things into my statements that aren't there. See--"to the point you needed to multiclass"--as if multiclassing is some act of desperation. It was always my plan for the character just like someone forgoing +2 stat points for a feat. I wouldn't put someone on the defensive for making that choice either as if they were somehow violating the normal order of things. I always knew I was going to level dip and my party members knew. I didn't get "totally bored" with my character and then suddenly decide that. It wasn't a case of buyer's remorse. I had the plan when I saw 2 slots all the way to 11th in the lock design. I just hadn't settled on the specifics. I only knew fairly confidently that it would be a Cha-based caster.

[odigity]

There's a lot of projecting of personal issues happening in this thread, Dalebert. Three people have accused me of being a dictator, and did you catch that guy trying to get a reaction out of me by calling me defensive for calling out people for strawmanning? It's like they think they can convince us that our reality is different than we know it to be, even though the two people involved in the OP situation are both actively posting in this thread and get along fine. :)

[silveralen]

I had no idea it was going to annoy anyone when I made the decision and ultimately I agreed with him that it's not a good fit. But that's what your post implied. You speak of multiclassing like it's some violation of the normal order of things, while I find it to be a fairly common choice. It's just part of realizing your character concept and customizing your character.

I always knew I was going to level dip and my party members knew. I didn't get "totally bored" with my character and then suddenly decide that. It wasn't a case of buyer's remorse. I had the plan when I saw 2 slots all the way to 11th in the lock design. I just hadn't settled on the specifics. I only knew fairly confidently that it would be a Cha-based caster.

Ah, now I see. I hadn't realized MCing was always part of the character, the way it was worded I though this was a spur of the moment descion due to disliking things about your character, rather than a descion you had already reached during character creation. I think the fact you decided on wild mage is what confused me, I didn't realize your build just included plans for a cha caster dip without specifying which.

[Finieous]

Eh, I get it. If I were an adventurer, I'd want a minimum level of confidence in the basic competence of my comrades. Wild magic sorcerers are fundamentally incompetent. I couldn't see trusting my life to someone with such a lack of control and mastery of their own lethal powers.

A lot of D&D games are sufficiently gonzo that this kind of concern isn't warranted. In games where it is, though, I wouldn't want to play or play with an incompetent sorcerer. Nothing wrong with talking that through and looking for options.

[McBars]

There's a lot of projecting of personal issues happening in this thread, Dalebert. Three people have accused me of being a dictator, and did you catch that guy trying to get a reaction out of me by calling me defensive for calling out people for strawmanning? It's like they think they can convince us that our reality is different than we know it to be, even though the two people involved in the OP situation are both actively posting in this thread and get along fine. :)

Listen bud, I don't give two twinned turkey turds (4 turkey turds if you're keeping track) about your reaction or lack thereof. You're just not that important, so climb off that high horse of yours. I just found your passive aggression cloaked in calling out "strawmen" to be absurd, smug, and annoying.

You and your pal got along so well he needed to solicit the opinions of strangers to help work out your group dynamic issues and affirm his character choices; so don't be upset when said strangers have a critical thing or 3 to say about the situation. Especially by erroneously calling "strawman!" like that obnoxious guy who took Philosophy 101: Critical Thinking in college and thinks he knows logical fallacies now.

My $0.02 on the op is: play what you think is fun. If random magical effects aren't in your definition of fun, wild magic sorc is probably not for you this time around (though personally I find them incredibly entertaining.)

[EvilAnagram]

When I played 4e, my favorite character was a Chaos Sorcerer. We houseruled some stuff along the same line of thought as the Wild Magic table because it was fun. And now I really want to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer because accidentally summoning a unicorn when I cast Invisibility sounds fun.

I will name it Sparkle Berries. And it will be magnificent.

[pwykersotz]

When I played 4e, my favorite character was a Chaos Sorcerer. We houseruled some stuff along the same line of thought as the Wild Magic table because it was fun. And now I really want to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer because accidentally summoning a unicorn when I cast Invisibility sounds fun.

I will name it Sparkle Berries. And it will be magnificent.

Truly magnificent. Well done. :smallbiggrin:

http://image.blingee.com/images15/content/output/000/000/000/4c9/342689703_409006.gif?4

[Shining Wrath]

When I played 4e, my favorite character was a Chaos Sorcerer. We houseruled some stuff along the same line of thought as the Wild Magic table because it was fun. And now I really want to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer because accidentally summoning a unicorn when I cast Invisibility sounds fun.

I will name it Sparkle Berries. And it will be magnificent.

It seems as though you have fun with magic elf games. May the Force be with you.

[Nargrakhan]

#1: Say you're not going Wild Magic Sorcerer.

#2: Go ahead and go Wild Magic Sorcerer anyways.

#3: ???? (Literally)

#4: PROFIT!!!

[Dalebert]

When I played 4e, my favorite character was a Chaos Sorcerer. We houseruled some stuff along the same line of thought as the Wild Magic table because it was fun. And now I really want to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer because accidentally summoning a unicorn when I cast Invisibility sounds fun.

I will name it Sparkle Berries. And it will be magnificent.

Absolutely it can be fun. I do think it depends on the tone of the game and that tone is set by the DM and all the players. I play in another game where I think a wild mage sorcerer would be embraced and they'd get a kick out of it. The tone of this game is a little more serious. That's not a negative on Odigity or any of the others at all. It's just a play style preference.

http://www.pbfcomics.com/103/

That said, the wild mage sorcerer seems a little sloppily designed. Seems the wild mage in 3.5 was an ambitious mage trying to control a special kind of magic that could potentially be more powerful if you could handle it. He got better at controlling it as he leveled. I wish it was more like that, but that would have taken more thought and possibly more pages to explain. As it is, the effects are not at all level dependent. The plusses and minuses should both scale. It would also be nice if the sorcerer's ability to nudge it toward the positive should scale as well. As it is, it's completely random and doesn't scale at all until eventually, all of a sudden, an epic level sorcerer has two choices.