A strange problem with PCs and WBL: heavy ignorance!

[Dr TPK]

In our campaign, I try to keep a decent hold on the PCs' wealth by level. There's a slight in-game problem...

Some of the loot are magical items, gold and gems. The rest are other items, mostly masterwork weapons and armor. The PCs have decided, for some odd reason, that only the aforementioned three types of loot (magic, gold and gems) are worth their time and they ignore the rest. It seems that they are actively disregarding one-third of the loot.

Since it's an in-game problem, I don't want to talk to them about in off-game. What do you think? What should I do?

[Hazrond]

well if i were you i would start giving them tons of semi-useless magic stuff instead, one example i have seen a few times is a book that eats other books and adds them to itself without ever changing size, so giving them little magic knick-knacks might work and you can sell it off for the same amount of gold later on

[Lanson]

If they have no extra dimensional storage or mules, your players may see weapons, armor and the like are not worth their time due to encumbrance. I run into it a lot in my gaming groups. "less than one hundred gold for five hundred pounds of crap, and this one gem is worth one hundred-fifty? Pass on the heavy stuff guys, look for more gems!" Actually heard that recently in play.

[Hazrond]

If they have no extra dimensional storage or mules, your players may see weapons, armor and the like are not worth their time due to encumbrance. I run into it a lot in my gaming groups. "less than one hundred gold for five hundred pounds of crap, and this one gem is worth one hundred-fifty? Pass on the heavy stuff guys, look for more gems!" Actually heard that recently in play.

tis part of the reason i suggested magic doodads, it lets you still compress the money down more which helps with encumberance (one of the WORST mechanics in my opinion)

[Eldan]

You can make strong ingame suggestions. Say, there's an announcement that the Duke's armoury is sorely in need of good weapons since such a lot of them were stolen by monsters and will pay an extra 20% for them. (Then give a list of what they'd pay for it). Or give them a quest where a merchant had a caravan of salt or ore stolen and they have to retrieve it for a reward.

[Coidzor]

Since it's an in-game problem, I don't want to talk to them about in off-game. What do you think? What should I do?

I don't know why you'd be so hesistant to talk to them if it bothers you enough to ask us for advice.

Granted, I can definitely sympathize with them for not really wanting to muck about with collecting and keeping track of what vendor trash they have.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If they have no extra dimensional storage or mules, your players may see weapons, armor and the like are not worth their time due to encumbrance. I run into it a lot in my gaming groups. "less than one hundred gold for five hundred pounds of crap, and this one gem is worth one hundred-fifty? Pass on the heavy stuff guys, look for more gems!" Actually heard that recently in play.

This. Even with dimensional storage, anything short of a portable hole is easily filled to capacity after a few encounters if you insist on looting every armor and weapon, for minimal wealth gain. And OOC it's a lot of paperwork to keep track of for relatively minor amounts of gold.

[Kraken]

As a player, I'll never be interested in writing down all the mundane weapons and armor that foes are dropping. D&D already involves enough bookkeeping, and I have no interest in keeping a tally of how much studded leather, plate mail, chain shirts, longsords, shortswords, shortbows, light crossbows, heavy crossbows, ammunition, spears, daggers, and so forth are accumulating. The only situations in which parties I've played with have picked up this type of stuff and gone to the hassle of doing something with it have been because there was one particular person who was just into that sort of thing, or we knew there was a nearby town in need of aid. And in the aid situation, I've never itemized what's been picked up, it's relegated to something along the lines of, 'we give everything to the militia captain,' and get back to business.

If you really want your players to pick up these things, give them some a plot hook. It doesn't take a lot, just have someone in the next town they run into mention that the local blacksmith will pay well for scrap, and that if you curry their favor, they might let you buy items in the back room that are normally reserved for privileged customers. It takes them down the road you want them to go, and it won't take up much additional table time.

[Marlowe]

If you think this is a problem, then I gather you've never played with somebody who insists on carrying off every piece of scale armour, spear, and javelin we find for resale, "forgets" to add it to his encumbrance, doesn't get that others besides the PCs who participated might be entitled to a share, prioritizes stripping the enemy dead over assisting with any other foes who might be active, and spends 10-15 minutes after every encounter calculating how much richer he's become.

[aleucard]

If you really want to make the players more interested in the vendor trash gear, then have a minor side-quest of people like collectors, bounty-board runners, and other people that may be inordinately interested in unique or specialized equipment that certain groups may have. You just got finished raiding a goblin camp? There's a local city that rewards people for bringing in proof of goblin-kills (and the gear is less stinky and lighter than the corpse). You just got finished cleaning out yet another undead crypt? Those things have some mighty oddly decorated equipment pieces, and well preserved for their age too; off to the museum with it! A moderate GP markup and some extra XP in reward (if not reputation, should your campaign use such a mechanic) should do the trick.

[heavyfuel]

If your players are new, it's ok to give them some leeway, but simply giving them more wealth because they don't pick up items to sell is bad in the long term because it shows them that their actions regarding a facet of the game doesn't affect the outcome of said facet.

The best solution is probably just tell them that masterwork weapons and alike are good loot, and can be sold. This can be done OOC or IC. Doing it IC can be as simple as a smith saying that his MW Weapons were stolen and then having him killed as the PCs are questing for the weapons. Now they have a bunch of MW weapons and no quest giver to reward them. Any reasonable PC will see this as a way to make some extra cash, and if noone does, you can have a random NPC offer to buy them

[VincentTakeda]

I'm running pathfinder's skulls and shackles (players run a pirate ship) so it has developed this notion of 'plunder'... a non descript pile of goodness worth about 1000gp.

So when they pirate a ship, there's a point or two of plunder, plus the ship they can sell for typically as much as '5 points of plunder'

Now I'm not a fan of mechanics that 'generalize and take away the flavor' of the game, so I built a table of every possible thing that I'd consider to be reasonable plunder... 1000 gold pieces is how much of such and such a thing.

The idea within the setting is that if you take over a ship, those 2 points of plunder could just as easily a single ruby or 4 pounds of platinum as it could be 100 tons of wheat or 2 tons of tobacco, half ton of soap or 200 pig or 50 tons of potatos... 10 pounds of black powder, or a single 6th level scroll... Its not a big list... At the end of the day you can only slice up treasure into about 160 possible things or categories of things, and even a big hoard is rarely ever even as diverse as 16 different things at once... Coins, gems, rings, scrolls, trade goods, arms and armor, potions and wands...

My players found a dragon and I was trying to put together a dragon hoard and it occured to me that while its true that a dragon hoard probably contains lots of coins and gems, sure... But also that some items on my ship's plunder table might not be so out of place in a dragon hoard either... So when they found the hoard, it included nearly 47 tons of sheep and cattle, which was quite a flavorful change of pace. Dragon's gotta eat, man...

Non pirate ship party would probably not like finding that but this particular group found it funny. They too were going to leave the livestock behind until they discovered their ship's hold had room for all of it.

[ILM]

Throwing out thoughts:
- encumbrance dictates gp per pound/volume. A masterwork sword takes the same amount of space as a +1 sword, except it's worth like a tenth of the gp. If your players are ignoring a full third of the loot, it means that for every +1 sword they find they run into like 4 masterwork ones...
- ease of re-use / re-sale of magic items. It should be much harder to offload random loot during downtime. Not all vendors have thousands of gold in cash (or goods worth that in store credit) to take items off your hands; and there are some items you just wouldn't use (inappropriate size, useless abilities, redundancy, etc.). On the other hand, it should be easier to sell a bunch of incredibly well-made swords to some minor noble who needs to equip his boys or something.
- insufficient fluff. Masterwork items are works of art so if you start distributing them and going like "you find another two masterwork swords here", of course PCs aren't going to be very interested.

Of course, the latter two are a necessity of playing a game and not a commerce simulator. If you start describing every tiny bit of junk in intricate detail and force your players to spend IC and OOC time to find vendors for the magical crap you loaded them with, expect some pushback. At the end of the day, I think the simple truth is that D&D is designed for adventurers to start ignoring nonmagical stuff from a very early stage. The simplest fix is to let them and give them more magic stuff if you want them to stay close to standard WBL.

[Telok]

Hand made illuminated manuscripts worth thousands of gold. Decorative silver shield commerating a historic battle, twenty thousand gold as art. Religious cult manuscripts with plot clues in them, still worth a couple hundred to a collecter. Fine leather from exotic or magical beasts. An imperial pardon, signed but with the name left blank. The ruby signet ring of the crown prince. A cloth of gold tapestry proving the lineage of a claimant to the ducal estate. A musty old tome with the true name of a demon lord. An ancient spellbook with custom spells and an "old magic" spell (AD&D haste spell).

Yeah, the problem with the vendor trash mindset that comes from video games is that anything that isn't gold, gems, and magic gets ignored. Along with plot, hints, and everything but the next kill-loot-sell cycle.

That old deed that grants the bearer the a castle, noble title, and the right to tax a province? Obviously not valuable because it's not a magic scroll.

[Coidzor]

My players found a dragon and I was trying to put together a dragon hoard and it occured to me that while its true that a dragon hoard probably contains lots of coins and gems, sure... But also that some items on my ship's plunder table might not be so out of place in a dragon hoard either... So when they found the hoard, it included nearly 47 tons of sheep and cattle, which was quite a flavorful change of pace. Dragon's gotta eat, man...

You don't hoard sheep and cattle, you keep them as livestock. :smallconfused: Otherwise you get 47 tons of animal carcass that will rot unless you've got a chamber of gentle repose or a very nice magical freezer cave.

[darksolitaire]

OP, what level your party is?

[Psyren]

well if i were you i would start giving them tons of semi-useless magic stuff instead, one example i have seen a few times is a book that eats other books and adds them to itself without ever changing size, so giving them little magic knick-knacks might work and you can sell it off for the same amount of gold later on

This idea is great, because not only can you make sure they take everything along and potentially sell it, they might come up with a very creative use for that one random item you stuck in the loot as vendor-trash. For example, you might include a Rod of Wonder, Marvelous Pigments or pot of Sovereign Glue in a treasure chest with the intent that they cash it in, but several sessions later they whip one of these items out and do something extraordinary with it.

The best part is, they are keeping up with WBL either way - all the agency is in their hands.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In our campaign, I try to keep a decent hold on the PCs' wealth by level. There's a slight in-game problem...

Some of the loot are magical items, gold and gems. The rest are other items, mostly masterwork weapons and armor. The PCs have decided, for some odd reason, that only the aforementioned three types of loot (magic, gold and gems) are worth their time and they ignore the rest. It seems that they are actively disregarding one-third of the loot.

Since it's an in-game problem, I don't want to talk to them about in off-game. What do you think? What should I do?

I don't actually see a problem. Unless they're level 5 or lower that stuff isn't worth the effort required to drag it out of the dungeon. Its value density (gold per unit weight/volume) is just too low. If you're concerned about them falling below WBL just throw a few extra magical gewgaws or gems in the treasure.

I realize it's not quite the same thing but when I'm playing Skyrim I -never- bother looting the gear off of corpses because just snapping up cash, spell scrolls, gems, potions and the like produces more than adequate wealth for my characters without seriously encumbering them. Magic axes and shields are just too heavy to be worth the effort.

You're running into the same mindset with your players and I applaud them. I've had to deal with the type that thinks "if it's not nailed down or on fire, it's loot and I'm carrying a crowbar and a wand of quench." It gets old. Fast.

[nedz]

What level did you start the game at ?

At low levels this stuff is valuable, but from mid-level on they will start to discard it.

I have seen low level partied buy a wagon to carry their loot in — it doesn't last, but it's fun for a while.

At the end of the day though, it is a party decision. IMHO most parties miss about half the loot available anyway.

[JDL]

I for one make sure that I scrape every last copper out of an encounter. Even at level 14 my Cleric carries a portable hole that he dumps anything he can loot into, including mundane non-masterwork weapons. At low levels a donkey is a good investment at 8 gp to carry 150 lbs of your murder-hobo funds.

Ultimately it's their call. If that's how they want to play, let them. There's no rules against being below their WBL. Of course they may find it difficult to keep up with the difficulty curve, but that's their problem.

[Dr TPK]

OP, what level your party is?

6, 8 and 9.

[JeenLeen]

I'd recommend talking to them, telling them that such stuff is intended to help them with WBL, and figure out what to do from there.

A few options come to mind, from the least 'realistic' to the most:
1. hand-wave the encumbrance, or say that the players get it on the way out of the dungeon.
2. instead of writing down all the equipment, you as DM add it up beforehand and tell them the rough numbers. At the level you are at, averaging is okay. In a PF game I did recently, I'd say "between the gold and the equipment, you got 800 gold". If the module said x gold and x/# of PCs wasn't a clean number, I'd modify it so it was.
(This is more work for you, but your players might appreciate it, and it prevents the bookkeeping from taking up time gaming time.)
3. let them know that they are intended to have this as part of their wealth, but let them make the decision about whether it's worth it or not

Or, if you want to keep it all IC, have a scene where an experienced adventurer, who is passing through, is seen selling their junk. But that seems too forced and confusing to be appealing, and the PCs might go after it/him as a plot hook.

[Faily]

I was trying to put together a dragon hoard and it occured to me that while its true that a dragon hoard probably contains lots of coins and gems, sure... But also that some items on my ship's plunder table might not be so out of place in a dragon hoard either... So when they found the hoard, it included nearly 47 tons of sheep and cattle, which was quite a flavorful change of pace. Dragon's gotta eat, man...


When I made the lair of a Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon, I took great care with making it into a place a sophisticated creature would want to live. It was located in a hollow mountainside by the sea, which had underwater tunnels which he used to come and go. These tunnels would lead to a big cave which, due to a permanent illusion, look like a "typical fantasy dragon's hoard", with mountains of gold and a sleeping dragon on top. Another illusion hid the hole in the roof that led to the upper levels where the true lair was.
The true lair had a library, with many invaluable books, manuscripts, tomes and a collection of spell scrolls (even a spellbook). It had a forge which the dragon even had used from time to time (when you live so long, you need hobbies, ya know?), stacked with armors and weapons, some masterwork, some highly decorative, and a few of rare materials (adamantine, mithral, silver, cold iron), as well as some magical ones too. From there it had a music room/banquet hall, with all the walls decorated with priceless exquisite frescos, a dais for performers with a collection of masterwork instruments, dining tables and chairs of the highest quality with the finest set of dinner plates, cups, goblets, eating utensils... you name it. Lastly was the "master bedroom", which had an elegant bed made into the floor, with many gems and jewels scattered about (incase you need a midnight snack, as Dragons have been known to eat precious stones). The room also featured several chests and wardrobes, with a huge selection of high quality clothing fit to dress royalty, jewelry, accessories, rare perfumes, a hidden collection of assorted alcoholic drinks (preserved in magical containers), and locked chests with magic items that the dragon used from time to time himself (most of them being called to him with Drawmij's Instant Summons).

It was the fanciest dragon lair in the Empire. :smallbiggrin:

[Solaris]

Since it's an in-game problem, I don't want to talk to them about in off-game. What do you think? What should I do?

The game doesn't exist. Only you and the players exist. Therefore, there's no such thing as an in-game problem.

If it's something as meta as WBL issues, it's best to address it OOC just as you would if they were wandering off the rails and you weren't good enough at improvising to come up with a night's worth of gaming off the cuff. If the problem were more related to the characters' behavior and the game world in a non-meta way (such as treating the baron and his guards like crap), then the solution should be in-game as a consequence thereof. As it is, it's entirely reasonable and believable in-character that they wouldn't opt to scavenging every copper off every corpse (it's not terribly heroic, after all) and instead take back only the shiny stuff that's worth the effort of carrying it.

[Arbane]

That old deed that grants the bearer the a castle, noble title, and the right to tax a province? Obviously not valuable because it's not a magic scroll.

This actually happened in one game I was in. My group's Cleric was all set to start playing SimCity, but first we needed to clear out the undead infesting the area.... pity that game died, it was fun.

[VincentTakeda]

You don't hoard sheep and cattle, you keep them as livestock. :smallconfused: Otherwise you get 47 tons of animal carcass that will rot unless you've got a chamber of gentle repose or a very nice magical freezer cave.

Exactly! In this particular campaign I've officially blurred the lines... Livestock, when I deem thematically appropriate, does equal loot. It's a youngish dragon thats been roaming the countryside collecting cattle and sheep, showing an interest in exiting the 'i'm hungry go fly somewhere' mechanic... He's building his garden. How both intelligent and out of the ordinary for him. It gave the players the opportunity to experience exactly what the OP is talking about. Valuable treasure that the party may deem not worth the hassle of dragging back and selling. If the ship holds that much cargo, and the cargo will survive 2 days at sea to be sold in town, and yet the party chooses not to take it anyway... They're simply making a fluff choice to ignore what amounts to possibly several thousand platinum... Its treasure that in fact carries itself... But certain parties dont care for that kind of thing...

My group decided it was worth the effort, which is a nice neat new step for them.