Okay, I need clarification w/r/t Elf Dilettante from Races of the Wild.

[AnonymousPepper]

So in my 3.PF game, the elf Artificer took Elf Dilettante, whose text reads like so:

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all untrained skill checks. You can attempt untrained checks using skills that normally do not allow untrained use. If a skill doesn't allow skill checks (such as Speak Language), this feat has no effect.

My question is, does this apply to knowledge checks? More importantly, does it apply to ANY knowledge check?

For example, would it allow him, a person who's never even been to, and in fact is not even from the same plane of existence as, say, Andoran, in his life, to be able to roll a Knowledge (Local) (Andoran) check?

There is a way to do this, and it's called Bardic Knowledge, and it's a nigh-unboostable class feature, and it's explicitly general knowledge on everything. It just seems odd to me that he can use this to roll Knowledge Local on literally everything.

[Heliomance]

This is d20+Int+1. You're hardly going to be getting sky-high scores with that. Besides, Knowledge (Local) is horribly badly defined anyway. Unless you're playing in Faerun and using the region rules, it applies at all times to wherever "local" happens to be.

[AnonymousPepper]

I get that, but it's just the principle of the thing. Knowing about any place in the multiverse?

Plus, he's already rolling a d20+9. >_>

Which incidentally means he knows anything that would be considered common knowledge, aka a DC10, automatically, on a 1. ANYTHING.

I'm not gonna ban it, because we've been Rule of Funnying it in-game, but I was more just wondering... well, more something along the lines of "does this really say what I think it says?"

[Malak'ai]

I don't know if they changed it in PF, but in 3.5, unless you had (at least 1) ranks in the specific Knowledge skill ( in this case, Knowledge: Local), then you couldn't get a result better than what's already common knowledge to everyone (the same as aDC10 result) no matter what you rolled. So it doesn't really matter.
The player could have rolled a nat20 and have a buffed bonus +100, but unless they invested that one skill rank, all they can get by RAW is 10.

[Dread_Head]

I don't know if they changed it in PF, but in 3.5, unless you had (at least 1) ranks in the specific Knowledge skill ( in this case, Knowledge: Local), then you couldn't get a result better than what's already common knowledge to everyone (the same as aDC10 result) no matter what you rolled. So it doesn't really matter.
The player could have rolled a nat20 and have a buffed bonus +100, but unless they invested that one skill rank, all they can get by RAW is 10.

The Elf Dilettante feat quoted in the OP specifically lets you make untrained skill checks as if trained.


if the character has a +8 int modifier then I'm assuming at least 8th level. Is this really the most broken thing an artificer is doing at that level? It's not like they can't find the information out through spells etc. How is this different to a character putting 1 rank in each knowledge to be able to make the checks. Maybe this elf just read a lot of travel books and journals as a child.

[Chronos]

OK, so he's getting all the common knowledge about a region. That's the same knowledge he could get by stopping a random person on the street and asking "Hey, what's going on?". Heck, maybe he is doing that in downtime, and that's how he knows these things to begin with.

[Ashtagon]

Normally, you can't attempt a "trained only" skill at all if you have no ranks. That class feature lets you make the attempt.

Knowledge skills are listed as trained only. They have a restriction that you can't get a result higher than DC 10 when untrained, although the "can't attempt the check at all when untrained" rule doesn't actually apply to Knowledge checks.


Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all untrained skill checks.

So as long as the skill remains untrained, you get a +1 on it.


You can attempt untrained checks using skills that normally do not allow untrained use.

Since you could always use Knowledge skills even when untrained, this sentence is n/a. This sentence does not address the restriction on getting results above DC 10 while untrained.


If a skill doesn't allow skill checks (such as Speak Language), this feat has no effect.

This sentence is a big "n/a" for Knowledge skills.

Overall: You get to roll 1d20 + 1 + Intelligence bonus, with results capped at 10. Depending on whether your GM let's you take 10 on an untrained skill (I wouldn't, but there's no raw against it), that means you automatically know all common knowledge about every place ever.

[Vortenger]

Yes, it works. No, its not that bad. Compare this to a Bardic Knack bard with the Jack of All Trades feat. Similar effect, the bard gets half its level as virtual ranks in every skill and is considered trained in all skills. They can use their own ranks if they prefer, but imagine a bard with 8 trained skills and every other skill with full cross-class ranks. Or any cleric using 2 2nd level spells for +25-35 to any one skill check whenever they feel like it, for that matter. What your player is doing is baby town frolics by comparison. I wouldn't sweat it. Aren't Artificers supposed to be skill monkeys, after all?

edit: the wording of the feat in question strongly looks like the character treats the knowledge skill as though trained. That said, there is a bit of ambiguity there, so the OP can use that wording to reign in his player if he feels it necessary.

[AnonymousPepper]

Like I said, I'm not complaining that it's OP, and I'm not PLANNING on nerfing it, I was just wondering if it really did allow that.

[Malak'ai]

The Elf Dilettante feat quoted in the OP specifically lets you make untrained skill checks as if trained.


if the character has a +8 int modifier then I'm assuming at least 8th level. Is this really the most broken thing an artificer is doing at that level? It's not like they can't find the information out through spells etc. How is this different to a character putting 1 rank in each knowledge to be able to make the checks. Maybe this elf just read a lot of travel books and journals as a child.

No, it does allow you to "make untrained skill checks as if trained", it allows you to make a check at, as others have said, 1d20 + (primary skill stat) + 1. For Knowledge skills this still means you can only get a max of DC10.

[Fax Celestis]

No, it does allow you to "make untrained skill checks as if trained", it allows you to make a check at, as others have said, 1d20 + (primary skill stat) + 1. For Knowledge skills this still means you can only get a max of DC10.

Correct.


Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

The feat only lets you make checks as if you were trained in the case of being denied from attempting if you're untrained (as indicated by the general skill rules:

Trained Only
If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If it is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).).

OP: Consider it thusly: the feat is basically giving him 10 free skill ranks that he can only put into individual Knowledge skills. Compare to Open Minded:

Open Minded [General]
You are naturally able to reroute your memory, mind, and skill expertise.

Benefit
You immediately gain an extra 5 skill points. You spend these skill points as normal. If you spend them on a cross-class skills they count as ½ ranks. You cannot exceed the normal maximum ranks for your level in any skill.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you immediately gain another 5 skill points.

Open Minded is more flexible and allows spending all those points on one skill, whereas Elf Dilettante gives you more points but severely limits how you can spend them.

[Vortenger]

Huh, upon further inspection, it seems the others are correct. Oops.

[Chronos]

And a DC 11 knowledge check is a check that you can't make untrained, so this feat lets you make it.

[Fax Celestis]

Not really. The feat says "you can make the check untrained as if you were trained". The skill says "if you have no ranks, you can't beat a 10." They work across each other.

[Troacctid]

An untrained Knowledge check is not a Knowledge check, it's an Intelligence check. Knowledge is trained-only.

[Heliomance]

Not really. The feat says "you can make the check untrained as if you were trained". The skill says "if you have no ranks, you can't beat a 10." They work across each other.

Except that's not the wording of the feat. If that's how the feat was worded then it would work fine, but it isn't.

[AnonymousPepper]

I have to ask, wouldn't the specific trump the general anyway?

[Fax Celestis]

Except that's not the wording of the feat. If that's how the feat was worded then it would work fine, but it isn't.

Fine. "You can attempt untrained checks using skills that normally do not allow untrained use."

Knowledge allows untrained use with a maximum attainable result if you are not trained. The feat does not change that.

[Troacctid]

Fine. "You can attempt untrained checks using skills that normally do not allow untrained use."

Knowledge allows untrained use with a maximum attainable result if you are not trained. The feat does not change that.

Not so: you can make an untrained "Knowledge" check, but it's not a skill check, it's just an ability check. The individual Knowledge skills cannot be used untrained.


Many skills can be used only by someone who is trained in them. If you don’t have Spellcraft, for example, you just don’t know enough about magic even to attempt to identify a spell, regardless of your class, ability scores, or experience level. Skills that cannot be used untrained are indicated by a “No” in the Untrained column on Table 4–2: Skills.

(All the Knowledge skills are marked "No" on the table.)


Trained Only: If this notation is included in the skill name line, you must have at least 1 rank in the skill to use it. If it is omitted, the skill can be used untrained (with a rank of 0). If any special notes apply to trained or untrained use, they are covered in the Untrained section (see below).

(Knowledge includes the "Trained Only" notation.)

[Heliomance]

Fine. "You can attempt untrained checks using skills that normally do not allow untrained use."

Knowledge allows untrained use with a maximum attainable result if you are not trained. The feat does not change that.

Exactly. So even with this feat, you're limited to DC 10. If it was "you may make untrained checks as if you were trained" then you wouldn't be.

[Fax Celestis]

Not so: you can make an untrained "Knowledge" check, but it's not a skill check, it's just an ability check. The individual Knowledge skills cannot be used untrained.



(All the Knowledge skills are marked "No" on the table.)



(Knowledge includes the "Trained Only" notation.)

And it also includes the special Untrained section.


Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

The feat does not give you actual training. It merely allows you to make checks when you are untrained, a function which the Knowledge skills already have.