Dragon Cheese?

[maniacalmojo]

I have seen a few post about cheese revolving around the dragonblood subtype and i would like to know all the tricks and cheese associated with it.

[Uncle Pine]

If you are a dragon, you automatically qualify for PrCs, feats, etc. that have "dragonblood" as a prerequisite. Enjoy building a character with only PrCs levels, or doing things like taking Improved Dragon Wings at 1st level.

[Rebel7284]

Kobolds with the Dragonwraught feat count as dragons. Official 3.5 material has made some pretty silly assertions about dragons.

1. As mentioned before, they said that Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires dragon blood. Some people assume that means all other prerequisites are ignored. I personally disagree with this interpretation.

2. There is a statement somewhere that dragons past a certain age qualify for epic feats. Again, there is a chart mapping Kobold age categories to Dragon age categories, thus venerable Dragonwraught Kobolds can take epic feats without being level 21.

3. Dragon archetypes such as Loredrake and dragon psychoses are technically open to all dragons and give dramatic benefits.

4. Even without the extreme cheese above, Dragonwraught kobolds do not take penalties to physical stats as they age and thus can get +3 to all mental stats for the price of a feat. In some builds, this is amazing.

[Uncle Pine]

As we momentarily shifted from "dragonblood cheese" to general dragonwrought kobold cheese, I'll add that Great Wyrm dragonwrought kobolds automatically become Colossal when they gain 3 levels and Colossal+ 12 levels after that. They also get +3 to every mental ability score.

[Rebel7284]

I would like to also say that without Kobolds, the dragonblood subtype itself is nothing special. It qualifies the character for a couple of nice feats (Practical Metamagic) and some Alternate class features, but nothing cheesy as I recall.

[Extra Anchovies]

Regarding the title, dragons don't give milk so you can't have dragon cheese.


Kobolds with the Dragonwraught feat count as dragons. Official 3.5 material has made some pretty silly assertions about dragons.

1. As mentioned before, they said that Dragons automatically qualify for anything that requires dragon blood. Some people assume that means all other prerequisites are ignored. I personally disagree with this interpretation.

2. There is a statement somewhere that dragons past a certain age qualify for epic feats. Again, there is a chart mapping Kobold age categories to Dragon age categories, thus venerable Dragonwraught Kobolds can take epic feats without being level 21.

3. Dragon archetypes such as Loredrake and dragon psychoses are technically open to all dragons and give dramatic benefits.

4. Even without the extreme cheese above, Dragonwraught kobolds do not take penalties to physical stats as they age and thus can get +3 to all mental stats for the price of a feat. In some builds, this is amazing.

Regarding 3), I thought those were True Dragon-only. Odd.

Also, there are rules in the Epic Level Handbook for determining a dragon's size based on its age category. This lets you have Colossal+ Kobolds. (Credit goes to Uncle Pine for showing me this one)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Regarding the title, dragons don't give milk so you can't have dragon cheese.



Regarding 3), I thought those were True Dragon-only. Odd.

Also, there are rules in the Epic Level Handbook for determining a dragon's size based on its age category. This lets you have Colossal+ Kobolds. (Credit goes to Uncle Pine for showing me this one)

There was a -long-, god-awful, draw out debate some time ago about whether dragonwrought kobolds count as true dragons. No concensus was ever reached and, consequently, a portion of the folks on this and other forums consider DW kobolds to actually be true dragons and, thusly, that they qualify for the sovereign archetypes.

[Extra Anchovies]

There was a -long-, god-awful, draw out debate some time ago about whether dragonwrought kobolds count as true dragons. No concensus was ever reached and, consequently, a portion of the folks on this and other forums consider DW kobolds to actually be true dragons and, thusly, that they qualify for the sovereign archetypes.

No, I'm not trying to start that debate. My remark was Rebel's post implied that anything of the dragon type could nab a Sovereign Archetype if they wanted to, while I thought it was only for true dragons (regardless of whether or not DWKs qualify).

[Uncle Pine]

No, I'm not trying to start that debate. My remark was Rebel's post implied that anything of the dragon type could nab a Sovereign Archetype if they wanted to, while I thought it was only for true dragons (regardless of whether or not DWKs qualify).

The Sovereign Archetypes paragraph in Dragons of Eberron doesn't actually mention that you have to be a true dragon to take a sovereign archetype, so dragonwrought kobolds definitely qualify for those.
I don't remember if Dragon Magazine's psychosis mention it, though.

[Flickerdart]

Regarding the title, dragons don't give milk so you can't have dragon cheese.
Given that there's a dragon for any substance you could want, you could have a Cheese Dragon that breathes a 60ft cone of cheese.

[Seerow]

As we momentarily shifted from "dragonblood cheese" to general dragonwrought kobold cheese, I'll add that Great Wyrm dragonwrought kobolds automatically become Colossal when they gain 3 levels and Colossal+ 12 levels after that. They also get +3 to every mental ability score.

Curious about the source for this one.


I am now considering a dragonwrought kobold monk as a fun new character.

[Uncle Pine]

Curious about the source for this one.


I am now considering a dragonwrought kobold monk as a fun new character.

Epic Level Handbook, or the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm).

[LoyalPaladin]

Regarding the title, dragons don't give milk so you can't have dragon cheese.
I was disappointed to find out that this was not the actual topic.

[Kazyan]

Regarding the title, dragons don't give milk so you can't have dragon cheese.

I give it 24 hours before someone solves this problem with Mindrape.

[Werephilosopher]

The Sovereign Archetypes paragraph in Dragons of Eberron doesn't actually mention that you have to be a true dragon to take a sovereign archetype, so dragonwrought kobolds definitely qualify for those.
I don't remember if Dragon Magazine's psychosis mention it, though.

I was also confused by this, because the Sovereign Archetype description mentions true dragons, but looking back this is indeed correct.

Dragon psychoses do require being a true dragon though, each template says so explicitly.

[Jeff the Green]

I give it 24 hours before someone solves this problem with Mindrape.


Mindrape a metallic dragon to obey your commands.
Command it to use its alternate form to become a female sheep or goat (cows are too large).
Mindrape it into thinking it actually is a sheep or goat.
Milk it.
Add rennet (possibly obtained from another dragon you mindraped into becoming a calf).
Remove the whey.
Compress the curds.
Age.

[Extra Anchovies]

I was disappointed to find out that this was not the actual topic.

It is now.



Mindrape a metallic dragon to obey your commands.
Command it to use its alternate form to become a female sheep or goat (cows are too large).
Mindrape it into thinking it actually is a sheep or goat.
Milk it.
Add rennet (possibly obtained from another dragon you mindraped into becoming a calf).
Remove the whey.
Compress the curds.
Age.


Alternate form only lets them turn into humanoids. So it would have to be *ahem* exotic cheese.

[Ruethgar]

Alternate form only lets them turn into humanoids. So it would have to be *ahem* exotic cheese.

Make it an Arcane dragon and it can Alternate form into an animal and avoid that.

[Jeff the Green]

Alternate form only lets them turn into humanoids. So it would have to be *ahem* exotic cheese.

Nope. From the SRD entry:

A gold dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

So that would be Munster cheese? Or maybe we could try that *exotic* version, I think it would be Gouda.

[Jeff the Green]

So that would be Munster cheese? Or maybe we could try that *exotic* version, I think it would be Gouda.

Nah, both of those come from cow milk and a dragon can't become an adult cow. It'd be chèvres or manchego.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Nah, both of those come from cow milk and a dragon can't become an adult cow. It'd be chèvres or manchego.

I must be missing something, where's the funny in that?

[Jeff the Green]

I must be missing something, where's the funny in that?

In being so pedantic about something as ridiculous as mindraping a dragon into producing cheese. :smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

I must be missing something, where's the funny in that?

Those are goat and sheep cheese, respectively. Adult cows are Large and thus can't be emulated via Alternate Form.

[Zrak]

How are the strict vegetarians eating this cheese? I demand dragon cheese with microbial rennet.

[maniacalmojo]

(the post regarding actual cheese are funy)

But what about polymorph. I remember seeing things about your subtype affecting polymorph and alter self somehow but am unfamiliar with the ruling

[Jeff the Green]

How are the strict vegetarians eating this cheese? I demand dragon cheese with microbial rennet.

Nope. You want to be all ethical and stuff you have to suffer for it. Mwahahahaha!


But what about polymorph. I remember seeing things about your subtype affecting polymorph and alter self somehow but am unfamiliar with the ruling

Polymorph changes your type. Alter self doesn't, but mostly because you can't change into something that isn't your type anyway.

[Zrak]

I was thinking it would be a fun addition to the "optimization" challenge of making cheese out of a dragon, but it's trivially easy if the dragon itself doesn't have to be turned into the vegetable rennet, since the dragon could just grow the mold or figs or whatever.

[Jeff the Green]

I was thinking it would be a fun addition to the "optimization" challenge of making cheese out of a dragon, but it's trivially easy if the dragon itself doesn't have to be turned into the vegetable rennet, since the dragon could just grow the mold or figs or whatever.

Ah. Well, as rennet is an enzyme it doesn't matter if it later disappears, so polymorph any object the dragon into rennet. +5 same kingdom and +2 lower intelligence = 1 week, more than enough time to curdle the milk.

[Extra Anchovies]

Polymorph changes your type. Alter self doesn't, but mostly because you can't change into something that isn't your type anyway.

Indeed. Alter Self is gold for DWKs.


Ah. Well, as rennet is an enzyme it doesn't matter if it later disappears, so polymorph any object the dragon into rennet. +5 same kingdom and +2 lower intelligence = 1 week, more than enough time to curdle the milk.


one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level

That's... That's a lot of rennet.

[Zrak]

I hadn't really thought about duration not being an issue.

Although, I also hadn't thought about using acids as a curdling agent, as in ricotta and paneer. Presumably, properly diluted acidic breath would work, here. Since this part of the process also requires heat, we can use a fire-breathing dragon (potentially our dragon-sheep, returned to its original form after milking and now convinced it is a gas stove) to create the heat over which we will curdle the milk in the acid of a second dragon.