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BRC
2014-12-10, 01:05 PM
So, I had a somewhat frustrating session last night, with almost the whole time being taken by a rather frustrating character introduction.


Let me start by saying that I have nothing against the player in question. He's a great guy, and might be a great player (Don't know, have not played with him outside this one session). He just took a direction with the character that made it very difficult to introduce them to the group.

For context, we're going through HoTDQ, what you need to know is that the party has gone through considerable efforts to remain incognito while hiding from the powerful cult whose agents we are following. The new character, a Gnome Wizard, is replacing a PC (Gnome warlock) who we've been running as a mostly-passive NPC since his player moved away.
We were killing time while the new player finished up his character sheet by hanging out in a museum dedicated to the characters from a previous campaign the DM (and some of the players) were in. Afterwards, the new player walks up to us in the street, and basically says "I know who you are".

Okay, considering we're paranoid, heavily armed, vaguely-heroic types, that's a risky move, but not the worst one.

The problems start after that.
I think the player was trying to make their character an engimatic spymaster type. They answered all our questions with vague proclamations about "We have mutual enemies". Nothing to make us trust them.

And then they lied.

after about fifteen minutes of pressuring them for a straight answer about how they recognized us, they claimed that they were a friend of the recently departed PC, who had told them about us. A quick sending spell to the character in question confirmed that this was not the case.

So now, in-character, we're on guard.This gnome knows things we've been trying to keep secret, they lied to us, they claim to be friendly but are clearly hiding things.

The rest of the session is basically spent trying to pull teeth from this new character to get a reason to trust them. Eventually we get the story: They used to work for, and have contacts in, the Cult. The Cult is on to us, which is how they recognized us (And now we know to change our distinguishing features),the Cult betrayed them and killed their family.

But this was after three real time hours of questions met with vague, "I know more than you" answers. Eventually it reached a point where the Player was honestly trying, but had dug themselves so-deep in-character that they were not sure what to say.

So the lesson here is, just because you're a PC, don't expect the rest of the party to instantly trust and accept you without good reason.



Anybody else have stories of frustrating, annoying, or just poorly handled character introductions?

Madfellow
2014-12-10, 02:04 PM
Myself, I'm a big fan of the "You seem trustworthy," trope. Everyone at the table knows what's going on, so let your characters break character for just a minute to move things along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIaIdv79Xz4

BWR
2014-12-10, 03:30 PM
Myself, I'm a big fan of the "You seem trustworthy," trope. Everyone at the table knows what's going on, so let your characters break character for just a minute to move things along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIaIdv79Xz4

That works as long as the PC doesn't mess up by making too many mistakes like the OP. At some point there isn't really anything you can do to salvage an IC situation without hitting the reboot button or passing it off as a bad joke.
I've had players like this - they have their own logic and what they do makes sense to them even if it doesn't make sense to anyone else. You can either just punish them by having their weirdness have (what is to you and everyone else) sensible consequences or you can just make creative interpretations of their action and give some odd consequences and let the game progress smoothly without making them feel like idiots all the time.
The best thing to do when a player makes an odd choice like this is to just point out OOC what the likely consequences of the action will be and ask if they really want to do that. Sure you risk spoonfeeding them the correct answer but pointing out big obvious blunders in minor situations makes for a smoother more enjoyable game than getting stuck over minor issues like PC introduction.

As for bad character introductions, in a L5R Gozoku campaign one of the PCs died and the player wants to bring in a new character from the same clan - which is known to the PCs for being a hotbed of traitors and one of the principle parties behind the imprisonment of the Emperor and manipulating his heirs to their advantage. Now the PCs know that not all members of said clan are traitors since the dead PC was also of the clan, but they have no way of knowing that this particular one is trustworthy and they can't risk the lives and freedom of the two imperial heirs they are protecting on the off chance that this new guy is ok. It is a headache for the GM to handle but we'll probably handwave it away by "someone else trustworthy vouches for you" despite there being very good in universe reasons this wouldn't be possible.

Calen
2014-12-10, 03:36 PM
The most annoying character introduction I have seen was at the start of a campaign. The DM basically said you are all in jail. OK no big deal. But then the DM basically hands out all the players "known" backstories as a monologue. I would have much rather had the chance for the players to talk to the other prisoners to get the stories.

Jay R
2014-12-10, 03:52 PM
I was the frustrated GM in a similar situation, in a game of Flashing Blades (roleplaying in Paris in the time of the musketeers). I was introducing a new PC, so I arranged that the group was trying to find a contact in the secret organization. Both the original party and the new PC had signs and countersigns. They were supposed to meet in a tavern.

The new PC started by trying to pick the pocket of a wealthy-looking gentleman, who, as it happened, was a PC. He got caught, they fought, and they chased him out of the tavern. Then they tried to make their contact - whjom they had just run off.

Every time the new PC tried to get back into the tavern so he could meet up with them, the group threw him out - through the window, and then went back to annoying the other patrons and trying to find their contact, whom they had just defenestrated.

They eventually annoyed one drunk man enough that they got into a duel, which their guy lost. (They were convinced he could beat any drunk fencer. Yes, the guy was drunk. He was also Athos.)

Only after Athos had wounded their best fencer, and still wouldn't respond to their code words, was the would-be pickpocket able to sneak up and give the countersign without being attacked.

DrBurr
2014-12-10, 04:03 PM
I call this Friday Night, I run an open game for a G-Mod Server I administrate. Every time someone is added or rolls a new character they pull stuff like this. I've seen countless characters just walk up say hi and suddenly they're all best friends. I've seen characters spend the night stalking the established PCs and then seem puzzled when they're characters aren't trusted and I've seen people show up and immediately try and kill another Player or a friendly NPC.

This isn't helped by the fact that none of them can stay alive longer than a month. Eventually I just roped some of my Saturday players to manage the group to prevent constant character death and introduction.

ClockShock
2014-12-10, 04:05 PM
How familiar was the player with the style of game and the situation/personality of the other PCs? I'm guessing not very as this was his first session. It sounds like everyone else was expecting him to be totally clued up on the situation and seamlessly step into their expectations of what their newest party member would be, which seems unreasonable if you ask me.

More should have been done OOC to ensure the players (new and old) understood how the new character was going to enter the party.

(Perhaps it's lost in the telling, but that sending spell to the departed PC/NPC seems really cheap. Poor guy could have easily been trying to latch onto something, anything, to ease the transition, and everyone else basically said "No. You're not allowed to know that character. Now we hate you.")

BRC
2014-12-10, 04:14 PM
How familiar was the player with the style of game and the situation/personality of the other PCs? I'm guessing not very as this was his first session. It sounds like everyone else was expecting him to be totally clued up on the situation and seamlessly step into their expectations of what their newest party member would be, which seems unreasonable if you ask me.

More should have been done OOC to ensure the players (new and old) understood how the new character was going to enter the party.

(Perhaps it's lost in the telling, but that sending spell to the departed PC/NPC seems really cheap. Poor guy could have easily been trying to latch onto something, anything, to ease the transition, and everyone else basically said "No. You're not allowed to know that character. Now we hate you.")

New player was a friend of DM and most of the group. I don't know how much the DM had told them about the group.

And, this wasn't a question of us saying "No, you don't know this other person". The DM was the one roleplaying the Former PC in question, and he and the new player had presumably talked about his character before. Had he wanted to, he could probably have established himself as a contact of the departed PC while he and the DM were building his character. It was the DM who had the Former PC/NPC answer "No, I've never heard of this guy before".

ClockShock
2014-12-10, 04:22 PM
New player was a friend of DM and most of the group. I don't know how much the DM had told them about the group.

And, this wasn't a question of us saying "No, you don't know this other person". The DM was the one roleplaying the Former PC in question, and he and the new player had presumably talked about his character before. Had he wanted to, he could probably have established himself as a contact of the departed PC while he and the DM were building his character. It was the DM who had the Former PC/NPC answer "No, I've never heard of this guy before".

I'm not familiar with the specifics, of course, but it sounds like there just needed to be a little more planning.

DM could have solved it before it got out of hand, but chose not to :smallfrown:

gom jabbarwocky
2014-12-10, 05:04 PM
The only thing I have to add to this conversations is that as a result of many games starting in a bar or the like, most of my PCs have a reputation for being alcoholics. I figure if my PC is in a bar, what do people do in bars? They drink. So that's what most of my characters are doing when they are introduced. Not drinking to excess or anything, just doing what people do in bars. For some reason, other people who did not come to the same conclusions I did found this odd, and drinking a lot becomes one of the character's defining attributes.

Lord Torath
2014-12-10, 05:33 PM
While on an urgent mission to retrieve a vital artifact, a new player introduced his character by having him stumble, stinking to the high heavens and drunk, into our camp. All in favor of telling this obviously capable and trustworthy soul our secret mission? :smallsigh: Yeah, I really wanted to tell the group to make him comfortable, then move our camp before he could wake up.

Seto
2014-12-10, 05:39 PM
From a first-time player who hadn't quite grasped the concept of roleplaying yet :

"My character walks up to you :
- Hey, can I join you guys ?
- Hum... Who are you ? And why do you want to "join us" ? And in doing what ?
- Uh, well, you look strong."

Galen
2014-12-10, 05:44 PM
Sigh ... some people tend to think being difficult and and haughty constitutes good roleplaying. I hope that player won't make that mistake again.

Mikeavelli
2014-12-10, 05:46 PM
Myself, I'm a big fan of the "You seem trustworthy," trope. Everyone at the table knows what's going on, so let your characters break character for just a minute to move things along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIaIdv79Xz4

This is the best way to perform introductions, especially with players that are somewhat new to role-playing.

I've seen some amazing introductions and role-playing dynamics that broke from this mold, but they've always happened when the entire group is very experienced, and everyone is on board with what's happening.

mephnick
2014-12-10, 05:52 PM
From a first-time player who hadn't quite grasped the concept of roleplaying yet :

"My character walks up to you :
- Hey, can I join you guys ?
- Hum... Who are you ? And why do you want to "join us" ? And in doing what ?
- Uh, well, you look strong."

Perfectly acceptable.

In fact, anything more complex generally comes off as pretentious and tedious.

It's a game, get it going.

Frenth Alunril
2014-12-10, 07:02 PM
I have seen this twice, in one case a character didn't answer any questions and just tagged along. In the other case, the character actually came across as delusional and mentally unsound.
After both of those experiences, kicking one player, the other leaving as fallout, the party has agreed to rp only with characters that aren't "brooding dark mysteries."

And now I have to explain why there is a temple good Drow in the area...

Solaris
2014-12-10, 07:46 PM
Perfectly acceptable.

In fact, anything more complex generally comes off as pretentious and tedious.

It's a game, get it going.

Arguably more realistic, too, judging by how often I've seen the same sort of thing happen in MMOs and the like.

Not terribly applicable to this situation, though, given the secretive nature of everything. I'd say the fault lies with the 'enigmatic' spymaster trying too hard and the GM failing to throw them a bone with the sending. That's... that's really, really bad on the GM's part.

Jay R
2014-12-10, 08:10 PM
Action is a much more effective way to get them together than talk is. If you all here the same scream, or if the main party is set upon by gnolls as the new PC is walking by, there is no problem getting together.

In a starting Champions game, I once used the following:

GM (to player 1): While scanning the emergency networks, you hear about a building on fire.

GM (to player 2): As you sit down to enjoy your coffee at the local Starbucks, you hear screams outside.

GM (to player 3): You see black smoke rising a couple of blocks away.

GM (to player 4): You notice that it seems to be getting very warm in here.

icefractal
2014-12-10, 08:13 PM
I don't really like playing out "You seem trustworthy" in character; it feels like putting a napkin in your sandwich and eating it because they're both on the table.

If it's really an OOC thing, just keep it third person, don't even pretend it's IC:
"Trogdor introduces himself to you and after some discussion joins forces with you. Moving on ..."

Which is fine in most campaigns.

Averis Vol
2014-12-10, 08:56 PM
I had one player who tried to play himself off as a "master swordsman". Normally, I don't care. yea, he was only like level 4, but whatever, i'm all for PC's with goals.

I am not all about how he went about presenting himself though.

Long story short, he stalked the party, sitting back while they got beat on, and once they beat all the thugs that had assaulted them, he came out and introduced himself, challenged them to a fight, claiming he was a master. Normally, this would have been laughable, but the party (a rogue, paladin and sorcerer) had a collective 20 hp left. So he, being a warblade, traipses in before they agree to the fight, and steel winds the the rogue and sorc into the negatives, takes one hit from the S&B paladin and drops him too. Hee barely stabilises them, and basically says "I'm your leader now, you answer to me," and tried to claim the leader position.

The party went along, and when he slept that night, the rogue and sorcerer brutally murdered him, like, color spray against his helpless status and just let the rogue go murder happy.

jedipotter
2014-12-10, 09:10 PM
I avoid this type of stuff most of the time by just saying ''you are all playing together, so deal with it''.

The OP gives a classic example of what I want to avoid: Wasting Time.

The Grue
2014-12-10, 09:22 PM
In an Eclipse Phase game I recently ran, I took steps to avert this pitfall by having each player come up with a call-and-response known only to their Firewall handler, and then giving every player one other person's codephrase.

So the first time everybody meets, there's a great exchange of non-sequitors that would make Maxwell Smart proud. I think one of them involved ordering drinks.

Mr Beer
2014-12-10, 09:39 PM
Hee barely stabilises them, and basically says "I'm your leader now, you answer to me," and tried to claim the leader position.

The party went along, and when he slept that night, the rogue and sorcerer brutally murdered him, like, color spray against his helpless status and just let the rogue go murder happy.

LOL, of course. What did he think would happen?

Jay R
2014-12-10, 09:55 PM
What group of PCs ever seemed trustworthy?

Jay R
2014-12-10, 09:57 PM
The only thing I have to add to this conversations is that as a result of many games starting in a bar or the like, most of my PCs have a reputation for being alcoholics. I figure if my PC is in a bar, what do people do in bars? They drink.

In a medieval tavern, they are equally likely to eat a meal or rent rooms for the night to sleep.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-12-10, 10:13 PM
In a medieval tavern, they are equally likely to eat a meal or rent rooms for the night to sleep.

Or set the place on fire. PC's have an unfortunate tendency to set things on fire.

A lot.

Whether they mean to or not.

Solaris
2014-12-10, 11:20 PM
LOL, of course. What did he think would happen?

I'd call that one natural selection.

Zrak
2014-12-10, 11:43 PM
I specifically avoid this by trying to always play characters who will basically go along with it no-matter what. Sometimes it's a barbarian who's easily impressed by meaningless, enigmatic prattle and thinks this new guy is super cool; sometimes it's a pompous aristocrat who's pretty sure this guy is his servant, he's not really paying attention and he doesn't really care; sometimes it's a paranoid wizard who doesn't believe the guy for a second but opts to keep him close to observe the "spy" and learn what They are planning. PCs and even NPCs the party is supposed to let tag along often just get such bad introductions that I feel like a reason to just roll with it is one of the most integral aspects of any character's backstory.

Mr Beer
2014-12-10, 11:56 PM
I'd call that one natural selection.

I mean most D&D characters are essentially remorseless professional spree-killers so it seems like an odd decision to violently humiliate them and then mere hours later, trustingly go to sleep in their company.

Solaris
2014-12-11, 10:24 AM
I mean most D&D characters are essentially remorseless professional spree-killers so it seems like an odd decision to violently humiliate them and then mere hours later, trustingly go to sleep in their company.

Hence, natural selection. Ol' boy was quite literally too stupid to live.

Seto
2014-12-11, 12:14 PM
Perfectly acceptable.

In fact, anything more complex generally comes off as pretentious and tedious.

It's a game, get it going.

I strongly disagree. Sure, there's no need to spend an hour talking about your character and being all mysterious, or even raising difficulties about joining the group. But having, I don't know, a reason for doing what you do is the very basis of roleplaying. An introduction such as "you look strong, I'll come with you" may be fine for games focused on dungeon-crawling that basically work like video-games or MMORPG. But for games with even the slightest emphasis on roleplay (this is the kind of games I'm interested in taking part in), players and DM should try to tell cooperatively a nice story. And the difference between "I kill things and I'm powerful, you kill things and you're powerful, let's go kill powerful things, random stranger" and "joining in your quest gives me something I want (revenge, money, security, whatever), what do you say I help you so we both win", makes the difference between a shoot'em up and a story.

I'll add that I generally insist on the characters trusting each other and genuinely working together, because something like presented in the OP is not good roleplaying. It's clumsy and constraining characterization that gets in the way of the story. It's the players' job to find reasons for their characters to work together. If they don't have reasons to and therefore not work together, it's poor roleplaying. If they don't have reasons to and still randomly work together, that's no roleplaying at all. (If I had to choose between those two, I'd choose the latter because it can still be fun, whereas the former is annoying and frustrating for everyone. But thankfully I don't have to choose).

Guran
2014-12-11, 12:49 PM
A long time ago our party got into an encounter with wild animals. I believe they were big wolves of some kind. Everything that could go wrong went wrong and one of the characters got dragged of and was eaten. Poor guy... The player decided to create a new character, while our characters were recuperating around a campfire. Some time later the guy whose character met a horrible end rejoins with a druid. His new character finds our camp and decides to turn into a wolf and inspect the campsite. He starts circling around our camp, getting cloder every minute and is eventually spotted. We just lost a friend and companion that has been traveling with us for months to a pack of hungry wolves and now there is one approaching our camp. So we get our weapons ready and attack. Luckily he turns back to his human form and starts blabbering excuses and other gibberish. Eventually he claims to be a simple lonely traveler on his way to some city. It was by far the worst introduction I had ever seen.

lytokk
2014-12-11, 12:56 PM
I think its part of the DM's job to provide good situations for new characters to be introduced. The DM should know the party, and know the best way to introduce a new character to the party. My personal favorite time to do it is in the middle of an encounter, esp if above ground (not currently in a dungeon). Two rounds into the encounter, new guy bursts out of the bushes in the forest and begins attacking the (whatevers attacking the party). Small conversation, new guy has been tracking the whatever it is for days to retrieve something it took or avenge whatever wrongdoing. New guy is going to be travelling in the same direction as the party. End of introduction. At that point the new guy has to convince the party that he's worth letting in on the grander plot. Its a blanket situation and just works well 90% of the time.

Sith_Happens
2014-12-11, 04:39 PM
I don't really like playing out "You seem trustworthy" in character; it feels like putting a napkin in your sandwich and eating it because they're both on the table.

I'm not a fan of it either, but make sure to come up with a quick way of ameliorating my character's objections should the rest of the party want to do it that way. Two examples (both D&D 3.5):

1. Playing a very mild-mannered Wizard in a larger party, one of the other players who'd tired of her old character is ready to introduce her new one, an eccentric CN Druid with a small army of rebuked chickens. The party meets said Druid as she's fleeing from the smoking remains of a butcher shop she'd just destroyed to save a chicken she saw on the chopping block. Knowing the player and DM and therefore figuring that something like that might happen, I made sure I was in my room at the time summoning the familiar that I'd just gained the ability to have after retraining out of an ACF. Upon regrouping with the rest of the party that evening, I expressed some minor confusion at the presence of a new member but decided (in-character) that I certainly did not want to know how that happened, given that the mean sanity of the party was only slightly above the Druid's to start with.

2. In one of the campaigns I'm currently playing in, a would-be new PC runs into the rest of us at a crossroads and says that he'd heard about some of our exploits in the area and wants to get in on the action. I, keeping in mind that we'd recently had an NPC follower turn out to be a Changeling spy working for the BBEG, insist that the newcomer submit to Detect Evil while unaffected by any spells or magic items. One negative result later and that's that.

Jay R
2014-12-11, 11:51 PM
The easiest solution really is for the DM to have something worth a bunch of experience points attack one PC. Everyone else will jump in, and then you're together, like D'Artagnan and the three musketeers.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2014-12-12, 12:34 AM
Myself, I'm a big fan of the "You seem trustworthy," trope. Everyone at the table knows what's going on, so let your characters break character for just a minute to move things along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIaIdv79Xz4This very trope was used against a party of mine once. We were playing as a cult of Erythnul that responded to persecution with well-planned guerilla strikes where we burned down churches and butchered/kidnapped/sacrificed everyone involved. The party steamrolled most encounters, even the ones where we were supposed to be in over our heads (due to planning and just plain big numbers), until the DM recruited a mutual friend to join the game.

His entrance was indeed frustrating, if only in hindsight. He had the flimsiest, most full-of-holes story about how he found our hidden church, but he had a glowing "PC" sign hovering over him, so we didn't check up on anything (though we had the means) and took it all on faith. Afterwards the enemy started countering all of our planned attacks, as if they were tipped off. We just assumed it was some plot contrivance on the DM's part... until the entire city eventually showed up at our doorstep and the new "PC" was nowhere to be found.

So yeah, it can go too far in the other direction as well. That was one of my favorite campaigns but also the one that made me feel the dumbest.

Garimeth
2014-12-12, 10:24 AM
I was the frustrated GM in a similar situation, in a game of Flashing Blades (roleplaying in Paris in the time of the musketeers). I was introducing a new PC, so I arranged that the group was trying to find a contact in the secret organization. Both the original party and the new PC had signs and countersigns. They were supposed to meet in a tavern.

The new PC started by trying to pick the pocket of a wealthy-looking gentleman, who, as it happened, was a PC. He got caught, they fought, and they chased him out of the tavern. Then they tried to make their contact - whjom they had just run off.

Every time the new PC tried to get back into the tavern so he could meet up with them, the group threw him out - through the window, and then went back to annoying the other patrons and trying to find their contact, whom they had just defenestrated.

They eventually annoyed one drunk man enough that they got into a duel, which their guy lost. (They were convinced he could beat any drunk fencer. Yes, the guy was drunk. He was also Athos.)

Only after Athos had wounded their best fencer, and still wouldn't respond to their code words, was the would-be pickpocket able to sneak up and give the countersign without being attacked.

I'm not going to lie, everytime this story comes up it cracks me up. I am going to have to check out flashing blades sometime.

Jay R
2014-12-12, 02:19 PM
I'm not going to lie, everytime this story comes up it cracks me up. I am going to have to check out flashing blades sometime.

Thank you. It's a great setting wrapped around a reasonable rules-light game.

Themrys
2014-12-12, 05:34 PM
Actually, the "trust some stranger without reason" works just fine if you just agree to do some easy-seeming mission together, like guarding item X on the way from A to B. No need for convoluted stories. That is how my group usually handles it. Then, after surviving the first near-death experience together, disbelief can be suspended in most cases. (The key to this is, of course, forming groups that work well together)

icefractal
2014-12-12, 06:17 PM
This very trope was used against a party of mine once. ...I feel like using metagame tropes against the PCs like that is playing with fire. Sure, it's great for surprising them, but is it great enough to justify the fact that new character intros will probably take the whole session from now on? :smallamused:

Jay R
2014-12-12, 09:12 PM
The problem with "you seem trustworthy" is that most PCs don't. They're out to kill people and take their stuff.

AMFV
2014-12-12, 09:27 PM
The problem with "you seem trustworthy" is that most PCs don't. They're out to kill people and take their stuff.

This is actually incorrect. PCs generally are not out to kill people and take their stuff, but rather searching for stuff that's just laying about in dangerous locations. Treasure hunters as opposed to highwaymen. Generally those locations are occupied by creatures who attack them on sight, which in turn allows for them to respond in kind. I think that the "Murder-Hobo" is greatly exaggerated, at least in my experience.

The Grue
2014-12-12, 09:45 PM
This is actually incorrect.


I think that...


...in my experience.

Mate, pick one. Are you stating your opinion, or making a factual claim?

Jay R
2014-12-12, 10:00 PM
This is actually incorrect. PCs generally are not out to kill people and take their stuff, but rather searching for stuff that's just laying about in dangerous locations. Treasure hunters as opposed to highwaymen. Generally those locations are occupied by creatures who attack them on sight, which in turn allows for them to respond in kind. I think that the "Murder-Hobo" is greatly exaggerated, at least in my experience.

Yes, I'm exaggerating for comic effect. It still makes more sense to me to say, "You seem completely untrustworthy, and a potential threat to everybody except your own team. Therefore I would like to be part of your team."

AMFV
2014-12-12, 10:11 PM
Mate, pick one. Are you stating your opinion, or making a factual claim?

Clearly, you are unfamiliar with the part of humor that involves playing the straight man. It's a thankless role, but a necessary one, also dry with is more my style. I would recommend rereading with that in mind.

Solaris
2014-12-13, 01:01 AM
The problem with "you seem trustworthy" is that most PCs don't. They're out to kill people and take their stuff.

Counterpoint: Most PCs are bonkers, so other murderhobos seem perfectly sane while the "normal" people seem nuts.

Pex
2014-12-13, 01:27 AM
These Drama Queens who like to be all Mysterious and Secretive and Holier Than Thou just really get on my nerves. You're there to play a game. Why make things so difficult? Just play already.

When I joined my previous group I brought in a cleric into a small party of a rogue and fighter. The rogue had a mystery to solve involving his evil sister. He asked for my help. I agreed. We got on with the adventure. Campaign plot happens. We become best pals, with the fighter too of course. A couple of weeks later a new player joins the group. She brings in a sorcerer. Refuses to introduce herself. Won't tell us her name. Chastises me for being so loose with giving information. Remains secretive. She's one of "those" players. I've long since learned I don't need to accept it. I literally shun her, and I do mean "literally". The rogue, fighter, and myself continue to be pals. She leaves the group two weeks later. No one is sorry she left. To this day the rogue and fighter players don't even remember her. :smallbiggrin:

Gavran
2014-12-13, 04:10 AM
What a... grand tale of inviting someone to hang out with you and then making it so unpleasant for them that they leave.

I don't know, maybe it's because my non-PbP experiences are only with people who are already my friends but even in a newly forming PbP I feel bad for the people who want to play and can't... I just don't see how that's a victory.

Mr Beer
2014-12-13, 05:42 AM
I don't voluntarily associate with obnoxious douches in my limited lesiure time, so I'm with Pex on this one.

ElenionAncalima
2014-12-13, 10:34 AM
Ugh...this happened really badly in a Mutants and Masterminds game I was in.

A new player was introduced to us in enemy territory. However, the GM didn't make it clear that the person was the new player at first (the new guy would sometimes listen in on our sessions over Skype, so it wasn't weird for him to be on the call). My character secretly followed him for a bit, until we figure out he was a new character and we eased up a little. However, at this point we were already shoehorned into being cautious with him, based on how we were treating him as an NPC.

Then the problems started...his character, a mind controller with maxed out bluff, was the most evasive and suspicious PC I have ever encountered. Not only would he not tell us anything about himself and would lie obviously (using his high bluff so we couldn't react in game), he was also obsessed with finding out information about our characters. To do this he used mind control on every single party member. One of the other players, a sniper, figured it out in character and threatened him over it (his character actually had hatred of being mind controlled in his backstory). Of course, he couldn't convince the rest of us, in game, because of the new guy's obnoxious bluff score.

At that point, we took a little break and tried talking to the guy OOC. Essentially we told him, in as nice a way as possible, that he hadn't given us single reason to want to work with him and that he might want to try a different approach. His tried to argue that his flaw was he didn't know he had powers, so his character wasn't using mind control on purpose. He was pretty unapologetic, but we did convince him that he had to stop with constant bluff checks and mind control attempts, if he wanted us to accept him as a character. At this point, against our better judgement and in the name of party cohesion, we let him join. However, there remained in game tension between his character and the sniper.

...and then a few sessions later we find out that he secretly coordinating a trap with the GM that resulted in the death of a the sniper and another PC. The worst part was how indignant he got when he got caught...basically saying that we should understand why he would want the sniper dead, because he threatened him that one time and he had killed someone (a super villain who had killed a bunch of people and just murdered someone in front of him). He wouldn't even express any regret that another PC, who had never done anything to him, had also died in the trap. The whole campaign, pretty much fell apart at that point...

Thanks to that, I don't really like giving PCs a free trust pass, just because they are PCs.

Jay R
2014-12-13, 10:42 AM
I don't voluntarily associate with obnoxious douches in my limited lesiure time, so I'm with Pex on this one.

Of course, that was also the motivation for the woman playing the cleric to leave.

Sartharina
2014-12-13, 11:19 AM
Mate, pick one. Are you stating your opinion, or making a factual claim?It looks to me like he is stating an observation based on a lifetime of prior experience, with a qualifier recognizing that others do not have the same experiences he does.

RustyArmor
2014-12-13, 02:17 PM
Sometimes its just down right tricky for players to think of clever ways to mix into a party of paranoid murder-hobos whom travel city to city, which in my experiences tends to be most player types. Now if you have the types that do work for an organization, clan, etc or have family you can even say they are somehow related to such group, family, etc. But even this can prove fruitless with stubborn players. But all in all I would rather have a lame introduction into the group rather then the type that almost fight tooth and nail to delay and avoid the introduction. Which I have experienced far to often.

Pex
2014-12-13, 03:43 PM
I want to clarify I meant the sorcerer character was secretive, not telling us her name, being chastising, etc., and it was the character I was shunning. The information she chastised me about was I told her my character's name and she wouldn't give hers.

Solaris
2014-12-13, 10:10 PM
I want to clarify I meant the sorcerer character was secretive, not telling us her name, being chastising, etc., and it was the character I was shunning. The information she chastised me about was I told her my character's name and she wouldn't give hers.

Which is just... stupid. Even if you're from a culture that believes names have power, that's still stupid to pretend like you wouldn't have a public name or anything like that.

Mr Beer
2014-12-14, 05:57 AM
Of course, that was also the motivation for the woman playing the cleric to leave.

Sure, but I'm going by the story as told, on face value...someone turns up and is super awesome and mysterious to the point that they won't tell you anything and berates you for freely providing information, yeah OK...thanks for coming, but now please go away.

goto124
2014-12-14, 06:17 AM
Could anyone give examples of non-frustrating character introductions that make sense in the story, or are even woven into the story?

Khedrac
2014-12-14, 06:55 AM
Could anyone give examples of non-frustrating character introductions that make sense in the story, or are even woven into the story?

Once we were killing a bunch of demon-worshipping pirates (iirc) and we rescued a prisoner who asked if could join us to get his revenge on them...

JoshuaZ
2014-12-14, 10:32 AM
Could anyone give examples of non-frustrating character introductions that make sense in the story, or are even woven into the story?

Sure. In my last campaign, one of the PCs was a mage descended from an ancient bloodline and the rightful heir to the title of "magelord" (in setting a title given to certain noble titles that could only be passed on to the nearest mage in the family line) and she was trying to get back her ancestral home. The area where it was was on the outskirts of the main human empire, which was now an area full of various tribes of orcs as well as a few small human villages. One of the nastier orc tribes was using the castle that had been the ancestral home as a base of power and making life difficult for everyone else in the area. The PCs defeated that tribe and made allegiances with a nature worshipping orc tribe in the area at the same time. The new PC then came in as a ranger from the nature-tribe who had been ordered to assist the PCs. It worked pretty well.

However, at the same time, the player who was playing the new character was a player who had previously played a monk in the same setting.

But in general, this sort of thing isn't that hard to do when the DM works with the player in question.

Milodiah
2014-12-14, 07:01 PM
Could anyone give examples of non-frustrating character introductions that make sense in the story, or are even woven into the story?

You are playing Delta Green. Your PCs all work for Delta Green. You are a Delta Green agents. Delta Green's A-Cell tells you these people are also in Delta Green. Therefore, you go off and fight horrors from beyond time and space, because almost nobody in Delta Green has a reason to (deliberately) betray their comrades...backstabbing a party member takes away one of the precious few people who are holding the line against aforementioned horrors from beyond time and space.

Then again, with the right GM, a game of DG can have the personality of A-Cell almost intersect with the personality of Friend Computer.

"What could you tell us about this alien monster we're hunting?"
"...you're not cleared for that information."
"You send us here to kill it, and then don't tell us anything about it?"
"You have your orders. Don't call us again." *Click*


On second thought, this is an issue that seems to be a major occurrence only in games like D&D. Social-oriented RPGs like World of Darkness games typically have so much social framework in which your respective characters dwell. Werewolf packs, vampire societies, Hunter groups, etc. etc.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2014-12-15, 01:25 AM
I feel like using metagame tropes against the PCs like that is playing with fire. Sure, it's great for surprising them, but is it great enough to justify the fact that new character intros will probably take the whole session from now on? :smallamused:I don't think it pushed us to outright paranoia more than some happy middle ground where we deigned to use our magical information-finding powers to vet potential allies. I definitely wouldn't trust that player in any game, though, since his bluff is higher than my sense motive IRL.

CGNefarious
2014-12-16, 04:46 AM
After a dark, mysterious, back-stabbing, steal-from-all-the-other-PCs rogue that literally left our party to die with absolutely no way out (all for a pair of magical boots) on my first ever campaign and causing the death of my first character, I just don't play with that type of character anymore.

As for poor character introductions, I do have one.


So my group had just finished White Plume Mountain. My character lost an eye and a leg. Another lost an arm and another lost a leg. We barely managed to survive some of the encounters and because of this my character had some serious PTSD and trust issues going on. We were at an auction selling all of our loot from the expedition when a gargantuan undead dragon (by description. I'm still not sure what it actually was) attacked the gathering. Long story short, knowing we were out matched we left. All except our cleric, who decided he thought we could take the dragon. He didn't survive one round. So we left, taking a carriage as fast as we could.

Traveling down the road we come to a stop. A dwarven archer (the dead clerics new character) was standing our path. He asks us to take him to the auction (the one we can still see attacking the place behind us). We say no. He insists. Our monk gets out of the carriage and decides to physically move him out of our way. The archer releases a flurry of arrows into our monk. And all this time my sorcerer is holding on to Blackrazor who keeps compelling him to kill things.

Basically we all just had to go "This is going to go no where. Just get in the carriage and lets pretend like this never happened." It was a very poorly handled introduction on all our parts, so we just decided to pretend it went better. It is just a game after all.



As far as good character introductions go, I've had much more of those.


My current character is a young girl who was traveling with her sister. An incident occurred, people were killed, and we decided it was best if we split up for a while. While out on the road one day I met a kindly gnome traveler. My character asked to travel with him to the nearest city. It was cold and raining and I was just a little girl. He of course obliged. Unknown to my character was that he had recently received a rather vague bounty for two young girls to which I mostly fit the description. I was using him for safety, food, and shelter, while he was keeping me close in case I turned out to be that bounty (plus I think he actually is a nice guy and wouldn't leave a girl traveling the road by herself). That led to us traveling together and then we just kind of stay a group after that. I guess that kind of happens when you get involved in some massive devine plot that you barely understand.

Another of the members of our party was already a captive bounty of the gnome when the campaign started. Once he was turned in the makers of his bounty tried to re-neg on the payment and he just stuck with the group as well. Another we found half dead on the side of the road, and my character instantly wanted help him as he was the first person she had seen with red eyes (other than her and her sister). Another was a crafter who we met inside of a large temple. He her us talking to one of the gods (the gods have a large presence in this temple) about some ancient artifact and asked to accompany us to retrieve it. The last one was a merchant who we met on the road. Well, he pretty much just said "I like you guys, I'm going to travel with you," and we were done with it.



It's not always necessary to have long, drawn out introductions, but I do like at least the illusion of some effort put into them. I'm not a big fan of the you look trustworthy trope, but it does have its uses at times.

Jay R
2014-12-16, 03:09 PM
You don't need to develop a bond of trust or any other emotion. Just invent a solution and move on.

My northern Ranger was joining a game in progress. The PCs were a group that had traveled from the south. I was told that they had to travel through the forest on an important mission. So I said, "Them? They're southerners. They won't survive in the forest. I'd better go with them."

A little later, one of the characters asked me why I had joined them. I replied, "Too soon to tell. My mission may be to protect you from the forest. Or it may be to protect the forest from you."

The Grue
2014-12-17, 02:08 AM
"What could you tell us about this alien monster we're hunting?"
"...you're not cleared for that information."
"You send us here to kill it, and then don't tell us anything about it?"
"You have your orders. Don't call us again." *Click*

Sounds like Eclipse Phase to me. :smallbiggrin:

The Random NPC
2014-12-17, 04:20 PM
I have two stories, the first is my fault.
I had made a barbarian that would spend all day living in the woods and making wooden figurines, every week he would go into town to sell those figurines and spend it all on booze. Normally he would start a bar fight too. When the party tried to recruit me, I said I have no reason to join up. In retrospect, I guess I was waiting for something to force me into the party.
The second one, we were playing a Fate game set in the World of Warcraft universe. I made a Goblin Tinker, while most of the rest of the party make Alliance characters. My GM assured me that it would be okay, but I'd have to wait a bit to be introduced. I was a bit leery, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt. Turns out the GM was waiting for the group to go into Deadmines to fight off the pirates. My character would then jump in to help them with my explosions. Except the party couldn't understand the clues being left for them, so they never found out that the pirates that were Mysteriously Showing Up were using the nearby cave as a hideout. The game fell apart after about 4 sessions, but since we only played every other week, that was 2 months where I'd show up to the Hangout and sleep until they notified me my character was in the game.