Point Buy

[Honjuden]

For those of us that use point buy, what is the typical point buy for games you run? I ask this as I am trying to hone in on a point buy amount that is fair to my players, but isn't overpowering.

[Uncle Pine]

I always used 32 points except during the first couple of games I played in and run, but that was because we didn't knew about point-buy at all. :smalltongue:
I probably find playing with 32 point-buy natural because Neverwinter uses 32 points to build character and I played Neverwinter a lot back in the days.

[heavyfuel]

32 is good and what I generally use. However, the 3 campaigns I'm playing at the moment one uses 28 and the other 30 and I could build the characters decently enough, although none of them are MAD. I've also played with elite-array (25 points) and I found decent, mostly because it's an array, which I prefer when compared to straight point-buy.

Basically, go for whatever feels nice. I've seen tables that play with 48 PB and they loved it, while I think it's a bit too much.

Also, consider arrays for your table. They make it so that no character (looking at you, casters) can focus a lot on a single ability and ignore the rest. My favorite array is 17, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

[Optimator]

My group does 36 point-buy when we use it.

[Oddman80]

32 point buy for D&D 3.5
25 point buy for Pathfinder

[torrasque666]

My group uses 34 point buy, but I'm a fan of more low powered games so probably.... either 15 or 22 points.

[eggynack]

My group uses 34 point buy, but I'm a fan of more low powered games so probably.... either 15 or 22 points.
That might cause the opposite thing. Low powered MAD classes, like the monk, find it difficult to function under such a restrictive point buy, while high powered SAD classes, like the wizard, can manage just fine. Not to say that there's a one to one relationship between power and SADness, but I think the relationship is definitely a direct one.

[torrasque666]

That might cause the opposite thing. Low powered MAD classes, like the monk, find it difficult to function under such a restrictive point buy, while high powered SAD classes, like the wizard, can manage just fine. Not to say that there's a one to one relationship between power and SADness, but I think the relationship is definitely a direct one.
While this is true in a higher-op game, in lower op ones people tend to spread there scores out. They don't really dump in casual play. In my experience at least.

[eggynack]

While this is true in a higher-op game, in lower op ones people tend to spread there scores out. They don't really dump in casual play. In my experience at least.
I guess, but not dumping seems like a tricky thing to do when you're running PB that low. I guess someone could run the 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 array, but that setup would possibly make casters even more powerful. Even in a group that doesn't care that much about focusing on a stat, you've gotta think that caster guy would work a bit towards being able to cast his spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My group uses 34 point buy, but I'm a fan of more low powered games so probably.... either 15 or 22 points.

Ability scores make up such a tiny portion of overall power that this just seems needlessly punitive. It really screws the living crap out of anything even a little MAD and 15 is so low that you literally -can't- get an 18 even if you dump all your other stats to 8 (not that an 18 is really all that special). You get low powered games from low powered classes, not low ability characters.

I run 32pb but 25 or 28 wouldn't be terrible.

I'm also pretty sure, from past experience, that quite a large portion of the folks here run 32pb as well.

[Curmudgeon]

My point buy number varies by Tier (using the Tier System for Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266559-Tier-System-for-Classes-%28Rescued-from-MinMax%29)):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but realistically: just forget it. :smallsigh:
(This assumes you're going to start in your primary class. If you change the primary class in later levels you'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.) You get more points for the classes that are hard to make work otherwise. Spellcasters will still dominate the game, but it happens a few levels later.

[Vhaidara]

I run PF 25-30 point buy, and 3.5 42+. I prefer m players to have the ability scores they need/want to be effective/fitting for their character.

[Ruethgar]

I like Curmudgeon's rule, may steal it in the future. I normally just have 32pt buy.

[Forrestfire]

The only people I get a chance to play 3.5 with are those who enjoy the game at least partially because of the character-building minigame... Which means that higher point buy encourages lower-powered (and generally more mechanically interesting) characters most of the time.

Generally, I go with 32 point buy, with the players allowed to roll 4d6b3 (following the normal rules), and take 28 point buy if they don't like the rolls (because I personally enjoy rolling, but wouldn't want to force it on someone who doesn't. 28pb is a nice safety net for "you're still decent even if you go for the 'do you feel lucky' option and are in fact not).

[atemu1234]

I use 36 in the majority of my campaigns.

[Crake]

The way I run it is at the start of a game, I roll a stat array using 4d6 drop 1, bumping up all numbers less than 8 to 8, calculate that as a point buy, and if it's higher than 32, I use that, otherwise I use 32 point buy.

My current game is running on 35 point buy after using that rule.

[Kristinn]

Generally, I go with 32 point buy, with the players allowed to roll 4d6b3 (following the normal rules), and take 28 point buy if they don't like the rolls (because I personally enjoy rolling, but wouldn't want to force it on someone who doesn't. 28pb is a nice safety net for "you're still decent even if you go for the 'do you feel lucky' option and are in fact not).

I thought about this comment a bit, and decided to do the math on it (numerically). What I found is this:

1. 4d6b3 is equivalent to point buy with 29 points (or 29.25 to be accurate) if after rolling you bump all sub-8 stats up to 8 for free. The probability of having at least one sub-8 handicap stat after rolling is 29%, and the probability of having two or more is 4%.

2. The probability of getting a roll that is better than a 32 point buy is 33%, which is higher than I expected. Again, this is only true if sub-8 stats are fixed for free for the rolled character.

My conclusions? Give the players better dice to roll for stats. If I would ever roll for stat, it would have to be for a better expected return.

Method 1: With 2d8+1d6 it's equivalent to a 35 point buy, with a 53% chance of having higher stats than a 32 point buy. You still have a 43% chance to have at least one sub-8 stat, and a 10% chance to have two.

Method 2: With 1d8+3d6 drop lowest it's equivalent to a 38 point buy, with a 67% chance to have higher stats than the point buy. You have a 23% chance to have at least one sub-8 stat, but only 3% chance to have two.

You might feel the second alternative option is too strong, and I would agree if they don't roll in order. If your players roll in order however, it might be a fun and powerful enough way to tempt them from the 32-point buy.

If I would DM a group today, I would probably offer the choice of 32-point buy, rolling method 1 and arrange the stats, or rolling method 2 in order, and swapping any two stats.

EDIT: If someone wants to test other rolling methods I include the Matlab code here.

Equivalent point buy on average
------------------------------

D1=8; % die size 1
n1=1; % number of die size 1
D2=6; % die size 2
n2=3; % number of die size 2
d=1; % whether to drop lowest roll, 1 indicates yes, 0 indicates no

N=10^4; %number of interations to average over, 10000 is fine.

A=0;
b=0;
U=zeros(1,7);

for i=1:N %Iteration variable
P=0;
S=0;
u=0;


for j=1:6 %Stat variable
a=0;
for k=1:n1 %Die variable
a(k)=randi([1,D1],1,1);
end
for k=n1+1:n1+n2 %Die variable
a(k)=randi([1,D2],1,1);
end
S(j)=sum(a)-d*min(a);
if S(j)<8
P=P;
u=u+1;
elseif S(j)<15
P=P+S(j)-8;
elseif S(j)<17
P=P+(S(j)-14)*2+6;
else
P=P+(S(j)-16)*3+10;
end
end

if P>32
b=b+1;
end
A=A+P;
for i=1:7;
if u==i-1
U(i)=U(i)+1;
end
end


end

sprintf('The average equivalent point buy is %d points.\n', round(A/N))

sprintf('Probability of getting a roll that is better than 32 point buy is %d%%.\n', round(100*b/N) )

sprintf('The probability of having one or more stats under 8 is %d%%.\n', round(100*sum(U(2:end))/N) )

sprintf('The probability of having two or more stats under 8 is %d%%.\n', round(100*sum(U(3:end))/N) )

sprintf('The probability of having three or more stats under 8 is %d%%.\n', round(100*sum(U(4:end))/N) )

[Pex]

27-25-23

It's a combination of dice rolling and point buy.

Step 1: Roll 4d6, drop lowest, three times. Rolls less than 7 are 7. These are three of your scores.
Step 2: Choose a roll and subtract from 27. Cannot go above 18, so no 27 - 7 = 20. This is your 4th score.
Step 3: Choose another roll and subtract from 25. Note that 25 - 7 = 18. This your 5th score.
Step 4: Your final roll is subtracted from 23 for your 6th score, minimum 7, so no 23 - 18 = 5.
Step 5: Add 2 to any one score, max 18.
Step 6: Arrange as desired. Add racial modifiers.

Example of wanting to play a human paladin in Pathfinder:

Step 1: 11, 10, 14
Step 2: 27 - 11 = 16
Step 3: 25 - 10 = 15
Step 4: 23 - 14 = 9
Step 5: 9 + 2 = 11 or 15 + 2 = 17, choose
Step 6a (9 + 2): ST 16 DX 11 CO 14 IN 10 WI 11 CH 17 (15 + Human 2)
Step 6b (15 + 2): ST 18 (16 + Human 2) DX 11 CO 14 IN 9 WI 10 CH 17

Human barbarian

Step 1: 14, 13, 13
Step 2: 27 - 13 = 14
Step 3: 25 - 14 = 11
Step 4: 23 - 13 = 10
Step 5: 14 + 2 = 16
Step 6: ST 18 (16 + Human 2) DX 13 CO 14 IN 11 WI 13 CH 10

Edit: Fixed math

Human wizard

Step 1: 14, 11, 12
Step 2: 27 - 12 = 15
Step 3: 25 - 14 = 11
Step 4: 23 - 11 = 12
Step 5: 14 + 2 = 16
Step 6: ST 11 DX 12 CO 15 IN 18 (16 + Human 2) WI 12 CH 11 (switch DX and CO for taste)
Possibly: ST 11 DX 16 CO 12 IN 17 (15 + 2 Human) WI 12 CH 11

[Alanto]

Varies a bit by game, but if I'm running I prefer 25 point buy for 3.5, or 15 point for PF.

[TheOneHawk]

I'm still running my first ever campaign and I gave them 20 point buy and now I feel like maybe I was too strict? The guidelines said that 20 was high fantasy, but everyone seems to consider 25 low. What gives?

[frogglesmash]

Method 1: With 2d8+1d6 it's equivalent to a 35 point buy, with a 53% chance of having higher stats than a 32 point buy. You still have a 43% chance to have at least one sub-8 stat, and a 10% chance to have two.

Method 2: With 1d8+3d6 drop lowest it's equivalent to a 38 point buy, with a 67% chance to have higher stats than the point buy. You have a 23% chance to have at least one sub-8 stat, but only 3% chance to have two.


Another one I've seen is 5d6 drop 2 which seemed to bring the average up quite a bit (although I haven't bothered to do the math).

[Dread_Head]

I tend to vary this every time I run a campaign. Currently I'm using some high powered arrays (I think they come out to like 48 point buy). Previously I've used 6+d8 six times with a total of 15 extra points assigned 1-1 after that (max 18).

I prefer combinations of rolling and point buy, something like 2d6 six times with a 30 point buy on top could be cool. Gives some of the variance of Rolling whilst still giving consistently similar scores.

[ThisIsZen]

I'm still running my first ever campaign and I gave them 20 point buy and now I feel like maybe I was too strict? The guidelines said that 20 was high fantasy, but everyone seems to consider 25 low. What gives?

Pathfinder and D&D 3.5 have slightly different point-buy rules. In 3.5, all scores start at 8, whereas in Pathfinder all scores start at 10. Thus, 20 points goes a lot further in PF than it would in 3.5.

[Yahzi]

I'm still running my first ever campaign and I gave them 20 point buy and now I feel like maybe I was too strict? The guidelines said that 20 was high fantasy, but everyone seems to consider 25 low. What gives?
What gives is that people on this board are jaded power-op munchikins, each and every one. :smallbiggrin:

I use Curmudgeon's system (base it on tiers) though my range is 21 to 29.

20 sounds great. It just means when they find a stat-boosting item they will be thrilled.

[Khedrac]

Because most of the players I play with started through Living Greyhawk we almost always use 28 point buy.

I believe the DMG considers 25pt normal and 28pt strong - it tends to make me laugh when all the posters on these forums assume 32pt or better as the standard.

[ILM]

I guess someone could run the 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 array, but that setup would possibly make casters even more powerful.
Except for the whole "can't cast level X spells if you don't have a casting stat score of at least 10+X".


I use 32 pb too, but I think we should be specific: that's 32 point-buy using the standard costs in the PHB (or DMG? I forget) - so that going from 14 to 15 actually costs 2 points. I suspect TheOneHawk uses 20 point buy but on a one for one basis, or maybe starting with all 10s.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm still running my first ever campaign and I gave them 20 point buy and now I feel like maybe I was too strict? The guidelines said that 20 was high fantasy, but everyone seems to consider 25 low. What gives?

I'm betting that's PF?

If so then you have to realize that 25pb in 3.5 is -much- lower in the resultant abilities it can yield. In 3.5 the 25pb was derived from the elite array 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15.

[frogglesmash]

I can understand why some people might like low point by but many people (myself included) really don't like to have bad stats. I don't mean that I want 18s across the board but if I'm playing a rogue I don't want to be my high dex force everything else to be an 8.

[Dread_Head]

Except for the whole "can't cast level X spells if you don't have a casting stat score of at least 10+X".


You are fine casting level 0 and 1 spells. At third level you miss out on seconds but at 4th the +1 gives you the ability to cast second level spells. At 5th you can afford a +2 item and from then on with items and the level up bonuses you can cast every spell level at the level you receive it.


I believe the DMG considers 25pt normal and 28pt strong - it tends to make me laugh when all the posters on these forums assume 32pt or better as the standard.

The DMG says 25 for a normal campaign going up to 32 for a challenging campaign and I'd guess most people on these boards play in challenging or harder games, so yes 32pb isn't unreasonable.

I prefer my characters to be competent at what they do so I like higher scores. I wouldn't not play in a low score game I'd just play a different character to the type I normally play.

[eggynack]

Except for the whole "can't cast level X spells if you don't have a casting stat score of at least 10+X".
No, including that fact. Given the general timing of stat boosting item acquisition, along with level up based +1's, a caster can keep up with all ability score based spell casting requirements apart from the need to have 12 in a casting stat at level 3. If we shuffle the scores a bit, making it all 10's and a 13, or all 10's, an 11, and a 12, then the caster would not suffer even that hardship. The fact of the matter is, with only one stat that needs increasing, casters are better equipped to deal with limited starting stats than other classes, both because they can invest all PB into one stat (which was denied), and because they can focus their attention on that stat during the actual game (which was not).

[ILM]

Well, I stand corrected, but it's still a close shave for the first few levels, especially if your DM decides to be stingy with early stat-boosting items.

[Sudokori]

I'm not a fan of point-buy due to bad experiences with bad Dm's, but my group uses the 4d6 drop lowest method. But if one guy rolls crap stats then the Dm usually pulls out 5-13 points to boost his stats on a 1=1 point-stat conversion, none over 18 though.

It worked out really well until one guy rolled 3 18's in front of everyone. So we ended up subtracting about 6 or 12 from his scores so he wouldn't unbalance the party. Like his point buy comparison was fifty something.

I did the math and most of my group is around that 32pb range

[Honjuden]

Alright, so I guess the 28 point buy I have been using isn't that bad. I am interested in possibly using Crake's method in the future. Thanks for the input everyone.

[TheOneHawk]

Btw yes, I play pathfinder and no, I don't use 1 for 1 points, I use the standard PF table. I was originally planning on 15 point buy but wanted the world I made to be a bit more rough and tumble so I gave them a couple levels off the bat and 20 point buy so they could survive it. They then turned around and took on encounters twice their CR with 3 people and barely got scratched -.-

[Forrestfire]

That's... Likely not a result of their point buy, to be honest. With no other information, I'm inclined to point to their presumably well-made character building choices.

[TheOneHawk]

Just a really strong party synergy for the most part.

Entertainingly, right after taking down a dark naga at level 4, one of them died to an encounter where the party was forced to split for a couple rounds and I ambushed them with some shadows, not realizing that the party had ALL dumped strength. Derp.

[Forrestfire]

Ha, wow. Did they manage to bring him back?

[TheOneHawk]

Nope, as far as they know there's no resurrection magic in the world, so they buried him and his player is making a new character right now. Little do they know they're maybe 2 sessions away from finding an item capable of resurrecting someone. Bad timing lol.

[2gig]

36 point buy if all ability scores are below 16 (before racial mods), otherwise 30 point buy. I find this helpful for dealing with MAD vs SAD. It also incentives players to build more rounded characters.