Control Winds Abuse

[fallensavior]

Any advice for dealing with a player utilizing this broken spell without banning or gutting core rules?

A straight reading of Control Winds sounds like a 10th level druid can flatten everything in a 500k square feet area and indirectly kill most things in it.

[Hazrond]

well, a 10th level druid is already a powerful caster in their own right and their main schtick is natural disasters, so it seems fitting enough for a druid that high level (i think most people dont top level 5 in their life) to have some pwoerful spells, even if their not world ending yet

[fallensavior]

well, a 10th level druid is already a powerful caster in their own right and their main schtick is natural disasters, so it seems fitting enough for a druid that high level (i think most people dont top level 5 in their life) to have some pwoerful spells, even if their not world ending yet

I expect casters to be powerful...I don't expect them to destroy entire civilizations 25 city blocks at a time.

RAW, this spell is way more powerful than higher level spells with similar effect. Control Weather, Earthquake, and Storm of Vengeance pale in comparison to the meekly named Control Winds.

[eggynack]

Control winds is fantastic, but I wouldn't characterize it as flattening and/or murdering everything, at least not at 10th level. At that level, you're generally stuck at windstorm speeds without CL boosters or high base wind speed. This means that the druid gets to knock down medium creatures, break branches, and of course, block ranged weapons. Which is, yeah, really good. Just a great mixture of defense, BFC, and utility, across a wide range, as a standard action. It's not killing anything though, and you only really get to flatten things that are easy to flatten. I suspect that your player is either using CL boosters, to hit tornado speeds, which would indeed have the effects you're mentioning, or you're just misreading things such that you assume that tornadoes are available without said CL boosters.

[fallensavior]

Control winds is fantastic, but I wouldn't characterize it as flattening and/or murdering everything, at least not at 10th level. At that level, you're generally stuck at windstorm speeds without CL boosters or high base wind speed. This means that the druid gets to knock down medium creatures, break branches, and of course, block ranged weapons. Which is, yeah, really good. Just a great mixture of defense, BFC, and utility, across a wide range, as a standard action. It's not killing anything though, and you only really get to flatten things that are easy to flatten. I suspect that your player is either using CL boosters, to hit tornado speeds, which would indeed have the effects you're mentioning, or you're just misreading things such that you assume that tornadoes are available without said CL boosters.

Yes, I'm going off of the tornado effect. Even if a player waits until 12th level to do it tornado-style (Which they don't have to because of CL boosters) It is still ridiculously overpowered and level inappropriate.

I'm thinking the most elegant solution would be to either increase the number of CLs required per tier increase to 4 or 5 OR maybe just to move Control Weather down to a 5th level spell, move Storm of Vengeance down to 7th level, and have Control Winds as a 9th level spell.

[Rickshaw]

Why not instead of changing the player, change the campaign? Let the druid have some fun being a tornado for a bit, then have it be blocked by an equally powerful caster. Have the city be built of magically reinforced stone. Change it up and have an underground city where everything is stone and ppl just close the doors and the wind whooshes past.

In short, instead of saying no when someone wants to do something cool but OP, say "yes, but..." And have the cool and the good.

[deuxhero]

Pft, you can use the Locate City Bomb at half that level

Control Winds is one of the best mass destruction spells out there but

1: It's druid/otherwise terrible domain only
2: The same level as Lesser Planar Binding, Dominate Person and Fabricate (just looking at the core wizard list), spells that can break the game just being used as intended
3: Rarely is a few city blocks an ECL10+ encounter. Things that present threats to you tend to live in dungeons (and thus sheltered against the wind) or be huge (like a dragon) and not effected that much. Good if you are facing an army, but that's about it
4: You are in the center of the effect at the start. Magic Items with teleportation could easily get you out of being a sitting duck in the eye, but worth noting

[fallensavior]

Pft, you can use the Locate City Bomb at half that level

Control Winds is one of the best mass destruction spells out there but

1: It's druid/otherwise terrible domain only
2: The same level as Lesser Planar Binding, Dominate Person and Fabricate (just looking at the core wizard list), spells that can break the game just being used as intended
3: Rarely is a few city blocks an ECL10+ encounter. Things that present threats to you tend to live in dungeons (and thus sheltered against the wind) or be huge (like a dragon) and not effected that much. Good if you are facing an army, but that's about it
4: You are in the center of the effect at the start. Magic Items with teleportation could easily get you out of being a sitting duck in the eye, but worth noting

3: Nothing in the spell says you can't use it indoors/underground/wherever...and even collosal creatures are grounded and checked by tornado speed wind.

4: No. The area and the range being the same suggests that you can't cast the spell without being in it, but Control Winds specifies:

A- That you can limit the spell to a smaller area.
B- That you can create a calm center inside the spell
C- The spell only goes 40ft up, so a wildshaped druid can cast it from the air and fly over it safely.

Might as well cast a Call Lightning while you're up there, and it will do extra damage too, because hey, there's a super tornado here.

[Zrak]

Yeah, it's ridiculously overpowered in terms of what it can technically do, it's just that the overpowered thing it can technically do isn't useful in a whole lot of situations the average party faces. For the times when it is useful, trivially eradicating major obstacles with standard actions is what spell casters are all about. It's a good spell, but it's never going to be particularly egregious unless your party's goals involve a lot of town destruction.

[fallensavior]

Why not instead of changing the player, change the campaign? Let the druid have some fun being a tornado for a bit, then have it be blocked by an equally powerful caster. Have the city be built of magically reinforced stone. Change it up and have an underground city where everything is stone and ppl just close the doors and the wind whooshes past.

In short, instead of saying no when someone wants to do something cool but OP, say "yes, but..." And have the cool and the good.

Not a bad idea, but I want the base rules to work for all settings...so I'm more interested in DM rulings on what the spell can/can't do or how to fix it than story adaption.

[fallensavior]

Yeah, it's ridiculously overpowered in terms of what it can technically do, it's just that the overpowered thing it can technically do isn't useful in a whole lot of situations the average party faces. For the times when it is useful, trivially eradicating major obstacles with standard actions is what spell casters are all about. It's a good spell, but it's never going to be particularly egregious unless your party's goals involve a lot of town destruction.

Yes, unequaled at destroying stuff...but even discounting the people that are dying with a building collapsed on top of them, creatures in the spell area have to make a fortitude save or suffer the environmental effects of a tornado:


Tornado (CR 10)

All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are Listen checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage may apply). While a tornado’s rotational speed can be as great as 300 mph, the funnel itself moves forward at an average of 30 mph (roughly 250 feet per round). A tornado uproots trees, destroys buildings, and causes other similar forms of major destruction.

[Zrak]

That's an average of 115 damage on a failed save, not counting falling damage, which seems high until you consider a successful dominate is basically infinity damage on a failed save. The area of effect is nasty, but the the fact that it happens in a radius around the party makes it as much of a liability as anything else to use it in a lot of situations; if the PCs make a tornado, it's fair to have any monsters in the eye with them bull rush the PCs into their own tornado.

[fallensavior]

That's an average of 115 damage on a failed save, not counting falling damage, which seems high until you consider a successful dominate is basically infinity damage on a failed save. The area of effect is nasty, but the the fact that it happens in a radius around the party makes it as much of a liability as anything else to use it in a lot of situations; if the PCs make a tornado, it's fair to have any monsters in the eye with them bull rush the PCs into their own tornado.

It's more than that. Unlike a natural tornado that can only grab you once as it passes by, this one is huge and just sits there for two hours. There's no logical reason why it wouldn't continue doing that damage for the 2 hour duration.

But it only goes 40 feet up, so theres nothing to stop the rest of the party(not that you need one) from flying over and taking potshots.

[Werephilosopher]

It's more than that. Unlike a natural tornado that can only grab you once as it passes by, this one is huge and just sits there for two hours. There's no logical reason why it wouldn't continue doing that damage for the 2 hour duration.

But it only goes 40 feet up, so theres nothing to stop the rest of the party(not that you need one) from flying over and taking potshots.

Nothing to stop certain enemies from flying over, either. Or burrowing under, if they have that power.

It is indeed a powerful spell, but it's important to note that most of the time, this kind of wide-scale destruction is bad for the party as well as their enemies. Bandit camp? Blast it with a tornado, and any prisoners they may have get killed. Dragon sleeping on her hoard? Summon a gale, and spend the next two hours wriggling through cracks in the cave walls to get all the treasure you scattered. Army marching through the forest? Create a windstorm powerful enough to rip trees from the ground, and when the army is destroyed answer to the treants who just lost their home. Control winds can be better than dominate person in that it's an area-of-effect, but can be worse for the same reason - it gets messy real quick.

[fallensavior]

Nothing to stop certain enemies from flying over, either. Or burrowing under, if they have that power.

It is indeed a powerful spell, but it's important to note that most of the time, this kind of wide-scale destruction is bad for the party as well as their enemies. Bandit camp? Blast it with a tornado, and any prisoners they may have get killed. Dragon sleeping on her hoard? Summon a gale, and spend the next two hours wriggling through cracks in the cave walls to get all the treasure you scattered. Army marching through the forest? Create a windstorm powerful enough to rip trees from the ground, and when the army is destroyed answer to the treants who just lost their home. Control winds can be better than dominate person in that it's an area-of-effect, but can be worse for the same reason - it gets messy real quick.

Consequences are good. Doesn't reassure me about having the WMD abused at that level though when the only drawback is that it's too destructive. It can be cast with a smaller area though if the caster wants to avoid collateral damage.

[JDL]

Note that wind speed goes up through the following stages:

Light
Moderate
Strong
Severe
Windstorm
Hurricane
Tornado

The spell specifies that you can increase the strength for every 3 caster levels. If you're going from Light to Tornado, that requires CL: 18.

[fallensavior]

Note that wind speed goes up through the following stages:

Light
Moderate
Strong
Severe
Windstorm
Hurricane
Tornado

The spell specifies that you can increase the strength for every 3 caster levels. If you're going from Light to Tornado, that requires CL: 18.

Ah, good catch. I see that listed in the weather section, but the spell makes it sound like you can start at Strong. Is there anything rules-wise to stop a player from casting Gust of Wind to create a Strong stage wind and using Control Wind to up it from there?

[Zrak]

Not really, no. The one-round duration on Gust of Wind makes it a bit of a hassle, but metamagic or an alley-oop from a friendly sorcerer/wizard solves that problem easily enough. Also, Gust of Wind creates winds of "approximately 50 miles per hour," meaning it creates severe-strength winds.

I think the main issue with the size and duration isn't even collateral damage, it's that its location makes it a liability to the party if it's a danger to any creatures in mêlée range.

[JDL]

From the rules about stacking spells:

Stacking Effects
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Different Bonus Names
The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant
Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.

As a DM I'd rule:
Per the opening paragraph, these two are bonuses of the same type (modification of wind speed) and therefore don't stack. This is due to, as per the final paragraph, one spell (Control Winds) making another spell (Gust of Wind) irrelevant. Since Control Winds increases the wind speed above that of Gust of Wind, only the highest bonus applies.

[Incorrect]

It is a powerful spell, that much we agree on. Several things can be done
- House rule it
- Talk to the player ooc
- Have the character deal with the consequences. "That guy has a weapon of mass destruction! Someone do something!"

He has the power to level a city, but the downside of that, is that he just leveled a city!
After casting in the wild have the entire area be filled with smashed trees, dead animals, and a wrecked ecosystem.
Enemies might be dead but their loot is spread over a large area of pure destruction, time for some really hard search checks.

[Red Fel]

Another key point: Look at the range, then look at the radius, then look back at the range. They're the same thing.

Now, the PC can reduce the size of the affected area. And this fact encourages the PC to do precisely that. Why?

Because if your PC is standing at the edge of his tornado, he gets sucked in. Nothing in the spell says that he is immune to his own winds. Quite the contrary. I know this, because I worked very hard to find a way to be immune to it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363006-Building-a-Tempest). What's more, once he's sucked in, the DC on Concentration checks will skyrocket - and according to the spell description, he needs to concentrate in order to adjust the spell. And unless he adjusts the spell, the chances of his escaping its radius basically drop to zilch.

So remind him of this fact. Encourage him to reduce the size of the radius. Dramatically.

Also, consider implementing environmental destruction. Sure, if he uses a juiced up Control Winds, he can pretty much slaughter anything in range. But he won't loot anything from their bodies, which will be pulverized to a fine red mist. Or their homes, which will collapse. Or caverns, which will cave in. Or anything else. Wreck the place. Yay, you win, have some complimentary debris.

Aside from that, talking to your players is indeed a thing.

[eggynack]

Yes, I'm going off of the tornado effect. Even if a player waits until 12th level to do it tornado-style (Which they don't have to because of CL boosters) It is still ridiculously overpowered and level inappropriate.
I'm pretty sure you need a caster level of 15, rather than 12, to get a tornado. First boost goes to making the wind strong, and then subsequent boosts move on from there. Thus, easy solution, perhaps don't allow access to those big CL boosters. There aren't that many of them, and they can be kinda wonky.


Another key point: Look at the range, then look at the radius, then look back at the range. They're the same thing.
Yes, but, as was noted, you can create an area of calm in the center of the tornado. In particular, it can be of an 80 ft. diameter. While close proximity can have a negative impact, but I've gotta think that 40 feet is sufficient to escape that effect.

[Red Fel]

Yes, but, as was noted, you can create an area of calm in the center of the tornado. In particular, it can be of an 80 ft. diameter. While close proximity can have a negative impact, but I've gotta think that 40 feet is sufficient to escape that effect.

It's a fair point; you can sit safely in the eye of the tornado. But by the same token, you really can't do anything else. Ranged attacks fail. Voices don't carry. Unless you can teleport out, you're basically stuck there until you disperse the tornado.

Now, you might kick it up for a couple of rounds, and then throw it down. Waste of a good tornado if you ask me, but nobody did. In that case, the damage is likely minimal, but more importantly, your enemies have become aware of you. Kind of hard to miss something like that, and as others have pointed out, when that becomes your signature, people take notice. More importantly, it's not easy - or wise - to have too many copies of that spell at the ready, so once your wind barricade goes down, you'd best be ready to run.

Make the radius too small, and your enemies will simply surround it and prepare to fire in as soon as it clears. Too large, and it will be painfully obvious where you've been, making it easy to track you, and you'll likely be attacked in your sleep. (You know, when spells aren't prepared yet.)

[eggynack]

It's a fair point; you can sit safely in the eye of the tornado. But by the same token, you really can't do anything else. Ranged attacks fail. Voices don't carry. Unless you can teleport out, you're basically stuck there until you disperse the tornado.)
You can cast spells. Doesn't look like anything about a tornado blocks vision or LoE. By the same token, enemies can cast spells in, but you have a big advantage on that exchange, which is the ability to put the enemy caster inside of the enemy exploding tornado. It looks like they could even effectively take on the deafened condition, imposing a spell failure chance, though you're only imposing the one effect of deafened rather than the actual condition, so it's a bit fiaty. This is definitely better in terms of ability to impact stuff within or on the other side of the spell than something like blizzard, which just turns off vision.

[fallensavior]

Ignoring the cost difference, and assuming CL to reliably make tornadoes with Control Winds...

Can anyone think of any situation when they would rather cast Whirlwind or Storm of Vengeance than Control Winds?

[eggynack]

Can anyone think of any situation when they would rather cast Whirlwind or Storm of Vengeance than Control Winds?
Not really. Those spells are significantly worse than control winds, even assuming those spells as 5th's. Really an issue with crappy 9th's, to some extent. After all, neither control winds nor storm of vengeance come anywhere close to shapechange.

[Curmudgeon]

Ah, good catch. I see that listed in the weather section, but the spell makes it sound like you can start at Strong.
Well, you can start at Strong, because the minimum CL necessary to cast this level 5 spell is 9.

[The Grue]

3: Nothing in the spell says you can't use it indoors/underground/wherever...

I would suggest utilizing a little DM Fiat/Common Sense. Even via magic, I'd say it's reasonable to limit underground winds.

[eggynack]

Well, you can start at Strong, because the minimum CL necessary to cast this level 5 spell is 9.
I disagree with the general assertion that you have to progress through those lower levels of wind strength. Yes, there is a separate listing of wind strength that has more levels to it, but the spell control winds has its own definition of wind strength categories that supersedes that one. I don't think you start at strong either though, because the level below strong represents its own broad "non-existent" wind strength category. Thus, the first set of three levels takes you to strong, the next to severe, and the third to windstorm.

Not only do you not have to traverse specifically through moderate, but I don't think you're even capable of doing so. As additional support for this argument, it's worth note that the environment section doesn't seem to use the term wind strength, meaning that light and moderate might not even technically qualify as wind strengths, existing merely as some less specific designation called wind force or something.

[Curmudgeon]

I disagree with the general assertion that you have to progress through those lower levels of wind strength. Yes, there is a separate listing of wind strength that has more levels to it, but the spell control winds has its own definition of wind strength categories that supersedes that one.
You're mistaken, I think. The Control Winds list is complete for the spell simply because of this rule (from page 171 of Player's Handbook):
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. The minimum CL for Control Winds is 9.
For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level. (The categories of wind strength are briefly described below, with more detail to be found in the Dungeon Master’s Guide.) JDL already posted that list from Dungeon Master's Guide. The lowest strength of wind listed in the spell is the third one (CL 9/3 = 3), Strong.

[eggynack]

You're mistaken, I think. The Control Winds list is complete for the spell simply because of this rule (from page 171 of Player's Handbook): The minimum CL for Control Winds is 9. JDL already posted that list from Dungeon Master's Guide. The lowest strength of wind listed in the spell is the third one (CL 9/3 = 3), Strong.
I don't think there's any requirement that you use all of the spell's possible wind strength. It says can, after all. Besides, even if you did have to use the entire spell power, the spell also allows you to reduce wind strength. This means that, starting from windstorm at CL 9, you should be forced to specifically reduce to moderate if you're using the reduction mode. Thus the spell's listing is necessarily incomplete if it's making use of the full range of DMG wind speeds.

[Telok]

And of course there's the ever popular "If the PCs can do it then a NPC can do it."

Payer uses nukes? Guess who also has nukes?

[fallensavior]

And of course there's the ever popular "If the PCs can do it then a NPC can do it."

Payer uses nukes? Guess who also has nukes?

Yes, I usually use a Mutually Assured Destruction strategy on other nasty spells (Morkenkainen Disjunction, anyone?), but in Control Winds's case that would just doubly ruin my campaign world.

[aleucard]

Yes, I usually use a Mutually Assured Destruction strategy on other nasty spells (Morkenkainen Disjunction, anyone?), but in Control Winds's case that would just doubly ruin my campaign world.

MDJ has a drawback built into it already (that's the party's loot they're killing), but I do agree that abuse of things like Control Winds should come with the warning that the players' use of it frees the DM to use something comparably warped in return. If the party wants to play that way, everyone has fun playing the game they want. If not, you don't have to deal with it. Just bear in mind that the fact that they know the spell should mean they get at least SOME opportunity to use it. This seems like the perfect thing to spring a Zerg Swarm on a party for; it wrecks **** up in a way nothing worth listening to will begrudge the party for, it lets them use their nuke, and you can still relatively easily circumvent it (it's easy to find both flight and burrow speed at these levels). The funneling effect that having only two doors of attack should mean that the party doesn't get overwhelmed easily, and few things scream Epic louder than a slaughterfest in the eye of a bloodnado (because by the end of the first minute, probably half of the tornado's volume will be the giblets of the Zerg Swarm).

It sounds like something that Dethklok would do, to be honest. :smallbiggrin:

[Lanson]

Nothing in the spell says that he is immune to his own winds. Quite the contrary. I know this, because I worked very hard to find a way to be immune to it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363006-Building-a-Tempest).

Shortening the quote to relevant part. Looks like Arcane Hierophant may have an advantage in this market by casting Resilient Sphere before hand. That and it has even more versatility beyond just a druid/cleric with the right domain.

[eggynack]

Best way to get immunity to control winds, or at least my favorite way, is aberration wild shape for the windghost from the MM II, combined with the ever-awesome enhance wild shape. Just gets you direct and complete immunity to air effects. Granted, you need to have a wild shape level of 18, but I always like it when a method of accomplishing something is relatively native to the class. Pretty good form in general too, with fast healing, immunity to mind-effecting, and a decent chassis. Also, you get to be a windghost, which is just the best.

[fallensavior]

Best way to get immunity to control winds, or at least my favorite way, is aberration wild shape for the windghost from the MM II, combined with the ever-awesome enhance wild shape. Just gets you direct and complete immunity to air effects. Granted, you need to have a wild shape level of 18, but I always like it when a method of accomplishing something is relatively native to the class. Pretty good form in general too, with fast healing, immunity to mind-effecting, and a decent chassis. Also, you get to be a windghost, which is just the best.

Eh?

Couldn't you just cast Freedom of Movement, or wild shape to air elemental, or be a Stormlord?

[aleucard]

Eh?

Couldn't you just cast Freedom of Movement

I don't have any judgement on the rest of it, but last I checked FoM didn't make you immune to bullrushing, which is basically what the wind is doing constantly to your character. It's a get-out-of-grapple/entanglement/related free card, not something that stops you from being forcibly moved. It would (probably) work on the checked condition, but if you're being slammed around, that ain't going to help.

[fallensavior]

I don't have any judgement on the rest of it, but last I checked FoM didn't make you immune to bullrushing, which is basically what the wind is doing constantly to your character. It's a get-out-of-grapple/entanglement/related free card, not something that stops you from being forcibly moved. It would (probably) work on the checked condition, but if you're being slammed around, that ain't going to help.

Up to your DM. It specifically alters the physics of underwater movement and specifically nullifies solid fog. I'm thinking (as a DM) that it should be mostly effective against Control Winds.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Up to your DM. It specifically alters the physics of underwater movement and specifically nullifies solid fog. I'm thinking (as a DM) that it should be mostly effective against Control Winds.

I don't see what either of those has to do with the effects of strong wind. You could argue that FoM allows you to ignore the checked condition, but any other effects would still apply (and being checked is really the least of your problems when you're stuck in a tornado).


Best way to get immunity to control winds, or at least my favorite way, is aberration wild shape for the windghost from the MM II, combined with the ever-awesome enhance wild shape. Just gets you direct and complete immunity to air effects. Granted, you need to have a wild shape level of 18, but I always like it when a method of accomplishing something is relatively native to the class. Pretty good form in general too, with fast healing, immunity to mind-effecting, and a decent chassis. Also, you get to be a windghost, which is just the best.
Or you could just cast Stormrage. Complete immunity to wind effects, perfect flight, immunity to most ranged attacks and some weak blasting that you can use while your tornado decimates your enemies (at least it doesn't have a save). As a bonus you can share it with your animal companion.

[Chronos]

You can produce tornadoes as soon as you're able to cast the spell, without any CL boosters. All you need is to start with a naturally strong-enough wind. For the sorts of things this spell is useful for, you can probably afford to wait a couple of days for the right moment to cast it, and no place stays completely calm for days on end. Nor do you actually need tornadoes for it to be effective as a WMD: Hurricane-level winds will do pretty well for knocking out an army, too. And a 9th-level caster, in an area with naturally-strong winds (which aren't that rare, and are in fact the default in many places) can go straight to hurricane.

[ericgrau]

At level 9 in calm weather you merely create a bad storm, not end civilization. Maybe more but that requires luck. Even a hurricane won't wipe out a city, especially in areas that get hit by them anyway and are built for it. Tornados damage wooden villages not stone cities and you don't control where the tornado appears AFAIK. Against high level monsters the effects are pretty weak. Against civilization it's a big problem but not civilization ending. Especially in big cities who have their own high level characters to take it down and/or take the caster down.

I'd let it slide. It's near useless in most fights. And it gives something interesting for both the PCs and NPCs to do to a plot. Even against an army it's merely very good. A hurricane does some small mass nonlethal damage and delays their advance for a few rounds until someone dispels it.

If we assume the whole area is a large tornado then with lucky bad weather or caster level 15 you could kill a large number of soldiers in a 600 foot radius, but then at high level low level soldiers aren't much of a threat anyway even in mass. And that still isn't a whole army, it's only 1/5th of a mile across. 1/4 of a city block.

[eggynack]

Snip
It sounds like the player is running something like orange ioun stone+prayer bead of karma, granting full tornado power at level 10.

[ericgrau]

Then the problem is the bead of karma abuse not control winds abuse. Who could possibly have one for sale? And you can't craft one by itself either. You need nearly 100k gp for the whole strand. For 130k gp let the player destroy a chunk of an army or a 1/4 block of a village now and then because it'll be weak against other high level foes and it took 3 players' combined wbl.

There are a few other spells the DM will have to nerf if he lets this slide. Namely everything CL dependent. There is no plausible way for an NPC to only have a bead of karma for sale by itself.

[eggynack]

Then the problem is the bead of karma abuse not control winds abuse. Who could possibly have one for sale? And you can't craft one by itself either. You need nearly 100k gp for the whole strand. For 130k gp let the player destroy a chunk of an army or a 1/4 block of a village now and then because it'll be weak against other high level foes and it took 3 players' combined wbl.

There are a few other spells the DM will have to nerf if he lets this slide. Namely everything CL dependent. There is no plausible way for an NPC to only have a bead of karma for sale by itself.
Well, you can also use an ankh of ascension from the MIC to fill that role, first off. Gets you to the same basic place, albeit in weaker fashion. I also don't think there's anything quite on the scale of control winds in terms of the value of CL, aside from something like giant vermin. However, I generally agree with you. Limit the CL boosting, and you end up with a spell that's great rather than broken.

[thematgreen]

Why not instead of changing the player, change the campaign? Let the druid have some fun being a tornado for a bit, then have it be blocked by an equally powerful caster. Have the city be built of magically reinforced stone. Change it up and have an underground city where everything is stone and ppl just close the doors and the wind whooshes past.

In short, instead of saying no when someone wants to do something cool but OP, say "yes, but..." And have the cool and the good.

The best DMs do this. Never say "NO!" say "Yes, but...". It's how I DM.

[ericgrau]

Yes and no. "Yes, but the entire universe is created to stop you" is worse than "no". Then you waste your time and resources on something you'd be better off without, and "no" would have been a lot better so you can move on. Foes should respond and prepare, but they shouldn't get supernatural insight on what to prepare against you. The construction of the entire universe shouldn't shift just to stop a player's tactic. "Hey, who in the world could have sold you a bead of karma by itself" is a far more gentle move.

Also, "You can do it with MIC though it's weaker" is a bad sign. MIC items are usually stronger.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yes and no. "Yes, but the entire universe is created to stop you" is worse than "no". Then you waste your time and resources on something you'd be better off without, and "no" would have been a lot better so you can move on. Foes should respond and prepare, but they shouldn't get supernatural insight on what to prepare against you. The construction of the entire universe shouldn't shift just to stop a player's tactic. "Hey, who in the world could have sold you a bead of karma by itself" is a far more gentle move.

People responding to you using tornados to level entire cities is hardly a case of "the universe is created to stop you". It's a logical consequence of being a mass-murdering terrorist, because that kind of news gets around.


Also, "You can do it with MIC though it's weaker" is a bad sign. MIC items are usually stronger.
Rating something based on what book it's found in is stupid. There's tons of strong to borderline broken items in other books. MIC may have a lot of good items along with a surprisingly low amount of duds but that's mainly because it's a book dedicated entirely to equipment (and one of the later 3.5 releases).
And CL boosts aren't exactly rare. Someone made a list over at minmaxboards that's several pages long.

[eggynack]

Also, "You can do it with MIC though it's weaker" is a bad sign. MIC items are usually stronger.
I guess. No one's saying that the prayer bead of karma isn't really good. Point is, this thing is doable whether the prayer bead is sold or not.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then the problem is the bead of karma abuse not control winds abuse. Who could possibly have one for sale? And you can't craft one by itself either. You need nearly 100k gp for the whole strand. For 130k gp let the player destroy a chunk of an army or a 1/4 block of a village now and then because it'll be weak against other high level foes and it took 3 players' combined wbl.

There are a few other spells the DM will have to nerf if he lets this slide. Namely everything CL dependent. There is no plausible way for an NPC to only have a bead of karma for sale by itself.

While there -is- a problem with these kinds of CL shenanigans the cost isn't that high. The sum of an orange prism ioun stone and a strand of prayer beads is only 75,800. Cost to create is half that at 37,900. The prayer beads alone are only 22.9k to create. He'll be able to afford that in another level or two; late level 10 or early 11.

[ericgrau]

Never said MIC was a bad book. It has fun stuff and a little power creep is expected. Yes, CL shenanigans in general should be watched.

I see, you only need a standard strand of prayer beads. Then you need level 11, a month of downtime and 1/3rd of your WBL. For a powerful option that's mediocre in high level combat. Only for impressive between combat attacks against non-combat-threats of about 1/4 of a block per spell. If the player sacrifices that much of his gear to gain something like that, let him have it. "I'm not as good in a high level fight as I could be, but watch me flatten 100 weaklings and their homes with a single spell." Ok, neat.

The bigger problem is holy word on a cleric, and for that you need a moment to buff and foes that don't have HD higher than their CR. And not immune to paralysis. Mainly NPCs and things with templates. For other monsters this is uncommon. Again when it does work let him shine.

[sleepyphoenixx]

CL increases work pretty well in high level combat. Better SR penetration, increased effectiveness of scaling buffs like Magic Vestment, Barkskin etc., hitting breakpoints on spells like Create Undead, better dispel resistance, higher chance to dispel the enemy... there's tons of benefits to having a CL in excess of your HD.

[natos4unlife]

you can probably afford to wait a couple of days for the right moment to cast it, and no place stays completely calm for days on end.

I live in North Dakota. Wind is our most abundant resource, as we have no trees to block any of it. I have seen spans of weeks go by with little more than a breeze. :P

[Chronos]

Ah, I'm more familiar with coastal areas, where you almost always get a good wind every morning and evening.

[ericgrau]

CL increases work pretty well in high level combat. Better SR penetration, increased effectiveness of scaling buffs like Magic Vestment, Barkskin etc., hitting breakpoints on spells like Create Undead, better dispel resistance, higher chance to dispel the enemy... there's tons of benefits to having a CL in excess of your HD.

It is quite nice, but the bead of karma only lasts 10 minutes so it's pretty much only good for hour/level buffs and quick dungeon runs. So often not half of those (though other CL boosters may help them). If you blow a combat round or even a buff round you need to weigh it against other options and the net gain is minimal or it may even be worse than other free options.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It is quite nice, but the bead of karma only lasts 10 minutes so it's pretty much only good for hour/level buffs and quick dungeon runs. So often not half of those (though other CL boosters may help them). If you blow a combat round or even a buff round you need to weigh it against other options and the net gain is minimal or it may even be worse than other free options.

The real problem is when you combine the bead of karma with the 4500gp ankh of ascension. +8 to your caster level is just nasty even if you can only do it for 10 minutes a day and while burning double the slots.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It is quite nice, but the bead of karma only lasts 10 minutes so it's pretty much only good for hour/level buffs and quick dungeon runs. So often not half of those (though other CL boosters may help them). If you blow a combat round or even a buff round you need to weigh it against other options and the net gain is minimal or it may even be worse than other free options.

It depends on what kind of boost you have, of course. The Bead of Karma in particular is useful mostly for buffs, true. It works pretty well for ambushes, boss fights and scry & die tactics, too.
With proper scouting it's often possible to get a few minutes for shorter buffs before a hard fight and still have time left over to benefit from the CL increase during battle.

Also, a lot of it depends on your DM and the general gaming style at your table. If you get hit with dispel effects often that +4 CL means a 20% decreased chance to lose your buffs, which is pretty big all on its own especially in situations where you rely on that Death Ward, Freedom of Movement or Protection from Evil to keep you alive.

And almost all CL increases stack with each other, potentially making you immune to dispel and turning your own dispels into a sure thing among all the other benefits.
As a druid, +4 CL means a +1 to your spell DCs from Owl's Wisdom, +2 AC from Barkskin and Halo of Sand, +1 to hit and damage on every one of your natural weapons (and your animal companions), more attacks for spells like Kelpstrand and Splinterbolt, higher energy resistance from Resist Energy... and probably a lot of other things i don't remember right now.
They also help with spells like Poison or Telekinesis that directly benefit from increased CL in unusual ways.

So yeah, i like CL increases. :smallbiggrin:
They add to a lot of little things with the occassional big boost thrown in, so they're worth the price imo.

[eggynack]

Don't forget giant vermin. A CL boost of +4 there always increases the size category by at least one, and later on by two. The difference between summoning huge vermin and colossal vermin is a pretty massive one.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Control Winds is my favorite Anti-Airship spell. Even when most Airships are Colossal, it gives a particular difficulty in navigating and flying in a Windstorm and it only gets worse beyond that.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, unequaled at destroying stuff...but even discounting the people that are dying with a building collapsed on top of them, creatures in the spell area have to make a fortitude save or suffer the environmental effects of a tornado:

Sympathetic vibration would like a word.