Beloved of Valarion... Issues...

[Desiani]

The character in question is a male to female Transgender. I gave the OK because over the course of the game she came to terms with the contract made to Valarian.

The issue I am confused with is that... She had sex with her unicorn and I don't know how to rule it. The situation is that BBEG is actually one of the party members as this is a 'who dun it' campaign. The Beloved as well as the unicorn was dominated and were told to do this.

The BOED specifically states that if you break a vow, even under charmed, you lose access to it. Since Vow of Chastity is a requirement of Beloved I don't know if she loses the class abilities or the unicorn since both of them violated each other. The beloved is level 10 Beloved... so this is why I confused as well.

[animewatcha]

If I remember correctly, nearly all the Vows ( dunno why not for poverty, but that's WOTC for ya ). There should be a clause in the feat that pretty much a 'yada yada if forced to do it, atonement'.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, first, merely being charmed shouldn't have done that.

Beyond that, though, presumably she's remorseful? An atonement should take care of that since she didn't violate the vow willingly.

Nothing happens to the unicorn; it didn't have the vow. It doesn't disappear (it was called, not summoned), and can probably rejoin the Beloved as soon as she atones.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The character in question is a male to female Transgender. I gave the OK because over the course of the game she came to terms with the contract made to Valarian.

The issue I am confused with is that... She had sex with her unicorn and I don't know how to rule it. The situation is that BBEG is actually one of the party members as this is a 'who dun it' campaign. The Beloved as well as the unicorn was Charmed and were told to do this.

The BOED specifically states that if you break a vow, even under charmed, you lose access to it. Since Vow of Chastity is a requirement of Beloved I don't know if she loses the class abilities or the unicorn since both of them violated each other. The beloved is level 10 Beloved...,so this is why I confused as well.

:smallconfused::smalleek:

....... I'm just gonna stick to the relevant rules for the situation.

Yes, the BoV loses the benefits of her vow but can atone since she didn't violate it willingly. That being the case, she also loses all class features of the class since it requires the vow feat.

Of note, however, are the facts that a charm spell shouldn't have been able to force the BoV to take the suggested action, breaking her vow should certainly count as doing something harmful to herself, and if it wasn't charm monster then it shouldn't have affected the unicorn at all.

[AnonymousPepper]

Completely as a side note, your BBEG is, no other way to put it, effed in the head. Or at least... overly-creative. And also off by rules, as Charm wouldn't do it unless she at least secretly wanted to, and would need to be Charm Animal and have the same effect to work on the unicorn, 'else it'd have to be Dominate Person/Monster or Mind Rape or similar.

Anyway, back on topic... yeah, she loses access to all class features.

Fortunately for her, since it was under duress, she can Atone for it, and it won't cost her or the caster any XP/GP/etc. She just has to find a magic user capable of casting it - or a magic item crafter capable of making a scroll of it, if it comes to that.

As DM, I'd say if you wanted to, you could have the unicorn voluntarily stay with her if you wanted to lessen the impact.

But she indisputably loses all class features until she atones. It's just that since it wasn't voluntary, it's not a big deal; view the Atonement as just filling out the relevant paperwork, much to the shock of some low-level celestial bureaucrat upstairs perhaps.

Now if she'd WILLINGLY done it, it'd require some expenditure on the part of the caster, and the caster would probably give an atonement quest as per the spell as well.

[Vattic]

She had sex with her unicorn

WAT. :smalleek:

I sincerely hope that you didn't force this as a GM. Holy mother of god that would be awful.

[AnonymousPepper]

WAT. :smalleek:

I sincerely hope that you didn't force this as a GM. Holy mother of god that would be awful.

...that, though. But no smalleek about it. :eek:

I'm gonna need Mind Rape to get that out of my head.

[Coidzor]

If you don't know how to adjudicate it, why on earth did you have the character **** a unicorn?

Though, really, don't have characters **** unicorns.

[INoKnowNames]

What the hell? Are you playing Sailor Moon or something?!

Ahem. That aside,

A) Charm makes people friends. Not **** buddies. You'd need Dominate Person / Monster for that.

And B, as mentioned) Most classes and feats in that book allow for an atonement when forced.

But yeah, Sailor Moon Says Don't **** Unicorns, and that means you!

[Desiani]

Sorry for the confusion. Yes it was Dominate. I always confuse the two because I play a lot of MMOs. D:

I thank you all for letting me know about the class feature loss, the cleric in the group will be relieved no XP loss with happen! ^^

In regards to why did I let it happen. If it had been a normal bad guy that dominated, I wouldn't have did that. The group I run/play with has this thing with the Book of Erotic Fantasy. It's always in use.. The groups face is a Kundala. As it's always being used, unfortunately beastiality is as well. The group normally doesn't get THIS creative so I've never had to rule on this before :o

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, if you bring the book to the table and everyone agrees....

That said, I am not sure you lose your class features. The only classes you actually lose the features of when you no longer qualify for them are the classes in one complete warrior book. You cannot LEVEL in said classes, but you maintain all class features unless the class has a clause in it about losing them (AL the cleric losing spells if you change alignment to much, or a paladin falling)

[Psyren]

Generally, the vows can be broken involuntarily (e.g. under magical compulsion) and generally, you lose them in that case but can still atone and get them back. If you break them willingly you're screwed.

I'll also point out that nonconsensual bestiality is shaky ground for any game regardless of whether BoEF is in play or not.

[(Un)Inspired]

What the hell? Are you playing Sailor Moon or something?!

People have sex with horses in Sailor Moon?

[Psyren]

People have sex with horses in Sailor Moon?

I think it's a Chibiusa/Pegasus reference.

...At least, that's what my friend, who is a girl and watches the show while I'm busy outside pumping iron told me.

...Why are you looking at me like that?

[(Un)Inspired]

I think it's a Chibiusa/Pegasus reference.

...At least, that's what my friend, who is a girl and watches the show while I'm busy outside pumping iron told me.

...Why are you looking at me like that?

Hahaha. I don't know what that is but I'm gonna avoid googling Chibiusa/Pegasus for fear that I won't be able to unsee whatever it is.

Sometimes when you stare into the google, the google stares back at you.

[Sith_Happens]

But she indisputably loses all class features until she atones.

Very disputably, actually:


That said, I am not sure you lose your class features. The only classes you actually lose the features of when you no longer qualify for them are the classes in one complete warrior book. You cannot LEVEL in said classes, but you maintain all class features unless the class has a clause in it about losing them (AL the cleric losing spells if you change alignment to much, or a paladin falling)

[Renen]

Hahaha. I don't know what that is but I'm gonna avoid googling Chibiusa/Pegasus for fear that I won't be able to unsee whatever it is.

Sometimes when you stare into the google, the google stares back at you.

Well actually, its not as scary as it sounds... its basically the same way dragons have kids... transform into an anatomically correct human and off you go. Same for the pegasus... xept if i remember right nothing actually happened...

My umm... sister told me... yehh... Back me up here Psyren...

[Psyren]

Well actually, its not as scary as it sounds... its basically the same way dragons have kids... transform into an anatomically correct human and off you go. Same for the pegasus... xept if i remember right nothing actually happened...

My umm... sister told me... yehh... Back me up here Psyren...

Why are you addressing me, person with whom I share no interests?
:shiftyeyes:

[(Un)Inspired]

Well actually, its not as scary as it sounds... its basically the same way dragons have kids... transform into an anatomically correct human and off you go. Same for the pegasus... xept if i remember right nothing actually happened...

My umm... sister told me... yehh... Back me up here Psyren...

Wait, so one of the characters sleeps with a horse in a human body? Does it still have the mind of a horse when they... Naked handshake each other?

[Renen]

Well, i was describing the pegasus. I am not sure the unicorn can do the transformation, but maybe?
And anyways, let me remind you that unicorns doesnt have "mind of a horse".

The unicorn is as smart as an average person, and EASILY surpasses all but the rarest of persons in charisma and wisdom. His mental stats are Int 10, Wis 21, Cha 24. Unicorns also speak TWO languages! So dont you dare offend my unicorns.

Erm i mean... girls would know more about this than me...

[Sith_Happens]

Wait, so one of the characters sleeps with a horse in a human body? Does it still have the mind of a horse when they... Naked handshake each other?

No, one of the characters develops a crush on a human trapped in an alicorn body, except he can change back under certain circumstances, it's kind of weird and I'm working off of secondary sources here (for real) so I might not have it right. And he maybe likes her back, but they definitely never do anything. Oh, and there's time travel involved.

[AnonymousPepper]

Aaaaaanyway...

Also, okay, so it's debatable about class features then. Surprised that's not actually global RAW, that's always how I'd heard it. Not seeing any contrary rulings though, so it would seem to me like that rule would then apply elsewhere unless it says it's only for those classes.

[Sith_Happens]

Aaaaaanyway...

Also, okay, so it's debatable about class features then. Surprised that's not actually global RAW, that's always how I'd heard it. Not seeing any contrary rulings though, so it would seem to me like that rule would then apply elsewhere unless it says it's only for those classes.

Applying the rule globally causes a bug commonly known as Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple, in which certain prestige class features disqualify you from the class due to it having a negative prerequisite, in which case you no longer have the feature, which means you qualify for the class again, which means you get the feature back, which disqualifies you from the class...

[AnonymousPepper]

Applying the rule globally causes a bug commonly known as Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple, in which certain prestige class features disqualify you from the class due to it having a negative prerequisite, in which case you no longer have the feature, which means you qualify for the class again, which means you get the feature back, which disqualifies you from the class...

Well, in that case you'd just Rule Zero out the Negative Space Wedgie.

It seems to me though that it works better if you cause class feature loss, though, or else you'd have things like Incantatrixes DCFSing away their Iron Will feat tax (or God help us, IotSFVs or Archmages doing the same) with no penalty whatsoever.

[Sith_Happens]

Well, in that case you'd just Rule Zero out the Negative Space Wedgie.

It seems to me though that it works better if you cause class feature loss, though, or else you'd have things like Incantatrixes DCFSing away their Iron Will feat tax (or God help us, IotSFVs or Archmages doing the same) with no penalty whatsoever.

I don't know about you, but I don't see "Broken with DCFS" as sufficient grounds for a houserule.:smalltongue:

[Jeff the Green]

I don't know about you, but I don't see "Broken with DCFS" as sufficient grounds for a houserule.:smalltongue:

What, you mean you don't ban elves, fighters, or heroics? I will never understand the cheese-tolerance of some people on this board.

[AnonymousPepper]

I don't know about you, but I don't see "Broken with DCFS" as sufficient grounds for a houserule.:smalltongue:

That's not the point I'm making - the point I am making is that it makes feat and skill prereqs irrelevant.

Seems to me like we're both looking at the same set of rather sparse RAW and pulling different RAI out of it, though. And there's nothing wrong with that.

To me, the way I see it, it's just a matter of, would I rather break one underused class that I can fix on an individual basis, or would I rather leave in the unpleasant implication that you could just retrain away your prerequisites with no complications?

[Sith_Happens]

That's not the point I'm making - the point I am making is that it makes feat and skill prereqs irrelevant.

Seems to me like we're both looking at the same set of rather sparse RAW and pulling different RAI out of it, though. And there's nothing wrong with that.

To me, the way I see it, it's just a matter of, would I rather break one underused class that I can fix on an individual basis, or would I rather leave in the unpleasant implication that you could just retrain away your prerequisites with no complications?

DCFS is the only method of reselecting feats that for sure doesn't care whether the old feat was a prerequisite for anything. Psychic Reformation arguably cares and retraining explicitly cares.

Also, even you do eventually replace your feat and skill prerequisites, they were still relevant in that you were stuck with them for as many character levels as it took before reaching the last prestige class level you wanted.

[Jeff the Green]

Besides that, a lot of prerequisites that might be abandoned are obnoxious feat/level taxes like the aforementioned Iron Will or Magelord's or Fochlucan Lyrist's *gag* evasion. At the sort of optimization levels where you might obviate them they add nothing to the game and aren't even very constraining.

[animewatcha]

Hahaha. I don't know what that is but I'm gonna avoid googling Chibiusa/Pegasus for fear that I won't be able to unsee whatever it is.

Sometimes when you stare into the google, the google stares back at you.

Character Pegasus, flying horse that needs to be babysat that arc ( hiding from the baddies ).

Chibiusa, Elementary school child that is magically babysitting Pegasus ( makes more sense in the story ).

[INoKnowNames]

After a hard day trying to fix my car, this was the perfect thread to see again. The amount of :smalleek: is hilarious. Especially since I caused some of it! :smallamused:


Sorry for the confusion. Yes it was Dominate. I always confuse the two because I play a lot of MMOs. D:

Given this is what Domination leads to in this game, I wonder what kind of Mmos you are playing.


The group I run/play with has this thing with the Book of Erotic Fantasy. It's always in use.

It is -always- the book of Erotic Fantasy. It's never Nymphology, or Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, or even Chainmail Bikinis. Nope; always Erotic Fantasy.

... why were so many books written on this subject anyway?


That said, I am not sure you lose your class features. The only classes you actually lose the features of when you no longer qualify for them are the classes in one complete warrior book.

Actually, this is one of the few books that -does- include a mark about that. Any character with a class in the Book of Exalted Deeds who commits an evil act loses their class features until they can atone.

Strangely enough, no text about losing feat prerequisites due to needing to atone for that, but then again I don't think that book's writers considered the idea of you being forced to **** your own nature companion... not exactly something that comes up in the standard sect of "Do good". Maybe a new edition to the book, me thinks...


I'll also point out that nonconsensual bestiality is shaky ground for any game regardless of whether BoEF is in play or not.

... I almost want to sig this. Just because every time I look down, even I still say What. Then I laugh, and I start coughing...

[Solaris]

It is -always- the book of Erotic Fantasy. It's never Nymphology, or Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, or even Chainmail Bikinis. Nope; always Erotic Fantasy.

... why were so many books written on this subject anyway?

For the same reason people write so many books on fantasy.
For... the exact same reason.

[Twilightwyrm]

...that, though. But no smalleek about it. :eek:

I'm gonna need Mind Rape to get that out of my head.

For you and all the adventurers out there that have been at the mercy of sights that should not have been seen and expiriences that should not be experiences, I present the counterpart to Mindrape: Brain Bleach [Good]! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrainBleach)

[Jack_Simth]

Very disputably, actually:
Yeah. The 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide had a blurb in the PrC header about losing essentially all class features from a PrC if you lose the requirements. That blurb was removed in the transition to the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide. Two of the earliest 3.5 books (both rife with various editing errors - mostly text vs. table stuff, but occasionally references to skills that were removed or renamed in the 3.0->3.5 transition) have a word-for-word copy of the blurb from the 3.0 DMG.

I'm of the opinion that the blurbs found in those two books are simply copy/paste errors, that the DMG is the primary source for PrC mechanics, and that as a result these that your Blackguard does not, in fact, lose his Dark Blessing when hit with Ray of Enfeeblement... nor does the Dragon Disciple go all quantum at level ten.

Other people disagree. Some say the rule only applies to PrC's from those two books, some say that the rules from those two books apply to all PrC's. Go with what works at your gaming table.

As to the specific situation? Atonement. Domination effects like that are one of those areas where the spell shouldn't even cost XP.

[Desiani]

Given this is what Domination leads to in this game, I wonder what kind of Mmos you are playing.

It's because in the MMos I have played Charm was the word used when you got a new pet as a hunter class :p

[illyahr]

Loses the Vow but keeps all the class features. Unicorn mount only leaves if the Beloved willingly breaks her vow. She can't progress as a Beloved anymore, but that doesn't matter since she capped it anyway.

[Sith_Happens]

Loses the Vow but keeps all the class features. Unicorn mount only leaves if the Beloved willingly breaks her vow. She can't progress as a Beloved anymore, but that doesn't matter since she capped it anyway.

Speaking of which, you're going to want to houserule a way for her to replace her unicorn if it's killed. By RAW she has to gain another Beloved level, which is currently impossible without getting level drained or raised from the dead first.

[Renen]

Cant you just raise the pony from the dead instead? If worried about level loss, use wish in some way. Theres either a specific way a wish can negate such level loss, or maybe wish for it to count as if it died "this round" and then hit it with psionic revivify (I think I got that right)

[Sith_Happens]

Cant you just raise the pony from the dead instead? If worried about level loss, use wish in some way. Theres either a specific way a wish can negate such level loss, or maybe wish for it to count as if it died "this round" and then hit it with psionic revivify (I think I got that right)

Level loss due to coming back from the dead explicitly cannot be reversed or circumvented by any mortal magic, even Wish.

[Renen]

Cant be reversed right? Ok.

1) I wish that this dead Unicorn over here counted as having died a second ago.
2) Hey psion buddy, fire up that Psionic Revivify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm)
3) ???
4) You have your unicorn back

Or I think there's a few ways to revive someone for a very very short time, that is useless on its own, but works wonders with revivify since the person is again treated as having died just now. But i cant remember what those ways are... im sure i read em somewhere...

[Jeff the Green]

Cant be reversed right? Ok.

1) I wish that this dead Unicorn over here counted as having died a second ago.
2) Hey psion buddy, fire up that Psionic Revivify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm)
3) ???
4) You have your unicorn back

Or I think there's a few ways to revive someone for a very very short time, that is useless on its own, but works wonders with revivify since the person is again treated as having died just now. But i cant remember what those ways are... im sure i read em somewhere...

The spell you're thinking of is revenance. It too has a time limit, but a much more mild one.

There's also something in the Rules of the Game articles (so not actually the rules of the game) saying that familiars could be raised with raise dead with no ill effects. As a DM I'd allow a Beloved to do this.

[Petrocorus]

I think it's a Chibiusa/Pegasus reference.

...At least, that's what my friend, who is a girl and watches the show while I'm busy outside pumping iron told me.

...Why are you looking at me like that?
Yes, of course, we totally believe you.


The character in question is a male to female Transgender. I gave the OK because over the course of the game she came to terms with the contract made to Valarian.

Out of curiosity, how did you handle gender transition rule-wise? PAO? Wish? Phylactery of Change?


Besides that, a lot of prerequisites that might be abandoned are obnoxious feat/level taxes like the aforementioned Iron Will or Magelord's or Fochlucan Lyrist's *gag* evasion.
All Hail the Shadow template and the LA buy off!

On topic, i don't know if this is Raw, but i would have her lose the feat and the benefit of BoV class features until Atonement.

[atemu1234]

Since magical compulsion, I'd say atone. If not allowed, do the following process-
1. Call DM a jerk.
2. Ask again.

[Desiani]

Yes, of course, we totally believe you.


Out of curiosity, how did you handle gender transition rule-wise? PAO? Wish? Phylactery of...

The players background had a small blurb about unicorns, and his academic study turned obsession of them. The group met a tricky genie that "sent them to paradise." In essence they were going to be sent to they abyss but Valarian intervened to his/her plane of existence.

The negotiation to return peacefully was that the man obsessed with unicorns would become 'gifted/cursed' to become a guardian of Unicorns in the region he stayed in.

I let the gender bit slip by because over the course of the 10 levels he slowly changed from male to female and in between until level 10 he took a -10 social penalty to unicorns that went up by 2 until it was a plus 0 at level 5. This was the in game mechanic gimmick I used to symbolize that while Unicorns recognized him as their guardian... They had to grow used to the soul. At level 5 he was woman enough for unicorns not to notice his being ex-male, but he had to adjust because the party was unaware of that part of the contract. :p

[The Insanity]

Since magical compulsion, I'd say atone. If not allowed, do the following process-
1. Call DM a jerk.
2. Ask again.
He's supposed to call himself a jerk?

[Desiani]

He's supposed to call himself a jerk?

Good thing I wasn't the one who did it. :o The BBEG player in the party did! :D