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MalcolmReynolds
2014-12-10, 11:57 PM
Hi Playground

I'm throwing setting ideas around, specifically the sentient races that inhabit the setting (both monster and pc), and have come across an issue i would like to solve.

i am having issues coming up with ideas for races that arent on the beefcake end of the spectrum (lets say the spectrum is muscle bound doesnt affraid of anything - to - not necesarrilly physically imposing, but has something else that makes it scream 'THIS IS AWESOME').

ImNotTrevor (a poster) has provided a short list of qualities that act as an inconclusive starting point for this type of race:
-Lithe
-Agile
-Subtle
-Measured
-Intellectual force > Physical force
-Charm
-Wits

so, do you have any ideas? races pre made? mythical legends to be plundered?

for reference, elves, halflings and gnomes have already been discussed, lets look away from the standard dnd races (3.5) for the purpose of discussion.

edit : refining question/discussion prompts to prevent conflict or topic derailing.

Geostationary
2014-12-11, 01:21 AM
What is typifying races as masculine/feminine meant to achieve? What do you even mean by masculine and feminine? You've already implied masculine = "testosterone fueled awesome McCoolthing" and feminine = literally females/matriarchal, and down this path sexism lies.

AttilaTheGeek
2014-12-11, 01:36 AM
Why have a gender binary at all? Plenty of species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#Biology) have more than two genders or sexes, and many reproduce asexually (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual_reproduction). Having two sexes A and B in which reproduction occurs between A and B to produce a child that usually (but not always (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex)) fits into one of the two is actually totally arbitrary. You could have a species with, for example, three sexes A, B, and C where reproduction occurs between two of the sexes to give birth to the third. If you really want your game to be about the politics of sexism, such a race would certainly make things more interesting, but given that you're already trying to attach stereotypical masculine and feminine traits to fantasy races, such a game might not be what you're looking for.

jaydubs
2014-12-11, 01:47 AM
Some mythical races that are often thought of as feminine:

-Harpies
-Naga
-Mermaids
-Fey
-Certain anthropomorphic animals: various cats, foxes, probably some others that aren't coming to mind.

MalcolmReynolds
2014-12-11, 02:01 AM
im sorry, i should have explained this a little better.

In short, im looking for something that the stereotypical female would be drawn to to play.

i am aware that this is a touchy topic and it could be easy to drop into sexism, but i am trying to avoid that. i feel that you have straw manned me a little with the awesome vs matriarch thing, but i will reiterate that i DONT agree with that (capital is emphasis, not yelling).

The struggle i am facing is as follows. i am male myself, and thus find it a lot easier to create races/species that I, from a male perspective, would be more drawn to play (dwarfs and orcs for example, while they can be male or female, embody generally more masculine traits.). however, i have difficulty trying to create / find /make a spin on something so that the race embodies feminine traits. the example for a more feminine race would be elves. again, can be male or female, but i would argue that the stereotypical elf is more feminine than masculine.

i also realize it isn't binary, im more looking on a sliding scale.

i brought up the example of the matriarchy (drow) as something i want to avoid, as i dont think the answer to 'how do i make/find a feminine race' should be 'make them all/the important ones female' (there are exceptions to this, but you get my point. dont straw man me here).

I also do not want the entire game to be dominated by the politics of sex, i want to balance out the world so that there is adequate player choice, and not pidgeon holing people.

hopefully that has cleared stuff up

And thankyou jaydubs, those might be some things to look into. i do like the goblins comic, so nagas are actually a pretty good idea i reckon

Vitruviansquid
2014-12-11, 02:21 AM
I'm not sure what you're asking for... so dwarves should have the masculine traits of being good at axe fighting and primogeniture, and then elves should have the feminine qualities of added skill at crocheting and looking distractedly off into the distance, thinking about the men who are at war?

No no no. Whenever I have had female players in my games, they all tell me they want one thing - to have female characters who can do the exact same things male characters do.

AttilaTheGeek
2014-12-11, 02:23 AM
im sorry, i should have explained this a little better.

In short, im looking for something that the stereotypical female would be drawn to to play.

(snip)...i am male myself, and thus find it a lot easier to create races/species that I, from a male perspective, would be more drawn to play (dwarfs and orcs for example, while they can be male or female, embody generally more masculine traits.). however, i have difficulty trying to create / find /make a spin on something so that the race embodies feminine traits.

So, if I understand correctly, the basic argument behind your question is this.
Premise: Some races are more masculine or feminine than others.
I am a man, and I prefer to play more masculine races.
The stereotypical female will prefer to play a more feminine race.
How can I create a more feminine race?

It is this third point that I take issue with. (I also don't completely agree with your premise that races are masculine or feminine, but I'll assume that it's true.) While the fact that you, a man, prefer to play more masculine races might seem to imply that a woman might want to play more feminine races, that's not actually valid logic. It is near-impossible to say that most men prefer masculine races, and even if you did show that, it would be difficult to show that the same holds true for women.

I, personally, am I man who likes playing elves. Does that make me any less of a man? Absolutely not. I know a girl who thinks dwarves are the coolest; does that make her less of a woman? Of course not! I recognize that anecdotes are the opposite of data, but these are just intended as examples to show that your entire argument is invalid. I don't think that you need to, or even should, create specifically feminine races to appeal to female players. I think that if you create interesting races, which are not obligated to even follow our gender binary, then women will want to play them just as much as men.

Zrak
2014-12-11, 02:26 AM
Dwarves are obsessed with jewelry and ornate hairstyles while Elves sleep in the woods and worship a hardcore warrior god who cut out another god's eye for, like, no reason. Just think about that.

ImNotTrevor
2014-12-11, 02:57 AM
{scrubbed}

When I see "Feminine" as a lover and great respector of women, I think the following:
Lithe
Agile
Subtle
Measured
Intellectual force > Physical force
Charm
Wits

Does that mean a male can't be and do those things? Nope.

If you are associating "Being Feminine" as automatically being a bad thing or making you less masculine, it is YOU who has the sexist view.

As for OP, you are looking for non-beefcake races. They need to be COOL. But not because they break walls with their faces and scream a lot.

They are naturally prone to a more measured and graceful approach. I would think of Halflings, Elves, and Gnomes as being Feminine as you interpret it. Make them skilled at being quietly awesome. Casting illusions, being sneaky, dexterity, intelligence, wisdom, or charisma bonuses rather than strength and constitution.

{scrubbed}

Yes, elves can be fighters and barbarians and can be masculine and kill the thing with an axe. But that isn't exactly their usual style.

Dwarves can be wizards and bards and rogues and take subtle approaches. Still somewhat counter to their archetype.

{scrubbed}

jaydubs
2014-12-11, 03:00 AM
I think there's some miscommunication going on here. The OP isn't saying "guys should play X, girls should play Y." He's saying "I like to play X, help me come up with some ideas that will appeal to people who like to play Y." Masculine and feminine are just shorthand, since they're general concepts most of us are familiar with.

And if you're a man, a woman, something in between, a genetically enhanced dolphin, or even an artificial intelligence that happens to prefer playing races that fit more traditionally feminine characteristics, what are some concepts that you would like to see in a campaign setting?

MalcolmReynolds
2014-12-11, 03:22 AM
*sigh* alright. here we go

@Vitruviansquid

No. just no. at no point did i suggest feminine qualities are crocheting or being distracted. you are not trying to be constructive at all, and i am quite frankly insulted. i also at no point suggested female PLAYERS should do anything less than anyone else. if youre just going to be disruptive, please leave. if you will actually be constructive, we can talk.


@ attilla the greek

yes, the argument you have presented more or less is what i am going for. the key word, and perhaps now that i look at it, it might be wrong to use, is 'stereotypical' in point 3. now, i am not trying to dictate who should play what, far from it. what i am trying to do is give people the option to do what they want.

also, i accept your points, but i dont believe my argument is invalid. Whether or not you agree that it is required, i want there to be variety and options for people.


@Zrak

but when you think of a fantasy dwarf, or ask someone to think of a dwarf, how often do you come up with bearded dude in fancy armor a la gimli or durkon?


@ImNotTrevor

Thankyou. thankyou very much, you have explained what i am looking for far better than i was.

one of the issues though, i just cant stand halflings and gnomes. my personal preference. as a whole, along with dwarves, they all just come down to 'short dudes' with slightly different flavour. hence why i'm asking for other ideas.

and youre right, never should have started with 'feminine'

@jaydubs

again, thankyou.

Vitruviansquid
2014-12-11, 03:43 AM
No no no. Whenever I have had female players in my games, they all tell me they want one thing - to have female characters who can do the exact same things male characters do.

You're trying to solve a problem which does not exist with a method that is likely to create a new problem that is not there before. Just give your female players the recognizable core races instead of creating something outlandish, which can backfire in all the the hundreds of ways it tends to.

Don't say I don't love you.

banthesun
2014-12-11, 04:09 AM
The struggle i am facing is as follows. i am male myself, and thus find it a lot easier to create races/species that I, from a male perspective, would be more drawn to play (dwarfs and orcs for example, while they can be male or female, embody generally more masculine traits.). however, i have difficulty trying to create / find /make a spin on something so that the race embodies feminine traits. the example for a more feminine race would be elves. again, can be male or female, but i would argue that the stereotypical elf is more feminine than masculine.

Could you clear something up for me here; you say you are drawn to play masculine races, but when you do play them, do you ever play female characters of these races? If so, do you treat their race as being a more important trait than their gender?

Zrak
2014-12-11, 04:37 AM
@Zrak

but when you think of a fantasy dwarf, or ask someone to think of a dwarf, how often do you come up with bearded dude in fancy armor a la gimli or durkon?

Yeah, I generally think of dwarves as a culture that spends a lot of time on their hair and a lot of money on their outfits.

DoomHat
2014-12-11, 05:30 AM
This actually beings to mind an interesting question about the idea of a race with extreme sexual dimorphism.
What if the male and female representatives of a race were so vastly different they have mechanical benefits and detriments completely distinct from each other.

What if there was a common misconception that there are no female orcs because an orcish female is actually something like a wood nymph? What if there's no such thing as a female dwarf or a male elf because they're actually the same race?

Don't be silly, only girls have wings. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmJNzi7TcTE)

Aedilred
2014-12-11, 05:52 AM
I'm going to ask, OP, did you come up with this project because you've found girls are generally less interested in playing characters you (or they) regard as stereotypically masculine, or is it a more general "how can we get more girls into gaming?" thing?

The former is an intriguing idea; it would seem to fit with analyses I've read before about how traditional dungeon-bashing roleplaying is ripe with Freudian subtext (with which I don't entirely agree, but can sort of see the point) but is something I haven't really seen anyone try to address previously. This isn't necessarily the right way, but it's an interesting approach.

If it's the latter, the reasons for the disproportionate number of male to female roleplayers are so myriad and so unrelated to the actual details of gaming I think it's probably looking in the wrong place for the answer. It's also something that seems to be changing.

ImNotTrevor
2014-12-11, 06:58 AM
See, man? You brought Gender into it amd everyone put their blinders on and won't look at it in some other way.

Dude explained himself poorly. This is what he wants this:
A MALE and I mean seriously MALE individual will usually play a meathead that makes pukes get wrekt and kills all the things. For instance, I have gotten a football player to join my shenanigans before. That is pretty much what he went for. Dwarf Fighter, if I remember right. He was a murder machine the whole time.
OP wants to make races with the opposite flavor.

And yes, a Female dwarf is probably more masculine than a male Elf. Some texts describe female dwarves as being just as beardly as the males. Elves are traditionally portrayed as beings of great beauty and grace.


{scrubbed}

Rion
2014-12-11, 07:20 AM
I don't know if I'm able to provide what you ask for, but I will try.
The way I see it other people are focusing too much on gender, so as a male man who is male, but have no particular interest in playing Gruff Lumberjack McScotchForBreakfast-HugeArms, may I suggest the Drakken of Endless Legend? You have already mentioned Endless Legend as inspiration for several races, and one of my favourite races in it seems a good deal more "feminine", without that being used in the "Crochet and Romance novels"-way.

The fact that the Drakken are basically "Space Dragonborn in a Medieval World" is unimportant, I'm more thinking about this aspect of them:
"An ancient and venerable race, the drakes and dragons of the Drakken prize lore, history, and wisdom above all things.
Few in number but exceedingly powerful, they do not seek war but rather relationships, information, and knowledge. Faction histories, artefacts, and ruins are highly prized by the Drakken while wealth, military power, and advanced technology are viewed as insignificant."

Faction Specialties:
"Diplomatic Pressure: Masters of statecraft, this people can force Peace, Truce, or even and Alliance on other players due to their wisdom, persuasion, and prestige.

Advanced Diarchy: Experienced at the necessary negotiation and discussion that takes place within a government, this faction can more rapidly put complex Empire Plans into motion.

Endless Excavation: Hereditary keepers of Endless artifacts and knowledge, no other peoples are so adept at unearthing secrets and mysteries from ancient sites.

Well Connected: Being and ancient race with ties to all the other peoples of Auriga, this empire knows the location of every other race's capital."

http://endless-legend.wikia.com/wiki/Drakken

MalcolmReynolds
2014-12-11, 08:36 AM
@Aedilred

honestly? i was just riffing a setting. i had no motive until i looked at the races id made/put together, and realized i had more trouble coming up with non-beefcake races. eg. from the mass effect universe, i couldnt have come up with the Hanar, and even something like hte elcor would have been difficult. it bugged me, and so i sought conversation.

@ I'mNotTrevor

i do agree i need to change the request. i'm going to assume you dont mind me nabbing the list you mentioned in your earlier post, if you do i will change it back.

So can people give examples, ideas, and discuss concepts for races / species for both player characters and enemy monsters, that are cool not because they are macho beefcakes that dont afraid of anything, but are awesome or cool or other adjectives because of something other, or else. some other means.

poster ImNotTrevor gave a short list of potential qualities which may work as a guide for this type of thing:
-Lithe
-Agile
-Subtle
-Measured
-Intellectual force > Physical force
-Charm
-Wits

Any and all ideas are welcome, so long as they are constructive.

@Roin

i have considered the Drakken, and i actually love kobolds/warhammer lizardmen (eg. skinks included)/the draken (played a game, forcing people to be friendly is pretty great). i was a little unsure, but now i'm strongly considering it. they really do fit the bill i reckon, as well as adding something new

one of the idea riffs i had was a cult around a fire elemental (reptilian race, cold blooded, fire provides warmth allows them to act more, there is something there). i dunno what people think.

Nargrakhan
2014-12-11, 09:15 AM
At the risk of getting burned... I live with some ladies who are embarrassingly feminine under the chauvinistic stereotypical definition. No I'm not here to argue sexist values I may or may not have, because this is totally not the thread I would seek counseling or criticism from, so please don't attempt to converse with me on that. Being said, here are my suggestions:

#1: Consider using those "furry" races that look cute under the right description. Things like the Catfolk definitely come to mind. When in doubt, just throw adorable animal ears on a human.

#2: The angst goth thing is always an in thing as far as I can tell, so looking into Dhampyrs might work. I got my then-girlfriend, now-wife into gaming using this.

#3: Tiny races like Pixies and Sprites are worth a look, but might be challenging to implement because of the despairing size difference.

#4: Animal shapeshifter. Not strictly werebeasts (though those are popular), but more-so of pointing out the druid class.
I once participated in this "feminine" RPG called Golden Sky Stories, in which the entire premise is built around being neighborhood animals that could shift into humanoid children (makes sense in context). I played a puppy and had damn fun. Not all shapeshifters have to be snarling rabid wolves and whatnot.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-12-11, 09:31 AM
Agreed with an earlier poster that there's a spot of miscommunication going on here. Not sure you really need to focus overly much on putting stuff in to ensure expanded audience appeal, though. If you have solid and diverse enough ideas, everyone will find something to like in there.

Anyway. A few suggestions to consider, on top of those already mentioned previously.

Some kind of bird race. Not modeled after an eagle, vulture, falcon or the like, but maybe something like a finch or a blue jay?

Dryads. Not really sure how to make them a playable race, though. Perhaps they sleep by turning into a tree to rejuvenate themselves? Maybe they take over some of the gnome traits, or have similar ones?

Humans. Over half of the humans born are female. Clearly, this is a feminine species in general.

Anthropormorphic animals. Particularly ones that wind up being smaller than humans. Just pick an animal that has wide appeal and you like enough, and you're set. Kittenfolk bards could put on cutesy plays that leave their audiences paralyzed with cuteness overload! But it could work with things like geckos, deer,

Kitten Champion
2014-12-11, 09:50 AM
There are always Changelings, who lack obvious muscle definition, are generally unimposing, and have softer facial features.

SoulSalvage
2014-12-11, 09:57 AM
Regarding the 'split gender/race' idea someone had earlier, it actually made me think of bees. You could make a race of bee humanoids. Agile, fast, and incredibly charismatic (in terms of females, anyways).

The males would be agile warriors, probably using bows with an increased dex/con, and decreased wis. The females would be incredibly charismatic (queen bee commanding her hive style), with increased dex/cha and decreased str. Just an idea I had while looking over the thread.

Eldan
2014-12-11, 10:00 AM
I'd say a Queen Bee humanoid would be a size category larger than the rest of her race, basically immobile and constantly drugging everyone else so they love her.

Faily
2014-12-11, 10:21 AM
Plenty of options out there that don't require inventing something new.

Sathoni (Fantasy Flight Games' Dragonstar-setting): Humanoid-plants. Kinda like dryads, but not tied down to a specific tree. Basically, I recommend giving a look at Races of the Galaxy for the Dragonstar-setting, as it has very interesting options (my favorite must be the sentient gelatinous cube-thing).

Spirit Folk (Oriental Adventures and Forgotten Realms): Somewhere between elf and fey.

Nezumi/Ratling (Oriental Adventures): Rat-people. Might fall under cute for some?

Naga (Rokugan variant): Civilized and good-aligned snake-people, where the females have the special ability of being able to shed their tail and grow human-legs.

Jade Dragons and Hungry Ghosts (Green Ronin publishing) have some interesting oriental-flavored monsters, where some can be repurposed as player races.

DoomHat
2014-12-11, 10:22 AM
Regarding the 'split gender/race' idea someone had earlier, it actually made me think of bees. You could make a race of bee humanoids. Agile, fast, and incredibly charismatic (in terms of females, anyways).

The males would be agile warriors, probably using bows with an increased dex/con, and decreased wis. The females would be incredibly charismatic (queen bee commanding her hive style), with increased dex/cha and decreased str. Just an idea I had while looking over the thread.

Fun fact, real life Bees and Ants are the amazons of the insect world.
Pretty much every bee or ant you've ever seen was genetically female. Only a couple males are born in a generation. Their only purpose in life is to find a new fledged young queen from another hive, mate with her, and then immediately die. The new queen then births countless sterile daughters, a "princess", and a new couple males.

Interestingly, sometimes something like a witchhunt happens when one of the workers (for whatever reason) begins undergoing puberty and takes on queen-like traits. The queen naturally eats those mutants asap.

Solaris
2014-12-11, 10:22 AM
Humans. Over half of the humans born are female. Clearly, this is a feminine species in general.

No, the gender ratios at birth are even. Over half of the population is female due to women living longer.

SoulSalvage
2014-12-11, 10:30 AM
Fun fact, real life Bees and Ants are the amazons of the insect world.
Pretty much every bee or ant you've ever seen was genetically female. Only a couple males are born in a generation. Their only purpose in life is to find a new fledged young queen from another hive, mate with her, and then immediately die. The new queen then births countless sterile daughters, a "princess", and a new couple males.

Interestingly, sometimes something like a witchhunt happens when one of the workers (for whatever reason) begins undergoing puberty and takes on queen-like traits. The queen naturally eats those mutants asap.

Right, I'd forgotten that bees (or at least, the ones we see) are predominantly female. Pretty bad, since I studied them for a few months once before. >.>

Still, having male workers and a female queen would be a pretty interesting race imo. I might actually have to go write that down for use...

@Eldan- Yeah, I decided to go away with the whole immobile thing regarding them. While more accurate to the real world, I feel like it makes the race less intriguing. It reminds me of the slug race that was shown in Futurama, and that wouldn't really be my thing... :p

Nargrakhan
2014-12-11, 10:39 AM
Regarding the 'split gender/race' idea someone had earlier, it actually made me think of bees. You could make a race of bee humanoids. Agile, fast, and incredibly charismatic (in terms of females, anyways).

If you wanna stay away from the hive mind or insectoid cliché for sexual relations: bonobo, lemurs, and hyenas are female dominant species with some interesting behaviors. The spotted hyena is a neat one (obviously worth a look if you wanna use Gnolls with more depth).




Nezumi/Ratling (Oriental Adventures): Rat-people. Might fall under cute for some?

Totally. I think Paizo released a Monster Codex recently, and it features ratfolk using an art style that doesn't make them mangy and ugly.

I've read posts where people thought certain versions of Splinter (from TMNT) was cute for a "wise old sensei" character.

You can make almost any D&D monster race "cute" if it's redrawn or represented in an alternate way. Paizo did it for the goblins... creepy looking, but not as ugly as they were in 3.5 vanilla.

Zrak
2014-12-11, 02:08 PM
What I was trying to point out in my largely facetious "Dwarves are the valley girls of high fantasy" comments is that I think dividing races into masculine/feminine or even beefcake/non-beefcake is ultimately a pretty shallow way of looking at it. For example, the trope of dwarves as clerics (stereotypically, healers) and inventors (mental force over physical, wits) go against it; the super-dwarven idea of rune magic is basically fighting evil using the power of your calligraphy. Kobolds, goblins, and hobgoblins all have a significant number of aspects from the list without really being what it seems like you're looking for. Whether or not you're doing it along gender lines, I think the divide you're ultimately making is really shallow and arbitrary. I think a better way of thinking about it would be to think of ways in which all the races could conceivably fit into both sides.

veti
2014-12-11, 03:26 PM
If you really want to make up new races... I suggest looking to the animal world for inspiration.

Consider squirrels:
- Solitary lifestyle
- Incredibly agile
- Cunning - excellent problem-solving skills
- Very short attention span and poor memory

Sounds like a viable template for a thief-oriented race.

Or rabbits:
- Social lifestyle, strong dependency on others
- Great improvisers, can make do and survive almost anywhere
- Not strong or particularly agile, but alert and fast

A stereotypical rabbit could be a cleric, or possibly a ranger or bard.

The common housecat:
- Lazy, self-centred
- Highly territorial
- Cruel streak
- Vain, and attach great importance to grooming

Versatile race, could be most classes, but I would think more intellectually- than physically-oriented because of the laziness factor.

If you go this way - don't, whatever you do, make the races look like the animals that inspired them. Making a squirrel-inspired race and then giving them fluffy tails and pointy ears would IMO be a huge mistake. Make them look like gnomes (by which I mean, those tacky figures who sit around in gardens with nonfunctional fishing rods) or something - basically, distract from their origins, don't accentuate them.

Nargrakhan
2014-12-11, 03:29 PM
Making a squirrel-inspired race and then giving them fluffy tails and pointy ears would IMO be a huge mistake.

The Fur is strong in you. Why deny it? Give in... accept your Furriness. Give in to the Furry Side!!! :smalltongue:

Zrak
2014-12-11, 04:25 PM
At least give them an optional alternate ability where they can dazzle creatures with darkvision by shaking their butts, as an homage to one of nature's goofiest defense mechanisms.

ReaderAt2046
2014-12-11, 04:44 PM
No, the gender ratios at birth are even. Over half of the population is female due to women living longer.

Actually, from what I understand, the gender ratio at birth (or shortly thereafter), is skewed towards men, since sex-selective abortion and female infanticide are huge problems in certain parts of the world.

Nargrakhan
2014-12-11, 05:04 PM
At least give them an optional alternate ability where they can dazzle creatures with darkvision by shaking their butts, as an homage to one of nature's goofiest defense mechanisms.

Your idea of a squirrel-girl and my idea of a squirrel-girl are definitely different. I would call that a mating call. :smallwink:

Solaris
2014-12-11, 05:22 PM
Actually, from what I understand, the gender ratio at birth (or shortly thereafter), is skewed towards men, since sex-selective abortion and female infanticide are huge problems in certain parts of the world.

Yes, but that's an entirely different conversation and not one germane to the point that humans (like most mammals) have an even gender ratio due to the way gametes are formed, and the relatively greater number of females is due to their living longer.

Metahuman1
2014-12-11, 05:49 PM
This actually beings to mind an interesting question about the idea of a race with extreme sexual dimorphism.
What if the male and female representatives of a race were so vastly different they have mechanical benefits and detriments completely distinct from each other.

What if there was a common misconception that there are no female orcs because an orcish female is actually something like a wood nymph? What if there's no such thing as a female dwarf or a male elf because they're actually the same race?

Don't be silly, only girls have wings. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmJNzi7TcTE)

You know, I suddenly have an idea for a race were males get wings and flight and a nice dex boost, maybe some stealth or magic help, and females get fast healing and DR and Size Cat Large and a nice Str/Con boost.

Zrak
2014-12-11, 06:19 PM
Your idea of a squirrel-girl and my idea of a squirrel-girl are definitely different. I would call that a mating call. :smallwink:

Squirrels distract snakes (and other predators) by heating up their tail and whipping it around like crazy, which messes with their organ that senses infrared radiation. Depending on who you ask, it's either intimidating or just confusing. While the notion that it sends a signal to the snake that the squirrel is aware of it and willing to defend itself (basically eliciting a "not worth it, bro" response from the snake) is probably a little more sound, the idea that it's just really disorienting and the snake just kind of gets weirded out and leaves is much funnier, so I went with that.

DoomHat
2014-12-11, 06:34 PM
You know, I suddenly have an idea for a race were males get wings and flight and a nice dex boost, maybe some stealth or magic help, and females get fast healing and DR and Size Cat Large and a nice Str/Con boost.

That would actually work awesomely for a bird or reptile race! That's so great I'm tempted to go try and make it actualized over in the homebrew thread right now.

Nargrakhan
2014-12-11, 06:52 PM
You know, I suddenly have an idea for a race were males get wings and flight and a nice dex boost, maybe some stealth or magic help, and females get fast healing and DR and Size Cat Large and a nice Str/Con boost.

To paraphrase a movie quote (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmJNzi7TcTE):

"Wings? I don't have wings!"

"Of course not. You're a girl."

:smallwink:

Metahuman1
2014-12-11, 07:25 PM
I was under the impression many insects and arachnids also had such features, as well as a number of aquatic species, including Mammals.


And for course, D&D, so, you can do weird stuff by just saying "Oh, the race is monstrous humanoid/draconic/outsider/abberation/whatever based."

But hey, let me know if you wanna hammer with it abit, we can maybe do that.



Nargrakhan:

"Girls are the one's who don't stay hurt for more then a minute when you hit them in the stomach with a warhammer." If were playing fully with the idea.

MalcolmReynolds
2014-12-11, 07:50 PM
@metahuman1

The mutos from godzilla? still, something with that kind of marked sexual dimorphism could be interesting.


@Zrack

i get what youre saying, and i reckon dwarves would have to be super cleanly or else the entire mountainhome would stink awefully. these things arent binary, and people's perceptions will be based on which traits they associate most strongly with the race.



As far as another idea, how do people see gensai/elemental people? people have already mentioend dryads/nymphs, and the idea i have kind of crosses them with dragonslayers in fairytail (fire dragon slayer eats fire -> can then use fire to fight), also kind of looking at the elementals in adventuretime.

having done biology this year the idea of this based around crossing genetics intrigues me. the 4 fire/water/earth/air elements are basic, but then if mama and papa are earth and water, baby gets 1 gene water 1 gene earth, they end up being a plant elemental/nymph.

also reckon that consuming their element causes strong emotion that can get out of control, eg. fire being passionate, earth being stubborn or whatever lines up.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-12-11, 08:34 PM
No, the gender ratios at birth are even. Over half of the population is female due to women living longer.

Ah, I remembered a thing wrong. According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio#Natural_ratio), males are slightly more common at birth. I recalled the opposite for some reason.

Maybe I ought to fact check my science jokes before I try to make them.

Metahuman1
2014-12-12, 05:17 PM
@metahuman1

The mutos from godzilla? still, something with that kind of marked sexual dimorphism could be interesting.

Not quite what I had in mind, but yeah, they do use that particular aspect of biology for them in that movie as I understand. (It's on my "Gotta get around to watching it list.")

Sartharina
2014-12-13, 10:19 AM
... You cannot go wrong with cat/foxgirls. Those are the perfect fit for any campaign.

Admiral Squish
2014-12-13, 10:32 AM
... You cannot go wrong with cat/foxgirls. Those are the perfect fit for any campaign.

Sorry, but I have to comment that this is provably untrue. I have seen both cat- and fox- people go very, very wrong, and while the races themselves are not to blame, there is a certain potential for them not to work in many campaign settings.
Besides, I have to say, I feel like animal-races are just too easy. Everyone's done them, and unless you pick a very unusual base-animal, or focus on an atypical aspect there-of, there's not a lot of new territory to explore.

I'll ponder on this topic while I'm out running errands and come back with some ideas for you.

Tarlek Flamehai
2014-12-14, 09:09 AM
No, the gender ratios at birth are even. Over half of the population is female due to women living longer.

My reading indicates that this varies in humans by genetic/ethnic background. Mind you, I have not made a study of it. I have not gone and checked primary sources, nor am I a geneticist (in short I may have been misled). All that said, there are variances in coloration, height and numerous other physical characteristics; so variances in male to female birth ratio make sense to me.

Solaris
2014-12-14, 01:29 PM
My reading indicates that this varies in humans by genetic/ethnic background. Mind you, I have not made a study of it. I have not gone and checked primary sources, nor am I a geneticist (in short I may have been misled). All that said, there are variances in coloration, height and numerous other physical characteristics; so variances in male to female birth ratio make sense to me.

You have been misled if you think it due to anything other than certain cultures practicing infanticide and aborting female children.

Where variances in coloration, height, and numerous other physical characteristics are derived from multiple genes, gender is derived from just one chromosome that comes from one of the parental gametes - the father's sperm cell. In 99.99% of these cells, they bear either a X or Y chromosome (sometimes they have XX or XY, or none at all). Thanks to the magic of meiosis, they are present in perfectly even proportions - even those rare aberrant sex chromosome counts work out to be just about even in the presented genders, and are too rare to skew the statistics appreciably to begin with (though they'll work more towards phenotypically female than phenotypically male).

Mammal gametes (which of course include human sperm and egg cells) are produced through the process of meiosis. This is, in essence, a two-stage division wherein a single diploid cell gives rise to four haploid daughter cells. With eggs, all but one is discarded (and they'd only carry an X chromosome to begin with). With the sperm, two of these daughter cells carry X chromosomes, and two carry Y chromosomes. Thus, no matter the race, ethnicity, or genetic background, the child has a 50-50 chance of being male or female upon conception.

Sartharina
2014-12-14, 01:51 PM
You have been misled if you think it due to anything other than certain cultures practicing infanticide and aborting female children.... Since when did the cultures of the U.S. and Western Europe and every other culture ever start practicing infanticide and abortion of female children?


Where variances in coloration, height, and numerous other physical characteristics are derived from multiple genes, gender is derived from just one chromosome that comes from one of the parental gametes - the father's sperm cell. In 99.99% of these cells, they bear either a X or Y chromosome (sometimes they have XX or XY, or none at all). Thanks to the magic of meiosis, they are present in perfectly even proportions - even those rare aberrant sex chromosome counts work out to be just about even in the presented genders, and are too rare to skew the statistics appreciably to begin with (though they'll work more towards phenotypically female than phenotypically male).

Mammal gametes (which of course include human sperm and egg cells) are produced through the process of meiosis. This is, in essence, a two-stage division wherein a single diploid cell gives rise to four haploid daughter cells. With eggs, all but one is discarded (and they'd only carry an X chromosome to begin with). With the sperm, two of these daughter cells carry X chromosomes, and two carry Y chromosomes. Thus, no matter the race, ethnicity, or genetic background, the child has a 50-50 chance of being male or female upon conception.It's a hell of a lot more complex than that. Meiosis is only one part of the process.

Metahuman1
2014-12-14, 03:25 PM
... Since when did the cultures of the U.S. and Western Europe and every other culture ever start practicing infanticide and abortion of female children?


I'm of the understanding that this happens in country's that have 1 child laws and still have costumes rigged to allow men to have things like family name and so on passed to them.

Eldan
2014-12-14, 03:27 PM
You know, I suddenly have an idea for a race were males get wings and flight and a nice dex boost, maybe some stealth or magic help, and females get fast healing and DR and Size Cat Large and a nice Str/Con boost.

I suggest scale insects as an inspiration. The females are large, heavily armoured and immobile, while hte males are short-lived, have legs and can fly.


... You cannot go wrong with cat/foxgirls. Those are the perfect fit for any campaign.

That's a pet peeve of mine. People take animals with interesting traits for their inspiration and then the best they can come up with is slightly modified human with caricature of that trait.

Stop using primate body structure for everything people! There's things out there other than tetrapods!

Sartharina
2014-12-14, 03:55 PM
That's a pet peeve of mine. People take animals with interesting traits for their inspiration and then the best they can come up with is slightly modified human with caricature of that trait.

Stop using primate body structure for everything people! There's things out there other than tetrapods!Once you stop using primate body structure and thought pattern, it starts bringing in all sorts of complications that tend to render the race unplayable, and it becomes a Monster instead.

Admiral Squish
2014-12-14, 03:56 PM
Right, I had a couple of ideas, though their appeal may vary based on what exactly you're looking for in your setting.

For our first option, we have a race that seems 'typical' on the surface. Amazons. Basically, a race of human-like females that reside in a dense rainforest. Basically standard level of societal development, with staple-crop agriculture and semi-passive environmental modification, supplemented by hunting and foraging for variety. Probably bronze tech pre-contact, but they rapidly took up ironworking when exposed to it. On the surface, they look like a standard human society, though there is one notable distinction. There are, normally, no males in amazon society. Females fill all societal roles. Outsiders might believe they just come from nowhere, or kidnap males to mate with, but the truth is much more strange. For about three months out of the year, the amazons experience their mating season. Most experience relatively minor changes, but about one in ten amazons undergoes a dramatic physical change, becoming a male for the next three months. These individuals are treated well and cared for, but they essentially lose their ability to function properly in society, losing almost all self-control and becoming highly distracted, unable to contribute to the society as a whole. The amazon word for these individuals has connotations of perversion, simple-mindedness, and uselessness, and upon contacting humans for the first time, they applied the word to the human males. The word continues to see use, and while amazons who spend time among the humans understand their males are not quite as bad as amazon males, most amazons see little difference between the two, and regard them similarly. Even those understanding ones will generally regard men as a lower social standing, and usually prefer to interact with women. Amazons are somewhat infamous for not tolerating males who behave crudely or try to order them around, but in truth, opinions vary, and some even see the presence of males year-round as a luxury to be taken advantage of.

The second option is decidedly less human. Fey, in fact. Think pixie/dryad hybrid. Tiny sized females which resemble humanoid females with some minor, insect-like traits, but delicately carved out of wood, and carried air by four wings that resemble the samara (or 'helicopters') of maple trees. Where dryads and treants may protect the trees, these little ladies actively spread the forests wherever they can. What they do is they find a certain type of tree they're particularly fond of, and enter it much like a dryad does. When they emerge, they bear a pregnant-looking belly. They don't actually suffer the normal effects of pregnancy, the belly is, in fact, full of a few dozen seeds. They can reach into said belly much like they can reach into trees, and pull out the seeds to plant. Typically they simply flutter about performing their task, but the truth is, they are somewhat distractable. They often will entertain themselves by spying on or following around the mortals that happen to pass by. Considering their infinite lifespan and natural cleverness, it's not surprising that many pick up some adventuring skills, and, when sufficiently motivated, can be fearsome opponents and powerful allies.

[shameless plugs]
Alternately, you could use ideas from some of my previous 'brews.

Thirtysixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385402) are a race of octopus/starfish things that are aquatic and arboreal, radially symmetrical, and communicate via sign-language since they don't have lungs. Also, they have three genders, and can change between them depending on their circumstances.

Gibberlings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245202) are a race of small, furry humanoids that live their lives as inseparable units of three siblings, know as 'sprouts'.

Sslak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342362) a race of sentient, amorphous slimes that can 'wear' skeletons to take on many more efficient forms.

Tenaxi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342038-Tenaxi-3-5-race-feats-Crabgrass-People) a race of plants that are very, very difficult to permanently kill, and can rarrange their grasslike fibers to take on a variety of forms.
[/shameless plugs]

Themrys
2014-12-14, 04:05 PM
im sorry, i should have explained this a little better.

In short, im looking for something that the stereotypical female would be drawn to to play.

i am aware that this is a touchy topic and it could be easy to drop into sexism, but i am trying to avoid that. i feel that you have straw manned me a little with the awesome vs matriarch thing, but i will reiterate that i DONT agree with that (capital is emphasis, not yelling).

The struggle i am facing is as follows. i am male myself, and thus find it a lot easier to create races/species that I, from a male perspective, would be more drawn to play (dwarfs and orcs for example, while they can be male or female, embody generally more masculine traits.). however, i have difficulty trying to create / find /make a spin on something so that the race embodies feminine traits. the example for a more feminine race would be elves. again, can be male or female, but i would argue that the stereotypical elf is more feminine than masculine.

i also realize it isn't binary, im more looking on a sliding scale.

i brought up the example of the matriarchy (drow) as something i want to avoid, as i dont think the answer to 'how do i make/find a feminine race' should be 'make them all/the important ones female' (there are exceptions to this, but you get my point. dont straw man me here).

I also do not want the entire game to be dominated by the politics of sex, i want to balance out the world so that there is adequate player choice, and not pidgeon holing people.

hopefully that has cleared stuff up

And thankyou jaydubs, those might be some things to look into. i do like the goblins comic, so nagas are actually a pretty good idea i reckon


I am not going to read the other posts here, due to lack of time; I don't want to get into a discussion now.

So, drow are (sorry, drow-lovers) a quite ****ty example of matriarchy, and nothing that would appeal to female players such as myself.

I like beefcake characters (female!). If you are a slender, small woman in real life, it is fun to be able to solve problems by hitting enemies with a big sword, it's a change. The character has to be female. (My first character was a stereotyped-viking type, a race that got a bonus on strength and is taller than others, and their culture has been purged of the sexism. As human women are physically exactly as strong as men in the setting, the value those pseudo-vikings place on physical strength is not quite as off-putting as it would otherwise be)

What is wrong with elves, though?
Other fantasy creatures (humans would be fine, really, just take away the patriarchy-as-default, it dominates the play way too much) would include:

- Huldra
- Merpeople (Selkies, for example, can walk on land, which is useful)
- Dryads (without trees)
- Nymphs
- Fauns (stereotypically they're all male, but hey, why cling to that? I have seen quite a few very pretty female fauns in larp)
- Werecreatures (Foxes are typically female in Japanese mythology)
- Catpeople
- Centaurs (Culture suggestion: Copy the lifestyle of horses, they live in groups lead by a female horse, usually)
- Leotaurs (They might be copyrighted, I only ever saw them in the Quest for Glory series. Basically, centaurs, but with lion bodies and heads. Ruled by a male king but all-female parliament in that game)
- whatever Maleficent was in that new movie (technically, she's a fairy, but that's a quite broad definition)

As you are not likely to ever enounter a stereotypically female player, my recommendation is to just make sure that you get away from patriarchy (and trust me, if you never tried to do something about it, your fantasy society is most likely patriarchal).

I, a female player, albeit not a stereotypical one, do not like stereotypically masculine races that value people who are capable of killing above all else. It just does not make sense to me. Ending a life is much easier than creating one. (Comes with less pain per person, on average, too!) So, no barbarian "the strongest one is the leader" tribes for me. Other than that, I play pretty much everything.

Dwarves who value arts and crafts are okay, although you might have to stay away from female beards for your stereotypical female player. (I like beards. You can plait them and decorate them with shiny gems. Very feminine!)
Take a look at Tolkien. He was actually quite good at appealing to women. There is lots of war in his books, true, but it is emphasized that pretty much no one really likes killing, or thinks it defines a person. Everyone loves poetry and song. Not just the elves, humans and dwarves, too, even hobbits, although their poetry is a bit less refined. Gimli is so proud of the masonry of the mines of Moria, that he falls in love/admiration with Galadriel after she declares her appreciation for it. There is, of course, a load of sexism in Tolkien's works, but he does a good job at staying away from the Gary Stue main character that is just an avatar for insecure male readers. (I am quite sure that the male power fantasy that has no artistic value whatsoever is what keeps women away from some kinds of fantasy. If you're not a man, it looks just so very stupid.)I am a bit stereotypical as woman, though not as female player, and I love me some culture and art. Basically, a dwarf who wants to kill orcs with a big axe so that she can get back to her very important work on that big, impressive stone statue of the dwarf queen, would very much appeal to me. If there is killing to be done, it should be done, without much fuss, in order to be able to work in peace on more important things.

Matriarchal cultures are a nice thing, too, you just have to get it right. For starters, you can just genderflip Tolkien's Middle Earth culture. (If you didn't notice the very oppressive patriarchy in Middle Earth, good - the genderflip will be subtle enough to not get in the way of gameplay) If you want to world-build a bit more, you can change some things, like for example, women might not be as obsessed with men's chastity the same way as vice versa, as women always know if it is their child or not. (Of course, jealousy is still a thing, so you can take both paths)

Eldan
2014-12-14, 07:48 PM
Once you stop using primate body structure and thought pattern, it starts bringing in all sorts of complications that tend to render the race unplayable, and it becomes a Monster instead.

But it's just so boring. And disappointing. There's so much life out there. And people always stick bilateral symmetry and four limbs and a head on everything. No one ever comes up with anything creative.

Solaris
2014-12-14, 08:42 PM
... Since when did the cultures of the U.S. and Western Europe and every other culture ever start practicing infanticide and abortion of female children?

Westerners don't. Other cultures do.
A couple of these cultures are really, really populous. Significantly more so than the U.S. and Western Europe combined, in fact.
The US's birth ratio is 1.05, meaning 105 boys to every 100 girls. You plug that into a Chi-square test, it comes up being right at the critical level for determining whether we have a statistically significant variation from the expected 1:1 ratio. To posit a conclusion, while there may be an environmental effect skewing slightly towards boys, it's not enough to overwhelm the natural inclination towards a 1:1 ratio.
China and India, on the other hand, have 1.12 - which is a statistically significant variation, and is easily explained by their practices of gendercide.


It's a hell of a lot more complex than that. Meiosis is only one part of the process.

For conception or for birth?
'Cause sperm X-or-Y is what determines at conception. Other factors (both natural and anthropogenic) play a role in whether or not the child gets carried to term or not. Don't forget, some twenty percent of human pregnancies end in a spontaneous abortion due to unviability for some reason or another. If those factors determining viability are environmental and favor one gender over another, then it's hardly a stretch of the imagination to see where the slight imbalance on the gender ratio at birth comes from.


But it's just so boring. And disappointing. There's so much life out there. And people always stick bilateral symmetry and four limbs and a head on everything. No one ever comes up with anything creative.

Yeah - but most people really lack the creativity to get into a character so vastly alien from themselves. I'll put monstrous races into my settings, but I'd be shocked and amazed if a player wanted to run one. Gotta have the usual humanoids for your usual players to play, otherwise the game gets rather dull.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-12-14, 10:24 PM
With regards to fantasy races, it's easier to understand a character if they are closer to human in physical senses, abilities and needs than not. That's probably why you generally don't see lots of amorphous slime creatures or magical flying crystals as player races.

While I like the idea of how our senses and our natural abilities influence our conception of the world around us, that doesn't strike me as a topic especially suitable for a fantasy setting. It would work better in a science fiction setting.

Or horror. The game vampire generally gets this thing right, with how the humans inside the monster must constantly fight back against their now natural senses and urges and resist becoming the worst monsters they could one day become.

And/or how they lose their connection with humanity as the centuries press on and all their old human connections fade away, and are unlikely to be replaced by new ties binding them to humanity.

goto124
2014-12-15, 03:25 PM
Admittingly, it would be a lot easier to see OP's problems if he shard with us at least 1 of the races he came up with.
Maybe he doesn't really have major problems after all. Hard to tell until OP returns.

JetThomasBoat
2015-01-04, 01:05 PM
Yeah - but most people really lack the creativity to get into a character so vastly alien from themselves. I'll put monstrous races into my settings, but I'd be shocked and amazed if a player wanted to run one. Gotta have the usual humanoids for your usual players to play, otherwise the game gets rather dull.

Actually brings up an interesting point. I was trying to work out mechanics for a creature that spent most of its time on all fours for fast movement but could also weild weapons in its front paws. Then again, it was for a fake TTRPG in a story I was writing, so it was mostly just a mental exercise.

TaintedDeity
2015-01-04, 09:18 PM
With regards to bees and 'male' and 'female', it's a bit of a misnomer to call them that. There isn't male and female bees, it would be more accurate to say there are drone, worker and queen bees. Calling them 'male' and 'female' is imposing an anthropocentric outlook on them that doesn't really achieve much.

If you want to make a bee race or insectoid race, it can be worth keeping in mind these (perhaps quite alien to us) cultural differences.

Mono Vertigo
2015-01-05, 08:25 AM
Seconding the idea of using RL animals as a baseline.
Example: crows.
- They make tools (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8631486.stm). In fact, scientists have even observed slight differences in the use or making of said tools between independent groups of crows, which may qualify or not as culture.
Bam, you get problem-solving engineers organized in clans, which define what sort of tools they use, and what for. Gnomes, but better!
- They can also tell the difference between human individuals (http://news.discovery.com/animals/zoo-animals/angry-crows-memory-life-threatening-behavior-110628.htm) and explain said differences to their group.
Bam, on top of being engineers, you also get a race that's pretty social and whose grudges can not only last long, but spread to whole clans, if not generations. (Compare us humans, who tend to have difficulties telling one goblin from another. Sometimes, we even have trouble telling one human from another.)
- Also, [utl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_bird]they can learn to speak[/url] human languages.
Ease of learning new languages makes it a social race, not just toward their own peers, but also toward other races.
(Just remember that "social" does not necessarily mean "craving positive interactions with other thinking beings".)

With just three interesting facts, you get an equally interesting race! Well, skeleton thereof. You don't have to take the direct mythological equivalent to an animal to get a race and culture; whatever these guys are, they're not Tengus, and in fact, they might not even fly at all. For the aesthetics, take a few features from the animal, but not necessarily obvious ones: delicate, slim anatomy or light weight (from the hollow bones), scaly clawed hands, dark hair (which may be feathers instead) and skin, etc.

Okay, that was one example.
You can turn to any other animal and focus on scientific facts about its behaviour, abilities, and intellect, and try to not focus on the most obvious and well-known details.
On the top of my head, here's a list of animals that can provide similarly rich inspiration, and that haven't been used much as basis for whole races in fantasy: octopus, elephant, parrot, owls, dolphins, etc...

Metahuman1
2015-01-05, 11:02 AM
I like beefcake characters (female!). If you are a slender, small woman in real life, it is fun to be able to solve problems by hitting enemies with a big sword, it's a change. The character has to be female. (My first character was a stereotyped-viking type, a race that got a bonus on strength and is taller than others, and their culture has been purged of the sexism. As human women are physically exactly as strong as men in the setting, the value those pseudo-vikings place on physical strength is not quite as off-putting as it would otherwise be)



Seconding this, It should be an option. I have a woman who, while a bit on the pudgy side, is all of about 5'2ft in one of my current groups.

She's playing a homebrewed Gargoyle Race that's like 6'9ft, as a gish who's in love with Enlarging herself with magic, and has a warblade dip for mountain hammer, and is having a grand time smashing stuff.

Segev
2015-01-05, 11:50 AM
Speaking as a male player who has gamed with a few female players, it's actually interesting that it seems less related to sex of the player and more to player personality what kind of race draws them.

I, personally, would play an elf or halfling before an orc or a dwarf. The list of terms on the first page of this thread are ones I am more likely to wish to apply to my characters. This has little to do with "wanting to play something femanine," and more to do with simply prefering guile heroes and untouchable tricksters to unstoppable juggernauts. (Not to say I don't play the latter; I have and have enjoyed them. They're just not my typical character.)

The most recent girl gamer with whom I played reveled in playing Raghilda, a half-orc barbarian woman who enjoyed violence and combat and maintained a neutral-leaning-to-good alignment despite some seriously morally-questionable suggestions. She managed this because her morally-questionable suggestions were motivated more by a serious lack of thought as to the consequences than by a desire to or callous disregard for the harm they'd lead to. (When pointed out, she was disappointed her cool idea wouldn't work, but wouldn't really have wanted to carry out something that hurt people.)


That said, it actually IS a bit fair to characterize races in fantasy as being "more masculine" or "more femanine," as evidenced by a simple test: If you think of a member of a race as a particular gender, does that racial choice automatically make either playing to "type" on the gendercause a (possibly humorous) contrast with the "type" of the race, or vice-versa?

Raghilda the half-orc barbarianess, for example, played very much to half-orc type, and thus came across as unfemanine. Where she had femanine traits, they were stand-out for being such.

Similarly, most dwarven female characters fall into either the narrow type of "matron bruiser" or are more broadly going to be "tough girls" at best.

Elven males tend towards femaninity to the point that people often joke about all elves being girls (or gay, because "can they even tell?").

It actually would be an interesting exercise to try to restructure some of the traditional races to have a "femanine" type that doesn't feel like an awkward or "humerous" contrast to human women. Design an orc and dwarven woman set of characteristics that are as distinct as those of human women from human men, without abandoning the feel of the races.

More work already has gone into examining "elven masculinity," such that it is mostly joking or shallowly dismissive when people call elves "girly." Still, re-examining the race a bit to contrast their sexes without abandoning the racial types could be interesting on a lot of fronts.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-05, 05:32 PM
I have got to ask, what females are you people playing with? Because from my experience, you're just as likely to get a slinky thief type as you are the barbarian who rips out spines and starts beating people with them. If anything, my answer for how to appeal to women is 'violence' or 'power'. If I had to break down female players I've seen...

1) The Berserkette. Aforementioned spine shennigans. Just try to point the character in the direction of enemies instead of the party itself. Strength bonus and other melee goodies are a must.

2) The Lady of Pain. Has a plan to kill EVERYONE, including other PCs. Usually a fighter or a rogue type, but can also be a cleric or other form of caster. Probably the most general, but a good intelligence/charisma bonus or a bonus to trickery can appeal.

3) The Burnatrix, or the type of person who doesn't want to see the world burn until she's found a way to travel to other planes to make them all burn. Would probably try to set the Plane of Fire on fire somehow. Caster types, especially elemental ones are favored for rather obvious reasons.

4) The Shadowmancer, or the one who likes mind control and minionmancy. Probably best not to inform her of Black Tentacles or similar effects...Caster races preferred again.

I'd honestly invest more time into finding artwork. You'd be surprised at how effective a bad-*** piece of artwork can be at appealing to people, especially new players. I think a lot of woman want to be kick-*** while looking good...Which isn't that far from most of their male counterparts.

JetThomasBoat
2015-01-05, 07:07 PM
I'm trying to think about what female players I've played with. The first was one who always played pretty much the exact same gay male wizard. Usually human? I dunno.

The second never really actually played her characters, she would just have her boyfriend/DM make her something that could do a lot of damage when played well and then she would never play well and would then gripe at said BF/DM because he promised her character would be good. Race didn't matter so long as she could have an animal companion that was cute or that she could have look like a Pokemon...

My most recent regular female player always plays elves. She just likes them ascetically and I always give her crap about it.

I decided next game I'll flip it and make an elf named Qw'estyun'aer (pronounced "questionare") Treeface and be the worst walking elven stereotype. I'm hoping it'll be fun.

Solaris
2015-01-05, 07:14 PM
I'm afraid I have to agree with Honest Tiefling. Of the females I've played with for any length of time, they've all fallen into one of those categories. Heck, my fiancee generally does all four (sometimes with the same character, even).

GrayGriffin
2015-01-05, 11:26 PM
As a female gamer, I think those categories are ridiculous and none of them properly describe any of my characters.

JetThomasBoat
2015-01-05, 11:46 PM
As a female gamer, I think those categories are ridiculous and none of them properly describe any of my characters.

I figured someone would come along with this. I think I would have to agree. My experiences with girl gamers aren't great, but if I categorized all the male players I've played into a few different categories, I'd probably never want to play again.

Metahuman1
2015-01-06, 03:34 PM
I've met those types, but I've also met others. Like I said, I'm playing with someone who's just getting thrill a minute out of pumping her character up with Wizard buffs and then using warblade maneuvers and high stats and those buffs to go "Hulk Smash.".

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-06, 05:04 PM
I meant it as a bit of harmless exaggeration. Either way, I think it is safe to say that women are varied...Even my examples. One race won't suit them all, and if you make a non-beefcake one, the ones who like fighters are going to snub it. So...Just give them the same variation as men and they'd probably be happy.

GrayGriffin
2015-01-07, 01:35 AM
Well, I also got a bit upset about it because it feels like your commentary on those four "types" was all a bit judgmental/negative. Maybe it was just me. *shrugs*

Solaris
2015-01-07, 11:05 AM
I didn't see any disparagement in them. Those four types pretty accurately describe the majority of male players I've run into, too. Sure, there's exceptions - but an exception doesn't disprove the rule.

Jay R
2015-01-07, 11:44 AM
My suggestion is to stop worrying about hypothetical women, and ask the actual women at your RPG table what they would like to play.

Beyond that, I think the catfolk suggestion was sound, and I'd consider a race that spends a lot of time on horseback and are connected to their horses, like Mercedes Lackey's Heralds.

But I suspect that your real players will have much better ideas than we will.

GrayGriffin
2015-01-08, 09:09 PM
I didn't see any disparagement in them. Those four types pretty accurately describe the majority of male players I've run into, too. Sure, there's exceptions - but an exception doesn't disprove the rule.

Why specify "female players" then? Also, none of those describe any of the other female players I know either.

Solaris
2015-01-08, 09:14 PM
Why specify "female players" then? Also, none of those describe any of the other female players I know either.

Because we're talking about female players and feminine-appealing races? Wouldn't make much sense to talk about male players while Honest Tiefling's busy pointing out that appeal isn't strictly along gender lines, would it?

That's swell. I'm happy that none of those describe any of the other female players that you know, either. I'm sad that you're not describing any of those female players' preferences, but rather sitting there complaining that someone made the mistake of trying to contribute to the thread and the OP's understanding of what people other than him like.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-08, 09:30 PM
I meant to throw out some examples of exaggerated stereotypes to show that women cannot be put into a single category and by making one race for them you run into a high risk they'll ignore it. I wanted to stress the idea that while you could try to make vague categories for women, you're not going to be able to find anything to appeal to them all. That list also represents women I have seen, personally, at the gaming table so of course it is small. I think every gaming group I have been in has at least one dude other then me and I haven't been in that many gaming groups, so there's not going to be oodles of women for me to draw upon.

Through now that I think about it, everything the OP has posted would appeal to more the men of my gaming groups. Huh.