Dwarven Tank... not the role the thing

[Wolfepuppy]

Ok, so in this campaign I'm running the Dwarves are highly military. I want them to have a tank sort of device. It would be a dome of iron with arrow slits and a rotating top with a ballista, or maybe even a bombard, in the top portion that can rotate. I need to know how I would go about calculating the weight for this so that it could be moved by a team of dwarves.

[Bullet06320]

start here

http://leonardodavinci.stanford.edu/submissions/ghoe/leonardo.htm

use davinci's design as a base

[deuxhero]

If you need status for a tank, just scale up any solid water container (such as a flask) with the normal rules for making bigger equipment

[Harlot]

One already exists. Sort of.
Just add some heavy weaponry to this beauty:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Apparatus_of_the_Crab

[Extra Anchovies]

One already exists. Sort of.
Just add some heavy weaponry to this beauty:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Apparatus_of_the_Crab

You mention the Apparatus of Kwalish, so I have to mention its big brother: Effigy Siege Crab. It's an autonomous construct, and has room for twice as many people inside (four times as many if you want it to be Colossal).

[Yahzi]

Ok, so in this campaign I'm running the Dwarves are highly military. I want them to have a tank sort of device. It would be a dome of iron with arrow slits and a rotating top with a ballista, or maybe even a bombard, in the top portion that can rotate. I need to know how I would go about calculating the weight for this so that it could be moved by a team of dwarves.
Without magic, it cannot be done in any useful way.

There is a medieval example of using armored wagons. The Hussites would drag them behind horses to a suitable spot, where they would be assembled in a circle and bolted together. The cavalry would then go out, attack an enemy force, and then lure them back to the camp (i.e. "pulling" in the parlance of MMOs, and it worked just as well for the Hussites as it does for the Horde :D ).

However, medieval technology simply cannot hit the sweet spot between materials strong enough to be protective but light enough to be moved by any force available at the time. Even zombie-powered cranks probably can't actually move the many tons that even 1" iron plate would require. As DeGualle said, a tank without mobility is just a target. Even if you could build an armored shell, it would just be crushed/overturned/walked around by the enemy.

I suggest animated dinosaur skeletons, specifically Triceratops. You can hang plate on them (you don't care that they can't attack) and have them open their mouth to allow the ballista to fire. The plate can have arrow slits for your crossbowmen.

Another option is Animate Object + Permanency, which at 15th level (with a little shenanigans) can get you 2 fake iron golems for a very reasonable price. (Go to Drive Thru RPG and download my Goblins module). You could easily make those golems into animated armored wagons, and viola!

Of course a high-level priest is going to ruin your day with either of these weapons; but then a high level priest pretty much just ruins your day anyway.

[frogglesmash]

There's the Dwarven Tunneler in the Arms and Equipment Guide.

[Admiral Squish]

I just don't think dwarves would develop large, armored vehicles. Their warfare techniques would more likely be designed to work in the tunnels of their mines.

I don't think you're out of options, though. I imagine a dwarven phalanx would be a fearsome offensive and defensive force. Basically, you'd have a certain number of armored dwarves with tower shields. When in the tunnels, you'd only need a handful in the front and the back. On an open field of battle, the numbers would need to be much larger, but it would definitely be workable. These guys would have melee weaponry, probably war picks, shortspears, or axes. In the middle, you put the firepower. This could be a number of crossbowmen, it could be magicians, it could be a ballista or catapult, or it could be something more exotic like the aforementioned armored-triceratops-ballista. The formation would advance slowly but surely, re-planting their shields at the end of each movement.

If you're really dedicated to the idea of an armored tank, I would say you probably can't put a ballista in there. I could see some sort of iron half-dome, probably large- or huge-sized at the largest. You'd fill the structure with dwarven crossbowmen, and they'd take hold of various handles along the inside edge, flintstoning the structure around collectively, and planting it to fire out the bolt-holes.

[Jack_Simth]

Ok, so in this campaign I'm running the Dwarves are highly military. I want them to have a tank sort of device. It would be a dome of iron with arrow slits and a rotating top with a ballista, or maybe even a bombard, in the top portion that can rotate. I need to know how I would go about calculating the weight for this so that it could be moved by a team of dwarves.

If you simply want to calculate weight before weapons, that's relatively straightforward.

Pick a thickness. One inch, say.
Pick a shape. Half-sphere, say.
Pick a size. Ten foot radius, say.
Pick a material. Wrought Iron, say.
Look up the density of your material. In the case of Wrought Iron, found Here (http://www.allmeasures.com/Formulae/static/formulae/density/19.htm).
Look up the formula for your object (for a sphere, that's 4*pi*r*r) and calculate it out. Said half-sphere is thus 2*pi*r*r=90477.86832 square inches in area. As it's also one inch thick, that makes it 90477.86832 cubic inches in the volume of material, as well.
Multiply the density by your volume. In the specific example, it works out to 24842.349632938563 pounds. Round for convenience, and call it 25,000 pounds.

How many dwarves can you fit in that ten foot radius half-sphere? Probably not enough to carry it. And a sphere is the most weight/volume efficient form. As Yahzi said: "Without magic, it cannot be done in any useful way."

[AnonymousPepper]

Permanencied windowed Forcecages mounted on Tenser's Floating Disks would count as tanks, wouldn't they? >_>

[Hamste]

What if they made a perfectly balanced sphere of wrought iron though? 50000 pounds of wrought iron moved by a dwarf carrying a heavy load that puts all their weight onto a perpendicular hand hold thing in the wall.

The inertia of the sphere is 2/3*50000*10^2. Ke=1/2I angular velocity squared. Two stout dwarves with 18 strength is (226 base weight+300 pounds from strength)*2. By holding onto a perpendicular handhold all of their weight is in potential energy (none is being held up by the normal force I believe). That is a height of 5 feet so mgh converting pounds to kilograms. Round we get a potential energy of 24000. If all the energy is converted potential energy=kinetic. All done out we have an angular velocity of .12 the units of angular velocity is rads/second and one half of a circle is Pi radians. Assuming all the rotation is converted to movement and friction does not take any energy then we have a speed of 1.2 feet per second I think, more if it is made from something lighter like mithral. Of course this is best case scenario and I may be wrong somewhere. You could also increase speeds by giving them clockwork armor which is not only heavy with out affecting your encumberance but also gives an enhancement bonus to strength. How you would weaponize hamster balls that couldn't go in most terrain I have no idea.

[Seffbasilisk]

If you're building a geodesic dome of adamantine, and fastening armor plates to the inside of it, there could be a series of straps and hand-holds, so as it travels, the dwarves moves through as a smoothly operating unit, two pull out the relevant plates, four grip the edges of the new openings pressed to whatever surface they aim to launch off of, and leap, then pull themselves inside, and the dwarves replace and fasten the armor plates, then brace/strap themselves in for impact.

That's if you're just looking for battering, bludgeoning, and APC.

[danzibr]

This reminds me...

In a campaign I'm (sort of) running, I was going to make the party discover something like Weapon (from Final Fantasy), but have it be not automated. So they'd drive, pull levers, and it'd move and attack like Weapon. Then they'd have to go wreck an enemy army and big silly monster thing before it expired.

I didn't work out the details though.

[SiuiS]

If you need status for a tank, just scale up any solid water container (such as a flask) with the normal rules for making bigger equipment

Hahaha! That's really clever!

I personally just used a wagon, myself. It was, admittedly, pulled by a gargantuan-ish tricked out water Orc half Minotaur death knight, but the idea was standard; a wagon, with the horses inside, a ballista in top and tower shields mounted on the side. The wheels were treads and instead of a simple hole in the bottom, a crank like bike pedals or a treadmill. We ended up with, basically;
• Full cover and concealment for those pushing the tank (horses or dwarves)
• cover but no concealment for the artillery crew
• no terrain penalty for overland movement; ignores rough terrain

That's the best you'll get. If you want anything more modern, the tank is not going to really operate like a vehicle it will operate like a monster.

[nedz]

Try this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10812701&postcount=43)........

[SowZ]

I would give any archer's inside firing out, aside from a limited range of vision, -2 to attack rolls and max of 5 range increments. But I would also give them greater cover on rounds they fire, (+8 to AC and +4 Reflex,) and total cover on rounds they spend ducked down. I might also increase damage from explosion and fire to balance it out since they are in a very enclosed space, though.

[toapat]

However, medieval technology simply cannot hit the sweet spot between materials strong enough to be protective but light enough to be moved by any force available at the time. Even zombie-powered cranks probably can't actually move the many tons that even 1" iron plate would require. As DeGualle said, a tank without mobility is just a target. Even if you could build an armored shell, it would just be crushed/overturned/walked around by the enemy.

actually, tanks have most of their armor towards the front of the vehicle, the back shouldnt need heavy armor lest you really screw up your army's positioning and allow the enemy forces behind you. and this is DnD, we can create an Infinite torque turbine just with a flywheel and permanancied Animate object, and we have both trace Adamantine alloys and Mithral. Throw enough money at it and you can make an Abrams which works like an abrams, drives like an abrams, and needs just as much fuel as a real abrams, but of whiskey, not jetfuel.

stick a balista on top and you have a tank

[Blackhawk748]

There's the Dwarven Tunneler in the Arms and Equipment Guide.

Im seconding this. It requires very little in the way of adaptation as its already armor plated IIRC and even if you wanted something completely different its just made with animated tracks so you can adopt the method.

[Yahzi]

actually, tanks have most of their armor towards the front of the vehicle, the back shouldnt need heavy armor lest you really screw up your army's positioning and allow the enemy forces behind you. and this is DnD, we can create an Infinite torque turbine just with a flywheel and permanancied Animate object, and we have both trace Adamantine alloys and Mithral. Throw enough money at it and you can make an Abrams which works like an abrams, drives like an abrams, and needs just as much fuel as a real abrams, but of whiskey, not jetfuel.

stick a balista on top and you have a tank
Er... no.

Are adamantine alloys a thing? I've never seen it in a source book. Of course they don't even list steel, just iron, but still: adamantine is a magical item. No telling what its chemical properties are.

Turbines require a lot more than good materials. They require incredible precision of manufacture, especially in the bearings. These are specifications that medieval smiths can't even measure, let alone produce. Maybe you could wish for the parts, but then you'd have to know what the design is, and the math that creates that design hasn't been invented yet.

An Animated Wagon, however, is easily within the purview of the medievial mind. And there is already rules for it. Although, honestly, once you're animating things, why would you make a wheeled vehicle? Legs are better when you don't have roads. We only put wheels on tanks because we can't build legs. Our Iron Golems don't work. D&D's do. Just make an Iron Golem (or an animated statue) carrying a ballista like a crossbow with space in the head for the driver, and your done. And with a little luck your DM will give you Trample as well.

[Milo v3]

And there is already rules for it. Although, honestly, once you're animating things, why would you make a wheeled vehicle? Legs are better when you don't have roads. We only put wheels on tanks because we can't build legs.

Because animated objects move faster with wheels and have no difficulty going up stairs.

[Tarvus]

I'm in favour of mantlets on Force Disks, simply because its simple to establish with current rules and I've used them as caster tanks before. Also Suspension (wiz4) from Shining South is basically Levitate, 1d4 Days/lvl and carries 1000lbs/lvl. With those sort of limits and the right CL shenanigans you can use it to handwave away the actual question you asked - just boost it until no matter what the weight is, its irrelevant.

If thats a no-go, or you want purely mechanical: As mentioned AaEG has the Tunneller but it also has Mobile Redoubt, Siege Tower, and Halfling War Wagon, all of which fit the basic premise and iirc list the size and possibly weight (theres a rough equivalency for that anyway) for your consideration.

If none of this is satisfactory you can always go the Greco-roman way and make a tank out of people (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4963).

EDIT: Oh I forgot the option that actually inspired me to comment - if you want something more super-weapon-y (occupying the role of a siege tower more than a modern tank), the Stronghold Builders guide offers some powerful options. Offensively, Defensively and Propulsion wise. A single, mobile, weapon-equipped room with balistraria and machicolations would potentially be devastating, and the defensive enchantments you can put on rooms could be useful on the battlefield. More of a one-off but potentially significantly more powerful. And again, this ignores the weight in question and so answers the question by avoiding it all together.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you simply want to calculate weight before weapons, that's relatively straightforward.

Pick a thickness. One inch, say.
Pick a shape. Half-sphere, say.
Pick a size. Ten foot radius, say.
Pick a material. Wrought Iron, say.
Look up the density of your material. In the case of Wrought Iron, found Here (http://www.allmeasures.com/Formulae/static/formulae/density/19.htm).
Look up the formula for your object (for a sphere, that's 4*pi*r*r) and calculate it out. Said half-sphere is thus 2*pi*r*r=90477.86832 square inches in area. As it's also one inch thick, that makes it 90477.86832 cubic inches in the volume of material, as well.
Multiply the density by your volume. In the specific example, it works out to 24842.349632938563 pounds. Round for convenience, and call it 25,000 pounds.

How many dwarves can you fit in that ten foot radius half-sphere? Probably not enough to carry it. And a sphere is the most weight/volume efficient form. As Yahzi said: "Without magic, it cannot be done in any useful way."

If you cut that thickness in half and use glassteel (races of faerun) it only weights 6,500lbs and is easily just as strong. Plop some wheels on that to cut the effective drag weight down to 1,625 and you're easily within the combined drag load of 4 average strength dwarves.

There -is- the prohibitive cost factor with that plan though.

[nedz]

actually, tanks have most of their armor towards the front of the vehicle, the back shouldnt need heavy armor lest you really screw up your army's positioning and allow the enemy forces behind you. and this is DnD, we can create an Infinite torque turbine just with a flywheel and permanancied Animate object, and we have both trace Adamantine alloys and Mithral. Throw enough money at it and you can make an Abrams which works like an abrams, drives like an abrams, and needs just as much fuel as a real abrams, but of whiskey, not jetfuel.

stick a balista on top and you have a tank

IRL Tanks have most of their armour at the front to counter anti tank weapons. What weapons does our tank actually have to counter ? Also, Armour just decreases the to hit chance — anything beyond this is a waste.

[toapat]

Er... no.

Are adamantine alloys a thing? I've never seen it in a source book. Of course they don't even list steel, just iron, but still: adamantine is a magical item. No telling what its chemical properties are.

Turbines require a lot more than good materials. They require incredible precision of manufacture, especially in the bearings. These are specifications that medieval smiths can't even measure, let alone produce. Maybe you could wish for the parts, but then you'd have to know what the design is, and the math that creates that design hasn't been invented yet.

An Animated Wagon, however, is easily within the purview of the medievial mind. And there is already rules for it. Although, honestly, once you're animating things, why would you make a wheeled vehicle? Legs are better when you don't have roads. We only put wheels on tanks because we can't build legs. Our Iron Golems don't work. D&D's do. Just make an Iron Golem (or an animated statue) carrying a ballista like a crossbow with space in the head for the driver, and your done. And with a little luck your DM will give you Trample as well.

Adamantine in its description is explicitly stated to be a trace element used in the steel alloys of arms and armor, which is typically found in meteorites. Its only a magical substance in 5th. The only natively magical material in 3rd is Glassteel which comes with a natural enhancement bonus.

you also cant say that DnD smiths are medieval smiths because they are capable of Cold-rolling steel into weapons. Both Cold-Iron and Thinuan require modern equipment to work the ways described but the game ostensibly says these are not guys with modern equipment.

We can build legs for tanks. If you dont believe that look up Boston Dynamics. The reality is a Leg is a terrible method of traversing terrain, benefited only by the advantage of its adaptability.we wrap a long series of wheels in cast iron plates specifically to increase the variety of terrain that a tank can traverse and to allow greater bracing against the recoil of its main gun.

Turbines also are worthless in DnDiverses when they are not powering heavier-then-air flight. I explicitly stated that the Flywheel (Aka the part of the assembly doing work) would be animated, not a turbine. However, Again this is DnD. We have in universe clockwork traps sufficiently complex as to reset their mechanism. Standardization hasnt caught on but the tools needed to do it also exist.

While i dont have the numbers, i would assume you can push a Craft (Metalworking (generalist)) check into the low 100s, or sufficiently high for a medieval smith to make modern alloys and potentially refine aluminum and proper titanium instead of mithral.

Remember, this is DnD: While Physics and Biology both have class action lawsuits against magic, Chemistry and Astronomy are getting drunk with Thaumoturgy. Psychology, Sociology, and Economics have hit contracts on DnD


IRL Tanks have most of their armour at the front to counter anti tank weapons. What weapons does our tank actually have to counter ? Also, Armour just decreases the to hit chance — anything beyond this is a waste.

Specifically in 3rd is non-uniform armor worthless. In prior editions, shields had facings, and if you had Front: Not gonna happen, then that was great so long as you could keep your enemies in front of you. A tank is going to only be able to engage enemies in tunnels in a way that Front: Not gonna Happen is the ONLY option available to the people about to meet HEAT ammo.


There -is- the prohibitive cost factor with that plan though.

Ay, and we be havin ta buy dem materials from the dern'd Treehugga's.