Double Pathfinder Question

[Glarx]

Hi there, Playground!

I've only just started to learn Pathfinder, so there are hundreds of questions swirling about in my head. However, there are only two pertinent questions that I'm really interested in asking for the time being, and here they are!

1) What makes witches so good? I've heard a lot about how they are remarkable, but not really how they are remarkable, if that distinction makes sense. People have placed Witches at Tier 1, alongside classics like Cleric, Wizard, and Druid. What am I missing?

2) When should a sorcerer use Eldritch Heritage? Imagine a level 1 sorcerer with the Fey bloodline -- should she get Eldritch Heritage at level 3, perhaps of the Arcane bloodline? Or is it only really for gishes who don't want to use crossblooded?

There will definitely be more questions (like sorcerer magic item selection, traits, so on and so forth) but I feel like those would all benefit from additional research. For now, I'm curious about witches and eldritch heritages, and I hope y'all can help.

Thanks kindly!

[Extra Anchovies]

Eldritch Heritage is a great feat for pretty much anyone who can spare the feat slots, thanks to the Linnorm Bloodline. Scaling Darkvision and Perception bonuses, plus Scent from level 3 (after Eldritch Heritage adjustments) and Blindsense at character level 13. Yes, Blindsense at level 13.

[Fouredged Sword]

Witchs are Tier 1 due to their access to the witch spell list. It has a nice spread of spells from 1-9th level. Any hexes they get are just bonus on top of that.

[ghanjrho]

Eldritch Heritage is a great feat for pretty much anyone who can spare the feat slots, thanks to the Linnorm Bloodline. Scaling Darkvision and Perception bonuses, plus Scent from level 3 (after Eldritch Heritage adjustments) and Blindsense at character level 13. Yes, Blindsense at level 13.

Not legal, sadly. Linnorm isn't a Bloodline, it's the Draconic Bloodline altered by the Wildblooded archtype.

[Extra Anchovies]

Not legal, sadly. Linnorm isn't a Bloodline, it's the Draconic Bloodline altered by the Wildblooded archtype.

Really? I thought it was one all of its own. After all, it's got its own spell list, and a full set of bloodline arcana/powers (link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-3rd-party-publishers/paizo-fans-united-wayfinder-magazine/linnorm-bloodline)).

Hm, turns out that's a third-party bloodline. Whoops, I guess.

[Kurald Galain]

1) What makes witches so good? I've heard a lot about how they are remarkable, but not really how they are remarkable, if that distinction makes sense. People have placed Witches at Tier 1, alongside classics like Cleric, Wizard, and Druid. What am I missing?
Their spells. Like the cleric, wizard, and druid they get higher level spells earlier than any other class, and that's a big deal.

That said, most witch hexes are fun but lacklustre (with a few exceptions like Slumber) and at the first few levels none of the spellcasters truly shine yet.



2) When should a sorcerer use Eldritch Heritage?
He generally shouldn't. It's not that great a feat since it only gives the level-1 power, and the fact that it has a mostly-useless feat as a prerequisite shouldn't help.


Eldritch Heritage is a great feat for pretty much anyone who can spare the feat slots, thanks to the Linnorm Bloodline. Scaling Darkvision and Perception bonuses, plus Scent from level 3 (after Eldritch Heritage adjustments) and Blindsense at character level 13. Yes, Blindsense at level 13.
Note that the Linnorm bloodline is homebrew, and probably not allowed in most games. Blindsense is certainly nice (assuming your campaign gets to level 13 in the first place), but there's much easier ways to pick up darkvision and scent.

[DarkOne-Rob]

1. Answered correctly.

2. Eldritch Heritage is only as powerful as the power(s) it gives you. That said, the Arcane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) power gives you a Familiar, which is often worth the two feats to get it, IMO.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Just to elaborate a bit on (IMO) the types of things that a Witch can do with its spells, to reach Tier 1:

- Summon Monster X line: Extremely versatile spells which almost always can provide some form of solution to the problem at hand. Witches are not terribly good at Summoning, but they can still drop an Ankylosaur or Ice Devil or whatever else the situation needs.

- Battlefield Control: From level 1, Witches get many of the good BC spells; the various Fogs, Sleet Storm, Grease, Web, access to some Walls through various Patron choices. BC almost always works, and while it's rarely a hard counter to any situation, it can often buy your party the time it needs to unravel an enemy's plans.

- Single- and Multi-Target Debuffs: This is the Witch's bag. Across various spell levels it has spells targeting one enemy, several enemies, attacking every save, bypassing various defenses like SR and Mind Immunity. Confusion, Baleful Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Ray / Waves of Exhaustion, Magic Jar, Enervation, even Ill Omen are all basically random examples of fairly decent spells which ruin an enemy's day to various degrees, occasionally not even offering a save.

- Utility Casting: Flight, teleportation, healing, planar travel, planar creation, astral projection, buffs, time manipulation, dispelling, illusions, bypassing illusions... And, as a prepared caster, you can load up your "spellbook" to be able to do nearly all of this at a moment's notice.

And of course, one of the key reasons this brings the class to Tier 1 is that it can do all of these things at once, with minor amounts of preparation time or even forethought. Its hexes can provide a nice fallback option for something effective to do if you can't think of / spare a useful spell and don't want to throw knives. Meanwhile, with one or two spells it can cripple opponents, rearrange reality to better suit its needs, often without breaking a sweat. It is certainly not the best Tier 1 - for instance, lacking some of my favourite minion-mancy spells like Planar Binding - but frankly "the best game-breaking class" a fairly silly distinction.

[skypse]

It compensates for the early low power of other spellcasting classes because of the early level hexes. 2nd round in, you have 1 guy sleeping regardless of his HD and 1 guy having to roll twice for everything and take the worst result. And every round of yours, you just refresh those effects by spending a move action. And you still haven't spent a single spell. And you can keep on doing that for every single enemy out there, twice on the same target if you take a feat and someone saves against you.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, the hexes are nice, but it's the access to a massive tier 1 spell list with the potential to gain any spell on it for a given day that makes them tier 1. The only high tier class without 9th level spells is the summoner, and the summoner has summon monster IX anyway.

[Glarx]

Gosh! Thanks everyone, that was a delightful read. I'm glad to have had all of that cleared up! :smallsmile:

What's weird is that the Linnorn bloodline is on Hero Lab, which I thought didn't use Third Party stuff without a specific supplement. Hmm.

[torrasque666]

Gosh! Thanks everyone, that was a delightful read. I'm glad to have had all of that cleared up! :smallsmile:

What's weird is that the Linnorn bloodline is on Hero Lab, which I thought didn't use Third Party stuff without a specific supplement. Hmm.
You might be confusing the Linnorm bloodline that's 3rd party, with the Linnorm bloodline that's the wildblooded variant of Draconic.

[Glarx]

You might be confusing the Linnorm bloodline that's 3rd party, with the Linnorm bloodline that's the wildblooded variant of Draconic.

Pfft. Who'd ever make that mistake?

>_>

<_<

[oxybe]

Yeah, the hexes are nice, but it's the access to a massive tier 1 spell list with the potential to gain any spell on it for a given day that makes them tier 1. The only high tier class without 9th level spells is the summoner, and the summoner has summon monster IX anyway.

Pretty much this. Witches don't have the versatile spell list of a wizard, but it's leaps and bounds above what non-casters have access to and you still get access to some pretty nasty stuff.

Some of the hexes are pretty good though. Slumber is a single target sleep with no HD cap and the evil eye hex gives a -2 or -4 debuff to attacks/saves/skills/ability checks/AC that, even on a successful save gives one round of debuff. Animal Skin is an unlimited-use beast shape 2 that requires you to have a pelt beforehand.

These are things that will keep being relevant almost regardless of level, though their effectiveness will vary depending on what your GM throws at you.

Still though, as a player of a level 14 witch "I summon a Gargantuan Fiendish Anaconda" tends to solve most problems, if only by intimidation factor alone.

[Glarx]

Is there any way to get a witch keyed off of Charisma instead of Intelligence? I don't think so, but I favor Cha to Int for my characters. Figured I'd ask! :smallredface:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The only alternate ability score Witch I know of is the Scarred Witch Doctor Orc archetype. And that is Constitution-based.

[Glarx]

Drat. That's what I thought, but I was hoping I'd missed something in my newbness.

Thank you for the swift reply!

---

To continue my thread of questions, does anyone have any suggestions about magical items to buy or make ASAP? I've read threads that show all these magnificent magical items, but there's rarely been a hierarchy or a "aim for X at level 3, because it'll really help."

[Zrak]

Is there any way to get a witch keyed off of Charisma instead of Intelligence? I don't think so, but I favor Cha to Int for my characters. Figured I'd ask! :smallredface:

If you're not going to pay PFS, this is the sort of thing it'd probably be pretty easy to get a GM to go for. Unless you're going for a few specific cheesy Cha-to-X options, I can't really think of a reason to refuse it.

[Glarx]

If you're not going to pay PFS, this is the sort of thing it'd probably be pretty easy to get a GM to go for. Unless you're going for a few specific cheesy Cha-to-X options, I can't really think of a reason to refuse it.

I just like playing a Face, so I normally tend towards sorcerers. But a GM suggested I try a witch, so I've started doing research on 'em. :smallsmile:

Simply put, I don't have enough experience with PF to intentionally do anything cheesy.

[Zrak]

I'd say asking if you can just be charisma-based is worth a shot, in that case; you get to try out new mechanics while still remaining in an archetype you're pretty comfortable with. Alternatively, you could just use traits to grab all the social skills Witch is missing, since skill ranks outpace ability modifiers almost immediately and int-based characters get tons of skill points.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I just like playing a Face, so I normally tend towards sorcerers. But a GM suggested I try a witch, so I've started doing research on 'em. :smallsmile:

Simply put, I don't have enough experience with PF to intentionally do anything cheesy.

Since you can pick up two traits with your character you could grab ones that let you use Int instead of Cha for those face skills. There are a few good ones to choose from:

Student of Philosophy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/student-of-philosophy)
Bruising Intellect (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/bruising-intellect)
Clever Wordplay (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/clever-wordplay)

You can only pick one of those three unless your GM lets you pick two traits from the same category. Still, combine Clever Wordplay with some of the Enchantment spells available to you and you can get away with quite a bit.