[3.5] How long would it take for a full-BAB d10 monk to fall behind?

[Extra Anchovies]

As per the title. Give them full BAB and a d10 HD, keep all other class features as is. How would they hold up?

Alternately, where would the PF monk fall power-wise if ported into an otherwise 3.5 game?

[Snowbluff]

Depends.

How many bullets can he take to the knees, and how well does he swim with the concrete shoes I got him for Christmas?

Seriously though, it would help a bit, but the class is crummy anyway. PF monk would be better, but you're still better off with an initiator. High T5 to T4ish, IMO.

[NotScaryBats]

Fall behind... what? I think that would put them pretty much on par with the other melee classes in low op games, but they are pretty much already there. Higher op, the bonus BAB and HD wouldn't really matter because you'd be up against THF charge-barians and persist clerics.

So, I don't think it would make a big difference on either end. The people who already feel monk is op would think it was more so, perhaps.

[Troacctid]

It would be a bigger buff to dippers than to single-classed Monks.

[TypoNinja]

In games around the power level of published adventures? That's plenty.

Giving him full bab makes him a viable combatant again. The d10 really inst that significant. Its from an average of 4.5hp a level to 5.5hp a level, nice, but not game changing.

His powers still don't synergize well, but he still compares favorably to something like a fighter whos massive pile of feats are pretty mediocre if you don't go spat book diving for the really good stuff like shocktropper.

[KillianHawkeye]

While I agree that the Monk probably deserves to have a higher BAB, their BAB and HD size are not really the problems. It's the class features, which are all across the board and don't synergize at all. Giving them higher numbers won't change that.

In most of the games I'm in, all this change would do is help the players who like dipping a level of Monk or Carmendine Monk on their Druid and Wizard characters.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It -might- keep them from "falling behind" a level or three longer than they do normally but the average BAB and D8 hit dice were never really the issue to begin with.

The problem that the monk has is a combination of class features that don't synergize well with each other, generally lack-luster class features to begin with, and several of them being -way- too limited in their daily uses. If you were to fix these (or use one of the extant fixes from the homebrew forum) then you'd do a lot better than just tweaking the HD and BAB.

[Troacctid]

Instead of adding a few numbers, you'd do better making their abilities more practical and versatile. Make Flurry a standard action, for starters. It's ridiculous that a class that's supposed to be mobile can only use its main ability while standing still. And giving them free Weapon Finesse would help more than giving them full BAB--it does the same thing, giving a numerical bonus, but it takes a lot of pressure off of their ability scores, which is more satisfying, I think. Pathfinder lets them use Dex for combat maneuvers too, right? I like that change a lot.

[Eldan]

I'd say they would about hold up against a not-too-much optimized fighter?

Comparable:
Hit points
AC (if decent wisdom and before the fighter can afford plate)
To hit score

Advantages:
Skills (both number and selection)
Speed (more useful if everyone has only one attack per round)
Saves money on gear, doesn't need to buy armour and weapons, so can probably afford things like adventuring equipment, trained animals, potions, alchemy, which are all useful.
If facing groups of low-AC enemies (kobolds, goblins, rats), flurry of blows might actually be occasionally useful.

Problems:
Needs four stats (Str, Dex, Con, Wis) instead of two (Str, Con)
Damage output (the monk has basically a light weapon, comparable to a short, maybe long sword. The fighter can buy a two-handed weapon that easily deals double or more damage, with power attack).

[atemu1234]

I once allowed a gestalt Monk / Fighter in a campaign that wasn't gestalt, and it still fell behind. Though which class's fault it was was up for debate.

[ericgrau]

Full BAB doesn't do that much for tripping or grapple damage so it doesn't make much difference and isn't actually a fix. It does make them more of a trap because you still won't deal that much damage that way but you'll try.

Now if you up their AC, hp and damage too... you'll have another fighter.

[Extra Anchovies]

Pathfinder lets them use Dex for combat maneuvers too, right? I like that change a lot.

Only if they take Agile Maneuvers. And they can only get dex to damage via the third-party feat Deadly Agility.

*sigh*

[Curmudgeon]

Monk has decent abilities through level 2, and the proposed changes don't help in that regard: almost everything after that is worth less than the vast majority of D&D class features. So the answer remains the same; level 3 is where the Monk falls behind other classes.

[Flickerdart]

Monk has decent abilities through level 2, and the proposed changes don't help in that regard: almost everything after that is worth less than the vast majority of D&D class features. So the answer remains the same; level 3 is where the Monk falls behind other classes.
Eh, I feel like they hold their own against some of the weaker T4s until about level 6, especially if you're using the alternate Fighting Styles to capitalize on one of the good bonuses.