Sorcerer Balance (Buffs)

[Kryx]

After reviewing the Sorcerer and comparing it to other classes it seems it needs a slight buff in some areas. There are several threads talking about the power level of Sorcs and most say it is at a decent level, but slightly behind. Threads: besides damage what else is a sorcerers good at? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?380522-besides-damage-what-else-is-a-sorcerers-good-at), Is Bard a better spellcaster than Sorcerer? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374075-Is-Bard-a-better-spellcaster-than-Sorcerer), Are you playing a sorcerer? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386888-Are-you-playing-a-sorcerer).

I think the Sorcerer is pretty close to where it should be and with a few minor adjustments it could be at a more acceptable level. I ask for you feedback.

Problem 1: Spells Known
Problem: Spells known is a very small number. Sorcerers will know 15 spells total. Bards know 22. Rangers 11.
Solution: Increase the number of spells known
Method: Give extra spells known based on the Sorcerer's Origin. Give 2 1st level spells and a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell for a total of 6 more spells known (21 total at 20). This could also progress to higher levels, but I wonder if 6 is enough. This Reddit thread (http://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2d9ys6/some_houserules_for_sorcerers/) has given me inspiration. The current method only gives lower level spells which makes the Sorcerer not have many higher level spells.

Draconic Bloodline


Sorcerer Level
Spell Level
Origin Spell


1st
1st
Acid = **** (Corrosive Touch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/corrosive-touch) from PF)
Cold = ****
Fire = Burning Hands
Lightning = Thunderwave or Witch Bolt
Poison = Ray of Sickness


2nd
1st
Chromatic Orb


3rd
2nd
Acid = Melf's Acid Arrow
Cold = **** (Frigid Touch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/frigid-touch), Ice Slick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/ice-slick), or Unshakable Chill (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/unshakable-chill) from PF)
Fire = Scorching Ray
Lightning = Shatter
Poison = Web or **** (Whip of Spiders (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/whip-of-spiders))


5th
3rd
Acid = **** (Trial of Fire and Acid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/trial-of-fire-and-acid) from PF)
Cold = Sleet Storm
Fire = Fireball
Lightning = Lightning Bolt
Poison = Stinking Cloud


7th
4th
Acid = **** (Fire Shield as Vitriolic Mist)
Cold = Ice Storm
Fire = Wall of Fire
Lightning = **** (Ball Lightning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/ball-lightning))
Poison = Blight or ****


9th
5th
Acid = **** (Acidic Spray from PF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/acidic-spray))
Cold = Cone of Cold
Fire = **** Fire Snake (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fire-snake)
Lightning = **** (Lightning Arc (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lightning-arc))
Poison = Cloudkill


**** Reflavor another spell to match the damage type or port one from a different edition.


Melf's Acid arrow not being on the Sorcerer's spell list by default is a bit silly.


Wild Magic


Sorcerer Level
Spell Level
Origin Spell


1st
1st
Color Spray


2nd
1st
???


3rd
2nd
Crown of Madness or Mirror Image


5th
3rd
Blink or Counterspell


7th
4th
Banishment or Confusion


9th
5th
Creation



__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________

Problem 2: Dragon Magic Tiers
Problem: There are more Fire spells than other damage types which makes fire the superior choice.
Solution: Give the other Damage types more spells.
Method: Reflavor an existing spell to match the new damage type. Or port some from older editions.

Tier 1:
Fire: Fire Bolt, Chromatic Orb, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Wall Of Fire, Delayed Blast Fireball, Fire Storm, Prismatic Spray, Incendiary Cloud, Meteor Swarm

Tier 2:
Lightning: Shocking Grasp, Chromatic Orb, Witch Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Prismatic Spray
Cold: Ray of Frost, Chromatic Orb, Ice Storm, Cone Of Cold, Prismatic Spray

Tier 3:
Acid: Acid Splash, Chromatic Orb, Prismatic Spray
Poison: Poison Spray, Chromatic Orb, Ray Of Sickness, Cloudkill, Prismatic Spray
Source (http://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2ju22b/houserule_for_the_sorcerers_draconic_ancestry/)

This is somewhat lessened by spells like Sleet Storm which creates ice (cold), but does no damage. Those type of spells are fine - it increases the diversity of choice in that some damage types are more CC oriented. But the number of spells should be somewhat comparable.
An example of reflavoring: you could have cold get Freezing Ray (Scorching Ray), but lessen the damage to 2d4 and add some kind of slow.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________

Problem 3: Recovery Mechanic
**Disclaimer:** I am not convinced that this needs to be fixed, but it is an interesting discussion topic.
Problem: The recovery mechanic of the Wizard and Warlock are significantly better than the Sorcerer
Solution: Allow the Sorcerer to recover some Sorcery Points on a short rest.
Method: Once per day when a Sorcerer finishes a short rest, it can choose to recover half his Sorcerer level worth of Sorcery Points.

At 4th level this is effectively 2 Sorcery Points which is either a 1st level spell or a some metamagic. This would necessitate changing the Sorcerer capstone.

[Giant2005]

I think any issues regarding the Sorc should be sorted out via their own personal mechanic (Metamagic) rather than simply copying abilities from other casters. Homogenization is bad, very, very bad.
If you need to give them something, give them a Metamagic that lets them pick and choose an element type for their spell and give them another (Extremely expensive) one that lets them cast any spell regardless of whether they know it or not.

[Kryx]

I think any issues regarding the Sorc should be sorted out via their own personal mechanic (Metamagic) rather than simply copying abilities from other casters. Homogenization is bad, very, very bad.
(Problem 3)

They already have a recovery mechanic, it just comes at 20 in a really minor form. And the method I laid out in #3 is just an earlier version of it in a more powerful form. As I said above I'm not sure about this one.



If you need to give them something, give them a Metamagic that lets them pick and choose an element type for their spell
(Problem 2)

Their Sorcery Points should not be used to fix the imbalance of spell types.


give them another (Extremely expensive) one that lets them cast any spell regardless of whether they know it or not.
(Problem 1)

This is interesting way to expand spells known via their main mechanic. But again I don't think the Points should be used on a "tax". If it was in addition to a reason number of spells known, sure.

[Giant2005]

If you think Sorc points are too valuable to be used for such things, you could have Sorcer'er dump Sorc points completely and use the variant Spell Points system from the DMG. Instead of using Sorc Points to power Metamagic, you could use Spell Points for both spell slots as well as Metamagic, although that might be a little OP.

[Kryx]

If you think Sorc points are too valuable to be used for such things, you could have Sorcer'er dump Sorc points completely and use the variant Spell Points system from the DMG. Instead of using Sorc Points to power Metamagic, you could use Spell Points for both spell slots as well as Metamagic, although that might be a little OP.

My point in the earlier post is that the Sorc's baseline is too low. Sacrificing its main feature to improve its baseline just makes the situation worse. The baseline should be competitive on its own.

I believe the spells known number is too low. You may not, and that's ok.

My main goal here is seeking suggestions/criticisms from the others who think Sorcerers are slightly underpowered.

[Person_Man]

Just wondering, how many games have you played with a Sorcerer in the group? I've played a lot in a group with other full casters, and its been my observation that the Dragon Sorcerer is fine as written. (Haven't seen Wild Magic in a real game, and I hate it conceptually anyway).

Yes the Sorcerer is less flexible then the Wizard, Bard, Druid, or Cleric. But the lack of flexibility is important, because it allows the DM to craft encounters that the Sorcerer can't automatically solve with the right spell + metamagic.

[Dalebert]

If you think Sorc points are too valuable to be used for such things, you could have Sorcer'er dump Sorc points completely and use the variant Spell Points system from the DMG. Instead of using Sorc Points to power Metamagic, you could use Spell Points for both spell slots as well as Metamagic, although that might be a little OP.


I think any issues regarding the Sorc should be sorted out via their own personal mechanic (Metamagic) rather than simply copying abilities from other casters. Homogenization is bad, very, very bad.
If you need to give them something, give them a Metamagic that lets them pick and choose an element type for their spell and give them another (Extremely expensive) one that lets them cast any spell regardless of whether they know it or not.

I feel like the point of these changes is balance to get sorcerers more in line with other classes. They got carried away with homogenization in 4e IMHO, but consistency and balance between the classes is not bad. In general, they've done a pretty good job of balancing the classes and still giving them a lot of individual flavor. Every class seems to get some nice boost at 3rd, 6th, 10th, etc. Every class should get something for a short rest. The sorcerer really doesn't until capstone. Wizards and locks get spells. Bards get inspirations. It makes perfect since for sorcerers to get SPs. It fits.

I feel like the changes you're proposing are not in line with the structure of classes and are really dramatic such that it would be hard to tell if it's balanced. All the spellcasters have a consistent spell slot list now.


Just wondering, how many games have you played with a Sorcerer in the group? I've played a lot in a group with other full casters, and its been my observation that the Dragon Sorcerer is fine as written. (Haven't seen Wild Magic in a real game, and I hate it conceptually anyway).


Yes the Sorcerer is less flexible then the Wizard, Bard, Druid, or Cleric. But the lack of flexibility is important, because it allows the DM to craft encounters that the Sorcerer can't automatically solve with the right spell + metamagic.

He should definitely be less flexible than a wizard since wizards are also all about spellcasting, but I don't see why he should be less flexible than a bard when bards get SO much on top of being full casters and casting spells from a fixed list is all a sorcerer can do, albeit well with metamagic. I agree you don't want all encounters instantly solvable but I don't see how giving a sorcerer a few more spells would do that. If so, then you're going to have that problem with the other full casters and I don't know why that doesn't bother you as much. MM generally doesn't make spells more flexible. It just makes them hit harder or faster.

I think a sign of a problem in class design is when people are always picking the same options. Maybe it works out fine balance-wise but it means all people of that class end up largely the same. The case with sorcerers is dragonblooded and fire-based. The other energy types and wild magic need some lovin'.

I like OP's suggestion of offering specific spells in line with the sorcerer's origin as a good compromise. Maybe offer a couple choices at each spell level and let the sorcerer pick one from that list of a level he can cast at certain levels in his advancement-1st, 3rd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th, for instance. It wouldn't necessarily have to be exactly two per level as long as it was close and as long as the total spells were the same on all lists.

Maybe a good capstone would be to have a certain spell or two that would always be cast with a metamagic for one point less (possibly free for one-point MMs), again inspired by the wizard's capstone but with a sorcerer flavor.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I like the short-rest recovery mechanic. I may use that. It's not as powerful as the wizard/land druid recovery, but it doesn't need to be.

With the standard PHB rules, a Wizard using recovery would get slightly more spell slots in a day than a Sorc who turned all their MM points into spell slots. With a small recovery mechanic for a Sorc, he'd pull slightly ahead of the wizard, and it would give Sorcs a reason to take a short rest.

[SharkForce]

minor side note: you can upgrade lower level spells known into higher level spells known. sorcerers do not in fact suffer from a lack of high level spells known in particular (rather, they suffer from lack of spells known in general).

the main difficulty imo is that metamagic is basically their main feature. they don't really have a lot to the class other than that; the list of spells they can know is drastically reduced (and the spells they want to know most are typically not on it, most likely deliberately), their path features are relatively a minor thing compared to other full casters, and their spells known is terrible (as someone else pointed out, it's basically worse than a paladin's number of spells prepared, and the paladin can change theirs as needed to boot).

the reason that's difficult is simple: metamagic is a variable that can be applied to basically any spell they learn. which means that any spell can potentially go from a carefully crafted spell designed to have drawbacks, to having those drawbacks disappear or be drastically reduced. that hasn't really happened in a big way yet (though twinned haste is an oft-mentioned sorcerers-only ability), but it feels like the design team are scared stiff that it will and so they were extremely hesitant to give the sorcerer many cool toys.

all that said, they're still a full caster, which means that while they are imo the least impressive caster they're still better off than most non-casters.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

As to the re-fluffing other color dragon Sorcs, that should be hashed out between DM and player. But giving the other elements some more spells is worthwhile, especially Acid and Poison. Fire should get the most, as it is the most resisted element, but re-fluffing some elemental spells so that the Sorc gets at least 1 spell of it's chosen element for every second spell level would be good.

Also, I don't feel like sorcs need more spells known. It seems like an uncreative way to improve the class.

[Dalebert]

the reason that's difficult is simple: metamagic is a variable that can be applied to basically any spell they learn. which means that any spell can potentially go from a carefully crafted spell designed to have drawbacks, to having those drawbacks disappear or be drastically reduced. that hasn't really happened in a big way yet (though twinned haste is an oft-mentioned sorcerers-only ability), but it feels like the design team are scared stiff that it will and so they were extremely hesitant to give the sorcerer many cool toys.

Makes perfect sense, but isn't that more an issue with what spells are on their list than how many they can know? Like you said, twinned haste is awesome in any situation pretty much. I still don't see how MM makes them more flexible. And as long as you are conscientious of what spells they can know (due to MM shenanigans) is it a big deal to let know know a few more?

[Kryx]

Just wondering, how many games have you played with a Sorcerer in the group? I've played a lot in a group with other full casters, and its been my observation that the Dragon Sorcerer is fine as written. (Haven't seen Wild Magic in a real game, and I hate it conceptually anyway).

Yes the Sorcerer is less flexible then the Wizard, Bard, Druid, or Cleric. But the lack of flexibility is important, because it allows the DM to craft encounters that the Sorcerer can't automatically solve with the right spell + metamagic.

I have not seen nearly enough of the Sorcerer in play to make a judgement call, but that's why I'm here to receive feedback. :smallsmile:



I feel like the point of these changes is balance to get sorcerers more in line with other classes. They got carried away with homogenization in 4e IMHO, but consistency and balance between the classes is not bad. In general, they've done a pretty good job of balancing the classes and still giving them a lot of individual flavor.

Exactly this.


Every class seems to get some nice boost at 3rd, 6th, 10th, etc. Every class should get something for a short rest. The sorcerer really doesn't until capstone. Wizards and locks get spells. Bards get inspirations. It makes perfect since for sorcerers to get SPs. It fits.

I agree it fits. I'm concerned about power due to my lack of knowledge with metamagic. Maybe metamagic's power is the tradeoff for less recovery? Or maybe the features of other classes is the tradeoff for metamagic? I lean toward the later, but my knowledge isn't extensive.


I think a sign of a problem in class design is when people are always picking the same options. Maybe it works out fine balance-wise but it means all people of that class end up largely the same. The case with sorcerers is dragonblooded and fire-based. The other energy types and wild magic need some lovin'.

Again, agreed. The archetypes should be like the classes, but on a smaller scale. They should present similarly powered, but different flavor/mechanical options.


I like OP's suggestion of offering specific spells in line with the sorcerer's origin as a good compromise. Maybe offer a couple choices at each spell level and let the sorcerer pick one from that list of a level he can cast at certain levels in his advancement-1st, 3rd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th, for instance. It wouldn't necessarily have to be exactly two per level as long as it was close and as long as the total spells were the same on all lists.

For Dragon Magic I think limiting the choice to 1 in most cases is the right choice for flavor purposes (unless there are multiple of the same damage type in 1 lvl). For wild magic I think it can be between 2 without worry.

The question I'm weighing is: How much to give? Any suggestions here? I think splitting the two 1st level spells is important for dipping purposes. I could expand these up to lvl 17 which would give a total of 25 known. Wizards automatically know 44 (not including cantrips or any spells learned). I don't think 25 would be a worry. What do you think? Slightly better than the Bard, but Bard gets to choose from ANY list for 6 of them. Here is the progression I have right now:


Level
Default Spells Known
Spells Gained from the Bloodline
Total Spells Known


1
2
1
3


1
3
1
5


3
4
1
7


4
5

8


5
6
1
10


6
7

11


7
8
1
13


8
9

14


9
10
1
16


10
11

17


11
12
1
19


12
12

19


13
13
1
21


14
13

21


15
14
1
23


16
14

23


17
15

24


18
15

24


19
15
1
25


20
15

25





Maybe a good capstone would be to have a certain spell or two that would always be cast with a metamagic for one point less (possibly free for one-point MMs), again inspired by the wizard's capstone but with a sorcerer flavor.

It sounds decent, but a bit too carbon copied. I liked to see something unique for Sorcs.








Also, I don't feel like sorcs need more spells known. It seems like an uncreative way to improve the class.


Here is the problem:


their spells known is terrible (as someone else pointed out, it's basically worse than a paladin's number of spells prepared, and the paladin can change theirs as needed to boot).


At 20 paladins can prepare ~13-15 spells (Half level + Cha). And they can swap theirs out. A half (or a 4th caster by old edition terms) has as many spells as a sorc? psssh..

[SharkForce]

that sounds good, right up until someone makes a bard with 3+ sorcerer levels and suddenly you've got metamagic and can know almost any spell in the game.

edit: blast, ninja'd. should've quoted (this is in response the post *two* above this one :P )

[Dalebert]

that sounds good, right up until someone makes a bard with 3+ sorcerer levels and suddenly you've got metamagic and can know almost any spell in the game.

Good point, though that's a problem with multiclassing in general and nothing to do with the class. Consider this--a warlock has an invocation to cast Bane once per day using a spell slot, presumably because they think it's overpowered to just add it to the warlock spell list and let them cast it every short rest. Take ONE level of bard, and it's now on your spell list as a warlock to cast as often as you want. It's better than getting a free invocation because the invocation is once per day, and it comes packaged with an extra skill 3 other spells known that can be really hand, two first level spell slots, and bardic inspiration.

Wouldn't it make more sense to make the class more appealing on its own so one doesn't feel the need to (necessarily) multiclass? If you want to fix potential multiclassing abuse, that might deserve its own thread.

I wouldn't necessarily give them more spells than a bard. Maybe as many via origin spells. The problem with giving them a fixed list is being pigeonholed into trying to pick specific ones of specific levels from an already limited spell list. If you add to their list, you have to be cautious that MM doesn't make it broken.

[SharkForce]

that warlock invocation sucks, and almost nobody will ever choose it in any situation (for that matter, i doubt there's a huge lineup of people desperately rushing over to bard to pick up the bane spell either - though that's not to say there aren't people looking to multiclass bard and warlock, just saying that they're probably not doing so for the bane spell :P )

in contrast, metamagic is quite good. honestly, i feel like it probably *should* be available as a feat much like the battle master maneuvers... except that then, what does sorcerer have left? (in other words, the only reason i can come up with for it to not be a feat is that it takes away the only really cool toy that sorcerers have at all).

[Dalebert]

that warlock invocation sucks, and almost nobody will ever choose it in any situation (for that matter, i doubt there's a huge lineup of people desperately rushing over to bard to pick up the bane spell either - though that's not to say there aren't people looking to multiclass bard and warlock, just saying that they're probably not doing so for the bane spell :P )

I agree, so again it's a problem with the class that encourages multiclassing to fix the problem. I think all those warlock abilities that say "once per day using a spell slot" should just drop the "using a spell slot" part and be once per day abilities. Those invocations should be there to help a lock make up for very limited slots and give a little extra umph during extra tough or long battles when other classes would just be dipping into their larger pool of spell slots to get them through it. But I digress from the subject of this thread.


in contrast, metamagic is quite good. honestly, i feel like it probably *should* be available as a feat much like the battle master maneuvers... except that then, what does sorcerer have left? (in other words, the only reason i can come up with for it to not be a feat is that it takes away the only really cool toy that sorcerers have at all).

Disagree here. At least if people have to dip three levels, they're paying a heavy price for something that could get a little broken with their broader spell list, putting it more on par with the higher level abilities they're delaying or giving up altogether by multiclassing.

[Easy_Lee]

Only two things I think need to be buffed:

More non-fire damaging spells (affects all arcane casters, not just sorcerers)
More draconic origins, because I want force dragon sorcerers and sorcerers descended from non-evil dragons

Sorcerers are the only class that can haste two targets at once (twinned haste), and it works with many other concentration spells. Metamagic, especially quicken, lets them nova hard when they need to.

And if they do take quicken and use it on a cantrip that has charisma damage (draconic origin or two levels warlock for repelling agonizing EB), it gets crazy. They can out-damage everybody for X rounds per day, where X is however many sorcerery points they can muster. Plus, their ability to turn spell slots into sorcery points is fantastic.

Sorcerer lacks versatility, but nobody else can blow crap up as well.

[Kryx]

I wouldn't necessarily give them more spells than a bard. Maybe as many via origin spells.

The problem is Bard gets more spells at later levels. And if you only do the early levels for sorc bloodlines then they have still just as few 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells (1 each, or 2 if you did bloodline all the way).



Spell level
Bard Known
Sorc Known


6th
1
1


7th
3
1


8th
1
1


9th
3
1



Which means if you did bloodlines to the maximum the sorc would get just as many known (at lower level if the bard doesn't select any lower level spells)

[SharkForce]

The problem is Bard gets many spells at later levels. And if you only do the early levels for sorc then they have still just as few 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells (1 each, or 2 if you did bloodline all the way).

you can upgrade one spell slot every time you level up. if you wanted, you could have 3 level 6 spells known, 3 level 7, 3 level 8, 4 level 9, and only 2 spells from level 1-5.

edit: correction, you could have 2 of 6-8, and 4 of 9.


Additionally, when you gain a level in this class,
you can choose one o f the sorcerer spells you know
and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer
spell list, which also must be o f a level for which you
have spell slots.

i mean, that would be an absolutely *terrible* idea (mostly because you only have a handful of high level spell slots anyways), but you *could* do it if you wanted to.

(edit: this isn't quite as bad an idea with 5 in the lower level slots, but i'm still not convinced it's remotely a good idea to ignore low-level slots, which you can create and which you have many of, in favour of high level slots, which you don't have many of and can't create, and which can be used to cast upscaled lower level spells anyways).

[Ashrym]

Trading 4 spell slots of 5th level to be able to cast bane more often seems rather silly to me. Multiclassing requires look at what is being given up for what is being gained. That's a tangent, however.

Sorcerers don't need more versatility (it's available in a synergistic casting stat) because they can rely on skills and equipment etc just like everyone can. Metamagic is that good and the versatility it provides is with each spell known (ie multiple options for casting the spell beyond other classes) helps cover that versatility. The ability to convert spells to spell points and vice-versa increases those options a bit.

The way to create a reason for other draconic colors would be to add more spells to the sorcerer spell list as opposed to spells known so that there is a reason beyond fire but that doesn't require more spells known. Spells known is very restricted for a reason.

The real issue with sorcerers is both subclasses are unappealing to a lot of people. Wild surges or growing scales and wings aren't appealing to me.

Sorcerers also don't need a short rest mechanic just because other classes have short rest mechanics. There are also classes that don't have short rest mechanics, they will take a short rest for hit dice healing, and they can recover spells without needing a short rest in the first place because of sorcery points.

What sorcerers need are more variety of damage spells on the sorcerer spell list and more subclasses.

[Dalebert]

Trading 4 spell slots of 5th level to be able to cast bane more often seems rather silly to me. Multiclassing requires look at what is being given up for what is being gained. That's a tangent, however.

Obviously, but 4 4th level slots? I don't know how you got there. If you mean not getting to 4 slots of 5th level spells until one level later (18 instead of 17) because you dipped one level of bard, I suppose that's true. Most games won't even go that far. What's more relevant is everything else from your main class being pushed back a level, access to higher level spells and so on. Still, locks only have 2 slots all the way until 10th and that one level dip gives them a couple more slots and a LOT of other stuff already mentioned so I won't repeat them. There's definitely a price to level dipping and it won't suit everyone but the choice is far from "silly". If extra Banes was all you got, then I would agree.

[Kryx]

you can upgrade one spell slot every time you level up.

This is true. I actually assumed you couldn't choose a higher level. Then I think 21 spells known with the list I have above is enough.


Sorcerers also don't need a short rest mechanic just because other classes have short rest mechanics. There are also classes that don't have short rest mechanics, they will take a short rest for hit dice healing, and they can recover spells without needing a short rest in the first place because of sorcery points.

They already have a short rest mechanic. It just sucks. 4 points at level 20 for a short rest and none beforehand is silly. I feel like half level may be too much when looking at MM though.


What sorcerers need are more variety of damage spells on the sorcerer spell list and more subclasses.

That would be great, yes.

[Ashrym]

Obviously, but 4 4th level slots? I don't know how you got there. If you mean not getting to 4 slots of 5th level spells until one level later (18 instead of 17) because you dipped one level of bard, I suppose that's true. Most games won't even go that far. What's more relevant is everything else from your main class being pushed back a level, access to higher level spells and so on. Still, locks only have 2 slots all the way until 10th and that one level dip gives them a couple more slots and a LOT of other stuff already mentioned so I won't repeat them. There's definitely a price to level dipping and it won't suit everyone but the choice is far from "silly". If extra Banes was all you got, then I would agree.
It's from the warlock capstone that gets lost with a single level of anything. A single level of bard doesn't gain much but an additional 4 spell slots outside of needing a short rest is nice.

Bard dip of 1 level opens up spells known and a skill proficiency but that's not worth the warlock capstone even with d6 inspiration and 2 1st level spell slots per day. Musical instrument proficiency doesn't tip that over.

3 bard levels, on the other hand, opens up the skill, spells known, more spells per day, armor and shield (valor), expertise, jack-of-all-trades, and bonus short rest healing. That's at progression cost, capstone (4 slots once per day), an ASI, and an invocation. I think that is a better trade off.

My point was there's more loss to consider than some previous editions.

[Dalebert]

It's from the warlock capstone that gets lost with a single level of anything. A single level of bard doesn't gain much but an additional 4 spell slots outside of needing a short rest is nice.

Well, admittedly we're digressing into personal preference here, but that capstone is such a joke to me. If you have a full minute with no conflict, you probably have an hour. More importantly, it's at level 20. Besides not believing I will ever play a game that gets there, even if you do, it's going to be a long time before you get there--a bird in hand vs. two in the bush. Honestly, I would never play a lock past lvl 17. There's nothing remotely comparable to 3 levels in a different class at that point IMHO. I struggle with justifying any levels after 11th, maybe 12th. At least you finally get a 3rd spell slot at 11 and 2 is painful to that point. I'm not planning to decide that until (unless?) I get near there. I also need to find out where my DM stands on what Create thrall actually entails because the charmed condition seems to be very vaguely defined and many people interpret it as a fairly weak condition. High level spells are nice but I'm still not sure one specific spell once a day, every two levels, compares to what I could get from early progression in another class. And at that point, I would have most of the invocations that I really care about so the extra invocations aren't that appealing.

These are issues with the warlock though. They need better invocation choices so people don't always pick the same ones and have a reason to want all 8. They shouldn't, it seems, have far more spell choices than a sorcerer with invocations to boot. There, I brought it back on topic. :smallbiggrin:

[Ashrym]

Well, admittedly we're digressing into personal preference here, but that capstone is such a joke to me. If you have a full minute with no conflict, you probably have an hour. More importantly, it's at level 20. Besides not believing I will ever play a game that gets there, even if you do, it's going to be a long time before you get there--a bird in hand vs. two in the bush. Honestly, I would never play a lock past lvl 17. There's nothing remotely comparable to 3 levels in a different class at that point IMHO. I struggle with justifying any levels after 11th, maybe 12th. At least you finally get a 3rd spell slot at 11 and 2 is painful to that point. I'm not planning to decide that until (unless?) I get near there. I also need to find out where my DM stands on what Create thrall actually entails because the charmed condition seems to be very vaguely defined and many people interpret it as a fairly weak condition. High level spells are nice but I'm still not sure one specific spell once a day, every two levels, compares to what I could get from early progression in another class. And at that point, I would have most of the invocations that I really care about so the extra invocations aren't that appealing.

These are issues with the warlock though. They need better invocation choices so people don't always pick the same ones and have a reason to want all 8. They shouldn't, it seems, have far more spell choices than a sorcerer with invocations to boot. There, I brought it back on topic. :smallbiggrin:

On a short rest mechanic and the two short rests standard warlocks have six spell slots of the highest level available and twice what other casters have in that respect. With better at-wills and invocations they aren't struggling, in my experience. I found they get by on one short rest and two is pretty good.

I wouldn't bother going to a high level warlock without the capstone because it's not true that the character can take an hour if he can take a minute. That can be used when no rest opportunities are available at all.

I definitely agree that there needs to be more invocations. It's too easy to splash warlock, in my opinion, for the warlock / sorcerer combo.

[Dalebert]

On a short rest mechanic and the two short rests standard warlocks have six spell slots of the highest level available and twice what other casters have in that respect. With better at-wills and invocations they aren't struggling, in my experience. I found they get by on one short rest and two is pretty good.

We're still way off topic, but I have elaborated elsewhere the problem with locks. 2nd paragraph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18518979&postcount=54).

[Ashrym]

We're still way off topic, but I have elaborated elsewhere the problem with locks. 2nd paragraph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18518979&postcount=54).

You missed the part where most spell casters are still using cantrips most of the time for combat and warlocks provide the best attack cantrip option with eldritch blast and agonizing blast. While being able to blow through several spells quickly is nice to have as an option, it's still blowing lower level spells instead of the highest level spells that are still important, and it means that other caster is lacking spells to use at other times. The warlock will continue to have high level spell slots available when other casters will not because they are the highest levels available and they will come back as the best recovery option available. Any other time and the warlock will still have cantrips and invocations that can also be cast at-will.

Mage armor, levitate, speak with animals, detect magic, false life, disguise self, silent image, jump, and speak with dead are all at-will spells available to warlocks when they only have 2 spell slots per short rest. It's easy enough to add agonizing blast and misty visions at second level; and, even though the spell selection is limited, cast more spells per day then any other caster.

A warlock who takes chain has a pretty good tool for lower levels to cover things. A warlock who takes blade is going to melee anyway and not see negative impact; he might fiendish vigor at will. A warlock who takes tome will add 3 extra cantrips from any class and add rituals from any class and still adds at-will spells.

There are enough at-will spells in the invocations to make up for spell slots and the spell slots are still a going to recover better than other recovery methods. Not all the spell invocations are good but silent image, alter self, levitate, and arcane eye eventually at-will do wonders for stretching out spell slots. Only looking at spell slots is missing more than half the class. Sorcerers meet a completely different design goal where the sorcerer burns out faster with more effectiveness in casting instead of that sustainability that the warlock offers. Neither class is suffering; they just work differently and we see those differences.

[Dalebert]

In order to try to keep this thread on topic, I responded in a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388058-Warlocks-the-2-through-11-stretch&p=18526885).

[Kryx]

Dalebert, have you experimented with the recovery mechanic? I've decided not to implement it for now (we're pretty low level so I have no idea how powerful metamagic can be). I'd love to have any input here from anyone who has had a Sorcerer at a medium level in a party with a Warlock or Wizard.



I've also created an Angelic Bloodline for a different Sorcerer. It's essentially the same as the Dragon Blodline.

The main difference is that angelic is a mix of damage and some CC so I modified the level 6 slightly:

Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals radiant damage, add your Charisma modifier to that damage.
At the same time, you can spend 1 sorcery point to gain resistance to that damage type for 1 hour.
In addition Spells such as Banishment or Hold Person are cast at +1 DC

It's obviously poorly defined which spells get +1 DC - I tried finding some keyword to use, but it doesn't seem like those exist. If anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears.


Angelic Bloodlne


Sorcerer Level
Spell Level
Origin Spell


1st
1st
Guiding Bolt


2nd
1st
Feather Fall


3rd
2nd
Hold Person


5th
3rd
Blinding Smite **


7th
4th
Guardian of Faith or Banishment


9th
5th
Destructive Wave



** Blinding Smite is a ranged version of the spell. It is an action to cast and is a spell attack with a range of 150 ft. It deals 8d6 damage and has the same chance of blinding. I based the damage on Fireball and Lightning bolt, both of which are AoE while Blinding Smite is a single target and has a CC that can be overcome every round.

[Dalebert]

Dalebert, have you experimented with the recovery mechanic? I've decided not to implement it for now (we're pretty low level so I have no idea how powerful metamagic can be).

I haven't. So far I haven't run a 5e game yet; just 2.0, 3.5, and PF. I'm planning to run a sort of Intro to 5e game with a selection of pre-generated 3rd level chars. I've only played in games of 3rd and 4th levels.


I'd love to have any input here from anyone who has had a Sorcerer at a medium level in a party with a Warlock or Wizard.

Seconded. As I conceded, I'm running purely on speculation at this point and I just feel like I would be frustrated playing a sorcerer. I have respect for experience and some folks are saying that sorcerers seem fine at higher levels.

[QUOTE=Mellack;18540683]I've also created an Angelic Bloodline for a different Sorcerer. It's essentially the same as the Dragon Blodline.

I'm a big fan of this. The classes seem to follow a sort of formula that makes new classes and subclasses reasonably easy to do to offer more choices so things don't get boring after a while. I feel a need to revamp wild magic bloodlines so that it's random but that sorcerers still have a sense of some influence on the randomness via growing proficiency prior to their capstone. I also feel like the degree of badness and goodness of the effect should scale better with level. The totally random chart that's ignorant of level just feels lazy and sloppy.

[Theodoxus]

In a no multiclass game, would it be OP to allow sorcerers access to their entire spell list, but generate their spells known list on a daily basis? (Working like a divine caster)

If there's no dipping shenanigans going on, and the sorcerer would have to pick their spells as soon as they finished a long rest - so no 'saving a slot for just the perfect occasion' nonsense, it seems on paper to work.

I suspect that most sorcerer lists are pretty cookie-cutter anyway, with a few alternates based on personal likes or campaign needs - so changing out spell lists probably wouldn't be a regular occurrence, but it does eliminate the whole number of spells known problem.

I'm considering doing this in a no-MC game... or, go with the SP recharge (1/2 sorcerer level) on a short rest - but not both.

[Dalebert]

In a no multiclass game, would it be OP to allow sorcerers access to their entire spell list, but generate their spells known list on a daily basis? (Working like a divine caster)

That would make them better than wizards in some respects, and in the one way that really defines wizards--spell selection. So I would say that's a clear "yes".

[Theodoxus]

Except they have separate and distinct lists. Wizards have more utility than sorcerers. While sorcerers have more blasts. If this was 3.5, I'd agree with you. But since sorcs are limited in how useful they can be out of combat, I don't think they'll be stepping on a lot of wizard toes.

Plus, wizards would get more slots, depending on how many short rests the group has access to. The wizard would be justified in using more higher level slots than the sorcerer in nearly all cases.

[Dalebert]

Except they have separate and distinct lists.

Sure, but giving sorcerers access to every spell on their list? They'd go from having access to 15 spells at level 20 to have access to 20 spells at level 1! That's just how many 1st level spells are on their list. Wizards have to go out and find new spells and spend considerable money adding them to their spellbook. It's more than OP. It's nuts. Even with their somewhat more restrictive list, they'd be severely outclassing wizards immediately and at no expenditure of time and money.

[SharkForce]

i'd still rather be the wizard. but sorcerers don't really need help. they're not as crazy strong as the wizard, but they're still strong.

[Demonicattorney]

I don't actually think Dragon Sorcs are under powered at all. They have the best save (CON), they essentially get Mage Armor and Fly for free (though alittle late). Elemental Affinity does some nice extra damage over a comparable Wizard, and the resist elements portion is almost like another spell. They have more HP than Wizards. The only thing I would change is make sorcerous restoration, their capstone ability, be given much earlier, like level 10 or so.

[ImperiousLeader]

Since Metamagic is a core feature of the Sorcerer, if I wanted to buff the Sorcerer, I'd build along those lines. For example, this added class feature.

Arcane Thesis: At levels 13, 15, and 17, pick a Sorcerer spell known by you. The cost to apply a metamagic effect on that spell is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 0. You can only gain this benefit once per casting.

For Example: Hennet has chosen Fireball as one of his Arcane Thesis spells. He can Quicken the spell for only 1 Sorcery point, but must still spend 1 more Sorcery point to Empower that same Fireball. Later that battle, he casts Fireball and can Empower it without expending a Sorcery Point.

Or, alternatively:

Spell Augmentation: At levels 13, 15, and 17, choose a spell known by you and a Metamagic effect you know that only costs 1 sorcery point. That spell is permanently modified with that metamagic effect, without costing sorcery points. Twin Spell can only be used with cantrips. When casting one of your augmented spells, you may apply an additional Metamagic effect, paying the sorcery points as normal.

For Example: Hennet has augmented Fireball with Careful Spell. Whenever he casts Fireball, it is considered a Careful Spell. He may also expend 3 Sorcery Points to also apply Heighten Spell to his Fireball.

[Dalebert]

Arcane Thesis & Spell Augmentation

I suggested something similar but as a capstone ability, and that's because I think sorcerers should have an opportunity to get some spell points back on a rest the way wizards get spell slots. That seems very powerful to get so much earlier. I'm going to hold off on that in my games though because I haven't really seen a sorcerer in action yet and I don't know how obscene MM is going to be.

I feel like the limited spells known is the main issue when you compare them to every other caster, all of whom get a lot of other goodies to make them more interesting on top of knowing more spells than a sorcerer when sorcerers are focused on spell-casting almost exclusively. 15 at level 20 just seems painfully focused and given that their spell list is already limited with MM in mind, I don't see what's game-breaking about giving just a little more versatility in spells available from their already limited list. I don't think they need power. I think they need just a smidge more versatility specifically in the realm of spell-casting, which they are already so focused on.

So for now, I'm just going to expand their spells known by giving them access to certain spells at various levels in line with their chosen bloodlines, probably amounting to 7 by the end of their career that must be chosen from a specific list. I'm not going to try to pick exactly one or two spells from each level. That's just too hard to get exactly right given the list available.

[Kryx]

I suggested something similar but as a capstone ability, and that's because I think sorcerers should have an opportunity to get some spell points back on a rest the way wizards get spell slots. That seems very powerful to get so much earlier. I'm going to hold off on that in my games though because I haven't really seen a sorcerer in action yet and I don't know how obscene MM is going to be.

We both came to the same conclusion that the MM factor is too big of an unknown to add more spell points. Hopefully someone eventually comes along who has some experience.


I'm not going to try to pick exactly one or two spells from each level. That's just too hard to get exactly right given the list available.

How else would you plan on making the spells thematic to the bloodline? It sounds very undefined.

I think a limited choice (1 or 2 options) is the best way to handle it. 1 could cause unbalanced bloodlines like we saw in PF, but as long as you choose decent spells or provide 2 options then it isn't an issue imo.

[Infernally Clay]

Why not simply allow them to learn more? Bards have a class feature as a member of the College of Lore that lets them grab a few extra spells known from other classes. Sorcerers could have the same thing, perhaps tied to their sorcery point system (expending a number of sorcery points per spell level to emulate the spell of another class they've memorised or seen recently).

[SharkForce]

may or may not break anything as a house rule, but i will point out that the sorcerer was very precisely denied access to certain broad categories of spells (as well as a few specific other spells) by the designers. you may or may not agree with their decision, but you should be aware of it before you go mucking around with it.

[ImperiousLeader]

I don't think giving the Sorcerer more spells, or even adding new spells to their list will "break" the Sorcerer. But I feel it's a kludge. I'd rather leave the Sorcerer as more of a specialist caster. What I'd like is to give them more metamagic abilities and maybe more spell slots (maybe making it cheaper to create spell slots from Sorcery points? Like it's always level +1 points).

Still, another idea:

Level 10: Expanded Knowledge
- At 10th level, pick one of these three options:
1. Gain one additional Metamagic Effect
2. Gain 2 additional Sorcerer Spells
3. Gain 1 spell of 5th level or lower from any spell list.

[Easy_Lee]

Don't know about you guys, but I think sorcerer is pretty powerful as-is. I'm more worried about warlocks.

[Dalebert]

may or may not break anything as a house rule, but i will point out that the sorcerer was very precisely denied access to certain broad categories of spells (as well as a few specific other spells) by the designers. you may or may not agree with their decision, but you should be aware of it before you go mucking around with it.

I agree as my previous post have said. I understand why their list is limited. I'm not considering giving them access to spells outside the sorcerer list. I just think they should have a few more spells known from within that list.


Don't know about you guys, but I think sorcerer is pretty powerful as-is. I'm more worried about warlocks.

I don't have an issue with their power. I have issue with their versatility. I know it's not supposed to compete with a wizard but it should be reasonably competitive with casters like bards and warlocks, both of whom have quite a range of other abilities besides spell-casting and yet are considerably more versatile than a sorcerer even in that respect.

As it is, and particularly at lower levels, it seems like their choices are so few as to seem like they will have to choose either reasonable offensive choices or reasonable defensive choices. And considering many MM can only be applied to certain spells, that makes it even tougher. I just imagine things could get boring and/or frustrating rather quickly as they have 2 or 3 "tricks" they just do all the time, e.g. twinned haste--effective but boring.

[SharkForce]

*you* feel that they should be versatile. i'm gonna go so far as to say that the designers of the game very obviously didn't feel that sorcerers should be particularly versatile at all.

[Ashrym]

I don't have an issue with their power. I have issue with their versatility. I know it's not supposed to compete with a wizard but it should be reasonably competitive with casters like bards and warlocks, both of whom have quite a range of other abilities besides spell-casting and yet are considerably more versatile than a sorcerer even in that respect.

Bards were designed to be versatile because of the jack-of-all-trades aspect. That was part of the design feedback during playtest from long before they even made it into the playtest. Page 51 of the PHB states in the bard write up that sheer versatility is their greatest strength.

Bards don't have a lot of raw output even when they spend secrets on it.

Believing that sorcerers need to be as versatile as bards just because bards are versatile isn't solid reasoning.

Warlocks don't have a lot of raw output either outside of eldritch blast.

Sorcerers use their spells more effectively, and that versatility was the trade off for strong features in metamagic and sorcery points.

[Easy_Lee]

*you* feel that they should be versatile. i'm gonna go so far as to say that the designers of the game very obviously didn't feel that sorcerers should be particularly versatile at all.

This, in a nutshell.

Sorcerers are capable of putting out more damage than just about anyone in a single round, and they can do it many times a day. They have a limited spell list, but unmatched versatility in the ways they use those spells, due to metamagic. If sorcerers had a spell list to rival a metamagic-less full caster like a bard, then sorcerers would be overpowered.

The easiest way to tell if a caster is overpowered or underpowered is to compare it to a wizard:

Are there reasons to play a wizard over this class? Yes, versatility, larger spell pool.
Are there reasons to play this class over a wizard? Yes, blow **** the hell up and metamagic.

I think sorcerers are fine. The only two things I really want are a larger variety of evocation spells, so sorcerers can focus on more than just fire, and force-dragon-lineage sorcerers.

[Dalebert]

*you* feel that they should be versatile.

No, definitely not anything approaching versatile. Just marginally more than they are now in the one thing that they are focused on--spells. As it is, when they are level 20, they won't even be capable of knowing 2 spells per spell level. That's just cruel. Can we please stop exaggerating what is a very moderate position?

And in case it hasn't been clear, I'm not talking about giving them access to a broader list of spells; just letting them know a few more from their list. If I did ever consider that, I would be extremely cautious because I understand the reasoning for restricting their list.

Even if their spells known column matched a bard, all bards have an array of other abilities and a bigger spell list to pick from. Then lore bards would still know more spells that aren't even restricted to the bard list. And valor bards would know as many spells on top of being a gish. And obviously wizards would wipe the floor with them just on spell versatility plus being able cast more spells every day even before you compare other class features outside of spell casting. How is that not clearly more versatile?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Yes, the Sorcs are less versatile. But some of believe that's working as intended. They're powerful specialists. Bards are notably weaker casters, but have high versatility. Wizards are at a place between the two.

If you want more spells, talk to your DM. What goes on in your game is your game. But again, some of us see no problems with the default number of spells the Sorc gets as they have no trouble performing.

[Dalebert]

On a personal level, I solved this problem by just not playing a sorcerer, so this is mainly about me deciding on my own game's house rules. The fact that I don't want to play one makes me wonder if they need a tweak. That said, there are people who have played more 5e than I and into higher levels and I respect that experience so I won't be making any rash decisions. I will wait and see how it goes. I know of one player who will most likely be playing a sorcerer just for the flavor though she is completely new to 5e.

[Easy_Lee]

On a personal level, I solved this problem by just not playing a sorcerer, so this is mainly about me deciding on my own game's house rules. The fact that I don't want to play one makes me wonder if they need a tweak. That said, there are people who have played more 5e than I and into higher levels and I respect that experience so I won't be making any rash decisions. I will wait and see how it goes. I know of one player who will most likely be playing a sorcerer just for the flavor though she is completely new to 5e.

As a DM, I wanted to prove to my players that blade-pact warlocks were good. So I rolled up a blade-pact warlock one level higher than them, set him up as a boss, and kicked the crap out of their party with him. They only won because I pulled my punches, and I had to intentionally fudge one of their death saving throws. Perhaps you could try something like this with the sorcerer and see what you can come up with.

As a reminder, sorcerers are the only class who can maintain haste on two targets at once (via twinned haste, one spell gains two targets). They're also capable of extreme damage via quickening one spell then casting a cantrip in the same round. Try two quickened twinned firebolts in the same round and see how your players like that one.

[ImperiousLeader]

I do want Sorcerers to be more than just blasters. They're spell specialists, but they should have more than just blasting spells, they're not Warmages. Yes, they need some more variety in damage types in their evocations, but ... Xykon loses some of his iconic spells 5e (No Animate Dead), and that's just not cool.

Breaking down the Sorcerer's spell list by school, we see the following (The number of Wizard spells are included in brackets)
Abjuration: 8 (23)
Conjuration: 19 (31)
Divination: 8 (16)
Enchantment: 14 (19)
Evocation: 29 (40)
Illusion: 14 (27)
Necromancy: 8 (17)
Transmutation: 29 (40)

Most of the spells that Sorcerers don't get make sense to me, ritual spells, spells that require a lot of specific material components. Any spell named after a wizard is gone from the Sorcerer's list, so Evard's Black Tentacles or Melf's Acid Arrow are gone, which ... kinda bothers me. I'm too used to their SRD names and I don't see why Sorcerers can't cast something similar.

Oh, and side note: Telepathy is an Evocation spell?!? :smallconfused:

So, what kinds of new spells (outside of more blasting evocations) should Sorcerers get? And, what kind of spells should Sorcerers get that Wizards might not?

Some of my thoughts:
- Self-only Polymorphs. Sorcerers don't get Shapechange, so I'd like some more focused transmutations, like Dragon Shape.
- Self-only healing magic. I understand not giving Sorcerers and Wizards healing spells (though I don't necessarily agree), but the innate "magic in the blood" nature of Sorcery makes me think they could gain some spells of this nature.
- Blue Magic style abjurations. This might instead be a new Sorcerous Origin, but a Sorcerer being able to copy spells that have been cast on them for a short time intrigues me.
- On that note: Some spells that allow Sorcerers to absorb or consume magic. Maybe a variant Counterspell or Dispel Magic which also grants you some Sorcery points if you successfully counter the spell.

[Easy_Lee]

I do want Sorcerers to be more than just blasters. They're spell specialists, but they should have more than just blasting spells, they're not Warmages.

Warmages is exactly what sorcerers are, traditionally. There's no reason to change that just because some people want to call themselves a sorcerer without actually playing a sorcerer.

If you want metamagic and a different spell list, you're going to need a new class. Adding spells to the sorcerer list is going to remove all reason to play anything else.

[Kryx]

If you want more spells, talk to your DM. What goes on in your game is your game. But again, some of us see no problems with the default number of spells the Sorc gets as they have no trouble performing.

Both Dalebert and I are DMs who think that the Sorcerer is slightly underpowered. So this thread was made to discuss the situation, to receive feedback, and to see if the Sorc can be improved in a moderate way.
Shutting down conversation with the tired "talk to your DM" line isn't helping.


Also, Twinned Haste is not a reason to ignore the rest of the chasis.

[ImperiousLeader]

Warmages is exactly what sorcerers are, traditionally. There's no reason to change that just because some people want to call themselves a sorcerer without actually playing a sorcerer.

If you want metamagic and a different spell list, you're going to need a new class. Adding spells to the sorcerer list is going to remove all reason to play anything else.

Citation please? I admit, my DnD knowledge only dates to 3.5 ... where Sorcerers had the exact same spell list as Wizards, so they most definitely were not just blasters, for that there was the Warmage class. My first Sorcerer in 3.5 didn't even have a direct damage spell, he relied on illusions and enchantments, and his crossbow. My 5e Sorcerer may have Firebolt, but that's it for direct damage, I have silent image and Sleep. Heck, even their spell list in its current form is not all blasting spells, they have nearly as many transmutations.

Admittedly, 4e made them primarily strikers, but even then, they had a strong control element. Besides, a lot of the fun spells never made it into the game.

You can play a 5e Sorcerer already without being a blaster. Subtle Spell, plus some illusions and enchantments can make a cool spy, for example.

Besides, we all know that more spells are going to be added to 5e. Are you suggesting that the Wizard and Cleric aren't going to be getting more spells? Why does the Sorcerer not warrant that?

[Easy_Lee]

Also, Twinned Haste is not a reason to ignore the rest of the chasis.

Twinned haste is a pretty damn big deal. When combined with the ability to twin many other concentration spells and do many other things, it's no wonder why some consider sorcerers to be among the best of the casters. Twinned haste not enough for ya? How about these:

Twinned Hold Person - hold two people at once, like a player
Twinned Crown of Madness - make them fight each other, fight wins itself
Twinned Power Word: Kill - both the big bad and his dragon are dead, especially after you weaken them with some quickened twinned firebolts

What if you go with subtle spell? Let's see what fun you can have with spells that you can cast with nobody having any idea that it was you, all for one sorcery point each:

Sublte Power Word: Kill - the bureaucrat nobody likes drops dead, nobody knows who did it
Subtle Confusion
Subtle Animate Objects / Telekinesis - we have a poltergeist
Subtle Crown of Madness - kill people by forcing them to attack other people and get themselves killed, now that's awesome
Sublte Reverse Gravity - if you can't find ways to have fun, you're not creative enough
Subtle Quickened Sleep - style points

And you can consume unneeded spell slots to regain sorcery points anytime you need some. Just one more useful feature.

Really, sorcerer has the best design of any of the casters in my opinion. It's so clean, so concise, so clear what this class is meant to do. The versatility is in the metamagics; they don't need more than that.

[Dalebert]

As a DM, I wanted to prove to my players that blade-pact warlocks were good. So I rolled up a blade-pact warlock one level higher than them, set him up as a boss, and kicked the crap out of their party with him. They only won because I pulled my punches, and I had to intentionally fudge one of their death saving throws. Perhaps you could try something like this with the sorcerer and see what you can come up with.

You're really only trying to prove a point I've already conceded--that they're powerful. My concerns have been whether they're going to be fun to play, particularly over a long campaign as opposed to a one-shot adventure, which seems to be questionable if they're basically a one or two trick pony.


Shutting down conversation with the tired "talk to your DM" line isn't helping.

Agreed. I am here to discuss concerns I have and either have those concerns alleviated or get validation and sensible suggestions, most likely for my own games. In a thread that clearly about viability of certain house rules it's practically a condescending catch-phrase. Obviously I'm going to talk to my DM if I want to suggest a house rule, but at the moment I'm asking fellow forum members for their thoughts and that doesn't add anything useful. It just comes across as "Discussion over".

Anyway, I'm generally not going to go to my DM and ask for major buffs to my chosen class. It just doesn't seem appropriate. It's fine to ask about little things that don't matter deeply to me but if I need major changes to consider a class worth playing, I'm just going to pick a different one. Like I said, it would mostly likely be for my own games. I'd like players to have plenty of viable choices and I want my game to be fun for everyone. What I might say "This is how I handle it in my games" as a conversation starter. We have a fairly close group of friends who game together and we may very possibly come to a consensus about certain house rules.


So, what kinds of new spells (outside of more blasting evocations) should Sorcerers get? And, what kind of spells should Sorcerers get that Wizards might not?

At the moment I would say none. I don't necessarily have a problem with the list they have to choose from. I haven't given it that much though. At a glance it seemed fine and I understand why it's limited due to MM. It seems like a much tougher argument but you might be able to convince me it's a problem. I do think the ratio of fire spells to other damage types is problematic for dragon-blooded. Anytime the choices are so one-sided as to steer everyone in a general direction, I'd say the choices are flawed. However, my main beef is with how few of those they get to have in their own repertoire. You have some interesting ideas though, like specific kinds of polymorphs, blue magic. I find these intriguing.

[Kryx]

Twinned haste is a pretty damn big deal.

I didn't say it wasn't. It is surely great - probably greater than anything else a Sorcerer could do. But I've never envisioned Sorcs as a buffer - much less a one trick uber buff pony. If that 1 trick is so important it probably warrants an examination imo.



Really, sorcerer has the best design of any of the casters in my opinion. It's so clean, so concise, so clear what this class is meant to do. The versatility is in the metamagics; they don't need more than that.

Thank you for sharing your experience - really. I'm glad to read that people enjoy the class and think it is good per RAW. That's what I'm here for as well: to read the experiences of others.
From my experience I don't feel like adding 6 spells known from a set list based on bloodline adds much power(if any) - simply more versatility that still makes the class less powerful than the Wizard imo. But this has always been my opinion about Sorcs - in every edition.



I am here to discuss concerns I have and either have those concerns alleviated or get validation and sensible suggestions, most likely for my own games. In a thread that clearly about viability of certain house rules it's practically a condescending catch-phrase. Obviously I'm going to talk to my DM if I want to suggest a house rule, but at the moment I'm asking fellow forum members for their thoughts and that doesn't add anything useful. It just comes across as "Discussion over".

I restrained myself from being harsher earlier and I'm glad I did because this eloquently phrases how I feel.

[Fwiffo86]

I didn't read the whole thread. Just saying.

In my humble opinion, the Sorc is a direct response of the spellfire girl from 2nd edition. The sorc is a battery of magical energy, that they can form into selective forms. They have no magical theory training. They simply will what they want to happen. Sort of like a superhero using their powers. Adding additional spells, fluctuating the MM points, or any other solution to a problem that isn't broken seems to be an effort in time wasting.

That is not to say that you don't have the right to do so, you certainly do. I think it fits the theme exceptionally well that the Sorc list is as limited as it is. You are talking about a guy who generates magic energy from will alone, his bloodline, or what have you. He is not weaving together a tapestry of magical threads, or calling on the power of the divine to intercede on his behalf. He is magic, as represented by his ability to change the parameters of the spells he can produce.

Using the spellfire analogy, what's her face absorbed magic energy from spells, and was able to release it in either raw blasts of damage, or weird healing effects as I recall. That was it. Because I believe this is the origin of the Sorc, I can easily see why they have such limited selections. Personally, I would prefer if they didn't actually have "spells" more like effects they could generate. A magic blast for damage. A shield of magic to absorb damage, things like that. Things that aren't defined by spells, aren't used by other casters at all.

That's just my thoughts on it. I don't think they need fixing, because they aren't broken, or lacking. But you may have other ideas.

[Kaiisaxo]

Twinned haste is a pretty damn big deal. When combined with the ability to twin many other concentration spells and do many other things, it's no wonder why some consider sorcerers to be among the best of the casters. Twinned haste not enough for ya? How about these:

Twinned Hold Person - hold two people at once, like a player
Twinned Crown of Madness - make them fight each other, fight wins itself
Twinned Power Word: Kill - both the big bad and his dragon are dead, especially after you weaken them with some quickened twinned firebolts

What if you go with subtle spell? Let's see what fun you can have with spells that you can cast with nobody having any idea that it was you, all for one sorcery point each:

Sublte Power Word: Kill - the bureaucrat nobody likes drops dead, nobody knows who did it
Subtle Confusion
Subtle Animate Objects / Telekinesis - we have a poltergeist
Subtle Crown of Madness - kill people by forcing them to attack other people and get themselves killed, now that's awesome
Sublte Reverse Gravity - if you can't find ways to have fun, you're not creative enough
Subtle Quickened Sleep - style points

And you can consume unneeded spell slots to regain sorcery points anytime you need some. Just one more useful feature.

Really, sorcerer has the best design of any of the casters in my opinion. It's so clean, so concise, so clear what this class is meant to do. The versatility is in the metamagics; they don't need more than that.

First of all. some of your examples are strawmen, you cannot stack multiple metamagics unless they explicitly tell so, as such you cannot twin and quicken, nor subtle and quicken. Second nobody is questioning how powerful Twin can be, Twin is potentially broken, but a single overpowered option isn't enough to say the whole class is powerful, and if it is the excuse to sideline the class into a very narrow niche, it would be best to get rid of it if my sorcerers get to be fun.

And sorcerer = warmage is no fun, 3e clearly allows a sorcerer to be anything you want it to be, you are still a niche caster, but you get to pick the niche, not just mindless blasting. (This is a sore point, the designers didn't ask us what was important as sorcerer players, they just went with whatever preconception they had, and it is a lie that being limited to a blaster is so sorcerers have a niche, because evoker wizards are blasters and still have even more options)

As such I would get rid of twin spell, and remove subtle too, instead pointing that sorcerers don't provide components for sorcerer spells, remove all spells with a costly material component from the sorcerer list, add all simple weapons as proficiencies, add one more spell known at first level, and one more at 18 level. Remove wish from the list, add all wizard spells without a costly component/sans named spells (maybe also restrict certain combat only spells if you may). Add metamagic options like warp area, energy substitution, admixture, delay. All metamagic is more costly for non-sorcerer spells. (clarify that quicken doesn't work for spells measured in minutes or longer)

[Easy_Lee]

First of all. some of your examples are strawmen, you cannot stack multiple metamagics unless they explicitly tell so, as such you cannot twin and quicken, nor subtle and quicken.

You don't need explicit permission to do something. Rather, you need explicit rule in order to prevent you from doing something. This game is not kindergarden, nobody is holding your hand telling you what you can do and saying don't try and be clever or think of anything else.

[Symphony]

You don't need explicit permission to do something. Rather, you need explicit rule in order to prevent you from doing something. This game is not kindergarden, nobody is holding your hand telling you what you can do and saying don't try and be clever or think of anything else.


You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted.

For completeness, I will note that only Empowered Spell specifically notes that it works with other Metamagic options.

[Ashrym]

First of all. some of your examples are strawmen, you cannot stack multiple metamagics unless they explicitly tell so, as such you cannot twin and quicken, nor subtle and quicken. Second nobody is questioning how powerful Twin can be, Twin is potentially broken, but a single overpowered option isn't enough to say the whole class is powerful, and if it is the excuse to sideline the class into a very narrow niche, it would be best to get rid of it if my sorcerers get to be fun.

I didn't see Easy Lee state stacking multiple metamagics in what you quoted. That's a strawman by definition. Did I miss it?


And sorcerer = warmage is no fun, 3e clearly allows a sorcerer to be anything you want it to be, you are still a niche caster, but you get to pick the niche, not just mindless blasting. (This is a sore point, the designers didn't ask us what was important as sorcerer players, they just went with whatever preconception they had, and it is a lie that being limited to a blaster is so sorcerers have a niche, because evoker wizards are blasters and still have even more options)

Warmage is an example used, but sorcerers don't need to be blasters regardless of how many people post that it's what they do. Just taking alter self and enhance ability, a few buffs, and mostly illusions and charms with a few direct damage spells covers a lot of ground.

[Kryx]

I didn't see Easy Lee state stacking multiple metamagics in what you quoted. That's a strawman by definition. Did I miss it?

Here:


Subtle Quickened Sleep - style points

Subtle Spell and Quickened Spell are both metamagic and neither specifies that it can be combined (Only Empowered does).

[Easy_Lee]

Subtle Spell and Quickened Spell are both metamagic and neither specifies that it can be combined (Only Empowered does).

As I recall, neither specifies that they can't be combined either.

[Dark Tira]

As I recall, neither specifies that they can't be combined either.

Page 101:
"You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted."

[Ashrym]

Here:



Subtle Spell and Quickened Spell are both metamagic and neither specifies that it can be combined (Only Empowered does).

Ahh, didn't notice that. You are correct in not combining metamagic, but I don't consider it much of a drawback only using one meta. There are some nice options with the metamagic.

[SharkForce]

if what you're looking for is the 3rd edition sorcerer, my advice is that you should skip out on the 5e sorcerer entirely and try to build a new class from scratch. basically all of the advantages the 3e sorcerer once had have been given to other people or at the very least taken away from the sorcerer.

either that, or make a 5e wizard, cross out the word wizard, and write in the word sorcerer.

[Dalebert]

if what you're looking for is the 3rd edition sorcerer...

I'm not. They seemed kind of pointless.

[Easy_Lee]

Page 101:
"You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted."

Meh, fair enough, still say there's nothing wrong with it.

[sky red hunter]

i'm currently playing a draconic origin sorcerer and it really annoys me that i have neither a spell recovery or sorcery point recovery before cap (which to be honest hardly anyone reaches) before you say i can get spells back by spending sorcery points, thats using the one unique element to this caster for recovery, so the element that makes sorcerers unique has to be burned and sacrificed just for a recovery that other casters get for nothing. on a purely flavour level, how is a person who has to study and learn magic more capable of regeneration than someone it comes naturally to? surely it would naturally recover? as opposed to someone having to learn a specific spell for recovery? as they aren't intuitively attuned to magic like say a sorcerer, can't believe this hasn't been raised as an issue before. a sorcerer should have a lot of power low to mid level, as this makes sense in a natural blossoming of magical power untrained but intuitively known, with limited power and options at higher levels as the more complex magics of the world would require a lot of study even for a sorcerer, thus other casters like wizards would have more access to higher level spells as their magical evolution is study based which lends itself to understanding the complexity of higher level magic.

one solution i toyed with is on a short rest, when a hit dice is rolled, the sorcerer has the option to take half the result in health and restore half their sorcery points, this works both on a mechanical level and a flavour level, that they use the down time to heal and restore their ability to manipulate magic. to negate spamming of this maybe restrict it to the first hit dice rolled and the intention to do the above has to be made before the roll is known.

so a level 4 sorcerer with 16 con (+3) decides to restore sorcery points, they announce this, roll a d6 and get a 3, so they get 3 health and 3 sorcery points back.

again to help against abuse if the above situation resulted in rolling a four, then the higher 'half" would go to health, so 4 health and 3 sorcery points.

some might say that people would then exploit con for sorcerers, but thats not a bad thing, it makes a caster that can soak up damage, on a flavour level i imagine the inmate magic reacting to damage and slowly knitting together its host, and also makes it possible to make a close combat mage utilising touch spells as opposed to being a magic archer, it doesn't allow abuse of multi classing as con doesn't come into multi classing at all.

i also think a sorcerer should one time only at any level where they learn a new spell be allowed to take one spell from any class, but this spell requires one sorcery point to cast, unless its of the elemental affinity of the sorcerer. again flavour wise, who decides how natural magic develops?
i keep seeing people talking about a sorcerers ability to nova in combat, and yes this is possible but currently if you throw your whole hand into one attack your left throwing cantrips for the rest of the battle if it goes on for any length of time. unless you start burning slots to create points or vice versa.

currently a sorcerer is like a candle lit on both ends, burns brightly but burns out quickly.

[zinycor]

As for the spells the sorcerer should get because of his bloodline, I wouldn't give them damaging spells, afterall, what the sorcerer lacks as a caster is the utility of the wizard, I would give them utility spells that they wouldn't otherwise pick.

[Kryx]

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