Feat+Ability Score

[Angelalex242]

Normally, you must choose on or the other, of course.

What happens to balance when you are allowed to choose both?

It has been proposed that every two times you get both adds an 'ECL' to the party.

Is that correct? Or does it over or understate the extra power one gets by having both?

Consider this means treating a level 8 party as though it were level 9 for (assuming everyone would've chosen feats anyway) a +4 to ability scores.

[Easy_Lee]

It makes your players a bit more diverse. They can't go over 20 in their main stats, so it lets them diversify their investments and get more feats (which primarily add options). I did this for my players and just balance it by using the same kind of thing on mobs.

For example, we're playing HotDQ. I had the kobolds rideride ambush drakes into battle so both get advantage from pack tactics at all times. I also gave the dragonclaw they fought a feint attack to guarantee advantage. It's not hard to challenge your players even if they're strong.

Admittedly, sometimes I overdo it. I sent a minotaur skeleton at them before they were ready, and he one-rounded a squishy. In order to keep it from knocking more of them unconscious and likely winning the fight, I gave him a cleave. He did 1d12 to two targets instead of 2d12 to one, giving them an extra round to kill him before he wiped someone else out.

So I think it's fine. Their potential is still limited while the DM's power is infinite.

[Person_Man]

It make MAD builds in particular a bit more powerful/attractive; Paladin (Str/Con/Cha), Barbarian (Str/Dex/Con), Monk (Dex/Con/Wis), and spellcasters that like to use weapons (Str or Dex) instead of Cantrips for their at will attacks.

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with it though. The above MADness exists because of poor design, and doesn't really add to the balance of the overall game.

[Easy_Lee]

I agree with what person_man said. My primary motivation for implementing the rule was so players wanting to play MAD characters could still get feats without becoming sub-optimal.

[One Tin Soldier]

You should note that this will give Fighters proportionally more power than other classes, since they get more ASI's. Meaning that, under the increased ECL idea, you should eventually be treating the fighter as higher level than the rest of the party.

Sounds like it could be fun, though.

[Angelalex242]

Hmm.

But is that bonus really worth an ECL?

Spellcasters, especially, always gained far more with an actual level then they ever did from stat boosts.

The extra bonuses fighters (and rogues) get is simply a class feature, I suppose. Though even the fighter can really only get 20s in str con, and dex before having to put the rest in a mental attribute.

[Easy_Lee]

You should note that this will give Fighters proportionally more power than other classes, since they get more ASI's. Meaning that, under the increased ECL idea, you should eventually be treating the fighter as higher level than the rest of the party.

Sounds like it could be fun, though.

Actually, it will have the opposite effect.

Let's assume for a moment that fighters and rogues are equivalent to other classes before the FR extra ASIs. That yields the following:

Non FR: 5 ASIs
FR: 7 ASIs
(7-5)/5=40% more ASI power for fighters/rogues

With the house rule that effectively doubles ASIs:

Non FR: 10 ASIs
FR: 12 ASIs
(12-10)/10=20% more ASI power for fighters/rogues

So fighters and rogues actually lose some comparative power. The solution would be to buff those classes by granting them an attribute boost and feats in place of one ASI, keeping in spirit with the house rule.

Non FR: 10 ASIs
FR: 14 ASIs
(14-10)/10=40% more ASI power for fighters/rogues, same as before.

[pwykersotz]

Actually, it will have the opposite effect.

Let's assume for a moment that fighters and rogues are equivalent to other classes before the FR extra ASIs. That yields the following:

Non FR: 5 ASIs
FR: 7 ASIs
(7-5)/5=40% more ASI power for fighters/rogues

With the house rule that effectively doubles ASIs:

Non FR: 10 ASIs
FR: 12 ASIs
(12-10)/10=20% more ASI power for fighters/rogues

So fighters and rogues actually lose some comparative power. The solution would be to buff those classes by granting them an attribute boost and feats in place of one ASI, keeping in spirit with the house rule.

Non FR: 10 ASIs
FR: 14 ASIs
(14-10)/10=40% more ASI power for fighters/rogues, same as before.

Ah, I thought that doubling was the premise. I was confused for a moment when you referred to just adding 5 to each side. That said, remember that while the % remains the same, there can be a large difference in actual play. After all, the difference between 10 and 14 damage is often negligible, but the difference between 100 and 140 damage is much more obvious. However, since a lot of feats add utility and not as much stacking damage, it should be fine.

[Easy_Lee]

Ah, I thought that doubling was the premise. I was confused for a moment when you referred to just adding 5 to each side. That said, remember that while the % remains the same, there can be a large difference in actual play. After all, the difference between 10 and 14 damage is often negligible, but the difference between 100 and 140 damage is much more obvious. However, since a lot of feats add utility and not as much stacking damage, it should be fine.

Agreed. I think the attribute capping and bounded accuracy actually work very well for this reason. No matter how many bonus feats or attribute points a character has, the best they can ever hope to do is have straight 20's and all the feats. While that would be a crazy-diverse character, it still wouldn't swing a greatsword or toss a spell any harder than a traditionally-optimized fighter or wizard.

Since I'm rather fond of characters having diverse skill sets by cap, I like the house rule.

[asorel]

Actually, it will have the opposite effect.

Let's assume for a moment that fighters and rogues are equivalent to other classes before the FR extra ASIs. That yields the following:

Non FR: 5 ASIs
FR: 7 ASIs
(7-5)/5=40% more ASI power for fighters/rogues

With the house rule that effectively doubles ASIs:

Non FR: 10 ASIs
FR: 12 ASIs
(12-10)/10=20% more ASI power for fighters/rogues

So fighters and rogues actually lose some comparative power. The solution would be to buff those classes by granting them an attribute boost and feats in place of one ASI, keeping in spirit with the house rule.

Non FR: 10 ASIs
FR: 14 ASIs
(14-10)/10=40% more ASI power for fighters/rogues, same as before.

Sorry, I'm something of a noob when it comes to homebrewing. What do you mean by FR? I'm sure it's not Forgotten Realms, and Google isn't giving me much else, due to that being the official abbreviation for the setting.
Edit: Just realized it means fighter/rogue.

[Angelalex242]

Err...the current idea is that EVERY ASI provides both benefits. You cannot take a feat twice, nor can you take an ability score twice, but you always get a feat and ability score.

So the Fighter and Rogue get doubled just like the other classes.

[Easy_Lee]

Err...the current idea is that EVERY ASI provides both benefits. You cannot take a feat twice, nor can you take an ability score twice, but you always get a feat and ability score.

So the Fighter and Rogue get doubled just like the other classes.

Right, I was figuring that's what you meant. Pardon the confusion, the system I use is slightly different. I give feats at 2,6,10,14,18 and attribute increases at 4,8,12,14,19. That way players get something to play with more frequently, rather than having to make lots of decisions at once.

[Angelalex242]

Anyways, is ECL + 1 for every other doubled ASI too much of a counter balance, too little of a counterbalance, or just right? I have the sneaking suspicion it may prove to be overkill.

[Kane0]

I'd personally allow that instead of 2 ASI or a feat a player can choose one ASI and a feat, with some limitation. Probably only being able to do this up to twice, or the +1 'ECL' after the second or third time they choose this option (this only happens once though, not once per 2 or 3 ASIs)

But hey, I would also allow a higher than average stat array and a feat to start with, so I'm intending on going with a higher power curve.

[MeeposFire]

One other option if you think this helps fighters and rogues too much you can only give a feat+ability score upgrades on levels that all classes get them and then only give them the choice on the bonus ones that those classes get (such as rogue 10).

[Angelalex242]

Nah. I'm not worried about Fighters and Rogues gaining two extra improvements. It's part of the benefit of being those classes. Again, stats cap at 20, so if Fighters and Rogues have an extra 20, that's fine by me.

I'm just trying to visualize if the ECL thing is appropriate at 1/2.

Maybe 1/3? In which case, most classes would only ever be ECL 1, but Fighters and Rogues would hit ECL 2.

But that doesn't seem fair. Hmm.