Help with the half-minotaur goliath

[Phaederkiel]

I have a bit of a stupid little question.

the Half-minotaur template, found in dragon magazine 313 (or perhaps elsewhere) notes that the guy gets +4 strength, +2 con, -2 Int.
Goliath gives also a +4 strength, -2 dex, +2 con.

The problem comes here:
Since the Goliath is a medium creature, considered large only when he benefits from it, the half minotaur template makes him a large creature which is considered huge when it benefits him. BUT. I cannot find anywhere what kind of stat-change this change in size entails.

perhaps it is a +2 strength, -2 dex ?

or is it a +8 str etc (which is positively broken on the already monstrous half-minotaur)?

If one of the brilliant people here knows the answer, perhaps you can even tell us what happens when we enlarge or reduce the minotaur via spells?

thx in advance.

[torrasque666]

I have a bit of a stupid little question.

the Half-minotaur template, found in dragon magazine 313 (or perhaps elsewhere) notes that the guy gets +4 strength, +2 con, -2 Int.
Goliath gives also a +4 strength, -2 dex, +2 con.

The problem comes here:
Since the Goliath is a medium creature, considered large only when he benefits from it, the half minotaur template makes him a large creature which is considered huge when it benefits him. BUT. I cannot find anywhere what kind of stat-change this change in size entails.

perhaps it is a +2 strength, -2 dex ?

or is it a +8 str etc (which is positively broken on the already monstrous half-minotaur)?

If one of the brilliant people here knows the answer, perhaps you can even tell us what happens when we enlarge or reduce the minotaur via spells?

thx in advance.
You got the description of Powerful Build a bit wrong.

he physical stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category
larger. Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifi er
or special size modifi er for an opposed check (such as
during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip
attempts), the goliath is treated as one size larger if doing
so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to
be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s
special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or
swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons
designed for a creature one size larger without penalty.
However, his space and reach remain those of a creature
of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack
with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change
the subject’s size category.

He's still medium. There's no stat change due to powerful build or situations where it would be used. And you got Half-Minotaur wrong as well, its +4 Str,+2 Con,-2 Int, and all the changes that increasing his size would give according to the creature improvement rules. Goliath is Medium, so going up to Large is +8 Str, +4 Con -2 Dex. So a Half-Minotaur Goliath would have +16 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int and be considered Huge when applying his powerful build in the situations outlined in the ability.

When dealing with spells, apply the spells modifier as normal. Note that a Half-Minotaur Goliath(or Goliath in general) is a Monstrous Humanoid, not a Humanoid, so things like Enlarge Person won't apply to him. Expansion will though.

[Barbarian Horde]

Half minotaur from dragon magazine progresses as a monster when it's size increase.


[[Half Minotaur]] Dragon Magazine"Yes Increase as a monster" This is prob the most OP +1 Template to apply
+12 str
+6con
-2Int
"Size and Type: The base creature's type does not change. If the base creature is of Small or Medium size, it gains one size category, becoming Medium or Large respectively. See Creature Size Changer for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there."

Vs

[[Goliath]]
+4 str
+2 con
- 2 dex

Ok Goliath is medium creature. So take it's bonus and add them to half minotaurs.
New scores are
+16str
+8con
-2dex
-int

"Treat yourself as a huge size monster for checks such as grapples and bullrushs
You will still be a large creature. I mean are you trying to stack strength?

Mountain Rage (Ex): A goliath barbarian who takes
the 1st-level racial substitution level can tap into the
mountain’s strength to increase his size and power
during a rage. When he rages, his size category increases
to Large. (Although his size category increases by one
step, the goliath barbarian’s height only increases by a
foot or so and his mass only increases by about 30–40%, so
his equipment still fi ts normally.) This change increases
the barbarian’s space and reach to 10 feet and applies a
–1 penalty on attack rolls and to AC. However, he does
not gain additional benefi ts on weapon size and grapple
checks, since he already has them from his powerful
build ability."
Doing this way I think is a total of 14 strength while raging.
Maybe pick a small creature and rage then apply half minotaur template

[Phaederkiel]

I may have not myself clear enough. I know full well what powerful build means. It essentially means, i am large in many of larges better aspect (including weapon sizes, excluding reach), except that i can still get larger by becoming a minotaur.

And yes, I have seen the calculator too. But I very much doubt that I should be getting a +8 str etc. The calculator is not official material, and i think it might well be wrong. It is meant, I think, for calculating the size increases that are incurred by advancing a monster via hit-die gain. Which is not what happens to our HMGoliath.

[Barbarian Horde]

You advance the character as a monster. Not like enlarge person. This template is super strong. It's always been that way. Powerful build is just treating you a size catagory more then you are for making special checks.

[OldTrees1]

Half Minotaur gets the size increase modifiers. However your DM is likely to say the +4 Str, +2 Con and +1 Size is good enough by itself without the additional +8 to Str.

The enlarge spell line gives +2 Str and -2 Dex(vice versa for reduce) if you can get it on the Monstrous Humanoid that Goliaths are. Enlarge Person would not work for this reason.

[Barbarian Horde]

Right I mean I wouldn't allow half minotaur personally.

[Extra Anchovies]

Right I mean I wouldn't allow half minotaur personally.

I'd allow it without the ability score changes from the size adjustment to Large (that is, they don't get +8 str etc). Makes it a lot weaker, but it's still a strength increase and a nice natural attack.

[Barbarian Horde]

I'd allow it without the ability score changes from the size adjustment to Large (that is, they don't get +8 str etc). Makes it a lot weaker, but it's still a strength increase and a nice natural attack.

Yeah but at that point for a LA+2 with only a total bonus of +8str from half minotaur and goliath, I wouldnt do it. Not for LA+2 Specially when he can just take mountain rage. Keep himself at a +1 LA

Anyways my answer to this topic is that it advances your character as a monster when you take the half minotaur template on top of the stats from the templates+goliath bonus. I highlighted the line where it says that. Again it is one of the strongest template for a +1.

[ZamielVanWeber]

And yes, I have seen the calculator too. But I very much doubt that I should be getting a +8 str etc. The calculator is not official material, and i think it might well be wrong. It is meant, I think, for calculating the size increases that are incurred by advancing a monster via hit-die gain. Which is not what happens to our HMGoliath.
The template specifically says that you get the size increases if you go up a step, so enjoy you sizeable buffs to Str and Con. Also powerful build does not consider you to be large, it makes you larger. A half-minotaur goliath would be treated as huge much of the time.

[Red Fel]

If you don't like the calculator because you think it's unofficial, consider what the SRD1 - an accurate reflection of official material - has to say about improving monsters via size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases). According to that table, a monster going from Medium to Large gets +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 nat armor, and -1 AC/attack.

That's a big deal, no pun intended. There's a reason a size increase is considered to be worth +1 LA, almost on its own.

1 And if you want something actually official, the Revised (3.5) SRD - the official one - has the same information (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35).

[Phaederkiel]

The template specifically says that you get the size increases if you go up a step, so enjoy you sizeable buffs to Str and Con. Also powerful build does not consider you to be large, it makes you larger. A half-minotaur goliath would be treated as huge much of the time.

which is exactly the reason we are doing it. Bullrush and intimidate +8, huge weapons, large reach, having fun.
The GM kinda wants us to break melee classes, and we are giving it our best shot.

I just cannot believe that the size increase really gives these giant bonuses. I mean, yes, they are sometimes stupid with the writing, but something as bad as that should not have slipped their attention.:smallamused:

I would like to have a less obviously broken alternative to that bonus, since i do not want the gm to turn the character down. I thus hoped that the calculator was wrong an the template was not THAT bad.

[Phaederkiel]

If you don't like the calculator because you think it's unofficial, consider what the SRD1 - an accurate reflection of official material - has to say about improving monsters via size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases). According to that table, a monster going from Medium to Large gets +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 nat armor, and -1 AC/attack.

That's a big deal, no pun intended. There's a reason a size increase is considered to be worth +1 LA, almost on its own.

1 And if you want something actually official, the Revised (3.5) SRD - the official one - has the same information (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35).

Technically, it says still

A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased
which technically means that these are the increases that happen, when a creature gets larger because of mor hit die, in contrast to just getting large from a template. Am I wrong with that? I mean, if there is no other way to determine the changes that happen when you grow, this might be the table to turn to. Is the spell description of enlarge person not perhaps an indicator what happens when you grow without being advanced?

[Blackhawk748]

which is exactly the reason we are doing it. Bullrush and intimidate +8, huge weapons, large reach, having fun.
The GM kinda wants us to break melee classes, and we are giving it our best shot.

I just cannot believe that the size increase really gives these giant bonuses. I mean, yes, they are sometimes stupid with the writing, but something as bad as that should not have slipped their attention.:smallamused:

I would like to have a less obviously broken alternative to that bonus, since i do not want the gm to turn the character down. I thus hoped that the calculator was wrong an the template was not THAT bad.

It really is that bad sadly, if you dont want to scare the crap out of your GM try Mineral Warrior. Gets DR/Adamatium, a bunch of nice stat bonuses, a Smite iirc and a few other things. In short a very nice template for beatsticks.


which technically means that these are the increases that happen, when a creature gets larger because of mor hit die, in contrast to just getting large from a template. Am I wrong with that? I mean, if there is no other way to determine the changes that happen when you grow, this might be the table to turn to. Is the spell description of enlarge person not perhaps an indicator what happens when you grow without being advanced?

You are still wrong, it simply refers to things becoming larger naturally, which templates are (usually) so a size increase from templates is just as legite as from HD. Enlarge is a spell and as such has its effects written out.

[Solaris]

Why not make it a half-minotaur halfling instead? It seems a more subtle way to break melee classes.

[Necroticplague]

Technically, it says still

which technically means that these are the increases that happen, when a creature gets larger because of mor hit die, in contrast to just getting large from a template. Am I wrong with that? I mean, if there is no other way to determine the changes that happen when you grow, this might be the table to turn to. Is the spell description of enlarge person not perhaps an indicator what happens when you grow without being advanced?

Read the next line. It just says
A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below. It says that any increased size effects it, as based on the table.

Also, the rules for templates mention
If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table: Changes to Statistics by Size to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus. Which refers to that earlier table.

[Barbarian Horde]

which is exactly the reason we are doing it. Bullrush and intimidate +8, huge weapons, large reach, having fun.
The GM kinda wants us to break melee classes, and we are giving it our best shot.

I just cannot believe that the size increase really gives these giant bonuses. I mean, yes, they are sometimes stupid with the writing, but something as bad as that should not have slipped their attention.:smallamused:

I would like to have a less obviously broken alternative to that bonus, since i do not want the gm to turn the character down. I thus hoped that the calculator was wrong an the template was not THAT bad.

ROFL your bullrush/grapple will not just be a +8. Being counted Huge for your grapple/bullrush will automatically be a +12 against medium creatures.. Add your str modifier assuming you started with 18. Add another+12
So right now your grapple is a +24.
Plus any feats such as improved bullrush or improved grapple.
+28 then add bab?
Surely at level 1 your grapple will be 29+[[1d20]]
So even with a nat 1 your grapple will be a 30.
Turn this half minotaur into a warhulk. With 50+str you can break stuff. Add dungeon crasher alternative replacing the fighters level3 and level 6 feat give competence bonus for breaking stuff with a +10 to str. (walls, doors, bars, not people)

[Phaederkiel]

It really is that bad sadly, if you dont want to scare the crap out of your GM try Mineral Warrior. Gets DR/Adamatium, a bunch of nice stat bonuses, a Smite iirc and a few other things. In short a very nice template for beatsticks.

Bin there, don that, boht the chainmail...:smallsmile:



Read the next line. It just says It says that any increased size effects it, as based on the table.

A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below.

no, I do not think it says that. It says that the increased size affects any special abilities, and attributes too. nothing else.


Also, the rules for templates mention Which refers to that earlier table.

This, on the other hand, is quite convincing. Alas, i cannot find it. Where can I?

[Necroticplague]

no, I do not think it says that. It says that the increased size affects any special abilities, and attributes too. nothing else.



This, on the other hand, is quite convincing. Alas, i cannot find it. Where can I?

Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) Scroll down to 'Size Increases', and 'Templates' a little past that.

[torrasque666]

Yeah, the only reason it mentions the calculator is because its most easily found on realmshelps. The actual template in dragmag 313 says "See table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size in the Monster Manual for changes to the base creature when it gains a size catagory. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there."
So yeah, Barbarian Horde has the stat changes right. Though trust me, this is not as hilarious as a Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre(v 313) Halfling. Hello +22 Strength. All for LA+2

[Phaederkiel]

okay, than crazy boni it is. I took down the base strength to about 14, so he has only a 30 after all templating.

Now, as a question: am I right that the goliath substitution lvl will not enlarge me to true hugeness, because of how it is written?

(and has someone a nice idea for one or two feats that can only be gotten with such a character? Namely, feats that need
track or
scent or
large size or
a gore attack?

I already have knockback on my list. I play at lvl 7, meaning Charlvl 5.

[Necroticplague]

okay, than crazy boni it is. I took down the base strength to about 14, so he has only a 30 after all templating.

Now, as a question: am I right that the goliath substitution lvl will not enlarge me to true hugeness, because of how it is written?

(and has someone a nice idea for one or two feats that can only be gotten with such a character? Namely, feats that need
track or
scent or
large size or
a gore attack?

I already have knockback on my list. I play at lvl 7, meaning Charlvl 5.

Indeed. The substitution level makes you large, regardless of what size you are, so it wouldn't do anything for you.

There's 2 feats in savage species that improve your scent ability, one doubling its range to 60, then another that extends your auto-pinpoint range to 20 feet.

[atemu1234]

Yeah, the only reason it mentions the calculator is because its most easily found on realmshelps. The actual template in dragmag 313 says "See table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size in the Monster Manual for changes to the base creature when it gains a size catagory. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there."
So yeah, Barbarian Horde has the stat changes right. Though trust me, this is not as hilarious as a Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre(v 313) Halfling. Hello +22 Strength. All for LA+2

Yeah, this is hilarious. But why stop there? Throw on unseelie fey, for no adequate reason!

[Socksy]

I read this as "half-minotaur goldfish". I... may have to stat that up.

[Inevitability]

Yeah, this is hilarious. But why stop there? Throw on unseelie fey, for no adequate reason!

And Amphibious! Remember, heavy armor comes with double-digit penalties to swim, and we don't want our favorite beatstick to drown!

[atemu1234]

And Amphibious! Remember, heavy armor comes with double-digit penalties to swim, and we don't want our favorite beatstick to drown!

What's the LA on Amphibious?

[Necroticplague]

What's the LA on Amphibious?

LA+0, -2 dexterity, gain amphibious quality and swim speed.

[Phaederkiel]

are you aware that I had to put a lot of points in dex already as not to start with dex 2? Any more, and i have an unplayable character.

(8 base -2 for goliath, -2 from half Minotaur, -2 from being large...)

This is a tiny bit too dangerous, since some spells can easily end the life of such a pc.


I like the scent feats. a good way to do anything about our abysmal perception skills.
Is track as useless as it seems?