Paladin Question

[m149307]

Ok, so I am looking for the method of turning the Paladins Divine Grace class feature into Wisdom based AC bonus. I think it took advantage of the Champions of Valour sub level... But I don't know what else. Any suggestions?

[Extra Anchovies]

The Serenity feat makes all your paladin abilities that keyed of Charisma key off Wisdom. Dragon 306, and Dragon Compendium.

[m149307]

So Serenity + Sub Level gives me the Wisdom AC bonus? And is it limited to number of times per day or something?

[Extra Anchovies]

So Serenity + Sub Level gives me the Wisdom AC bonus? And is it limited to number of times per day or something?

Oh, sorry, missed the Wis to AC thing. I saw "Divine Grace" and "Wisdom based" and jumped to Serenity. Ask your DM.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I just looked through CoV's ACF's and I didn't see anything like that.

Have you considered just asking your DM for a straight trade between divine grace and the monk's AC features? The two are fairly comparable.

[m149307]

I just looked through CoV's ACF's and I didn't see anything like that.

Have you considered just asking your DM for a straight trade between divine grace and the monk's AC features? The two are fairly comparable.
It's on page 48.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's on page 48.

Ah. Found it.

Yeeeeaaaahhhh. There's nothing to do there. That flat replaces divine grace, so serenity won't help here since it specifies the features to which it applies. Brilliant strategy isn't one of them.

Seriously though. You could always start with a 1 level monk dip or just ask for a straight swap from your DM.

[m149307]

I am already doing a level one monk dip, I was looking for ways to add my wisdom to AC again. And I will ask my DM, thanks

[Kelb_Panthera]

I am already doing a level one monk dip, I was looking for ways to add my wisdom to AC again. And I will ask my DM, thanks

.....


Don't count on a positive response. It's even questionable whether it would do you any good at that point anyway, same source rule.

Why not just take brilliant strategy as it is and just stack dex, wis, and cha for your total AC? Cha determines turn undead attempst anyway so it's not like you were dumping it. Divine and domain feats, yeah?

[m149307]

Because I took Intuitive Strike so that I could skyrocket my Wisdom. I don't want to be reliant upon too many stats. Also, my build is Monk1/Paladin 2(for the AC)/Fighter 2/Shiba Protector (for 2xwis to attack/damage).

[Snowbluff]

Cast Luminous Armor with your paladin spell slots. +5 AC that stacks with the monk bonus, then a -4 on enemy melee attacks.

[m149307]

They get spells at 4th level I think, which is more than I want.

[Snowbluff]

There are 2 fighter levels in your build.

[m149307]

There are 2 fighter levels in your build.
Correct. They are there fir BAB, feats, and that Fort bonus

[Synar]

Correct. They are there fir BAB, feats, and that Fort bonus

BAB pretty much covered by paladin levels; 2 more levels in paladin give you +1 to each save for a total of +3, same as fighter (and your fort should not be too shady unless you dumped constit since it is your good save). However, luminous armor is not a first level spell... So it really depends what those feats are.

Also, unrelated, but considering you seem to be tight on feats, have you considered using flaws?



EDIT: Also, be sure to remember that bonus of the same type do not stack. But anyway, I'm curious where is your build going after that point?

[Snowbluff]

Additionally, a second level of monk will give you another feat especially handy if you're after one of the alternate monk styles in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm). Combat Expertise is one of the optional choices from the Passive Way. It will also give you Evasion or the Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil, not an evil option) as an option. It will give better saves than a second level of Fighter, and a BAB to boot.

Check out the Otyugh Hole magical location from Complete Scoundrel. It's Iron will for 3kgp.

[Kristinn]

Because I took Intuitive Strike so that I could skyrocket my Wisdom. I don't want to be reliant upon too many stats. Also, my build is Monk1/Paladin 2(for the AC)/Fighter 2/Shiba Protector (for 2xwis to attack/damage).

You need BAB +5 to take the first Shiba Protector. I built a similar character, I like the concept. I also started the build with Cloistered Cleric 1 for Knowledge, Travel and Animal Devotion. Knowledge Devotion for +1 Attack and Damage, Travel Devotion for Swift action movement, which is especially important for Monks, as if you can't Full Attack you do little damage. Animal Devotion can give you flight, and as a melee mundane character you NEED flight. Normally you get it from a magic item, but I decided to take Vow of Poverty (again, it fit thematically).

I would advice against the Fighter levels. I originally included them myself, but have since then concluded they are bad. As someone else pointed out, you already have a good Fortituted save, and you get the BAB anyway from Monk 2-4 and every Paladin level. Regarding Fighter feats, they are all useless for you. Power attack doesn't synergize with Flurry of Blows, TWF is strictly inferior to Snap Kick & co. (none of which are Fighter feats), and none of the prerequisite feats for Shiba Protector are Fighter feats (except Combat Expertise, which you get from Passive Way Monk 2).

Dump those Fighter levels and get two Monk levels instead. This gives you the same BAB, Evasion, Combat Expertise and Alertness by trading away Still Mind (I don't remember where I saw this ACF to be honest, but I remember having seen it.) You still need one more BAB to qualify for Shiba Protector. Either Paladin 3, or, as I did, Wild Shape Ranger 1. This gives you one Favoured enemy, which is really powerful in combination with the exalted feat Nemesis. You can detect the presence and position of any favored enemy within 60 ft. Just choose Human, and you are able to detect all humans within 60 feet at all times. This also gives you 10 more speed, which is always handy, especially with Travel Devotion.

I preferred to keep Shiba Protector at lvl. 1, and advance Paladin to advance Spells, Smite Evil, and by taking the Ascetic Knight feat (Complete Adveturer), also advancing Unarmed Strike die size.

Take the Serenity feat as noted before, and just straight dump Charisma. Get as high Wisdom as possible, as you add it to your saves, AC, Damage and Attack twice (with Intuitive attack).

Other nice feats are Battle Blessing to cast spells as swift actions, and Improved Natural Attack to increase your Unarmed Attack die size even more, and Snap Kick as mentioned before.

[m149307]

Ok, I took Vow of Poverty, and will go into Fist of the Forest next to add Con to AC as well other goodies, that's why I need the feats (stupid prerequisites). Right now I have 26 Wisdom, Dex 20, and 20 Con. If I can get Wisx2 to AC, I will have 47 AC at level 6. Spells I don't care for because this is an gladiators campaign, so it's more about survival than versatility.

Edit: @Synar I plan on taking Fist 3,then the rest Ardent or Psychic Warrior.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok, I took Vow of Poverty, and will go into Fist of the Forest next to add Con to AC as well other goodies, that's why I need the feats (stupid prerequisites). Right now I have 26 Wisdom, Dex 20, and 20 Con. If I can get Wisx2 to AC, I will have 47 AC at level 6. Spells I don't care for because this is an gladiators campaign, so it's more about survival than versatility.

Hold on now. Gotta ask after seeing that: is your DM in the habit of running low-wealth or "low-magic" games? If not then you may -seriously- want to reconsider that. Under the standard rules as written, VoP is a fairly poor mechanical option even if the DM is fairly loose on exalted status and alignment in general. Most of what it grants is easily replicable with your WBL and someone skilled in optimizing wealth can seriously exceed its bonuses.

[Kristinn]

Hold on now. Gotta ask after seeing that: is your DM in the habit of running low-wealth or "low-magic" games? If not then you may -seriously- want to reconsider that. Under the standard rules as written, VoP is a fairly poor mechanical option even if the DM is fairly loose on exalted status and alignment in general. Most of what it grants is easily replicable with your WBL and someone skilled in optimizing wealth can seriously exceed its bonuses.

Well, good thing DnD isn't about having the bestest character then. Interesting character concepts are much more rewarding and fun. Besides, who knows what the optimization level is at his table. Very likely optimizing too much will just make everyone have a worse time. Furthermore, he said they are playing a gladitorial campaign, he most likely won't have access to personalized WBL equipment.

[m149307]

I took Vow because my DM ruled that the bonus feats can be anything, not just Exalted. Also the AC bonus from that and Vow of Peace is really good.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, good thing DnD isn't about having the bestest character then. Interesting character concepts are much more rewarding and fun. Besides, who knows what the optimization level is at his table. Very likely optimizing too much will just make everyone have a worse time. Furthermore, he said they are playing a gladitorial campaign, he most likely won't have access to personalized WBL equipment.

Given that he's trying to stack everything he can on wisdom and in particular is trying to get it to several things more than once, I feel safe in assuming that he's got an eye toward optimization.

The fact that he's dipped paladin just for the extra AC, apparently, also speaks to the fact that he's putting optimization over characterization to some extent. The RP requirements of running a paladin, much less an exalted one, are generally considered to be "not worth it" when considering their mechanical abilities. Either he's -really- into the role, or he's not into it at all and is looking strictly for mechanical advice with the assumption that his DM won't pull a "no win, you fall now LOL" move at some point.

In the former case, he's free to ignore my point about VoP. In the latter, he'd do quite well to reconsider.

[Val666]

Become Saint and never look back

[Snowbluff]

I just realized that this is a monk thread thinly veiled as a paladin thread. :v

[m149307]

Nah, I was asking about the paladin part

[Feralventas]

You can pretty easily skip over the Wis to AC that Serenity feat offers by dipping Battle Dancer from Dragon Magazine Compendium instead of or in addition to Monk. Charisma to AC, unarmed strike as a Monk, and full BAB. Then you can later nab a dip in Sacred Fist and take Kung Fu Genius so that the Wis to AC from that is instead Int, or Fist of the Forrest for Constitution to AC.

[Snowbluff]

If he does that he can't use shiba protector.

[graeylin]

This is a gladiator campaign, and a lot of "normal" assumptions can be tossed out the window. Essentially, you get to pre-buff all you want, and then start the battle (so, big advantage magic users). Fight for a few rounds (if you are lucky), and then 'die'. Get reformed, and fight another battle, all spells restored, etc..

There's a couple HEAVY hitters with TO PC's in place. We've got flyers, psions, grapplers, and a Tainted Scholar running roughshod over the normal builds. I believe the OP is trying to get a high AC, making it near impossible to hit him. Can't hit, can't damage (is the hope). So now, we've got a couple players pumping everything into 6th and 7th level PC's with AC in the 40's, 50's.

That's why he is seeking to put everything he can into getting this advantage.

[Snowbluff]

Oh if that's the case, he has no chance without Divine Grace. What the hell is the use of high AC?

[m149307]

The use is to survive until I win. I already have a good attack bonus and damage, I just need to make sure I don't die first.

[Coidzor]

The use is to survive until I win. I already have a good attack bonus and damage, I just need to make sure I don't die first.

Against TO characters? Even a really high AC is not going to be proof against Cindy. Or the Mailman from what I recall. Or the Wish and the Word. :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is a gladiator campaign, and a lot of "normal" assumptions can be tossed out the window. Essentially, you get to pre-buff all you want, and then start the battle (so, big advantage magic users). Fight for a few rounds (if you are lucky), and then 'die'. Get reformed, and fight another battle, all spells restored, etc..

There's a couple HEAVY hitters with TO PC's in place. We've got flyers, psions, grapplers, and a Tainted Scholar running roughshod over the normal builds. I believe the OP is trying to get a high AC, making it near impossible to hit him. Can't hit, can't damage (is the hope). So now, we've got a couple players pumping everything into 6th and 7th level PC's with AC in the 40's, 50's.

That's why he is seeking to put everything he can into getting this advantage.

This being the case there's no winning as a non-caster or even a partial-caster. The tainted scholar in particular, unless he's a complete newb at spell selection, is basically unbeatable when played to full potential.

[m149307]

Tainted Scholar is focusing on Haboob and Silent Image stuff. Also, we can dodge opponents we don't want to face (Scholar has been dodged alot)

[Solaris]

Kill the enemy player in his sleep as an example to the rest.

[m149307]

Anyone who dies is revived after the match... So that suggestion does nothing.

[Solaris]

They're revived if they're killed outside of a match, too?

[graeylin]

There is no "outside of a match". Or if there is, it's still all part of the match, and the rules apply that you get revived, renewed, refreshed... and since you don't need to ever sleep, it's hard to kill someone while doing so.

[Snowbluff]

Before I start being facetious, what level are we at?

[Sith_Happens]

I took Vow because my DM ruled that the bonus feats can be anything, not just Exalted.

In that case I recommend Shape Soulmeld. A bunch of times. And probably mix in some Open [Whatever] Chakra.


Also the AC bonus from that and Vow of Peace is really good.

...Hold it right there. You're playing Mortal Kombat: D&D Edition and you want to take a feat that keeps you from dealing lethal damage. Do you not see the problem there?:smallconfused:

[graeylin]

Before I start being facetious, what level are we at?

players start at 6th.