Warlocks: the 2 through 11 stretch

[Dalebert]

When I picked a warlock for my first 5e character, I actually said I look forward to the challenge of resource management that a warlock represents, but I made my decision weeks after a brief glance at the book so my memory of the details was sketchy. When I got a look at the class again and was actually making my character, I thought I'd better multiclass. The main thing is just 2 spell slots from lvl 2 all the way until lvl 11, and really it's about the latter half of that because in the early part, 2 per rest is actually not much less than other casters and mobs probably aren't that tough yet.

Generally speaking it's not bad. It's per rest so your spells per day aren't bad. Thing is, you're forced to spread them out. That's the resource management. A typical caster could blow through a lot of their daily spells to get them through a particularly long and/or tough battle. That's my main issue, especially the ones the party can't plan for, and it makes me feel the need to multiclass rather than play a straight lock.

Unfortunately, making this thread is going to make it seem like a bigger issue to me than it really is but and it just came up in a sorcerer thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387885-Sorcerer-Balance-(Buffs)&p=18526371) (click here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18526371&postcount=27) to read it in full and in context before I chop it up to respond) and discussion is continuing so I made this thread to try to keep that one on topic.


You missed the part where most spell casters are still using cantrips most of the time for combat and warlocks provide the best attack cantrip option with eldritch blast and agonizing blast.

Yes, most of the time things are fine, but again, the particularly long and/or tough battles is when most casters start dipping into limited slots, probably saving some for just such a situation. When those happen to a lock before 11, there's a pretty good chance he has one or zero left.


The warlock will continue to have high level spell slots available when other casters will not because they are the highest levels available and they will come back as the best recovery option available.

Not really. There's a very good chance they will have one or zero when a nasty drawn-out fight comes. There are really no "stops" to pull out in a pinch. So it's that situation I would like to stay focused on--not on general spells per day or general utility. I will try to keep bringing the emphasis back to that.


Any other time and the warlock will still have cantrips and invocations that can also be cast at-will.

Other classes have cantrips too. EB typically does a little extra dmg with Agonizing Blast but dragonblooded Sorcerers get comparable cantrip dmg at 6, starting about the time I expressed concern about, i.e. the latter half of that long stretch to lvl 11. I just can't help being a little in constant dread of the unexpected big nasty fight and being unprepared, e.g. mobs surprise you and you have no Misty Step, no Mirror Image, no Invisibility, no whatever to maybe save your but in a pinch. You can't afford to save a slot for something like that, and even if you somehow do, again, in a long and/or particularly tough battle in those higher levels, good chance it's just not enough.

So invocations should, in theory, help to make up for the fewer slots.


Mage armor,

Stupid to take for one more AC when you can already wear light armor, and if you do, 1 more AC ain't gonna be your butt-saver.


levitate,

Not until 9th and of extremely contextual value even then.


speak with animals, detect magic,

Tough drawn-out battle. Tell me how this is going to save my butt.


false life,

Admittedly a few more HP can be a little helpful.


disguise self, silent image, jump, and speak with dead

Tough drawn-out battle.


A warlock who takes chain has a pretty good tool for lower levels to cover things.

Tough drawn-out battle.


A warlock who takes blade is going to melee anyway and not see negative impact; he might fiendish vigor at will.

Conceded. I didn't take blade.


A warlock who takes tome will add 3 extra cantrips from any class

Cantrips have been addressed. They're very handy and I like having a lot. Again, tough drawn-out battle.


and add rituals from any class and still adds at-will spells.

I went tome and this is great utility. Again, tough drawn-out battle. Leomund's Tiny Hut might be very helpful, but I don't have 11 minutes to cast it when a trap just summoned four undead within reach of me, an actual example. Fortunately at only 3rd level. I survived and we were luckily able to rest right after.


Not all the spell invocations are good but silent image, alter self, levitate, and arcane eye eventually at-will do wonders for stretching out spell slots.

Tough drawn-out battles. Alter Self and Arcane Eye are at lvl 15, long past the period in question.


Only looking at spell slots is missing more than half the class.

I agree, and in the general case, I think they're competitive. I just kind of honestly fear for my survival and or usefulness to the party when the S.H.T.F. as always happens once or twice in an adventure, often when least expected. Know what I mean? I will also concede that warlocks get a once per rest defensive ability at 6th that can help a little. It's not a huge beef, just enough of one that I feel uncomfortable going straight lock in those early levels. Also, I really feel they should have bumped up the progression of slots a few levels. Around 8th or 9th would feel a little more reasonable for getting that 3rd slot.

[Shadow]

Cantrips have been addressed. They're very handy and I like having a lot. Again, tough drawn-out battle.

Cantrips are exactly what other casters will be falling back on in tough, drawn-out battles. In long drawn out battles cantrips are King. And warlocks are the King of Cantrips.
I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Naanomi]

I tend to play my warlock like a ranger: eldritch blast is my bow, it is my go-to solution to every problem... So when something scary does appear those spell slots (hex + something usually) are ready.

With a d8 hit die, light armor, and a number of temporary HP options; I tend to able to slog out those longer fights slightly better than wizards/sorcerers as well

[SharkForce]

i don't get why everyone always devalues at-will levitate so much (though it would definitely be more impressive if it could be used on others as well).

you do realize that 2/3 warlock paths have extremely easy access to a critter that can tow you around whilst levitating, right? arguably, even a mage hand should be able to allow you to maneuver while levitating. yeah, it's not as amazing as a really high fly speed, but it's not exactly awful either (and if anyone else in the party gets flight, you're even more good to go).

but anyways, i digress.

i pretty much have to agree with the above. as a warlock, you're pretty much all about your cantrips and at-will abilities. those spell slots are something you generally should be saving for those emergencies you're talking about. one for hex is a good idea (especially since you can probably keep concentrating even after taking a short rest), and apart from that you pretty much hold on to your spell slots for emergencies.

one other possibility would be to look for magic items that can help. wands, scrolls, etc. i don't have a DMG, but i've heard that pact rods (or something to that effect) give an additional spell slot to warlocks as well. obviously, you're not going to be able to get your hands on everything you might want at level 3, but you've got a bit of time.

on the other hand, if you want to add a bit of punch once per battle, since your spellcasting ability doesn't stack anyways, why not consider splashing a non-caster level or two?

two levels of fighter, for example, would give you medium armour (so you don't need to invest much into dex), shields, a combat style (defense recommended in your case), a small self-heal, and an action surge when needed. and it recharges with a short rest, as well. there's the emergency burst you were looking for, and it will even scale well later on when you've got your 5th level spell slots and mystic arcanum available.

so it will add a bit of toughness, and gives you some burst. both sound like things that might come in handy in the situations you seem most worried about.

[silveralen]

Low level warlock is basically set up as such:

In normal fights you use cantrips.

Out of combat you use skills, cantrips, invocations, and hopefully rituals if you went that route. You avoid using your spell slots if at all possible.

In hard fights you blow your spell slots. You can also do this if it is clear your party will need to rest after the battle regardless.

When you feel the need to use a spell, try and short rest after.

[Dalebert]

on the other hand, if you want to add a bit of punch once per battle, since your spellcasting ability doesn't stack anyways, why not consider splashing a non-caster level or two?

They don't stack in the usual way but they actually are pretty synergistic with warlock. You can still use your high level warlock slots with the spells you know from other classes. With a sorcerer, you can cast 1st level spells in higher slots like chromatic orb or magic missile, and get more wild surges if desired. With just one level of bard, you can cast spells like Cure Wounds or Bane fairly frequently and at high level slots.

And even those two 1st level slots on reserve can come in handy in a pinch. You can renew Hex if you had to drop it to cast a concentration spell. A 1st level Cure Wounds, delivered by familiar if needed, could stabalize and revive a fallen ally. It's enough to cast Arms of Hadar and help escape melee without AoOs, etc. It (sort of) doubles the slots you have available during a particularly tough or drawn-out encounter. (tough and drawn-out often come together, after all)

Agreed though that a lock combo can be great for a gish type. I made a valor bard who's dipping 3 or 4 levels lock whom I'm grooming to be kind of decent at combat while still being a decent caster. In his case, I'll be able to toss those 2 slots per short rest around more casually.

I think you guys are right that I'm probably overly nervous. In my defense, I'm mostly anticipating problems without actual experience to base it on as I barely have my feet wet in 5e (only 3rd lvl) and I did emphasize this is a minor quibble and not a big beef.

[metaridley18]

i pretty much have to agree with the above. as a warlock, you're pretty much all about your cantrips and at-will abilities. those spell slots are something you generally should be saving for those emergencies you're talking about. one for hex is a good idea (especially since you can probably keep concentrating even after taking a short rest), and apart from that you pretty much hold on to your spell slots for emergencies.

one other possibility would be to look for magic items that can help. wands, scrolls, etc. i don't have a DMG, but i've heard that pact rods (or something to that effect) give an additional spell slot to warlocks as well. obviously, you're not going to be able to get your hands on everything you might want at level 3, but you've got a bit of time.

on the other hand, if you want to add a bit of punch once per battle, since your spellcasting ability doesn't stack anyways, why not consider splashing a non-caster level or two?

two levels of fighter, for example, would give you medium armour (so you don't need to invest much into dex), shields, a combat style (defense recommended in your case), a small self-heal, and an action surge when needed. and it recharges with a short rest, as well. there's the emergency burst you were looking for, and it will even scale well later on when you've got your 5th level spell slots and mystic arcanum available.

so it will add a bit of toughness, and gives you some burst. both sound like things that might come in handy in the situations you seem most worried about.

I personally went with fighter 1, Warlock X (level 1 now but will take it as long as the campaign goes on) for the reasons you described. I started with it for heavy armor so that I really wouldn't care about Dex. Also Polearm Master and using a quarterstaff, so that affects my opinion. I haven't had an issue with slots so far. I have good survivability and damage without them and really just use them as a tipping point for the extra oomph, as people say. Additionally, at slightly higher levels I can cast Hex in the morning on a squirrel or something, rest for an hour, and have Hex available without a cast for 24 hours (while I maintain concentration) which further helps my oomph. I'm sure my DM will shut that down if I do it all the time, but for a particularly intense dungeon it may be an option.

I see the argument about invocations that take spell slots. However, I'm not sure that making those abilities one a day without using a slot would be a good idea. There are 7 of those invocations granting the spells Compulsion, Confusion, Conjure Elemental, Slow, Polymorph, Bestow Curse, and Bane. Of those, I might consider Slow, Bestow Curse and Polymorph. If these spells didn't require a slot, it would become a no-brainer to take most or all of them, which strikes me as too good.

As it stands, I have to carefully evaluate if the spell is not only better than another invocation, but better than a spell I might cast in a similar situation. Bestow Curse is especially potent, as once you get 5th level spells it is not longer Concentration and can stack with Hex. You can use Hex plus it to gain 1d6+1d8 to every attack, a not insubstantial amount of damage, but only once per day. So I might consider this.

Polymorph (as per usual) is too good NOT to have as an option, as it's a disable, infiltration, escape, fighting form, and general use utility spell all in one, and as we know, versatility is king in D&D. If this didn't require a slot to use I think it would delve into the realm of a bit too powerful.

I went Path of the Blade, so I'll probably look at Slow as well. However, since I'm using 2 invocations for my blade route, and 1 for my eldritch blast, that probably only leaves 1 I would comfortably spend on these extra spell abilities. So I'd likely take Slow or Bestow Curse at 5th and swap it with Polymorph at 7th.

[Eslin]

Additionally, at slightly higher levels I can cast Hex in the morning on a squirrel or something, rest for an hour, and have Hex available without a cast for 24 hours (while I maintain concentration) which further helps my oomph. I'm sure my DM will shut that down if I do it all the time, but for a particularly intense dungeon it may be an option.

Your DM would change the way the world works based entirely on whether one person does a certain minor act too often?

[metaridley18]

Your DM would change the way the world works based entirely on whether one person does a certain minor act too often?

Not really the way the world works, but there is the caveat of finding and sacrificing rats (or similar small animals) at the beginning of every day, and there's a whole level of practicality and likelihood of that. Maybe he would assign a percent chance to my ability to find one, or maybe he would say that I could do it if I spend X time looking and make X skill roll. I honestly don't know.

I also DM a warlock and I would say I don't see a huge issue with just casting it in the first combat of the day and having it up for 8 or 24 hours from there. That being said, I don't think the warlock I DM is clever enough to consider the rat-sacrificing option, and if he did, I would be so thrilled he was thinking ever-so-slightly outside the box I would reward it.

[Eslin]

Not really the way the world works, but there is the caveat of finding and sacrificing rats (or similar small animals) at the beginning of every day, and there's a whole level of practicality and likelihood of that. Maybe he would assign a percent chance to my ability to find one, or maybe he would say that I could do it if I spend X time looking and make X skill roll. I honestly don't know.

I also DM a warlock and I would say I don't see a huge issue with just casting it in the first combat of the day and having it up for 8 or 24 hours from there. That being said, I don't think the warlock I DM is clever enough to consider the rat-sacrificing option, and if he did, I would be so thrilled he was thinking ever-so-slightly outside the box I would reward it.

Just find a bag of tricks, they're only uncommon and they're a great combat option anyways, after a few days you'll accumulate several CR 1 beasts as pets. Though rat wise, I can't imagine it'd be difficult - it just says creature, an insect should be easy to find.

[Xetheral]

Your DM would change the way the world works based entirely on whether one person does a certain minor act too often?

It might provoke a houserule, but it also could just provoke the DM to ask the player to refrain from using that tactic. (That's what I'd do as a DM--I'd only make it a houserule if different players tried in more than one campaign.) Either way, it's been shut down.

[ghost_warlock]

i don't get why everyone always devalues at-will levitate so much (though it would definitely be more impressive if it could be used on others as well).

you do realize that 2/3 warlock paths have extremely easy access to a critter that can tow you around whilst levitating, right? arguably, even a mage hand should be able to allow you to maneuver while levitating. yeah, it's not as amazing as a really high fly speed, but it's not exactly awful either (and if anyone else in the party gets flight, you're even more good to go).

Levitate at-will is less than impressive because it eats your concentration slot to maintain. Surely a warlock can think of more useful things to do with their concentration than floating in the air and still getting peppered by arrows.

If floating in the air is all you want to do, have your druid buddy cast Conjure Animals. With one spell (and his concentration slot) he can get eight giant bats to carry the whole party around without any restrictions on which direction they can go. He can do this four levels before you can levitate. By the time you can levitate, he can have his bats carrying everyone around for seven hours per day.

[Dalebert]

I'm not all that big a fan of the all-day Hex. It is nice and I can see doing it at times, but being concentration, it impedes a lot of other things handy to do between combats like Silent Image at will or even Guidance. As I said earlier, if you dip another caster class, you have two 1st level slots you could use to renew Hex if you needed. I think your idea of casting it on a harmless creature and "sacrificing" it is great. I might even do it occasionally because there's no harm in it but I'm sure there are plenty of times I'd end up dropping it to cast another concentrate spell.

[Dalebert]

With one spell (and his concentration slot) he can get eight giant bats to carry the whole party around without any restrictions on which direction they can go. He can do this four levels before you can levitate. By the time you can levitate, he can have his bats carrying everyone around for seven hours per day.

And they apparently thought making Phantom Steed and Unseen Servant last 8 hours was OP. *sigh*

[Felvion]

Now that the dmg is out perhaps try to get items that can help you. Pact rods (or whatever they're called) are really usefull.
I'd convince my dm to give me one as extra help form the patron and since you serve him well it could potentially scale over some levels to a +2 bonus.
Also, I don't know your cantrips and invocation but those kind of define you and help you in tough situations. For example shilelagh is solid choice for when melee situations occur. If you picked the at will disguise self probably you are the kind of guy that shouldn't fall in a trap. If you eventually do you're gonna have a hard time. It's the same hard time the barbarian faces when there are three persons in the party arguing on arcane resolutions and he just have to look at his axe waiting for it to talk back. You can be a party face, a man that no one knows his true face, a guy that has a familiar to serve him as a scouting tool, a guy who can force ppl away from him with a clip of his fingers. All these at the very early levels. But there are times you need specialists ambush dealing is not your own unless you planned to be.
What i mean is that you cant be good at anything and what i feel warlock provides is utility.

Finally, i think you are missing something. If you feel your spell slots are not enough why not craft a wand of your low level spells? Do it and then retrain the spell. You can craft a wand of invisibility and then retrain the spell for something else. Now your wand becomes a great utility tool and a nice panic button.

[Dalebert]

If these spells didn't require a slot, it would become a no-brainer to take most or all of them, which strikes me as too good.

Really? I'm not sure I would take any of them over other invocations that provide continual benefit. I have to take another look at the choices. Seems like I had about five already picked out that didn't include any of those. Maybe at higher levels but I'm not even sure then.

EDIT: Okay, I've looked them over. I'd have to have these five for sure. Then I would give consideration to Minions of Chaos and/or Sculptor of Flesh, even if my DM house-ruled that they don't use a spell slot. I'm not even sure I'll make it past 5 invocations before switching classes but probably. Definitely I won't make it past 7 though. I have zero interest in lock levels 18-20. At 17 I'd have 4 spell slots and my 9th lvl Mystic Arcanum. Done!

Mask of Many Faces (disguise self at will)
Book of Ancient Secrets (ALL the rituals!)
Agonizing Blast (+cha to EB dmg)
Misty Visions (Silent Image at will)
Devil's Sight

[ghost_warlock]

And they apparently thought making Phantom Steed and Unseen Servant last 8 hours was OP. *sigh*

Note that those seven hours involves burning through his third, fourth, and fifth level spell slots. But he's effectively provided the whole party with flight almost all day with only single action breaks instead of the time to cast the phantom steed ritual.

Of course, he could be using something other than bats - eagles, owls, vultures... I just chose bats because they have a decent Str score, echolocation, and you get a lot of them (my group has six PCs). With a five-person party you'd probably be better off with eagles. The druid, himself, can just wildshape so he doesn't need to be carried.

[metaridley18]

Really? I'm not sure I would take any of them over other invocations that provide continual benefit. I have to take another look at the choices. Seems like I had about five already picked out that didn't include any of those. Maybe at higher levels but I'm not even sure then.

Man, I started looking through these and it turned into a full fledged optimization analysis. I did ignore the path-specific invocations because those are all basically required if you're in that path. Additionally, I ignored the blasting ones as those are again basically required if you want blast to be good. Spear or Repelling Blast are options, but not required on the blasting route. Spoilered because it's kind of a digression from the topic of the thread.

Light Blue: This is one of the best options available. You should seriously consider working it into any character you plan on building.
Blue: A very solid option or ability, better than average and likely to see use regularly.
Black: No better or no worse than most other options out there. not likely to vastly improve your character, but still useful.
Orange: Sub-optimal choice or feature. May be worth taking if it combos well with something else, but not generally a great option otherwise.
Red: Stay away. Unless you really like the RP implications of something marked red, don't even bother.

Most of the at-will options are underwhelming or situational to me.

Armor of Shadows (mage armor) is irrelevant if you have Med or Heavy armor. Even without it, it's only 1 better than Studded Leather, so it's not worth the slot
Ascendant Step is at-will Levitate. But it's concentration, so it will likely be relegated to utility, which is pretty limited.
Beast Speech is at-will Speak w/ Animals. Eh, useful, but I'd rather have others.
Beguiling Influence is 2 extra skills: Deception/Persuasion. You have to plan to not have these already.
Devil's Sight (DV) is great! I will always take this eventually.
Eldritch Sight: Detect Magic is usually useful, but it's concentration and blocked by a lot of common barriers. I'd rather have all-day Hex.
Eyes of the Rune Keeper: read all writing. It can come in handy, but you could also learn Tongues or Comprehend Languages (or just find a scroll) and save a valuable invocation slot.
Fiendish Vigor is great at levels 2-4 then I'd rather have something else.
Gaze of Two Minds is incredibly situational. Depends on your build.
Mask of Many Faces is pretty great. Unlimited disguise self
Master of Myriad Forms is very late game and pretty good. Unlimited alter self.
Misty Visions is silent image at will. Again, concentration, but this is better utility than most of the others except disguise self so far.
One with Shadows is invisibility in darkness until you move or use an action/reaction. For my money, I'd rather just cast invisibility.
Otherworldly Leap (jump) is really situational and very underwhelming.
Visions of Distant Realms is arcane eye (and a nice scouting feature!), but again very late game.
Whispers of the Grave- speak with dead, can be good but pretty situtational since the corpse is under no obligation to answer.
Witch Sight- see the true form of shapechangers, or creatures concealed by illusion or transmutations. It's nice, but 15th level is a rough requirement.

So with your 8 invocation slots over the course of the game, you'll use 1 for Agonizing Blast, 1-2 for your path feature (and if you go path of the blade, you might skip blasting type invocations), and 1 more for your preferred blasting modification. So you have roughly 4 or 5 more to realistically choose from or 6 if you went path of the blade.



The problem is that even the great unlimited boosts give you relatively situational abilities. Based on all this and back to my original point, if the ones that give powerful spells didn't require a slot, yeah, I would take at least 2 or 3 of those. The only unlimited boosts that are better than 1/day Polymorph or Conjure Elemental for 'free' are things like Disguise Self or Magic Darkvision and I could take both. Since those Invocations do require a slot, I'll limit it to one, if even that.

[Dalebert]

I just edited my last post with a bit more detail. You have to realize I'm not thinking purely in terms of optimization. D&D is not just a strategy battle game for me. It's also about what is going to be fun to do in and out of combat. Silent Image at will combined with Disguise Self at will and Minor Illusion just let's me have all kinds of fun and tests the limits of my imagination. :smallbiggrin: It just fits my character concept better.

I thought about Fiendish Vigor but that's less impressive at later levels. It would be great now, but there's nothing I can afford to give up for it right now. Some others feel like gravy. Arcane Eye would be nice to have, but I have a sneaky familiar. So it's very possible I'll eventually get Polymorph and Conjure Elemental.

[metaridley18]

I just edited my last post with a bit more detail. You have to realize I'm not thinking purely in terms of optimization. D&D is not just a strategy battle game for me. It's also about what is going to be fun to do in and out of combat. Silent Image at will combined with Disguise Self at will and Minor Illusion just let's me have all kinds of fun and tests the limits of my imagination. :smallbiggrin: It just fits my character concept better.

I thought about Fiendish Vigor but that's less impressive at later levels. It would be great now, but there's nothing I can afford to give up for it right now. Some others feel like gravy. Arcane Eye would be nice to have, but I have a sneaky familiar. So it's very possible I'll eventually get Polymorph and Conjure Elemental.

I pretty much agree with your assessment, although if the spells didn't requires slots I would probably pick up Slow or Bestow Curse over Silent Image.

You're also right about stopping warlock at 17, which is pretty disappointing. There's hardly anything above there worth taking.

[ZombieRoboNinja]

What to do in those protracted battles? Same as the champion fighter, thief, monk, and so on: keep using your badass at-will abilities and blow the few daily/encounter resources you've saved up. Take solace in the fact that the wizard has to use daily spells just to keep up with your cantrip damage.

[MaxWilson]

I would also suggest taking some feats that give you additional resources to save up/expend on big fights. Lucky feat is one such. When an adult black dragon suddenly surges out of the marsh, that's an excellent time to use your Luck to ensure that you get initiative and maybe some more Lucky to ensure that you actually hit with your Repelling Blast and knock the dragon back far enough that the squishy wizard isn't in range of the wing buffet, for example.

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I would also suggest taking some feats that give you additional resources to save up/expend on big fights. Lucky feat is one such. When an adult black dragon suddenly surges out of the marsh, that's an excellent time to use your Luck to ensure that you get initiative and maybe some more Lucky to ensure that you actually hit with your Repelling Blast and knock the dragon back far enough that the squishy wizard isn't in range of the wing buffet, for example.

Oh, that's a good one.

Another couple feats that are helpful in a roundabout way are Inspiring Leader and/or Healer. They let you heal/buff temp hp every short rest, which gives the rest of the party a good incentive to take short rests more often, so you can get your spells back. ;)

[KiltieMacPipes]

Not really the way the world works, but there is the caveat of finding and sacrificing rats (or similar small animals) at the beginning of every day, and there's a whole level of practicality and likelihood of that. Maybe he would assign a percent chance to my ability to find one, or maybe he would say that I could do it if I spend X time looking and make X skill roll. I honestly don't know.

I also DM a warlock and I would say I don't see a huge issue with just casting it in the first combat of the day and having it up for 8 or 24 hours from there. That being said, I don't think the warlock I DM is clever enough to consider the rat-sacrificing option, and if he did, I would be so thrilled he was thinking ever-so-slightly outside the box I would reward it.

My Bladelock kept a small box of crickets for just such occasions.

Also, I think that the only spells I cast regularly with slots were Hex, Hellish Rebuke, and the occasional Counterspell (between me and the Wizard, we locked down his BBEG hard).

[Rummy]

Otherworldly leap is fantastic for Melee high strength types. I just can't wait until I can parachute in the the monk and tear stuff up. You can cast it on buddies too, don't forget.

Also, at will false life is functionally equivalent to starting every fight with 8 extra hp.

Darkness + Devils Sight = Melee dream.

[Dalebert]

Otherworldly leap is fantastic for Melee high strength types. I just can't wait until I can parachute in the the monk and tear stuff up. You can cast it on buddies too, don't forget.

Also, at will false life is functionally equivalent to starting every fight with 8 extra hp.

Darkness + Devils Sight = Melee dream.

You just talked about three reasons to dip just a couple levels of lock from other classes. The topic is clearly about people who are staying in the class through the early to mid levels. I think it's a problem with the class that it's super popular to dip but not so popular to go pure lock. You get extra goodies very quickly early on and then the stretch starts. To some extent, this is true with most classes but it's extra true with locks--two invocations that will probably have lots of usage and two spell slots that recover with each short rest. What's problematic is the fluff. Warlock means you entered into a pact for power and so many people seem to be entering into that pact for a quick level dip and some goodies. I've done it myself with an alt and felt weird about it, but the combo was just too good.

[Person_Man]

I really don't see an issue. Every non-full caster has to deal with the same lack of Daily resources to fall back on. They do so by having above average at-will and all day abilities. Warlock has one of the best at-will attacks in the game, and some excellent all day abilities. Despite their chart, the Warlock is not really a full caster. They're more like a Monk that happens to get access to 1st through 9th level spells.

[Felvion]

Returning to the thread to throw some in-game experience.
There is a party with a cleric and a wizard in it. I'm part of it for the levels 5-8 and there is a possibility that i change my current character for a skill-monkey/dpr so i decided that would be a warlock.
I know this for a couple of sessions now and since i was aware of the "stretch" i tried to pay attention in the casting tendencies those two (cleric and wizard) have. Take level 7 for example, they both have 4/3/3/1 spell slots. An average encounter would take 4-6 rounds on average. I saw a pattern in their moves, looking it on the long run it makes sense: After the first 2-3 rounds they had already decided whether they'd cast their 4rth level slot had. Also they'd probably 1) had some defensive spell on them (which was 9 out of 10 consuming their concentration), 2) tried to control the battle field or outdamage the opponents.
After those 2-3 rounds, if the battle was still on edge they would start throwing more and more of their higher level (3rd level) slots and probably dropping "the big ones" (4rth lvl slots). In that case both of them were sure they'd need a rest after such a fight.
I'm not sure whether those players are "good" or "bad" (i find them "good", perhaps not "exceptional" and definately better than just "ok" but who really cares! :smallcool:) or if there are others out there much more effective but their playstyle makes sense to me and helps me get some useful observations.
In case a warlock was there, he'd have to use one of his 4rth level slots for sure. In case the encounter kept going though he could still fill a ranged dpr role as at this level his average agonizing damage would be slightly better than a rogue's (or a bit worse if that rogue was sharpshooter or assassin[/I)]). Repelling Blast could add some minor/situationally useful control but it had to come in the cost of awesome out-of-combat other invocations so i don't take it into account. Had the battle not be "over" after 2-3 rounds he could easilly drop the second 4rth level spell which is too much for this level (merely 7!). Either as a huge battlefield control, a save or suck or a defensive buff to keep the at will dpr, this one should be encounter ending.
Of course i'm talking for the "casting-focused" warlock cause bladelock is an entirelly different story.

I take that it would be more or less of the same case scenario going on all the way up to 11. To be honest i don't think the warlocks power increases dramatically after that as an extra slot makes a nice but not huge difference in those levels and arcanums are not rechargable per short rest. But that's completely out of topic.
From what i see, a warlock could never outshine a wizard, a cleric or even a bard in terms of just casting. On the other hand he has lots of utility (plus some or [I]all the rituals potentially!) while hanging around with his high charisma is really cool.
On the other hand, when magic items come into play things change a lot. Get a rod of the pact keeper which is merely uncommon and you have the most undervalued caster item! You can regain one extra spell which comes at one action cost but is too good to turn down. Combine this with a ring of spell storing and you are equally good or even a better caster than the wizard or the cleric. Of course they do get magic items too but they have other needs to cover as well (eg armor for the cleric).

[Dalebert]

FWIW, this thread was recently resurrected (though not beyond the allowable time period to avoid violating terms). I'm conceding that I have been going on speculation as my lock is still just 4th level. I kind of understand why they limited their slots to just two since they're at the highest level and they recover every short rest. That gives them way more of their highest level slot than any other caster all the way to 9th level. This subject has been put to rest, at least in my mind. Feel free to add any thoughts you have, of course.

[metaridley18]

FWIW, this thread was recently resurrected (though not beyond the allowable time period to avoid violating terms). I'm conceding that I have been going on speculation as my lock is still just 4th level. I kind of understand why they limited their slots to just two since they're at the highest level and they recover every short rest. That gives them way more of their highest level slot than any other caster all the way to 9th level. This subject has been put to rest, at least in my mind. Feel free to add any thoughts you have, of course.

This does, of course, totally devalue Hex as time goes on. You want to cast a scaling spell or your highest spell with every slot, period, and there's normally a good use for Concentration outside of combat which causes Hex to poof.

I don't know that this is a bad thing, but most DPR optimization threads I've seen assume that your target will have Hex on them, and that's a REALLY difficult decision to make in game (speaking from several months of warlock play now), especially if you're competing with a 4th level Arms of Hadar, a pinch Counterspell, or a Fireball if you're a fiendlock.

It makes the desire to dip for 2 extra level 1 slots very hard to fight.

[SharkForce]

This does, of course, totally devalue Hex as time goes on. You want to cast a scaling spell or your highest spell with every slot, period, and there's normally a good use for Concentration outside of combat which causes Hex to poof.

I don't know that this is a bad thing, but most DPR optimization threads I've seen assume that your target will have Hex on them, and that's a REALLY difficult decision to make in game (speaking from several months of warlock play now), especially if you're competing with a 4th level Arms of Hadar, a pinch Counterspell, or a Fireball if you're a fiendlock.

It makes the desire to dip for 2 extra level 1 slots very hard to fight.

would it make it easier to discover that counterspell and fireball don't interfere with your hex in any way? (at least, not the act of casting them... depending on where you target the spell, it certainly could interfere...)

readying a spell breaks concentration. casting a spell as a reaction does not. counterspell is a reaction, not a readied spell.

fireball is not a concentration spell either, so unless you're readying it, once again, you can hold on to hex through it no problem.

[silveralen]

would it make it easier to discover that counterspell and fireball don't interfere with your hex in any way? (at least, not the act of casting them... depending on where you target the spell, it certainly could interfere...)

readying a spell breaks concentration. casting a spell as a reaction does not. counterspell is a reaction, not a readied spell.

fireball is not a concentration spell either, so unless you're readying it, once again, you can hold on to hex through it no problem.

The problem is more carrying hex through multiple combats. It locks you out of some nifty things like guidance, some invocations and rituals which a tome lock uses to help outside of combat. So you end up still being a bit behind in combat and nothing special out of it. Warlock is kinda difficult in that regard.

[SharkForce]

depends what you want. like I said, you can fireball to your heart's content :)

but yes, other things disrupt it. still, if you're going through a combat-heavy area, it's not that hard to plan accordingly.

[Dalebert]

It makes the desire to dip for 2 extra level 1 slots very hard to fight.

They actually came in very handy in a particularly tough combat for me. I believe I used one for a single-target Bane to save my higher level slots for more blasty stuph.

[Ashrym]

This does, of course, totally devalue Hex as time goes on. You want to cast a scaling spell or your highest spell with every slot, period, and there's normally a good use for Concentration outside of combat which causes Hex to poof.

I don't know that this is a bad thing, but most DPR optimization threads I've seen assume that your target will have Hex on them, and that's a REALLY difficult decision to make in game (speaking from several months of warlock play now), especially if you're competing with a 4th level Arms of Hadar, a pinch Counterspell, or a Fireball if you're a fiendlock.

It makes the desire to dip for 2 extra level 1 slots very hard to fight.

That's why hex isn't necessarily a given even used in damage calculations. There are plenty of spells known that compete with concentration, and so does book of ancient secrets. It is easy to cast and use, still.

The high level at-will ability is nice with the increased slots of 5th level spells.

The problem with a 2 level dip is it's 2 first level slots per short rest at the cost of 1 ASI, 2 high level slots per long rest, capstone, possibly spells known or prepared, and delayed access to ASI's, spells, and class abilities.

The choice isn't as easy as it first appears.

[metaridley18]

would it make it easier to discover that counterspell and fireball don't interfere with your hex in any way? (at least, not the act of casting them... depending on where you target the spell, it certainly could interfere...)

readying a spell breaks concentration. casting a spell as a reaction does not. counterspell is a reaction, not a readied spell.

fireball is not a concentration spell either, so unless you're readying it, once again, you can hold on to hex through it no problem.

But you're competing not with the concentration, but with the slot itself. As you get to higher levels, you want to use those slots on spells that scale or higher level spells or you throw away your biggest spellcasting asset as a warlock: the largest number of high level slots in the game.

The only advantage Hex provides at high levels is that you can carry it through multiple combats...but the second you need to cast Levitation or Silent Image through an invocation, you lose the Hex. (Or as others have said, Guidance, etc).

Don't even get me started on the fact that I'm a polearm wielder, so there's competition for the bonus action as well(obviously not every warlock will have this concern, but it's something that has been harder than I thought it would be when I took the feat).

[SharkForce]

the only competition for the slot comes from the fact that it's concentration. otherwise you could cast it some time in the morning before you even get into a fight, possibly even recover it by the time the party starts doing anything at all, and have it up all day without any issues whatsoever.

so really, the key there is concentration. the more you design to avoid needing to concentrate on other things, the more use you'll get out of hex in that slot.

[holygroundj]

But you're competing not with the concentration, but with the slot itself. As you get to higher levels, you want to use those slots on spells that scale or higher level spells or you throw away your biggest spellcasting asset as a warlock: the largest number of high level slots in the game.

The only advantage Hex provides at high levels is that you can carry it through multiple combats...but the second you need to cast Levitation or Silent Image through an invocation, you lose the Hex. (Or as others have said, Guidance, etc).

Don't even get me started on the fact that I'm a polearm wielder, so there's competition for the bonus action as well(obviously not every warlock will have this concern, but it's something that has been harder than I thought it would be when I took the feat).

Hex only competes in a round where you have a new target, so either the first round or you're moving to a new target. Also, adding 1d6 onto each of your two attack rolls is probably equivilent to 1d4+str, or maybe even better.

The problem with the "stretch" isn't the stretch itself: it's not being able to guarantee when a short rest will occur. When short rests were 5 minutes, it was much easier to get it in. Now that it's an hour, DM fiat is stronger more than ever.

If you can take a short rest whenever you want, then Warlocks, monks, and to a lesser extent fighters become combat monsters. Most classes have something that they can take advantage of during a short rest, but I'm going to be honest that my tempest cleric really doesn't care when we take a short rest. Since my DM is evil--a good thing to me--we dread taking short rests ever.

The poor warlock can go whole sessions with no spells due to the nature of our table. Heaven forbid that we would have a DM who would make the ruling that Hex expires at the end of combat.

[metaridley18]

Hex only competes in a round where you have a new target, so either the first round or you're moving to a new target. Also, adding 1d6 onto each of your two attack rolls is probably equivilent to 1d4+str, or maybe even better.

It really depends on the circumstance. Since 5E likes the "hoards of small creatures" more than "one big creature", and the relative quickness of combat, I may have to move it once every 1 or 2 turns. I'm perfectly aware of the benefits onto two attacks (and the bonus action in the case I don't have to move it), I'm just really surprised as to how challenging that's turning out to be in real play. I thought Hex was a no brainer and as you get 2nd level and up spells it isn't necessarily, as others have said.


The poor warlock can go whole sessions with no spells due to the nature of our table. Heaven forbid that we would have a DM who would make the ruling that Hex expires at the end of combat.

I can't even imagine. When you consider the 2 short rests per day recommended in the DMG, that warlock is really suffering compared to the rest of your party. He's basically a full caster with his spell slots cut by 2/3rds.