Have your character ever felt useless?

[Sudokori]

Have you ever played in a group where you felt like you couldn't do anything/contribute to the party?

Has your character been forced to sit and watch on the sidelines because they couldn't contribute anything whatsoever to the current challenge?

[Hyena]

Well, there was this every single time I played Star Wars Saga Edition as non-force sensitive...

[Red Fel]

Here's the thing. PC uselessness doesn't generally come out of nowhere. It usually emerges from a variety of factors. Class Utility. This is particularly infamous in D&D and related systems. Certain classes *coughCasterscough* are able to accomplish pretty much anything. If you're not playing one of those classes, it's extremely easy to be overshadowed. Because this is a mechanical issue, the only tried-and-true method of getting around it is talking to the players who use those classes and encouraging them to tone it down a bit. One-Trick Ponies. This is the converse of Class Utility, and one of the pitfalls of optimizing. Some players will design a character who is insanely good at a particular thing. The problem is that when anything is happening other than something that can be solved by that one thing, that character has absolutely nothing to contribute. Sure, playing a character who goes berserk and crushes walls is fun, but when you've gone three sessions without a single combat, he feels stale and useless. The best solution to this is to avoid focusing on a single trick to the exclusion of all others. Have backup skills. Or character depth. Game Style. Certain games are oriented around combat, others around social or investigative play, others around skills or crafting. This may be a function of the system itself, or of the particular game the GM is running. If you design a character for Style A - say, a social or diplomatic campaign - and the game is Style B - say, combat-oriented - you're going to feel left out. The best solution is to be informed - know what kind of game you'll be playing, and design a character accordingly. Player Balancing. Not all issues of usefulness stem from purely mechanical sources. Sometimes it's just a case of another player overshadowing you. Maybe it's accidental, maybe it's deliberate; maybe he's incredibly good at optimizing, maybe he just accidentally stumbled on something awesome. Communicating with other players to ensure that nobody steps on anybody's toes is a great way to avoid being overshadowed. GM Aggression. Sometimes, you have the bad luck to have a player accidentally overshadow you, or prepare the wrong character for the campaign. And sometimes, you have the bad luck of having a GM who hates your character, or worse, hates you. In that case, you may find yourself running into brick walls to be useful. When that happens, you're better off talking it out, or walking away. Also, consider the opposite of GM Aggression. Rather than taking pains to exclude a PC, the GM may take particular pains to make a PC feel like a valuable member of the team and contributor to the story. A GM with this tendency should be prized, because one with this skill can basically prevent the PCs from appearing useless, and do so in a way that feels natural and enjoyable.
I've been fortunate. In most of my games, I've had GMs who make each PC feel important in some way; at some point in any given campaign, I was in a situation where my PC was able to make the difference. That said, I have been in one campaign where my PC felt useless; it was one of my earliest campaigns, D&D, and the DM was running a DMPC god wizard who basically resolved all problems. We all just followed along like useless appendages and got killed a lot. Even in that campaign, though, I got my moment to shine, where a bit of clever flying on my part turned a telekinetic dwarf into chunky salsa.

[Slipperychicken]

Every time I play a non-caster in 3.5/PF. They can autoattack, maybe use a special attack, and that's it. Even when you're attacking stuff, you can only hope that the target isn't immune to your autoattack. Just about any situation that doesn't involve hurting people or breaking things is beyond the skills of a non-caster.

[Pex]

A 3.0 game where I was trying out a rogue archer - a class and combat style I've never played before. In one particular dungeon crawl all the bad guys were undead (no sneak attack) and had DR magic (no magic arrow, no magic bow). I had just joined the group so it was an adventure in progress. The DM wanted a rogue archer in group, and I was willing to give it a try precisely because I've never played either before. I don't know what he was thinking given the adventure. There were other circumstances regarding the players I've discussed elsethread that contributed to the fiasco. To summarize - spellcasters wanting and thrilled to buff themselves, each other, other party members, party member NPCs but never my character. It was a complete disaster.

Before then and ever since, I cannot, will not, play a rogue or an archer. I have no problem playing a spellcaster who casts attacks spells at a range, just not an archer. I have no problem playing a warrior who occasionally needs to fire a bow, just not an archer specifically. I have no problem with the rogue class and another player playing one without being a Jerk about it, and I know rogue != steals from the party, I just won't play a rogue myself.

[Milodiah]

Friend of mine had a human engineer in a steampunk WoD game, and he put so much work into his stuff. He had technical drawings of drones, weapons, airships, all that, done by himself (which was particularly impressive because he's not a mechanical engineer or anything of the sort), and everything his character made could probably hold up to scrutiny by an actual engineer IRL.

Then he gets character-janked.

The local That Guy joined the game, made a changeling character who halfassedly slapped things together with conspicuously duct-tape-like magic, and even then just made the same gun, over and over again, every time his character started tinkering. Even though it never became much more detailed than "a gun" the whole time...

[mephnick]

Skill focused Rogue in 3e. I can barely remember it, one of my first games. First two sessions were 100% combat and 100% constructs with DR. I basically just hid the entire time. At the end we all got killed by a steel minotaur or something. I don't think the DM meant to do it, we were like 12 and didn't know the rules well, but I hated it and didn't play for quite a while.

A 3.5 campaign I ran a while ago I think most of the party started feeling useless when the group druid really came into his own at mid levels. Everyone else was mundane or damage focused and my experience with 3.5 was almost purely low level. I learned a lot about tiers that day.

[Fumble Jack]

As a player in a 3.5 game, I was the caster support/debuffer for a party of Martial characters. The Dm kind of had a thing against casters & I'd be removed from any combat encounters from the start or have my magic limited in some way.

Saga edition game, built an Ithorian Force Wizard. The party & I were witnesses to the npcs. So we all felt useless.

[DigoDragon]

Here's an odd duck for ya-- happened to me the last two D&D campaigns I played. I was a caster in both cases (one a cleric, the other a wizard).

In the cleric's case the party was awarded lots of healing items from the DM while adventuring in lots of undead-free dungeons (we had plenty of chances to fight the undead, but the rest of the party always voted against those places). We never got above 4th level so my spell list was limited. I could fight decently, but everyone else was doing better on average with their higher BABs and fighter dips for bonus feats.

For the wizard, it was also an issue of never got above 4th level, being the only caster in this party, and the DM loving to throw things with SR at us like drow. I can get around the SR part with certain spells, but I didn't have many spells overall and the DM for this game played the random loot generation very straight. The results tended to skew toward weapons which I'm not proficient in and scrolls I couldn't cast from (specialist wiz).

[VincentTakeda]

Was a player in Pathfinders Rise of the Runelords and across 20 levels as a caster.
As a resource management junkie, we stopped counting the number of times my turn in initiative came up and I simply said 'meh, I think we're good.'

On the one hand they started out annoyed at how often I did absolutely nothing.
By the end though they really appreciated how well I was able to pick and choose my contributions to the action with timing and flair.

It was actually a really good thing that I wasnt always charging for the spotlight.
Sometimes its more important to everyone's fun at the table if your job isn't to constantly have something to do...
Instead, sometimes its best to, in the words of Dr. Ichiro Serizawa: Let them fight!

[Kamai]

3.5 Iron Kingdoms. DM let me play a Paladin of Cryss. My Unicorn mount was more useful than I was, especially next to the guy who had powered armor, or the sniper that just gibbed things. That left me diving for any trick and learning just how poorly designed prestige classes are.

[GloatingSwine]

Well, there was this every single time I played Star Wars Saga Edition as non-force sensitive...

IIRC there was a bit in the GM guide in the rulebook for the old Star Wars D6 game which was basically "everyone should be a Jedi or no-one is". Which is very very sensible for dealing with the setting given the capabilities of Force users.

[Silus]

Playing a support wizard in Rise of the Rune Lords in a group of ~6-8 when the AP was designed for 4.

[BWR]

Mundanes on those days when the terrain or the creature just messes you up, Other characters on those days when the dice just hate you. Characters significantly weaker than the rest of the group. Characters who are simply useless in a given situation.

Yup, that sort of thing happens every now and then. For the most part it isn't an issue.

[Anonymouswizard]

I've had two cases of it being possible, but they both went in opposite ways.

In Unknown Armies I built a Archer/Authentic Thaumaturge, where I was outshone in combat by the bruiser and in direct magic than the mechanomancer (who was allowed to use his magic to interact with mechanical devices better without spending charges), but the GM knew this would happen so my character was the one to understand magic we encountered and was the utility caster (especially once we used tilts to get buffs on command), and if I played in the system again I'd focus the character on tilts. I'm now playing a diplomancer/exorcist in his homebrew system, and we're all equally valuable again.

Immediately afterwards I played in a game of All Flesh must be Eaten run by another GM. He immediately shot down my first character idea, an Evangelical priest who had gained powers at the outbreak focused on party support and visions, because he didn't want any magic (he then gave his "scientific!" zombies magical powers without any explanation). He okayed my second character, a research omni-scientist (because the archetype I had to use had too many attribute and skill points), and then proceeded to tell me I couldn't use my five points of resources to start with a lab or any scientific equipment. He then made the game almost entirely combat, and threw combats at us whenever we took too long planning (bare in mind the last game I played in we'd spent two hours planning in the final session), in addition to not letting us do anything more intelligent than "scavenge" for several sessions. And despite the game being set in the 2020s/2030s I couldn't use my skill points in electronic engineering to build anything near cutting edge devices. I spent the entire game swinging a sword. He's effectively put me off the system (not to mention I checked the book and his skill DCs were too high). Bare in mind my character was the only scientist or electronic engineer in the party.

[Jay R]

No, and I don't see how it would be possible.

I was in a situation in which I was one of two people in the party with non-magical weapons, and couldn't hurt the undead we faced. So I ran around searching the room while the others were fighting it, and kept a potion of healing ready for one of them when needed.

More than once I've been a low-level wizard and had already used up all my spells. So I throw daggers, watch their backs, bind the wounds of somebody who's fallen unconscious, etc. Once I crawled behind a goblin on my hand and knees so he could be easily pushed over, and I've thrown dirt in the bad guy's eyes.

You are only useless if you won't do anything unless it's written on your character sheet.

[DigoDragon]

Yup, that sort of thing happens every now and then. For the most part it isn't an issue.

I'm trying to think of when those sitchs happen the most often and I think it's when I play the designated healer. Maybe it happens due to preconceptions from the GM/other PCs if they only see my character as a healing battery. But even with my above two caster examples it's true that it isn't a consistent thing. It's usually just how the situations play out for me.

[Sudokori]

Now that I think abut it, wouldn't a wizard without a spellbook go into the category of "useless" because they can't do anything and are about as effective as a commoner who throws daggers.

[Frenth Alunril]

My advice is to verify that you are role playing, not roll playing.

Some of the most worthless statistical characters I have played have been the most interesting and successful.

[Seto]

It happens pretty often, as I play a TWF fighter (non optimized game). I hit several times but for little damage.
So I can't really contribute when :
- The enemy stays away from melee (I do have a bow, but it's ridiculous)
- The enemy has pretty much any kind of DR etc.

But I still find ways to not be completely useless, like helping my teammates, distracting the enemy, trying no negotiate etc.

[Slipperychicken]

Now that I think abut it, wouldn't a wizard without a spellbook go into the category of "useless" because they can't do anything and are about as effective as a commoner who throws daggers.

In 5e, he'd still have the spell list he had prepared last. The spells would refresh every day (and also when he uses Arcane Recovery during a short rest), but he couldn't swap them out until he gets his book back.

[Raimun]

If the game permits it, I like to design well rounded characters with a few strong points/specializations for flavor. Being able to do many things, that's real optimization. You still need to do a few things better than anyone else in the party but there's no need to over do it, since you're just shooting yourself to your own leg if you do that.

Remember: :elan: "My mommy always used to say that cross-class learning was the key to a rich and fulfilling life."

I do this because it makes the game more fun for me and I've learned from past mistakes. I've played non-combat characters who were killed horribly because they were useless in a fight ( :xykon: "In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed."). I've also been almost bored to death when I could do nothing meaningful in non-combat sections of the game because the game system in question enforces that warrior types get no skills except jump and climb.

[jedipotter]

I get at least one of this type of character in most of the games I run.

The One Trick Pony is by far the most common. The character can only do one thing really well....and almost nothing else.

The Nova is a sub set of the pony. The character can do a couple amazing things....a couple times.....but almost nothing else after that.

The Clueless This player just does not know the rules or worse they think they know the rules. So they make a character based on what they think are the rules. And get no input from the DM. Then, when the game starts, that rule or two that they either did not know about or just ignored or thought worked the other way, comes back to haunt them.

Only Plan A A much more role playing one. This player is stuck in the idea that there is only one way to do something. So in 3.5E they encounter a locked door, but don't have the skill Open Locks, so they just move on. If there character does not have a specific ability on their sheet that does what they want, they make the character useless.

[azoetia]

No, and I don't see how it would be possible.

I was in a situation in which I was one of two people in the party with non-magical weapons, and couldn't hurt the undead we faced. So I ran around searching the room while the others were fighting it, and kept a potion of healing ready for one of them when needed.

More than once I've been a low-level wizard and had already used up all my spells. So I throw daggers, watch their backs, bind the wounds of somebody who's fallen unconscious, etc. Once I crawled behind a goblin on my hand and knees so he could be easily pushed over, and I've thrown dirt in the bad guy's eyes.

You are only useless if you won't do anything unless it's written on your character sheet.

This, so very much.

The only time I've ever felt useless was when I was being victimized by a DM, and arbitrarily being told "no" to everything I tried to do, which didn't last long.

[tensai_oni]

My advice is to verify that you are role playing, not roll playing.

Because role playing a useless bumbler who can't contribute meaningfully in any way is so much fun. Especially if that's not what you intended, but rather hoped to roleplay a mercenary, an up-and-coming warrior or something like that but instead got screwed over by poor game balance.

[Frenth Alunril]

Because role playing a useless bumbler who can't contribute meaningfully in any way is so much fun. Especially if that's not what you intended, but rather hoped to roleplay a mercenary, an up-and-coming warrior or something like that but instead got screwed over by poor game balance.

Or blame everything on balance. Even with bad game balance you can be useful. I once played a mage on the mage system, with no prime points. I was completely worthless! But...

I could certainly rp myself into situations that would gave my party advantage, or created disadvantage for our adversaries.

Role play wins in all cases.

Heck, playing a crusader, 3.5, I constantly overextended myself and had my party, a group of non-exploited standard characters who felt useless, come in to save me.

RP, even if flipping coins and agreeing on what comes next, always wins, even if others are cheating.

I can understand being upset at the table, but don't externalize what ultimately is subjective and personal

[Jay R]

Because role playing a useless bumbler who can't contribute meaningfully in any way is so much fun. Especially if that's not what you intended, but rather hoped to roleplay a mercenary, an up-and-coming warrior or something like that but instead got screwed over by poor game balance.

I've had characters in melees where they had no useful weapon. They got in the enemy's way, held healing potions, got on hands and knees behind an enemy so he could be pushed over.

There are always things you can do, even if no particular class feature recommends itself.

In an actual SCA melee, I've occasionally lost my sword arm to a blow, when my shield was strapped on so it couldn't come off quickly in a melee. I've used my shield alone to open an enemy's shield, made a shield rush to open a hole in their line, run toward an enemy yelling so he would look at me while my ally hit him, gotten behind the enemy line and shouted worthless commands, warned my allies about an attack from the side, etc.

[Sartharina]

I've had characters in melees where they had no useful weapon. They got in the enemy's way, held healing potions, got on hands and knees behind an enemy so he could be pushed over.

There are always things you can do, even if no particular class feature recommends itself.Unfortunately, not always :(


In an actual SCA melee, I've occasionally lost my sword arm to a blow, when my shield was strapped on so it couldn't come off quickly in a melee. I've used my shield alone to open an enemy's shield, made a shield rush to open a hole in their line, run toward an enemy yelling so he would look at me while my ally hit him, gotten behind the enemy line and shouted worthless commands, warned my allies about an attack from the side, etc.... all to no effect in a rules-heavy RPG that isn't capable of handling such situations, such as D&D (Because only casters can force will saves)

[Themrys]

Feelings of uselessness were usually confined to situations where highly specific skills were required. (Like "find out whether this stone is magical"). My groups never focused on effectivity, so everyone would happily take part in combat, even if this was not their main skill, or not one of their skills at all.

Of course there was this one time where the GM magically turned our characters into orcs, which in that game are heavily patriarchal to the point of considering women animals, so there was nothing a female character could do ... also, it seemed that the GM expected us to save the orcs, which my character, due to the treatment she experienced, had no motivation whatsoever to do.
I found something else to do, but the GM focused on the male player, and it was very boring for me. But that was intentional bad GMing, so I'm not sure it counts.

In most cases, I'd say it is a combination of an unskilled GM who uses adventures that don't fit the group, and players who don't invent creative solutions.

[azoetia]

... all to no effect in a rules-heavy RPG that isn't capable of handling such situations, such as D&D (Because only casters can force will saves)
I think that will depend on your DM, and perhaps your edition. Each thing Jay listed are things I'd allow to be attempted, and not in a "you can try, but you have a 1% chance of success lol" way. If it can be done in real life it can be done in D&D combat, as far as I'm concerned. If the rules don't cover it I'll make it up.

[mephnick]

I've had characters in melees where they had no useful weapon. They got in the enemy's way, held healing potions, got on hands and knees behind an enemy so he could be pushed over.

If I had attempted to make a bad-ass mercenary and all I could do was be a potion maid and resort to wacky 90's cartoon hijinx, I'd probably still feel pretty disappointed..

[AmewTheFox]

In my short time getting into TRPGs (one of the disadvantages of living out in the middle of nowhere) I have come across one.

It was a Dragon Age campeign, and I was a Mage. This is important because magic is a dangerous thing in the DA universe. Mostly that demons desire to possess you for your arcane energy and blah blah blah.

So, we had came across a powerful staff that we were sent to go get (they didn't say to give it to them) and I had been complaining about an acute lack of upgrades to my equipment, so naturally I took the staff with me when we were exiting the cave.

The DM then told me that we were surrounded by Darkspawn that matched our party (a detail I didn't notice until afterwards, so I opened fire. Then, basically, then we were informed, rather directly, that the staff started possessing my body, so the solution was to knock me out and try to deal with the incorporeal demon that the party eventually came to the conclusion that the demon was coming from a vial of blood on the bottom.

I did not have fun. I spent the entire fight knocked out, and any attempt at reviving me was met by the demon immediately trying to possess me again. Mind you, there was another Mage in the party and whatnot. No, the DM did not let me play as my possesed character(I would have totally still attacked the party, ya know) and I just kinda...felt unneeded in this whole scheme. Like I said, I didn't exactly said I had fun. The battle before(who was a Darkspawn mage who had said staff) was fun.

[Delwugor]

No, and I don't see how it would be possible.

I was in a situation in which I was one of two people in the party with non-magical weapons, and couldn't hurt the undead we faced. So I ran around searching the room while the others were fighting it, and kept a potion of healing ready for one of them when needed.

More than once I've been a low-level wizard and had already used up all my spells. So I throw daggers, watch their backs, bind the wounds of somebody who's fallen unconscious, etc. Once I crawled behind a goblin on my hand and knees so he could be easily pushed over, and I've thrown dirt in the bad guy's eyes.

You are only useless if you won't do anything unless it's written on your character sheet.
Exactly.

It is my job to make the most of my character and have him do something. If that means I run around poking creatures my weapon can't damage, fine. If it means I cover peoples back, they're covered. If it means I distract and interfere with the bad guys, done. Bandage and help the wounded, I'm there. If it means I'm human bait then ... crap I went to far.

If I let the system, class, numbers or anything else tell me that I can't do anything, then I've failed to play the best I can.

[Solaris]

Unfortunately, not always :(

... all to no effect in a rules-heavy RPG that isn't capable of handling such situations, such as D&D (Because only casters can force will saves)

You've never heard of flanking? Or the Goad feat?

[goto124]

You are only useless if you won't do anything unless it's written on your character sheet.


If I let the system, class, numbers or anything else tell me that I can't do anything, then I've failed to play the best I can.

It can be loads of fun, to be honest. However, I'd imagine that having to do that for too long can result in:


If I had attempted to make a bad-ass mercenary and all I could do was be a potion maid and resort to wacky 90's cartoon hijinx, I'd probably still feel pretty disappointed..

If the DM made it such that all your character's skills were completely useless for extended periods of time... something probably needs to change.

It's more of wondering why you even gave your character skills, when you don't get to use them. Sure, you could play as a mundane human who helps out only in 'creative' ways, but not everyone would like that.

[Jay R]

If I had attempted to make a bad-ass mercenary and all I could do was be a potion maid and resort to wacky 90's cartoon hijinx, I'd probably still feel pretty disappointed..

Insult received. But things I did when role-playing in the 70s and 80s cannot be fairly dismissed as coming from 90s cartoons.

Anybody who wants to be a bad-ass mercenary should be ready to want pull some new idea out when needed. Otherwise he's left the "bad-ass" out of the mercenary, and reduced the character to what an average mercenary would do.


It can be loads of fun, to be honest.

It is. A good DM tries to put you in difficult situations, in which the obvious skills aren't enough. A good player gets out.


If the DM made it such that all your character's skills were completely useless for extended periods of time... something probably needs to change.

As long as playing well is my greatest skill, the DM can't do this. In any event, no DM from 1975 to 2014 has been able to make me feel helpless, even in those occasional situations in which the specific skills on the character sheet aren't what's needed.

[Solaris]

Insult received. But things I did when role-playing in the 70s and 80s cannot be fairly dismissed as coming from 90s cartoons.

They can, however, be dismissed as coming from the Neolithic.
Like Scooby-Doo.


As long as playing well is my greatest skill, the DM can't do this. In any event, no DM from 1975 to 2014 has been able to make me feel helpless, even in those occasional situations in which the specific skills on the character sheet aren't what's needed.

And don't forget that a lack of skills needn't be a problem - in a pinch, BAB can substitute for a lot of skills! Diplomacy ("If you be friend, me no stab in face"), Hide ("If you no see, me no stab in face"), Move Silently ("If you no hear, me no stab in face"), Open Lock ("Me stab lock in face with adamantine dagger"), Heal ("Me stab you in face until you no dying anymore"), Climb ("Me stab rock face"), and so on!

[Dundee15]

Actually had a situation where my Rogue was useless against an enemy. It was some sort of gelatinous cube that was eating one of my teammates. After we discovered that physical damage didn't work on it and anyone inside became paralyzed we decided to take caution. I came up with a plan with the party Cleric, I spent a round handing him all my stuff, and even removed my armor and weapons, then grabbed two torches and lit them. I knew it was going to be a long shot on even doing anything. The following round I attacked, figuring I'd need to get lucky just to hit it, considering all the penalties I was taking for attacking with improvised weapons...

Nat. 20 and what do I win? "Your torch fizzles as it hits the goo, roll a reflex check"

Let's just say I'm glad I handed my gear to the cleric. :smallamused:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Generally speaking my characters are useless when everyone is useless, i.e. when the party tries to do something not ordained by a railroading GM. Examples are from 3.5.7-10th level characters trying to assassinate a 20th level fighting type with 20th level bodyguards inside of a permanent AMF flanked with dispelling screens and scry-proofing and so on. The situation screamed "can't kill these guys," as did most situations, but we had no clue what we were supposed to do other than that (they would have killed us on sight, and we knew we had to do something to them), so we came up with a plan.

The only thing we had was the element of surprise thanks to my character's sneakiness, which was allowed to work. We also had chain of eyes, someone who shot force arrows that could shoot through solid stone and pierce an AMF for a bunch of damage, and a bunch of Shrink Item'd boulders. At the same time the general got lit up with arrows, the boulders poured into the room, automatically being dispelled/suppressed and expanding to hit and crush the inhabitants inside. We were pretty sure that when the room filled with dozens of boulders and my character 'ported out they were done for. Again, they were mundanes in an AMF and got hit for what should have been many hundreds of damage in boulders and arrows, and subsequently crushed/suffocated to death with no magical means of escape due to their own "defenses." Some time later, we learned that the general survived with little to no explanation.

It was at that point that we all felt useless, since we had no idea what to do or how to have an effect on anything; the entire campaign was a big game of "guess what the GM is thinking," and we never actually did guess correctly. After stumbling to victory through egregious violence, the denouement was a flat explanation of what the hell was going on and what we were supposed to figure out and do.
There were a couple of times in my early gaming career where I missed a couple sessions and my character was so woefully under the wealth and level of the rest of the party that all he could do was avoid the main fray to not die.

Later in my gaming career I learned from these experiences and decided to optimize heavily in any game that was likely to end up with me being under-leveled; suffice to say under-leveled support casters contribute quite well without painting a "KILL ME" sign on their backs.

[goto124]

the entire campaign was a big game of "guess what the GM is thinking," and we never actually did guess correctly. After stumbling to victory through egregious violence, the denouement was a flat explanation of what the hell was going on and what we were supposed to figure out and do.

I'm guessing it was a computer game of sorts, since you couldn't talk to the GM. Am I right to say this?

Also, what was your party supposed to do? Was it something that you couldn't have figured out?

[DigoDragon]

If the DM made it such that all your character's skills were completely useless for extended periods of time... something probably needs to change.

I had something like that because of the other players. I made a tank that can absorb damage like it's a career. I was going to be the party shield so that the spellcasters and strikers could have a safe place to hide in between them flinging their attacks. But wow did those players keep charging headlong into melee. My ability to soak damage felt utterly useless when I was not used for that purpose.

I wasn't completely useless. I could do some damage on my own, and I had excellent interpersonal skills, but sometimes to feel effective with your build you need some other players to cooperate as a team. :smalltongue:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm guessing it was a computer game of sorts, since you couldn't talk to the GM. Am I right to say this?

Also, what was your party supposed to do? Was it something that you couldn't have figured out?No need to patronize me. It wasn't a computer game - though it sometimes felt like one, what with invisible walls and what effectively was automatic re-spawning - and of course we talked to him. We voiced our concerns repeatedly. It was just how the game was constructed, and he wasn't one to budge. We pretty much went to a place, tried to figure out what was going on, who was actually important, and how to influence them in the right way, all with very little in the way of NPC input. In theory we could get the right person, but it was such a crapshoot that we mostly did trial and error and then someone would run out of patience and go nuts. The game was okay enough otherwise to see through, but play styles crashed and everyone moved on.

[Solaris]

Actually had a situation where my Rogue was useless against an enemy. It was some sort of gelatinous cube that was eating one of my teammates. After we discovered that physical damage didn't work on it and anyone inside became paralyzed we decided to take caution. I came up with a plan with the party Cleric, I spent a round handing him all my stuff, and even removed my armor and weapons, then grabbed two torches and lit them. I knew it was going to be a long shot on even doing anything. The following round I attacked, figuring I'd need to get lucky just to hit it, considering all the penalties I was taking for attacking with improvised weapons...

Nat. 20 and what do I win? "Your torch fizzles as it hits the goo, roll a reflex check"

Let's just say I'm glad I handed my gear to the cleric. :smallamused:

If it makes you feel better, that's not how gelatinous cubes work. At all. Or any of the other core oozes, really. That story's a pretty good example of why DMs should be careful about just making stuff up. Sure, sometimes it's fun... but most of the time, it results in pointless frustration for the players.


No need to patronize me. It wasn't a computer game - though it sometimes felt like one, what with invisible walls and what effectively was automatic re-spawning - and of course we talked to him. We voiced our concerns repeatedly. It was just how the game was constructed, and he wasn't one to budge. We pretty much went to a place, tried to figure out what was going on, who was actually important, and how to influence them in the right way, all with very little in the way of NPC input. In theory we could get the right person, but it was such a crapshoot that we mostly did trial and error and then someone would run out of patience and go nuts. The game was okay enough otherwise to see through, but play styles crashed and everyone moved on.

You're a more patient man than I.
I don't think I would've been able to keep playing after you pulled off that brilliant plan to kill a character ten levels higher than yours... and the DM just said "Nope, he survived 'cause CHOO-CHOO, you're on a railroad!"

[Jay R]

It was at that point that we all felt useless, since we had no idea what to do or how to have an effect on anything; the entire campaign was a big game of "guess what the GM is thinking," and we never actually did guess correctly.

This is a DM problem, not a "useless character" problem.

If the DM creates a situation with a specific solution, you have to guess right, because nothing else will work. But if he creates a situation with no solutions, then you have free rein to come up with something cool, like throwing shrunken boulders at somebody in an anti-magic field.


There were a couple of times in my early gaming career where I missed a couple sessions and my character was so woefully under the wealth and level of the rest of the party that all he could do was avoid the main fray to not die.

This is one of many problems created or made much worse by the unintended consequences of the rules to 3E. Before that, up until you reached the highest levels, if you had half as many XPs as the rest of the party, you were only one level down, and would level up long before they did.


Later in my gaming career I learned from these experiences and decided to optimize heavily in any game that was likely to end up with me being under-leveled; suffice to say under-leveled support casters contribute quite well without painting a "KILL ME" sign on their backs.

Exactly. The joy of any so-called "useless character" is that she's not likely to be a main target, and therefore has more scope for clever tricks.

The biggest weakness comes if the player is not clever.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This is a DM problem, not a "useless character" problem.Sure, the root cause of character uselessness was the DM in this case. But the character was still useless.
If the DM creates a situation with a specific solution, you have to guess right, because nothing else will work. But if he creates a situation with no solutions, then you have free rein to come up with something cool, like throwing shrunken boulders at somebody in an anti-magic field.In this situation it looked like there was no solution, and we came up with something wonky. It wasn't the one "right" solution, so it didn't work (at least not as intended; as explained post-campaign we pissed him off enough that he wasn't going to do whatever it was we didn't want him to do.)
This is one of many problems created or made much worse by the unintended consequences of the rules to 3E. Before that, up until you reached the highest levels, if you had half as many XPs as the rest of the party, you were only one level down, and would level up long before they did.The wealth part was a big deal as well, which I suppose is also an artifact of 3e.
Exactly. The joy of any so-called "useless character" is that she's not likely to be a main target, and therefore has more scope for clever tricks.

The biggest weakness comes if the player is not clever.In this case the cleverness was less important than the optimization.

[Hobbes1266]

In a Dresden files game I made a social character. Within five minutes of the first session we were swiftly in a combat that lasted the whole session and the other players locked my character in a gun cabinet.

[goto124]

Did the DM allow you to get a gun and try to blast your way out? Or to get out at all?

[Hobbes1266]

I was just kind of ignored. It was the first game he had ever run and no one really knew the system.

[Telok]

My 4e characters were repeatedly useless during the year we played that system. We discovered that a bard could need three different magic weapons to use his abilities and spending money on rituals instead could make you pretty lame in combat. Then we discovered that there were only about four useful rituals anyways.
The druid was capable in combat but could only rack up failures in skill challenges because none of the published challenges we got to used healing, perception, or nature. It also turned out that having a passive perception score higher than anyone else could roll meant that the stealth rules never got used.
Then there was the paladin. Man, trying to run a strength pally before enough splats came out just didn't work. There weren't enough strength powers to fill his list, everything else ran off of charisma, and only having two skills meant sitting out the skill challenges again.

I've had AD&D fighters seduce half the women at court and expose a doppleganger plot. I've taken 3.5 rogues trick golems into smashing each other to bits and tip skeletons into yawning chasms. I had a WFRP archer help take out a demon that was immune to arrows and stole from the thieves guildmaster in broad daylight and got away with it. In HERO an alcoholic werewolf blew up the Statue of Liberty (mostly on accident) because he couldn't land a hit on a martial artist.
4e was the first system were I felt useless because the game had rules to cover things that weren't in the normal rule set, but using those rules was worse for the party or the character because you didn't get the bonuses you had with your regular actions. The 4e math was so tight and balanced that without those bonuses doing things outside your trained skills and class powers meant that you almost always failed and it would have been better if you hadn't tried. It was the first system I've ever played where doing things not on your character sheet just didn't work.

[Jay R]

4e was the first system were I felt useless because the game had rules to cover things that weren't in the normal rule set, but using those rules was worse for the party or the character because you didn't get the bonuses you had with your regular actions. The 4e math was so tight and balanced that without those bonuses doing things outside your trained skills and class powers meant that you almost always failed and it would have been better if you hadn't tried. It was the first system I've ever played where doing things not on your character sheet just didn't work.

You give me another reason (not that I needed one) to never play 4E.

[Sudokori]

4e was the first system were I felt useless because the game had rules to cover things that weren't in the normal rule set, but using those rules was worse for the party or the character because you didn't get the bonuses you had with your regular actions. The 4e math was so tight and balanced that without those bonuses doing things outside your trained skills and class powers meant that you almost always failed and it would have been better if you hadn't tried. It was the first system I've ever played where doing things not on your character sheet just didn't work.

Man, that must suck. Sounds like 4e was hell bent on crushing non-character-appropriate creativity. Any tabletop game that is against creativity can't be any fun.

[Scipio_77]

Now that I think abut it, wouldn't a wizard without a spellbook go into the category of "useless" because they can't do anything and are about as effective as a commoner who throws daggers.

Depends. If you have a lot of knowledge skills you can still be the most important character in the party.

[Optimator]

I once had a bastard sword and shield dual-wielding Drow Fighter in a level 19 game. It was back in like, '05 and I didn't have nearly the system mastery I do now. It was pretty brutal. Several encounters had me doing no damage due to DR.

[Sudokori]

Depends. If you have a lot of knowledge skills you can still be the most important character in the party.

Ugh. For some reason this makes my inherent dislike of magic users even greater

[Milodiah]

It was a two-person game. I was a low-op bard. Other guy was a high-op factotum.

You can imagine how that felt, as well as why I still have a lingering distaste for factotums.


Also, the "creative solutions" thing can sometimes hinge on an understanding of the setting that players often don't have. In said game, we were dumped into a city with the whole "amnesia" cover story, and when we went to the house of the only person who seemed to know what was going on, it was being burglarized. I figured I'd call over the local guards so that they'd do their jobs.

Nope. This setting we know nothing about is apparently a dystopia. We get imprisoned for an indefinite amount of time (I got the feeling it was 'until you *******s break out and continue the plot') as "witnesses". Because everyone knows the best way to build a case is to arrest and imprison your witnesses. And I'd like to point out this wasn't one of those "you're actually enemies of the state, you just can't remember it" situations. We had nothing on our criminal records.

So of course, I felt no desire to attempt another "clever" solution, when I was sure I'd be punished for it.

[roko10]

And don't forget that a lack of skills needn't be a problem - in a pinch, BAB can substitute for a lot of skills! Diplomacy ("If you be friend, me no stab in face"), Hide ("If you no see, me no stab in face"), Move Silently ("If you no hear, me no stab in face"), Open Lock ("Me stab lock in face with adamantine dagger"), Heal ("Me stab you in face until you no dying anymore"), Climb ("Me stab rock face"), and so on!

Can I please sig this?

[Solaris]

Can I please sig this?

By all means!

[sktarq]

In terms of how much the "useless" character can change things. I have repeatedly be told to make a "useless" character. Sometimes they have had the cover of things like a "driver" or "chartographer" but at times I've been given a strength 3 character. Its a style thing. Its about focusing on puzzles, about changing the environment to your advantage, about thinking about what would logically being in the place described and what could be done with those things. Its about thinking about strategy more than tactics. Its a tough way to play but one where you are often playing as much a head game with the GM (and sometimes party) as much as the monsters your buddies are facing.


My first one was a flumph.-not very great in combat since the rules for monstrous characters had not been published yet-but it is why I love to use a flumph as my avatar here.

So over my years of playing it is the "useless" characters I have probably loved the most and hold my most cherished gaming memories.

[Doorhandle]

In my experiences in 3.5/pathfidner I have found that avoiding useless character is probably why I prefer melee. They may not be flexible, but it's hard to mess up your basic ability to kill things, and it's just more satisfying than being able to fall back on healing as a cleric.

Helps it's usually low level: The highest character I've had in both is level 7. Even at high levels then though, a warrior's ability to deal damage and take hits is very appreciated, especially in the dungeon-crawling living campaign, where there's a large level range and so even the muchkins may have trouble helping...

[Lentrax]

Exactly. The joy of any so-called "useless character" is that she's not likely to be a main target, and therefore has more scope for clever tricks.

The biggest weakness comes if the player is not clever.

Useless characters? Yeah. The fighter in a group of casters.

I invest the time in seeing that my vision of a character who spent her whole adventuring career in backstory. Who had incredible moments of her own(in backstory, would have been used in 'Revenge' style plots later). And was then promptly told to 'get lost' cause she isn't a spellcaster. And when she tried to stand up for herself, was spelled in the face. And when we finally got to a real combat? Was usually finished before she could do anything. Or it was determined that it was too much, and the mages teleported out.

So it isn't always a 'you have to be creative, and adapt.' Sometimes it's a "you brought a knife to a gunfight. And your party is full of jerks."

Cleverness only gets you so far when your own party spells you to be their meatshield. Creativity can only do so much when you've been effectively rendered useless. And made into an object for other players gratification. Usually by debasement of aforementioned carefully constructed character.

So, yes. There are such things as useless characters.

[Sudokori]

Useless characters? Yeah. The fighter in a group of casters.

I invest the time in seeing that my vision of a character who spent her whole adventuring career in backstory. Who had incredible moments of her own(in backstory, would have been used in 'Revenge' style plots later). And was then promptly told to 'get lost' cause she isn't a spellcaster. And when she tried to stand up for herself, was spelled in the face. And when we finally got to a real combat? Was usually finished before she could do anything. Or it was determined that it was too much, and the mages teleported out.

So it isn't always a 'you have to be creative, and adapt.' Sometimes it's a "you brought a knife to a gunfight. And your party is full of jerks."

Cleverness only gets you so far when your own party spells you to be their meatshield. Creativity can only do so much when you've been effectively rendered useless. And made into an object for other players gratification. Usually by debasement of aforementioned carefully constructed character.

So, yes. There are such things as useless characters.

Wow, I would have done something differently.

It would have gone something like this.
Caster player: hey go hit the baskalisk in the face with your sword.
Me: but we don't need to fight it! We can move around it.
Caster: I cast charm on your character so he has to do It.
Me: he passes his save
Caster: you didn't roll anything
Me: that's because I don't listen to *******s.
Caster: But-
Me: I DONT LISTEN TO *******S
Caster: Dm are you gonna allow this?!?
Dm: well you are a jerk...

[Milo v3]

Wow, I would have done something differently.

It would have gone something like this.
Caster player: hey go hit the baskalisk in the face with your sword.
Me: but we don't need to fight it! We can move around it.
Caster: I cast charm on your character so he has to do It.
Me: he passes his save
Caster: you didn't roll anything
Me: that's because I don't listen to *******s.
Caster: But-
Me: I DONT LISTEN TO *******S
Caster: Dm are you gonna allow this?!?
Dm: well you are a jerk...

Technically, you don't have to hear what the caster says since it's not language dependant, the only restriction iirc is that you have to speak a language the target would understand. Though, you still have the choice to not do what the caster wants if you wouldn't do it for a friend.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wow, I would have done something differently.

It would have gone something like this.
Caster player: hey go hit the baskalisk in the face with your sword.
Me: but we don't need to fight it! We can move around it.
Caster: I cast charm on your character so he has to do It.
Me: he passes his save
Caster: you didn't roll anything
Me: that's because I don't listen to *******s.
Caster: But-
Me: I DONT LISTEN TO *******S
Caster: Dm are you gonna allow this?!?
Dm: well you are a jerk...

Would your character still be useful when you actually get to fights? Because if he just comes up with plans, that's not actually your character, that's you, ignoring everything on your character sheet.

And you interrupt him by yelling and insulting his character. Regardless of whether it's true, I'm going to assume the DM is looking at you when he says "well you are a jerk".

[Solaris]

Would your character still be useful when you actually get to fights? Because if he just comes up with plans, that's not actually your character, that's you, ignoring everything on your character sheet.

And you interrupt him by yelling and insulting his character. Regardless of whether it's true, I'm going to assume the DM is looking at you when he says "well you are a jerk".

Naw, I'd say yelling at someone is deserved when they resort to magical means of control to make your character do what they want.
At that point, why even bother showing up?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Naw, I'd say yelling at someone is deserved when they resort to magical means of control to make your character do what they want.
At that point, why even bother showing up?

Sure it's a bad solution from the wizard's player, but when someone new joins the group, brings a severely underpowered character, then yells at another player when they have a different plan, who's going to get kicked out?

[Solaris]

Sure it's a bad solution from the wizard's player, but when someone new joins the group, brings a severely underpowered character, then yells at another player when they have a different plan, who's going to get kicked out?

I'd say that depends on the group. If it's mine, odds are pretty good I'm giving the wizard the boot if he can't be made to see why what he did is wrong. After all, avoiding an encounter is a perfectly legitimate strategy. I value a player who thinks more than a value a player who wields magic like a big stick to bludgeon through all problems.

"Severely underpowered" doesn't impact my game nearly so badly as "spontaneous player-on-player action", and magically taking control of another player's character is just adding insult to injury.

[Frenth Alunril]

I'd say that depends on the group. If it's mine, odds are pretty good I'm giving the wizard the boot if he can't be made to see why what he did is wrong. After all, avoiding an encounter is a perfectly legitimate strategy. I value a player who thinks more than a value a player who wields magic like a big stick to bludgeon through all problems.

"Severely underpowered" doesn't impact my game nearly so badly as "spontaneous player-on-player action", and magically taking control of another player's character is just adding insult to injury.

In my game, spontaneous p-on-p = npc, and I get to chose your next class.

House rules ;)

If you play with jerks, and they measure your character on any statistic other than your performance, may as well find a new group ;)

[Marlowe]

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/252x373q90/912/TszEzM.jpg

[Jay R]

Useless characters? Yeah. The fighter in a group of casters.

I invest the time in seeing that my vision of a character who spent her whole adventuring career in backstory. Who had incredible moments of her own(in backstory, would have been used in 'Revenge' style plots later). And was then promptly told to 'get lost' cause she isn't a spellcaster. And when she tried to stand up for herself, was spelled in the face. And when we finally got to a real combat? Was usually finished before she could do anything. Or it was determined that it was too much, and the mages teleported out.

So it isn't always a 'you have to be creative, and adapt.' Sometimes it's a "you brought a knife to a gunfight. And your party is full of jerks."

Cleverness only gets you so far when your own party spells you to be their meatshield. Creativity can only do so much when you've been effectively rendered useless. And made into an object for other players gratification. Usually by debasement of aforementioned carefully constructed character.

So, yes. There are such things as useless characters.

That's not a useless character. That's a useless game.

Nobody has denied that other players can be jerks, and ruin the game. Go play with some friends.

[Kira_the_5th]

You could argue my first mistake was making a fighter in a Pathfinder game.

Joke aside, the full story is a bit of a rant, so spoilers below.

When I was invited to join a premade Adventure Path, my first thought was "OK, it's an adventure balanced around 4 PCs and a 15 Point Point Buy. I don't need to optimize; I can just build a character that fits the setting." When I saw the the rest of the group was a Crossbow fighter, a barbarian, a ranged Magus, and a Nature mystery Oracle, I thought that having a charismatic fencer would be a fine member of the team. My rolled stats were pretty strong across the board, so I was able to invest in social skills enough to be the party face. (Particularly useful as the Oracle, the only other Charisma-heavy party member, hadn't put much into socials.) After the first session went well, we all had a good feeling about how the campaign would go.

Then we got to the second session.

Pretty much everything our party went through was an attempt to completely destroy our party. Social situation? Whoever we were talking to refused to talk to me, forcing the others to have to stumble their way through. I manage to disarm an enemy? That's OK, they had another, better weapon stashed away that they could now use. My 40+ AC? That just meant getting hit 85% of the time instead of the 100% of the time the others had to deal with. The party as a whole seemed to have similar problems. The constant amount of times we were getting hit meant the Oracle had to nova pretty much every encounter in order to keep the party from dying, the barbarian couldn't stay in combat due to constantly being on the verge of death, (and was constantly grappled, mind-controlled, nauseated, or pretty much any other debuff that would remove her from the fight), while the ranged characters had to deal with the front lines constantly falling apart. On top of that, no villain the party ever fought stayed dead, in one form or another. The first major opponent we fought at 1st level? Still fighting her at 14th. The first BBEG, who ended up getting killed by a DMPC? While we didn't need to fight him again, we did have to deal with pretty much everyone telling us he could have been redeemed, and that we were the monsters for putting him down. Pretty much any achievement our party sought would be stolen out form under us by one of the DM's many many DMPCs.

Eventually, we just ended up ditching the whole thing, simply because none of us were having any fun watching our characters fail time and time again while cardboard-thin NPCs stole all the glory. We then found out that the DM's endgame was basically "every opponent from the last six modules gets into a battle royale to see which one of them gets to kill you hardest," at which point we promptly never gamed with the guy again.

[Sudokori]

Snip!

Wow, that sounds awful. I thought it was going to be about a player making another player useless, not the Dm making all the players useless. Did he even like any of you or was he a (not nice) person in and out of D&D.

[Kira_the_5th]

Wow, that sounds awful. I thought it was going to be about a player making another player useless, not the Dm making all the players useless. Did he even like any of you or was he a (not nice) person in and out of D&D.

He was actually dating one of the players at the time, although not for too long after. Out of game, he was a decent guy, and the reason the game went on for as long as it did was because it was a weekly game we'd do after meeting for dinner. We wanted to keep up the tradition of our group making and having dinner together, but he just acted terribly in game for so long that no one could take any more. Last I'd heard, he'd started another AP with another group, and was getting extremely annoyed when one of the players brought in a highly optimized Synthesist to just smash through whatever plan he had to railroad them.