Making the players think out side the box.

[Guinea Anubis]

So one of my favorit things to do as a DM is to make my players think out side of the box.

On of the things I did to them was they had to pick a side in a soon to be war. One side was ruled by a Lich, the other was ruled by an Elf. So my players with out looking in to anything about eather side picked the Elf. Boy where they pissed off when it turns out that the Elf was really a shape changed Red Dragon and the Lich was the good guy of the war.

Another one I did was they where working there way through a "new" dungeon that was only like 50 years old. It was made by a Wizard trying to find an old stone tablet that had a really powerfule spell on it. Well they get to two doors with the whole " one door leads to life and door leads to death" riddle. Well it turned out both door lead to death, the right "door" was the hallway off to the side with an Illusion spell on it to make it look like just part of the wall. After all if you made a dungeon knowing that you oue have someone trying to stop you, why would you put a riddle in that would help them get to you and stop you or even kill you.

So there is two of mine, what have you done to make your players think out side the box?

[its_all_ogre]

it does not work in my group at the mo. :-(

[LCR]

I usually think like this. I always suspect the good elf to be a shapechanged dragon, which, of course, he never is. My DM thinks, I'm paranoid.

[Jayabalard]

It can be fun occasionally, but if you overuse them, or base an entire campaign around it it makes it feel like you're playing the game in an episode of Robot Chicken (the "What a Twist!" one).

[Guinea Anubis]

It can be fun occasionally, but if you overuse them, or base an entire campaign around it it makes it feel like you're playing the game in an episode of Robot Chicken (the "What a Twist!" one).

Ya you do have to be sure not to over use it. I find that doing one about every 6 months is just about right for my group.

[Ashdate]

I think you can't FORCE your players to think outside the box. presenting them the option of joining a lich or an elf isn't REALLY giving them a chance to think outside the box. Now, if they joined the invisible 'third side' that wasn't presented, then sure, but the whole point about thinking outside the box is that you don't present them the third alternative explicitly, and in fact, you probably haven't thought yourself of the third option.

Also, a lot of 'outside thinking' is going to be done by themselves when presented with a challenge. Not to toot my own horn, but myself (a Wizard) and a Paladin (both 4th level) were presented with jumping down a 60ft cliff so as not to get separated from the members who had fallen the 60ft while trying to cross what once was a bridge.

I had a scroll of featherfall, but since it was crafted as a level one spell it would only affect one person. My solution? Cast it on the Paladin, and have her pick me up and then jump down.

The important thing to remember is their 'thinking outside the box' SHOULDN'T necessarily be the 'best' solution. It should simply be 'a' solution which can be weighted against the others.

- Eddie

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

The important thing to remember is their 'thinking outside the box' SHOULDN'T necessarily be the 'best' solution. It should simply be 'a' solution which can be weighted against the others.

- Eddie

^

Agreement!


There's nothing more obnoxious than a player who insists on trying something overly complicated because it's "different" when there are several perfectly reasonable, more ordinary solutions to use.

-Blue

[Jannex]

There's nothing more obnoxious than a player who insists on trying something overly complicated because it's "different" when there are several perfectly reasonable, more ordinary solutions to use.


The truly staggering thing is when the reasonable, ordinary solutions don't seem to occur to the players...

I'm reminded of an incident a couple of years ago. My fellow PCs and I were in a dungeon, and had just triggered a pit trap in front of the door through which we were supposed to proceed. We retrieved the character who had fallen in, but now there's a big hole between us and where we're going.

The other players immerse themselves in elaborate discussions involving Tenser's Floating Disks and Jump checks and all manner of unnecessarily complicated things.

I look at the DM and say, "You described the room prior to this one as being filled with various sorts of debris? I go back there and look for a nice, sturdy plank of wood--maybe a broken door or something." He has me make a Search check; I roll well. I find a nice, sturdy plank of wood, pick it up, go back into the other room, and put it over the hole.

Now, I kinda figured that there'd be some forehead-slapping, why-didn't-I-think-of-that as a result of what I believed was a fairly obvious, simple solution. I was mistaken. "That's a great idea," another player told me, "I would never have thought of that." :smalleek:

[mikeejimbo]

On of the things I did to them was they had to pick a side in a soon to be war. One side was ruled by a Lich, the other was ruled by an Elf. So my players with out looking in to anything about eather side picked the Elf. Boy where they pissed off when it turns out that the Elf was really a shape changed Red Dragon and the Lich was the good guy of the war.

My group would have sided with the Lich because they hate elves and are evil anyway. When they found out he was good, they'd kill him and subvert his army, then join forces with the Red Dragon and take over the world.

I have a weird group, though.

[Diggorian]

For outside the box tactics, I'll place an encounter in the most reasonable path then put different/lesser challenges onto the other options.

Party wants to get to dungeon A along the direct road B. The crest a hill before a lightly wooded valley and notice big hobgoblin encampent (Encounter A2) topping the next hill. Not visible are the dozens of archer points hidden on the upslope leading to it (EncounterA1). Circumventing North risks patrols of Worgs with barbarian levels (EncounterB). To the South, an unpatrolled canyon with several natural hazards: rockslides, quicksand, flash floods (EncounterC1-3). How they meet these challenges is up to them.

I prefer smaller scene twists to common plot wrenchers. Adjustments to the dramatic tension eliminate boredom.

Rogue spots a 20ft long stretch of break away tiles covering a 20ft deep spike pit with a 19 Search check. A narrow ledge runs along each side. Moving across it triggers the real trap (Search DC 25): ledge begins to fold into the wall while the spike pit fills with a carnivorous beetle swarm. :smallamused:

[LotharBot]

"Thinking outside the box" is not about the DM tricking the players with a plot twist. "The elf is really an evil dragon and the lich is good" doesn't encourage players to think outside the box, it just encourages them to be paranoid. "The simple trap you avoided was just to make you ignore the harder trap" doesn't encourage thinking outside the box, it just encourages paranoia.

"Thinking outside the box" is about the PLAYERS coming up with unique solutions to problems. The way to encourage that? Create a problem that doesn't have an obvious, correct solution. Then just let your players create one.

For example, have a massive enemy army that's overrun one of your cities. You don't have a big enough army to fight back. You also don't have level 9 spells yet. Put the scenario in front of the players and see what they do -- do they try to assassinate the enemy leaders? Use illusion spells to make themselves look like the enemy leaders, and send the army on a suicide mission into a different country's territory? Hire some dragons or other mercenaries? Acquire an artifact that's specially designed to pwn whatever creatures you're fighting? If you allow for any of these but don't point them out, your players might pick one of them... or they might think outside the box and create an entirely new solution.

[Lemur]

I think you can't FORCE your players to think outside the box.

I can. BEHOLD MY BRILLIANCE!

The players encounter a sealed box that contains something they need. They have to think of a way to open the box in order to get inside. Therefore, they must do all their thinking outside the box.

[Jarawara]

Aha! I know the solution! To open the box, you have to get in the box, figure out the lock, and open it from the inside!

That's thinking *inside* the box!

[Jayabalard]

obviously the way to be thinking about the box is: step 1, cut a hole in the box...

[Gargleblast]

Unscrew the hinges. Opens the box and avoids the trap on the lock.:smallsmile:

[kamikasei]

I can. BEHOLD MY BRILLIANCE!

The players encounter a sealed box that contains something they need. They have to think of a way to open the box in order to get inside. Therefore, they must do all their thinking outside the box.

Fool! You imagine that however fiendishly clever your word games, you will ever manage to force players to think?!?

[goat]

They just CHOSE a side?

The fools. Every adventurer worth their salt knows that the correct side in any war (not directly affecting you) is the one paying the most.

[martyboy74]

They just CHOSE a side?

The fools. Every adventurer worth their salt knows that the correct side in any war (not directly affecting you) is the one paying the most.
Nonsense! The best choice is to get highly destructive spells, and go on a indiscriminate killing rampage in the middle of the battle to get tons of xp!

\/ How many parties would actually have a different outlook because of that?

[NullAshton]

You could force them to be outside the box. Have them, through some magical incident, have them play as creatures or humanoids that are generally thought to be evil.

[PnP Fan]

There is no box.

Seriously, I don't bother coming up with ready made solutions for my players. I put them in a bad situation, and watch them squirm until they attempt something (with a little nudge here and there, so we don't get caught in an endless discussion).
What you are doing to encourage players to think is called lying, and LotharBot is right, it promotes paranoia more than thought. Not that a little paranoia isn't healthy in a campaign, but if they think you are just going to screw with them all the time, it can make for slow evenings as they debate all of the ways to protect themselves from you. That tends to happen with more experienced groups anyway, but their's no point in reinforcing the behavior. Out of box thinking is something to be treasured when it happens, but you shouldn't try and force it. Give it room to happen, don't give them an "either . . .or" problem. Just give them a problem, I'm sure they'll surprise you. :-)

[Lord_Kimboat]

My favorite of this actually occurred in party politics. The Ninja character had been ordered to get the regular group to his home country ASAP. However, the Paladin had just gotten enough funds to get himself some masterwork full plate made and then enchanted, so we stopped in a city and had to wait two months while the armor was constructed.

The Ninja's player fumed about the delay and he proposed several plans out of character to convince the Paladin to abandon the armor including kidnapping children and sending them to the country, trying to fake a divine vision on the paladin, etc.

It was then that one of the other players suggested, "why don't you just kill the armorer?" The Ninja's player just blinked a few times and then said, "uh yeah, I could just do that."

The simple plans are often the best.

[Diggorian]

obviously the way to be thinking about the box is: step 1, cut a hole in the box...

And, ofcourse, step 2 is putting your junk in that box ... to avoid encumberence penalties, right? :smallwink:


"Thinking outside the box" is not about the DM tricking the players with a plot twist. "The elf is really an evil dragon and the lich is good" doesn't encourage players to think outside the box, it just encourages them to be paranoid. "The simple trap you avoided was just to make you ignore the harder trap" doesn't encourage thinking outside the box, it just encourages paranoia.

I agree and am sorry I wasnt clear in differentiating between the small twist and the open-ended (Out-of-the-Box) solution in my first post.

My trap was to illustrate the ability of the small twist to shake things up, which I prefer to the larger plot twist that can dramatically derail a story. Not every encounter will be this way in my games as twists are best used sparingly, lest they lead to the second and third guessing of paranoia.

I never know how the party will solve a given problem, and wouldnt want too. It would take the fun of surprise out of the otherwise boringly predictable job of DMing.

[shaddy_24]

My players thought outside the box. They couldn't get information on a cult out of several cult members, so the wizard disguised himself, pretended to want to join the cult and had the guy lead him. The rest of the PCs just followed the wizard's familiar. They found the base in no time (bypassed my planned rout to learn the info too).
They only think outside the box when you don't expect them to. Or when the inside the box thought is easier

[ldcnuke]

A rather large party I am in (level 6 human cleric! woohoo!) had two "afflicted" (I guess) vampires, and we were traveling along at night for the most part. However, after getting ambushed, we realized that since most of the party was human or half-elf, traveling during the day would make much much more sense. But, the vamps realized that they couldn't travel in daylight, so one of them began searching desperately for a possible way to travel, or at least stay hidden from the sun. The other one waited for him to finish, and he came up with a plan to wrap them in shredded cloaks to keep the sun of them. That didn't work, so after about half a minute, the other vampire who had not suggested anything asked for my bag of holding. He jumped inside, told the other vampire to get in, and we closed the bag. Since vampires do not need to breathe, they didn't have to worry about it, and they got so cozy in there that they bought a chess set to keep with them. Now THAT is outside the box by my book.

[Enzario]

My personal favorite of these is when I was at the "boss" battle of a dungeon vs a vampire. The vampire had managed to kill/incapacitate half of our party. So, the party warrior fingers his rosary, and tells the wizard to cast scorching ray on his (the wizard's) turn. He readies an action to shove the rosary down the vampires throat (lots of grapple checks, he succeeded). Apparently, he and the DM had decided not to let the rest of us in on the fact that the rosary was a necklace of fireballs.

Boom.

The vampire bit him in the process, and the warrior came back as a vampire, but since we had found the vampire's coffin and destroyed it, he retained free will. The warrior left shortly thereafter to do whatever characters with +8 LAs do.

[mikeejimbo]

They just CHOSE a side?

The fools. Every adventurer worth their salt knows that the correct side in any war (not directly affecting you) is the one paying the most.


Nonsense! The best choice is to get highly destructive spells, and go on a indiscriminate killing rampage in the middle of the battle to get tons of xp!

\/ How many parties would actually have a different outlook because of that?

I prefer "Whoever's winning" as my side, actually.

Also, I was in a Mage: The Ascension game where the Storyteller presented us with "thinking out of the box" puzzles. We were stuck in a big rectangular structure, and we had to think ourselves outside of it. I was good at it, but my creativity seems to have waned.