Rogue Archetype: Unseen Seer

[AetherShift]

This probably needs a lot of work to be fair and properly worded, but I've decided to post what I've got in hopes of a more experienced helping hand. Let me know what you guys think! (Thanks to Leuku for all your great ideas!)

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140523151555/ultimum-casum/images/thumb/6/69/Data_mage_by_madspartan013-d64j22s.jpg/618px-Data_mage_by_madspartan013-d64j22s.jpg
(Image: Madspartan013)


Unseen Seer 5.0

Send Senses (Level three)
As an action you can create a sensor within 60 feet of your current location. The sensor must appear within line of sight and remains in place for as long as you concentrate. The sensor is one inch in diameter, and can’t be attacked or otherwise interacted with. While concentrating you can see and hear through the sensor as if you were in its space. You may use the sensor for a number of minutes per short rest equal to your character level. These minutes need not be consecutive. They may be broken up into segments, however each use requires at least one minute.

At level nine the range of the sensor increases to 120 feet and becomes invisible to everyone but you. As a bonus action you may move the sensor up to 30 feet in any direction so long as it remains within line of sight and within range.

At level thirteen the sensor no longer needs to remain within line of sight. The range of the sensor increases to 240 feet and may be moved up to 40 feet as a bonus action. You can also use an action to shift the sensor into the ethereal plane or back out again.

At level seventeen the range of the sensor increases to 480 feet and may be moved up to 50 feet as a bonus action. The sensor no longer requires concentration to maintain and becomes a permanent asset for the Unseen Seer.

Detection Magic (Level three)
You gain the ability to cast a small number of divination spells. You can use this ability two times per short rest. At level three you know how to cast Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic and Identify. At level nine you know how to cast Detect Thoughts, Locate Object and See Invisibility. At level thirteen you know how to cast Arcane Eye, Locate Creature and Tongues. At level seventeen you know how to cast Find the Path, Scrying and True Seeing. For the purpose of these spells, your caster level is equal to your character level. As you gain levels you may use this ability more often. At level nine you may use Detection Magic three times per short rest. At level thirteen you may use Detection Magic four times per short rest.

Reality Check (Level nine)
At level nine your perception of reality becomes more finely tuned. You gain Darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have Darkvision, its range is doubled. At level thirteen you gain Blindsight out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have Blindsight its range is doubled.

Stealth Mode (Level thirteen)
At level thirteen you can evade another’s attempts at finding you. You are treated as if under a permanent Nondetection spell. Furthermore you may now cast your Detection Magic spells without verbal components.

Temporal Tweak (Level seventeen)
At level seventeen your divinatory skills can penetrate and influence the fate of others. By expending two uses of your Detection Magic ability you may change the immediate fate of one living creature that you can see. That creature rerolls an attack roll, ability check or saving throw with your choice of advantage or disadvantage. The creature must use the new result.




Stuff I'm still working on
-Reality Check still feels weak and a little unnecessary since rogues already get a similar ability in Blind Sense
-Stealth mode seems fine if not a little fluffy. I'm considering having the permanent Nondetection upgrade to permanent Mind Blank at level 17.
-I like the utility of Temporal Tweak, however it feels like it's drifting a little far from the core idea of the Unseen Seer.
-Still considering changing Detection Magic to actual spell casting like the Arcane Trickster. It would end up being much weaker than AT in the spell casting department.
-Send Senses gets more and more complex every time I edit it. Somehow I wish there was a simpler way of presenting the ability.
Arcane Trickster gets a finely tuned, precision bassed telekinetic power. What is the Divination equivalent to Mage Hand in terms of power and utility?
The Arcane Trickster's "extra hand" vs. the Unseen Seer's "extra eyes"

[Amnoriath]

Very impressive, the abilities are well-defined and scale very nicely. The only things that I question is why the first and last spells only get 1 spell choice(6 spells vs 13-17 spells/cantrips) and that it is only a utility spy. Even an Assassin can make an almost perfect disguise, imitation, or distraction on top of more death.

[Zweisteine]

This is great, but I don't have time for a detailed review. I apologize for the poor organization of this post.
If I had time (which I do not), I'd have loved to help you fix up the wordings, but your current ones are fairly good (far from ideal, mind you, but easy to understand).

I will say this, though: There's no such thing as a move action. While we understand it, 5e doesn't interpret movement the same way as 3e and 4e did. You should state that you can use your move to move the sensor, perhaps something like this: You may use your move to move the sensor, up to X feet per round.

Actually, to fit better within 5e's intent for simplicity and enforced balance, you might want to make moving the sensor an action. While this does limit it quite a bit, it still works, and the restrictions provide balance, especially at low levels. Or you could make it a bonus action to move (you could do that by adding it as an option for Cunning Action, as the thief subclass does with fast hands).

You should also specify that summoning the sensor is an action.

And perhaps the sensor should be visible for the first few levels? An at-will invisible sensor seems like a bit much. You should at least say what creatures who can see the invisible see when they observe the sensor.

And the sensor should be destroyable. If it's indestructible, it's probably too powerful.


And where are the spells?

By the way, this subclass is awesome.

[Leuku]

This is great, but I don't have time for a detailed review. I apologize for the poor organization of this post.
If I had time (which I do not), I'd have loved to help you fix up the wordings, but your current ones are fairly good (far from ideal, mind you, but easy to understand).

Zwei, I think you spent too much time on the Uncommon Human xD


I will say this, though: There's no such thing as a move action. While we understand it, 5e doesn't interpret movement the same way as 3e and 4e did. You should state that you can use your move to move the sensor, perhaps something like this: You may use your move to move the sensor, up to X feet per round.

I might word it like: "On your turn, before you make any movement, you can have your sensor move instead up to X feet."


Actually, to fit better within 5e's intent for simplicity and enforced balance, you might want to make moving the sensor an action. While this does limit it quite a bit, it still works, and the restrictions provide balance, especially at low levels. Or you could make it a bonus action to move (you could do that by adding it as an option for Cunning Action, as the thief subclass does with fast hands).

Or yeah, you can make it a bonus action to move your sensor up to X feet.


And perhaps the sensor should be visible for the first few levels? An at-will invisible sensor seems like a bit much. You should at least say what creatures who can see the invisible see when they observe the sensor.

Excellent point. It's already so small; should be hard to see. Maybe give it a Dexterity (Stealth) value equal to yours.


And the sensor should be destroyable. If it's indestructible, it's probably too powerful.

AC 5, 5 HP at 3rd level? AC 10, 10 HP at 9th. AC 15, 15 HP at 13th. AC 20, 20 HP at 17th.

Well done, Ralcos, well done. Excellent subclass.

[AetherShift]

Thanks a lot for the encouraging words! I'm glad you all think this sub-class has potential.
Here is a link to the original thread where most of my ideas can be found: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386732-Unseen-Seer-Ideas-for-an-Archetype


Very impressive, the abilities are well-defined and scale very nicely. The only things that I question is why the first and last spells only get 1 spell choice(6 spells vs 13-17 spells/cantrips) and that it is only a utility spy. Even an Assassin can make an almost perfect disguise, imitation, or distraction on top of more death.


And where are the spells?

Originally I had the idea to give the Unseen Seer spellcasting exactly like the Arcane Trickster except for the following changes:
- Limit spell selection to spells from the Divination school
- Allow spells to be chosen from all divination spells, not just from the wizard list.
That second bit is necessary for two reasons. The first is because there are only 11 divination spells (level 0-4) on the wizard list. The second is because in the original 3.x prestige class, the Unseen Seer is capable of learning divination spells from any spell list.



You should also specify that summoning the sensor is an action.

And perhaps the sensor should be visible for the first few levels? An at-will invisible sensor seems like a bit much. You should at least say what creatures who can see the invisible see when they observe the sensor.

And the sensor should be destroyable. If it's indestructible, it's probably too powerful.

Flavorfully, the sensor (as I'm envisioning it) doesn't really exist in the conventional sense. (although summoning it as an action seems like a good thing to include) The dimensions I provided were simply to provide rules for moving the sensor through small areas. If anything, the sensor would be something to dispel rather than attack.

From your suggestions, it seems these are the problem areas:
- The details of the Send Senses sensor
- Could use more spell casting

Would anyone care to comment on the power level of Reality Check, Stealth Mode and Expansive Vision? If I switch to actual spell casting, Expansive Vision will be nerfed slightly, although perhaps casting spells through the sensor is enough of a capstone ability.

Thanks again for all your help. Keep the ideas coming!

[Leuku]

Would anyone care to comment on the power level of Reality Check, Stealth Mode and Expansive Vision? If I switch to actual spell casting, Expansive Vision will be nerfed slightly, although perhaps casting spells through the sensor is enough of a capstone ability.

Thanks again for all your help. Keep the ideas coming!

If we haven't said anything about those features, that means we see no problems with them.

Try adding more spellcasting without changing the features, then we'll balance it again.

[Amnoriath]

Thanks a lot for the encouraging words! I'm glad you all think this sub-class has potential.
Here is a link to the original thread where most of my ideas can be found: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386732-Unseen-Seer-Ideas-for-an-Archetype





Originally I had the idea to give the Unseen Seer spellcasting exactly like the Arcane Trickster except for the following changes:
- Limit spell selection to spells from the Divination school
- Allow spells to be chosen from all divination spells, not just from the wizard list.
That second bit is necessary for two reasons. The first is because there are only 11 divination spells (level 0-4) on the wizard list. The second is because in the original 3.x prestige class, the Unseen Seer is capable of learning divination spells from any spell list.




Flavorfully, the sensor (as I'm envisioning it) doesn't really exist in the conventional sense. (although summoning it as an action seems like a good thing to include) The dimensions I provided were simply to provide rules for moving the sensor through small areas. If anything, the sensor would be something to dispel rather than attack.

From your suggestions, it seems these are the problem areas:
- The details of the Send Senses sensor
- Could use more spell casting

Would anyone care to comment on the power level of Reality Check, Stealth Mode and Expansive Vision? If I switch to actual spell casting, Expansive Vision will be nerfed slightly, although perhaps casting spells through the sensor is enough of a capstone ability.

Thanks again for all your help. Keep the ideas coming!

1. Yes, I saw the thread and I don't think that it should reflect a normal spell caster. This way you actually are far more reliable in what you do. I just simply question when you give this sort of pact magic system that why isn't there a choice at the first archetype and the last spell. It just doesn't seem to be consistent and hems them a little bit more than other choices. If you want to emulate that then maybe a sort of magical secrets ability would be appropriate to allow a little customization in the specific subclass.
2. Well, what Reality Check amounts to is about 2 invocations of the Warlock(Devil's Sight, and Witch's sight) in which these come later. The only thing you need to clarify is the range for Blindsight, especially since the Rogue kind of gets this a little later. Otherwise it isn't as much of an issue as you think as those skillful enough and with good natural hiding can still escape you.
3. Expansive Vision actually amounts to part of a Trickery Domain Channel Divinity power at will with Divination. If anything I would give this ability to remove disadvantage on long range for attacks and ignore half as well three quarters cover at least.
4. It depends what you want to do with it. If you want to just keep it as is simply making it illusory with the statistics given into ethereal(later) solves the issue of low level untouchability while makes it hard to define at higher levels as well as makes it more mobile but not impossible to get rid of. This also gives this a little more of an edge over other sensors as this is a key feature.

[Leuku]

Perhaps grant the Message cantrip?

Not only can you spy, but you can relay messages as well.

[AetherShift]

I've added a range to the blindsight, and greatly boosted the Detection Magic ability. (I may have boosted it to much)


Detection Magic (Level three)
You gain the ability to cast a small number of divination spells. You can use this ability two times per short rest. At level three you know how to cast Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic and Identify. At level nine you know how to cast Detect Thoughts, Locate Object and See Invisibility. At level thirteen you know how to cast Arcane Eye, Locate Creature and Tongues. At level seventeen you know how to cast Find the Path, Scrying and True Seeing. For the purpose of these spells, your caster level is equal to your character level. As you gain levels you may use this ability more often. At level nine you may use Detection Magic three times per short rest. This increases to four times at level thirteen and again to five times at level seventeen.


I could go in another direction by allowing a choice of 3 first level spells at third level, 3 second level spells at ninth level spells and so on, however there are so few divination spells to actually choose from. (there are only two 3rd level divination spells and only three 4th level divination spells) With the method I'm using I was able to bunch together some more useful spells (at level 13 you know one 3rd level spell and two 4th level spells, at level 17 you know a 5th level spell and two 6th level spells)

Still working on the best specs for the Send Senses Sensor. I like the idea of it going ethereal!

[Amnoriath]

No, you got it just about right here. Maybe not go 5 times and you already have True Seeing via Truesight. Legend Lore would probably work. As for the other things I wouldn't be too afraid of putting in a sort of Luck or Portent type ability in the later levels.

[Zweisteine]

Zwei, I think you spent too much time on the Uncommon Human xD
<.< >.>
Maaayyybbbeee...

Once again, I don't have much time, so I'll be extra brief and disorganized.

Reality Check:
Doesn't seem bad, seems fairly balanced. I do feel, however, that you might have too many abilities all popping up at level 17. Maybe move Truesight up a bit?
Actually, constant truesight might be a bit too strong, even at that level. It's one of those things that can completely ruin a DM's plan from the outset.

Stealth mode I'm unsure about, because I don't have my books on hand to check the spell.

I'm also unsure about expansive vision, but don't have time to write about it.

[Leuku]

Reality Check:
Doesn't seem bad, seems fairly balanced. I do feel, however, that you might have too many abilities all popping up at level 17. Maybe move Truesight up a bit?
Actually, constant truesight might be a bit too strong, even at that level. It's one of those things that can completely ruin a DM's plan from the outset/

Actually, yeah, constant True Sight may be too much. Perhaps 3/day, like a legendary monster might have?

[AetherShift]

Actually, yeah, constant True Sight may be too much. Perhaps 3/day, like a legendary monster might have?

I've made the following changes:

I've cut several advancements that happened at level seventeen
- Detection Magic now caps at 4 times per short rest at level 13 rather than 5 times at Level 17.
- Reality Check now grants Darkvision at level 9 and Blindsight at level 13 as before, but no longer grants Truesight at level 17.

Now the only things that happen at level 17 are Expansive Vision along with the last updates for Send Senses and Detection Magic.

I'm still considering the following changes (some would make the class stronger, others weaker)

-Allowing the sensor to become ethereal (probably at level thirteen to coincide with Stealth Mode)
-Allowing the sensor to be interacted with (attacking, dispelling, etc.)
-Dropping Expansive Vision in favor of some alternative capstone ability (would love suggestions)

For now I'm satisfied with Stealth Mode, as it fulfills two of the main features of the original Unseen Seer prestige class (Permanent Nondetection and silent spellcasting)

[Amnoriath]

I
-Allowing the sensor to become ethereal (probably at level thirteen to coincide with Stealth Mode)
-Allowing the sensor to be interacted with (attacking, dispelling, etc.)
-Dropping Expansive Vision in favor of some alternative capstone ability (would love suggestions)

For now I'm satisfied with Stealth Mode, as it fulfills two of the main features of the original Unseen Seer prestige class (Permanent Nondetection and silent spellcasting)
1. Expansive Vision in a way is already weaved in the Send Senses ability. Many of the spells modify your senses as is, so therefore Send Senses already works there. The only spells to which this is an exception is Arcane Eye Locate Creature, Find the Path, and Scrying. So all you really need to say is that your modified senses is no longer limited by the spell's range.
2. As for another capstone you could possibly make a limited version of Foresight against 1 creature you can see until the beginning of your next turn rechargeable after a short rest. I would also weave in the ignoring cover and disadvantage at long ranges in another.

[AetherShift]

Here are three ideas for a level 17 ability. Let me know what you think.
I hope I've at least written these so my ideas are coming across. Again, wording suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Temporal Tweak (Level seventeen)
At level seventeen your divinatory skills penetrate the flow of time itself. By expending two uses of your Detection Magic ability you may change the immediate fate of one living creature. That creature rerolls an attack roll, ability check or saving throw with your choice of advantage or disadvantage. The creature must use the new result.

Temporal Awareness (Level seventeen)
At level seventeen your awareness extends into the near future. You have advantage on all saving throws and other creatures have disadvantage on attack rolls against you.

Glimpse Potential (Level seventeen)
At level seventeen you are able see into the immediate future. Once per long rest you may declare your next turn to be hypothetical. You act as normal for that turn. At the end of that turn, you may decide to alter your path or retain it. If you retain your path, the turn ends as normal. If you alter your path, all actions done during that turn become undone and you return to the space you first occupied at the beginning of that round. You then proceed to take your new turn, choosing a different course of action or attempting the same action again.

[Amnoriath]

Here are three ideas for a level 17 ability. Let me know what you think.
I hope I've at least written these so my ideas are coming across. Again, wording suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Temporal Tweak (Level seventeen)
At level seventeen your divinatory skills penetrate the flow of time itself. By expending two uses of your Detection Magic ability you may change the immediate fate of one living creature. That creature rerolls an attack roll, ability check or saving throw with your choice of advantage or disadvantage. The creature must use the new result.

Temporal Awareness (Level seventeen)
At level seventeen your awareness extends into the near future. You have advantage on all saving throws and other creatures have disadvantage on attack rolls against you.

Glimpse Potential (Level seventeen)
At level seventeen you are able see into the immediate future. Once per long rest you may declare your next turn to be hypothetical. You act as normal for that turn. At the end of that turn, you may decide to alter your path or retain it. If you retain your path, the turn ends as normal. If you alter your path, all actions done during that turn become undone and you return to the space you first occupied at the beginning of that round. You then proceed to take your new turn, choosing a different course of action or attempting the same action again.

I would go with either the 1st or 3rd one. The second is either too powerful as is because it is passive or becomes explicitly weaker than Foresight. Yes the spell itself is ridiculously overpowered but this is still a smaller stick later on if you change it to be 1/day. It also isn't all that interesting. I personally like the third it gives a sense of insight and metagaming in which no other thing has. It also has the most flavor. The first one though of course has more mechanical use giving some option both in and out battle outside of the Rogue as well as the small list. So the first rounds out the class a little better.

[AetherShift]

Awesome. The third one is also my favorite. How would you word that ability so it actually works the way I want it to? In this context, is there a difference between the terms round and turn?

for example:

"If you alter your path, all actions done during that turn become undone and you return to the space you first occupied at the beginning of that round."

I have a feeling that only half of that statement actually means what I want it to mean.

In general I want the player to be able to do the following:

"Okay, my next [turn/round] is hypothetical. Let me see what happens if I do x,y and z."

-does something stupid or brilliant-

"Wow, that would have sucked. Let me try something different instead." or "Hey, I knew that would work."

Thoughts?

[Amnoriath]

Awesome. The third one is also my favorite. How would you word that ability so it actually works the way I want it to? In this context, is there a difference between the terms round and turn?

for example:

"If you alter your path, all actions done during that turn become undone and you return to the space you first occupied at the beginning of that round."

I have a feeling that only half of that statement actually means what I want it to mean.

In general I want the player to be able to do the following:

"Okay, my next [turn/round] is hypothetical. Let me see what happens if I do x,y and z."

-does something stupid or brilliant-

"Wow, that would have sucked. Let me try something different instead." or "Hey, I knew that would work."

Thoughts?
1. Well actually I meant to say the 1st one rounds the class out better, sorry:smallfrown:. While the other is quite cool it is one of those things either it really helps or it doesn't.
2. Yes there is a difference. The round is the sum of all the turns. Your turn is your set of actions only for the round. It is easier just to say your turn because then everyone doesn't have to participate. In order to maximize its effectiveness I would say allow them to theorize on two options and choose accordingly. This way they are more likely to choose a better turn as it would be 1/day.

[Amechra]

Maybe have them perform 2 actions, and then pick which one actually happens?

Like, I dunno, choosing to Attack one guy, and then checking to see if they'd get a better result attacking the other guy.

[AetherShift]

Permanent Mind Blank at level 17?
It would kind of obsolete level 13 a bit though. Still, I can't imagine an Unseen Seer who wouldn't love to have that kind of defenses.

For reference:

"Immunity to psychic damage, any effect that would sense its emotions or read its thoughts, divination spells, and the charmed condition. The spell even foils wish spells and spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target’s mind or to gain information about the target."