3.5 Incantatrix questions

[herrhauptmann]

I'm currently playing in a level 12 gestalt game where every PC is a Gish of some sort. (Yeah, I've made several threads based on this game before) My character is a Wizard/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/Incantatar3//Fighter/Warblade. I haven't really decided what classes to take next level, though incantatatar//warblade would not be a bad idea.
Further we get feats at the pathfinder progression so I'll get another feat next level (or more depending on class choice). There are no enhancement bonuses; so Bite of the Were- is a much less useful spell line. There's a few other houserules regarding semi-Gish PrC like the green-steel mage or spellsword which won't really be applicable to this discussion.

My metamagic feats: Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Invisible Spell, Eschew Materials.
Most of my spells are spells for gishes, where I buff myself rather than debuff, save or lose/die, or battlefield control. But my allies use a wider variety of spells than I do. We've got an unarmed swordsage//sorc/JPM, a swiftblade/duelist, two psionics (unnecessary to this discussion) and a druid. Also a bunch of friendly NPCs of varying power levels and combat/casting styles.


As this is a game with a lot of casters, my Cooperative Metamagic could see a bit more use than it would in a game with a normal spread of character types. But at the end of 2 game days, I haven't done much with it yet.

I've tried checking for incantatrix threads and guidebooks.
Optimizing Incantatrix. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4679.0
Endarires handbook. http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1774761
Malachei's handbook. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?223438-3-5-Incantatrix-Handbook-%28WIP%29 Never finished.
And most of the threads I checked never gave a list of spells beyond "Those to persist/extend."

Metamagic handbook. http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=972.0 I don't know how complete this is, a shame I didn't make this thread before dndtools went down.

My question, does anyone have advice for maximizing Cooperative Metamagic? I've already got a +34 to spellcraft, and one or two open feats next level.
At first glance Twin (+4) and Chain (+3) spell would probably be my best choices for the party. If I Twin a buff like Haste, an enemy would have to succeed on two dispel checks to get rid of it, ditto for a spell like Charm or Dominate. Chain Dominate of course could turn an entire group of enemies into minions for days at a time.
Repeat Spell (+3) may also be a good choice, but I'm having trouble seeing how having my spell occur again a round later is better than having it happen twice simultaneously. Unless it's an issue of math and I'd rather risk buffing a spell to a 10th rather than 11th level spell.

[Chronos]

The first place to look for any metamagic-abuse abilities is Persist. Whenever any of your allies casts a buff, persist it for them.

[herrhauptmann]

The first place to look for any metamagic-abuse abilities is Persist. Whenever any of your allies casts a buff, persist it for them.

I have Persist. I do exactly that, and as it's a buff I can do the same with Metamagic effect a round later. I'm well aware of the usefulness of Persist Spell.

Debuffs, BFC, and damage spells seem like they'd be more reliant on Cooperative and other metamagics. Black tentacles and Obscuring mist are good BFC spells, but there's no point to Persisting if we're moving on from the fight location, especially if we're not expecting pursuit.

[aleucard]

You've already got Persist down, so maybe something for working with the action economy like Quicken or one of the multiple ways to make your spell repeat? You may be able to make some interesting use with blasting if you get the right metamagic (Energy Admixture comes to mind, as does the classic Empower/Maximize), and you're somewhat low on ranged ability anyway. What sort of things do you wish you could do but can't without the right metamagic? Few of them are too pidgeonholed for creative use, and you not only already have the bases covered but have feats to burn for fun things.

[herrhauptmann]

You've already got Persist down, so maybe something for working with the action economy like Quicken or one of the multiple ways to make your spell repeat?
Yup, my thought process. Best would be to do it all myself, but I think supporting my allies is a better choice overall. Also the DM has said he'll tailor enemy power to match our tactics once we make a name for ourselves; and he'll use our level of cheese. Solo-ing encounters just means the enemies will be tougher in the future.


What sort of things do you wish you could do but can't without the right metamagic?
Destroy my enemies with a gesture. Evade all scry and die. Have enough defensive buffs and forethought to use them that I can't get shut down/out by a single spell. (Forgetting to prepare Fly is one example) Kick butt in melee combat without being a one trick pony. I do have shocktrooper and leap attack, so I have to guess where the fine line will be between victory and one-shotting.



You may be able to make some interesting use with blasting if you get the right metamagic (Energy Admixture comes to mind, as does the classic Empower/Maximize), and you're somewhat low on ranged ability anyway. Few of them are too pidgeonholed for creative use, and you not only already have the bases covered but have feats to burn for fun things.
Just had a thought, we've got a Jade Phoenix mage with a lot of thematic fire spells/abilities.
Let's say he uses a fireball and I boost it with Fiery Spell (+1 sandstorm). His 9d6 fireball will go to 9d6+9.
What about if I also pick up energy substitution and admixture (+4)? Will his fiery fireball go from 9d6+9 fire to 9d6+9fire and 9d6+9 whatever my energy substitution is? Fireball is sort of weak, but 18d6+18 is respectable damage, and at an effective 8th level spell, the spellcraft check will be doable. Granted, at +5 spell level, it's probably be better to just use the +3 Maximize.
Admixture also says I can use the original spells element for double damage. Fireball admixtured with fire for another Xd6.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Scry 'n die is overrated. Any mage, Incantatrix or no, can put up Anticipate Teleportation (or Greater if you have lots of spell slots remaining). If your DM has them 'port outside of the field, then he's metagaming for not one but two reasons:

(1) They shouldn't know you had that spell up, at least the first time.
(2) Scry has a relatively tiny area it can look at, which is well inside the area of AT and GAT. And they really shouldn't be able to glean the general area you're in unless you hang out in very distinctive areas.

Honestly, Commune 'n Die is much more reliable, and harder to protect against, but that's why you pick up Mindsight and stealth around all day in a tiny polymorphed form so you get the jump on them.

Also, Detect Scrying is core and lasts 24 hours. You should be buffing your CL to the stratosphere anyway (check out Suffer the Flesh from MoE for instance) to avoid the unfortunate consequences of dispellers.

As far as what to do with Cooperative Metamagic... really, the best use is to persist things like you've been doing. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, and Vigorous Circle all have a fixed range and a non-instantaneous duration, for instance. Your Druid will love you if he can persist Bite of the Werebear on him and his animal companion buddy. Best case is you have an Archivist in the party and can go nuts.

In two levels you could create a Simulacrum of yourself and have it use cooperative magic on you to persist more buffs on yourself. Good times.

As far as ending things with a wave of your hand... what's the fun in that? You're a gish. Go tear them to pieces with your polymorphed bare hands and utterly ridiculous strength score, with touch attacks, while invisible and flying and blinking and covered in acid!