On the fertility of half-elves

[asorel]

Has there been any mention, explicit or otherwise, on the ability for half-elves (and half-orcs, for that matter) to reproduce? If an official stance has been taken, has it been consistent throughout editions? I ask because I had been considering fluffing up my half-elf as having a bit more Elf than Human blood in him, resultant of the repeated exposure the two races would have in an urbanized environment, as a way of explaining his advanced height and higher Dexterity score.

[Grinner]

They're implicitly quite capable of it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongrelfolk)

Personally, I think it might be kinda cool if Tolkienesque fantasy took a page from hard sci-fi and made the half-breeds mostly sterile. That's your call, though.

[Ravens_cry]

They're implicitly quite capable of it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongrelfolk)

Personally, I think it might be kinda cool if Tolkienesque fantasy took a page from hard sci-fi and made the half-breeds mostly sterile. That's your call, though.
Or not breed at all, except with magical assistance. But, yes, they can breed. There is even mention, if I recall, of 2nd generation half elves been more likely to have human eye colours, while 1st generation are exclusively green.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Forgottten Realms has a kingdom whose nobility are almost all half-drow, several generations worth of 'em.

[Hiro Protagonest]

In 4e, half-elves explicitly have occasional "pure" communities, so unless they kidnap all their residents, yes. I see no reason to think any different for other hybrids or editions given that there really isn't any evidence to the contrary (real world animal hybrids don't count unless there was absolutely zero evidence one way or the other).

[Ravens_cry]

In 4e, half-elves explicitly have occasional "pure" communities, so unless they kidnap all their residents, yes. I see no reason to think any different for other hybrids or editions given that there really isn't any evidence to the contrary (real world animal hybrids don't count unless there was absolutely zero evidence one way or the other).

Plus, some hybrids are fertile, some more than others.

[Solaris]

They're implicitly quite capable of it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongrelfolk)

Personally, I think it might be kinda cool if Tolkienesque fantasy took a page from hard sci-fi and made the half-breeds mostly sterile. That's your call, though.

Not all cross-breeds are sterile. I've crossed blue wag platyfish with green wild-type swordtails and the resultant hybrids are quite fertile.

[SiuiS]

Has there been any mention, explicit or otherwise, on the ability for half-elves (and half-orcs, for that matter) to reproduce? If an official stance has been taken, has it been consistent throughout editions? I ask because I had been considering fluffing up my half-elf as having a bit more Elf than Human blood in him, resultant of the repeated exposure the two races would have in an urbanized environment, as a way of explaining his advanced height and higher Dexterity score.

Half elves can explicitly breed. Elven taint is specific in that a elf blood, once mixed with human, can never again be pure elf, the reason given below. Half elves are at least "50% elf", and if the amount of their human heritage ever exceeds 50% they will be a human, not a half elf.

This means that so long as several generations of half elves roughly a hundred years or more ago existed, human villages will occasionally spawn half elves from human unions though. That's cool.


They're implicitly quite capable of it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongrelfolk)

Personally, I think it might be kinda cool if Tolkienesque fantasy took a page from hard sci-fi and made the half-breeds mostly sterile. That's your call, though.

Half elves are not a hybrid in the genetic sense. They are magically tainted humans, specifically. It's the elf's faerie heritage that allows them to breed with humans. Half-elf should be a template but has instead been carried over as a legacy race.

[Roxxy]

It depends on how different you consider elves and humans to be from each other. Haven't seen official word, and it probably differs by setting, anyway.

In my worlds half elves are fertile, but my races do not differ much in lifespan or fertility rates at all, and I consider elves, dwarves, orcs, and standard humans (which I call magni) to all be members of the Human species. It's sort of like how dogs are all members of the same species, despite the massive variety of different breeds. Since an elf and a magni are of the same species, they have no difficulties interbreeding, and the offspring have normal fertility. In fact, my Scandinavia has almost as many elf/magni/dwarf mixed race individuals as it does elves, magni, and dwarves.

[Bob of Mage]

Or not breed at all, except with magical assistance. But, yes, they can breed. There is even mention, if I recall, of 2nd generation half elves been more likely to have human eye colours, while 1st generation are exclusively green.

For all we know the first Half-Elf came from the use of magic. Say an elf and a human loved each other very much and wanted to have childern. Normally this wouldn't work, but one of them was a powerful spellcaster. Said mage uses an epic level spell to rewrite the laws of nature and not only make half-elves happen, but also a true breeding race. Weirder things have happened. This is also why baseing things off how they work in our world can quickly fall apart.

Anyone else have a better theroy of where half-elves come from?

[Roxxy]

Half elves can explicitly breed. Elven taint is specific in that a elf blood, once mixed with human, can never again be pure elf, the reason given below. Half elves are at least "50% elf", and if the amount of their human heritage ever exceeds 50% they will be a human, not a half elf.

This means that so long as several generations of half elves roughly a hundred years or more ago existed, human villages will occasionally spawn half elves from human unions though. That's cool.

Half elves are not a hybrid in the genetic sense. They are magically tainted humans, specifically. It's the elf's faerie heritage that allows them to breed with humans. Half-elf should be a template but has instead been carried over as a legacy race.I would think that would be rather dependent on the campaign setting, though. For example, Golarion elves aren't faerie related at all. Granted, I don't like Golarion elves.

[asorel]

Half elves can explicitly breed. Elven taint is specific in that a elf blood, once mixed with human, can never again be pure elf, the reason given below. Half elves are at least "50% elf", and if the amount of their human heritage ever exceeds 50% they will be a human, not a half elf.

This means that so long as several generations of half elves roughly a hundred years or more ago existed, human villages will occasionally spawn half elves from human unions though. That's cool.



Half elves are not a hybrid in the genetic sense. They are magically tainted humans, specifically. It's the elf's faerie heritage that allows them to breed with humans. Half-elf should be a template but has instead been carried over as a legacy race.

Do you have a source for this? I'm not questioning the data, but I am curious as to when and where this was stated.

[Red Fel]

In Eberron (one of the 3.5 settings), Half-Elves may have once been a hybrid, but are now considered a legitimate and independent true-breeding race. In fact, two Dragonmarked Houses (Lyrandar and Medani) boast exclusively Half-Elven membership. Membership in a Dragonmarked House (or at least carrying a Dragonmark lineage) requires a true-bred race; for example, a Half-Elf child of a Dragonmarked Human could not receive his parent's Dragonmark.

It's kind of impossible for Half-Elves to receive the Dragonmark of a Half-Elf parent without being able to breed. Similarly, it's impossible for the child of a Half-Elf parent to receive his parent's Dragonmark if he is anything other than a Half-Elf.

[LibraryOgre]

Do you have a source for this? I'm not questioning the data, but I am curious as to when and where this was stated.

In AD&D, this was explicitly the case... 50% or more was half-elf, less than 50% is human.

Forgotten Realms also has at least 2 communities that are heavily half-elven... Dambrath is ruled by half-drow, and Deepingdale is 20% half-elf, with many second and third generation.

[Ravens_cry]

For all we know the first Half-Elf came from the use of magic. Say an elf and a human loved each other very much and wanted to have childern. Normally this wouldn't work, but one of them was a powerful spellcaster. Said mage uses an epic level spell to rewrite the laws of nature and not only make half-elves happen, but also a true breeding race. Weirder things have happened. This is also why baseing things off how they work in our world can quickly fall apart.

Anyone else have a better theroy of where half-elves come from?
Ew, that means all half elves are the result of some MASSIVE incest. Damn, no wonder they suck. They are in-bred worse than some dog breeds!
Idea: Half elves are separate serf race who serve true elves, who in turn serve an upper oligarchy of true immortals called the Eldest. They are called half elves because they kind of look like humans, more than regular elves anyway, who are all orange space lemurs like Mialee, They aren't actually related to humans at all.
Actual half-elves are one off magical creations as described above, and are practically one per generation at most, as fashion and whims dictate.

[Psyren]

Races of Destiny:


A few half-elves live in small communities composed entirely of their fellow half-elves. Such communities often spring from racially segregated neighborhoods in teeming metropolises or large family settlements that grow into villages. When two half-elves breed, the progeny is another half-elf, so these communities can sustain themselves indefinitely.

[Red Fel]

Damn, no wonder they suck.

An 8th-level Commoner who can create a three-hour tornado with a 720' radius would like a word with you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17763931&postcount=3).

[Ravens_cry]

Races of Destiny:
A few half-elves live in small communities composed entirely of their fellow half-elves. Such communities often spring from racially segregated neighborhoods in teeming metropolises or large family settlements that grow into villages. When two half-elves breed, the progeny is another half-elf, so these communities can sustain themselves indefinitely.

Bah, think you're so fancy with your book knowledge and facts and such.
Bah, I say, and, again, bah!:smallyuk: (:smallwink:)

[Stellar_Magic]

Bah, think you're so fancy with your book knowledge and facts and such.
Bah, I say, and, again, bah!:smallyuk: (:smallwink:)

Generally, though it hasn't actually come up, but generally i'd rule that two half-elves would have a 50% chance of producing a Half-elf, a 25% chance of producing a (mechanically) human, and a 25% chance of producing a (mechanically) elf. Actual appearance and mechanical stats may not match up, as appearance and physical characteristics are not the same as race modifiers.

[Solaris]

Similarly, it's impossible for the child of a Half-Elf parent to receive his parent's Dragonmark if he is anything other than a Half-Elf.

Where's it say that? I recall reading something quite different.

[Ravens_cry]

An 8th-level Commoner who can create a three-hour tornado with a 720' radius would like a word with you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17763931&postcount=3).
That's hardly going to be in all campaigns, and I was going by their racial features.

[Mando Knight]

Tolkien had the offspring of Men and Elves fully fertile: the kings of Númenor (and through them, the kings of Gondor and Arnor) were descendants of half-elves. Their first king, Elros Tar-Minyatur, was born of Eärendil and Elwing, themselves half-elven (Elwing was also 2nd generation half-elf, her father being the half-elf Dior... though her mother was a full-blooded Elf). His brother was Elrond, most famous as the Lord of Rivendell in the Third Age. And yes, that means that Aragorn and Arwen were first cousins, too-many-goddamn-times removed (from a genetics point of view, the number of generations between Elros and Aragorn means that Aragorn and Arwen would be no less related than you* or I, though the blood of the kings of Númenor did give him vitality unlike anyone living... the One Ring is destroyed in his late eighties, and reigned for another 122 years, dying at age 210).

*Assuming you are not actually a close relative of mine, that is.

[Ravens_cry]

Generally, though it hasn't actually come up, but generally i'd rule that two half-elves would have a 50% chance of producing a Half-elf, a 25% chance of producing a (mechanically) human, and a 25% chance of producing a (mechanically) elf. Actual appearance and mechanical stats may not match up, as appearance and physical characteristics are not the same as race modifiers.
Interesting indeed, but I do like my three castes idea as described above.

[SiuiS]

I always found the "use real world genetics for your mystical mutations that exist specifically because they defy known science" route to be a bit gauche myself. Punnet squares of elf childrens is akin to elf fertility like 'you roll dice and tabulate numbers against set difficulties to see if you beat enough benchmarks to declare a win' is to adventuring in D&D. Maybe accurate, sometimes, but boring as sin and not true to any of the source material.


I would think that would be rather dependent on the campaign setting, though. For example, Golarion elves aren't faerie related at all. Granted, I don't like Golarion elves.

Golarion isn't standard D&D, though. It's not even a different campaign setting, it's on the same level of difference as the world of warcraft d20 game is. Golarion elves are also six feet tall, four feet of which is their ears. Different species from D&D elf, really.


Do you have a source for this? I'm not questioning the data, but I am curious as to when and where this was stated.

2e, touched on somewhat obliquely in a 3.0 book somewhere, never overwritten. As this is general RPG, and it's the only source that ever bothered to get exhaustive...

It's also funny because every later, definitive source does not actually contradict this at all; two half elves (each 50/50) would of course produce another half elf — they produce children who are also 50/50. Really, the only weird thing is the "cannot ever produce an elf" part, which I like to hold in reserve as a thing that goes away for children of momentous occasions and world shaking prophecies. The human child who turns out to have been a half elf all along, or the half elf child who is really an elf (perhaps even a lost species!) is cool.


In Eberron (one of the 3.5 settings), Half-Elves may have once been a hybrid, but are now considered a legitimate and independent true-breeding race. In fact, two Dragonmarked Houses (Lyrandar and Medani) boast exclusively Half-Elven membership. Membership in a Dragonmarked House (or at least carrying a Dragonmark lineage) requires a true-bred race; for example, a Half-Elf child of a Dragonmarked Human could not receive his parent's Dragonmark.

It's kind of impossible for Half-Elves to receive the Dragonmark of a Half-Elf parent without being able to breed. Similarly, it's impossible for the child of a Half-Elf parent to receive his parent's Dragonmark if he is anything other than a Half-Elf.

That stands to reason. If they had a human child it wouldn't qualify for the half elf only mark.


Tolkien had the offspring of Men and Elves fully fertile: the kings of Númenor (and through them, the kings of Gondor and Arnor) were descendants of half-elves. Their first king, Elros Tar-Minyatur, was born of Eärendil and Elwing, themselves half-elven (Elwing was also 2nd generation half-elf, her father being the half-elf Dior... though her mother was a full-blooded Elf). His brother was Elrond, most famous as the Lord of Rivendell in the Third Age. And yes, that means that Aragorn and Arwen were first cousins, too-many-goddamn-times removed (from a genetics point of view, the number of generations between Elros and Aragorn means that Aragorn and Arwen would be no less related than you* or I, though the blood of the kings of Númenor did give him vitality unlike anyone living... the One Ring is destroyed in his late eighties, and reigned for another 122 years, dying at age 210).

*Assuming you are not actually a close relative of mine, that is.

Tolkien's half elves weren't half elves, they were allowed to choose to be man or elf. Elrond chose elfin immortality and his brother chose human mortality, for example - and elrond is quite literally a defining part of the template of elven archetypal form.

[hamishspence]

Shining South does touch on "how much drow blood is needed to qualify as a half-drow" though.

1/32 drow blood is about the minimum required to be "Crinti" (half-drow in law). One of the city rulers is called a "half-drow aristocrat 13" and has that level of drow blood - and looks a lot more like a human than a drow - though she still benefits from the half-drow abilities.

[Red Fel]

Where's it say that? I recall reading something quite different.

I believe it's implied by the sidebar here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20051024a) on reincarnation.
A character who possesses a dragonmark will keep his dragonmark even in his new form. However, he cannot pass the dragonmark to his descendants. So reincarnation makes it possible to find an orc with the Mark of Storm, but this will not produce an entire dynasty of dragonmarked orcs.

Here's what I take from that: A member of a Dragonmarked race who is Reincarnated into a new race will retain his Dragonmark, if any. However, he cannot pass it on to heirs of the new race.
This tells me that members of a race that does not ordinarily get the Dragonmark cannot acquire it by birth from a parent who possesses it. For example, the Half-Orc child of a member of House Vadalis (a Human-only House) cannot acquire the Mark of Handling from his Human ancestry.

It's possible I missed a section, but that's what I recall.

[Anonymouswizard]

In my worlds half elves are fertile, but my races do not differ much in lifespan or fertility rates at all, and I consider elves, dwarves, orcs, and standard humans (which I call magni) to all be members of the Human species. It's sort of like how dogs are all members of the same species, despite the massive variety of different breeds. Since an elf and a magni are of the same species, they have no difficulties interbreeding, and the offspring have normal fertility. In fact, my Scandinavia has almost as many elf/magni/dwarf mixed race individuals as it does elves, magni, and dwarves.

That gives me some worldbuiling ideas where they are all breeds of human, and breeding between races has a 25% chance of being race A, 25% chance of being race B, and 50% of being a "mutt" human (actual chances vary based upon purity), with the continent spanning empire having races appear at "random" due to heritage occasionally creating "pure breeds" (although normally with slightly different looks) out of chance. In other regions marriage is more tightly controlled so that families generally maintain their traditional race, although occasional intermarriage is used to stop them from dying out.

[Roxxy]

Golarion isn't standard D&D, though. It's not even a different campaign setting, it's on the same level of difference as the world of warcraft d20 game is. Golarion elves are also six feet tall, four feet of which is their ears. Different species from D&D elf, really.Wait, what? It's the default Pathfinder setting, and PF is a relatively sizeable portion of the D&D community.


2e, touched on somewhat obliquely in a 3.0 book somewhere, never overwritten. As this is general RPG, and it's the only source that ever bothered to get exhaustive...2e's outlook on races is not necessarily something the third generation of D&D players has read or uses, however. I wouldn't call anything it says a default assumption of the game.

[Sith_Happens]

Generally, though it hasn't actually come up, but generally i'd rule that two half-elves would have a 50% chance of producing a Half-elf, a 25% chance of producing a (mechanically) human, and a 25% chance of producing a (mechanically) elf. Actual appearance and mechanical stats may not match up, as appearance and physical characteristics are not the same as race modifiers.

That only works if there's a single "Elf vs. Human" gene. If it's more of an "X% of the genome" difference, which it most certainly is, then you're only going to see a very slight deviation per generation in the elfness/humanness ratio.

As for comparing editions and settings, I'm pretty sure the way it works in 3.5 is that the first few generations of dilution are still mechanically Half-Elves, then eventually they're just Elves or Humans, possibly with a feat to represent the mixed heritage.

[Ravens_cry]

Another problem is that many elven 'racial' features are likely cultural, though I suppose it's possible, if creepy, for proficiency with certain weapons to be a genetic thing,

[Solaris]

I believe it's implied by the sidebar here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20051024a) on reincarnation.

Here's what I take from that: A member of a Dragonmarked race who is Reincarnated into a new race will retain his Dragonmark, if any. However, he cannot pass it on to heirs of the new race.
This tells me that members of a race that does not ordinarily get the Dragonmark cannot acquire it by birth from a parent who possesses it. For example, the Half-Orc child of a member of House Vadalis (a Human-only House) cannot acquire the Mark of Handling from his Human ancestry.

It's possible I missed a section, but that's what I recall.

The half-orc and human population of House Tharashk has led me to a different conclusion. That strongly suggests a half-elf could have a Dragonmark unique to humans or elves, a half-orc a 'mark unique to humans, and a human with an elven grandparent could have an elven 'mark.

[Red Fel]

The half-orc and human population of House Tharashk has led me to a different conclusion. That strongly suggests a half-elf could have a Dragonmark unique to humans or elves, a half-orc a 'mark unique to humans, and a human with an elven grandparent could have an elven 'mark.

I disagree. The Half-Orc and Human population of Tharashk tells me that Half-Orcs or Humans may bear the Mark of Finding. That's explicit and RAW. It does not tell me that Half-Orcs are able to inherit the Mark of Finding because of their Human heritage - that's an assumption. If it were true, we'd see Half-Elves and Half-Orcs in Cannith, Deneith, Orien, and Vadalis, and Half-Elves in Phiarlan and Thuranni. We don't. There is only one house with two races as its members, and that's Tharashk. There are no other mentions of hybrid races gaining a parent race's Dragonmark; and remember, the hybrid races are considered their own distinct racial group, not simply the immediate offspring of a Human and an X.

We can only take as given what's written. What's written is that Half-Orcs and Humans can have the Mark of Finding, not that the one inherited it from the other.

[Solaris]

I disagree. The Half-Orc and Human population of Tharashk tells me that Half-Orcs or Humans may bear the Mark of Finding. That's explicit and RAW. It does not tell me that Half-Orcs are able to inherit the Mark of Finding because of their Human heritage - that's an assumption. If it were true, we'd see Half-Elves and Half-Orcs in Cannith, Deneith, Orien, and Vadalis, and Half-Elves in Phiarlan and Thuranni. We don't. There is only one house with two races as its members, and that's Tharashk. There are no other mentions of hybrid races gaining a parent race's Dragonmark; and remember, the hybrid races are considered their own distinct racial group, not simply the immediate offspring of a Human and an X.

We can only take as given what's written. What's written is that Half-Orcs and Humans can have the Mark of Finding, not that the one inherited it from the other.

Which is a reasonable conclusion only if we can demonstrate the Mark of Finding arose only on half-orcs and humans, without any crossing-over in between the two happening, and/or something in the rules explicitly stating children can only inherit if they are of the same race as their parents. The best on that I can find is the entry for each of the 'marks, which says "The [race] of [House] carry the Mark of [whatever it is]", which if you wanted to go by that would limit all of them except for the Mark of Shadow (which lacks that in the text).
Going by that, however, rather dooms my case from the get-go unless we're talking about the Mark of Shadow. It's in fluff text portions, but I can't turn up anything stronger to contradict it.
It didn't quite cause physical pain to admit I was wrong, but it was close.

By what you cited, a Vadalis human reincarnated as a human would not be able to transmit the 'mark to his children - and to extrapolate as you did to all cases, that nobody could inherit from their parents. While certainly a reasonable explanation for something so clearly magical and thus not bound by any natural laws of inheritance, the text acts as though dragonmarks were something inherited much like red hair or blue eyes. Of course, checking with the campaign setting itself says I'm wrong by strict reading.

The single-race-per-house thing could be explained by their interest in keeping the bloodline pure, perhaps due to an increase in aberrant marks from cross-racial pairings.

[Sidmen]

I'm personally a fan of how they handle Half-Elves in David Weber's War God series.

Half-Elves breed true with Elves and other Half-Elves, but produce Human babies with other Humans.

[Thialfi]

We still play 2nd Edition where the breeding rules for half-elves are explicitly spelled out. No word on the breeding rules for Planescape races. Only in our group do you have to worry about things like a tiefling and air genasi getting overly friendly.

We tend to allow most cross breeds. Our group has been playing D&D since 1980. I am currently playing the offspring of my Kagonesti elven warrior. He settled down and married the half-drow girl of his dreams. That's a nice genetic mix for you.

[Psyren]

Bah, think you're so fancy with your book knowledge and facts and such.
Bah, I say, and, again, bah!:smallyuk: (:smallwink:)

I aim to please :smallbiggrin:


I always found the "use real world genetics for your mystical mutations that exist specifically because they defy known science" route to be a bit gauche myself. Punnet squares of elf childrens is akin to elf fertility like 'you roll dice and tabulate numbers against set difficulties to see if you beat enough benchmarks to declare a win' is to adventuring in D&D. Maybe accurate, sometimes, but boring as sin and not true to any of the source material.

Exaggeration aside, this subforum isn't limited to D&D, so we can discuss how other systems handle half-elves just fine.

[TheCountAlucard]

I'll take that as an invitation to bring up Exalted, thank you very much. :smallamused:

Half-fae and others among the Children of the Mighty are indeed fertile, but the nature of humanity is such that the traits of one born from such a union tend to diminish or disappear after a generation or so.

As such, a beastman with cat features who cross-breeds with a relatively-ordinary mortal will bear offspring with few to no cat features; perhaps the children will be born with slitted eyes, if anything. The same would generally be true, though, even if they bred with another cat-person.

Of course, some of the least traits may well persist even over numerous generations - many of the human natives of Creation tend to have exotic hair colors that are typically attributed to the individual's ancestors having included spirits or elementals in the distant past.

[Ravens_cry]

Honestly, I've tended to like fantasy to be 'as real unless otherwise'. Overuse of magic just makes the magic, well, less magical. I don't mind, in fact, I like, magic being used as technology, but explaining every discrepancy as 'Oh, it's magic' just cheapens it. If we are going to assume elves and humans are closely related enough to breed, then, well then, I see no reason not to apply real world rules to it. That being said, here is oversimulation, of course.

[Sidmen]

Honestly, I've tended to like fantasy to be 'as real unless otherwise'. Overuse of magic just makes the magic, well, less magical. I don't mind, in fact, I like, magic being used as technology, but explaining every discrepancy as 'Oh, it's magic' just cheapens it. If we are going to assume elves and humans are closely related enough to breed, then, well then, I see no reason not to apply real world rules to it. That being said, here is oversimulation, of course.

Yeah, I can see that. I like to know the mechanics or whys behind things (sadly, my group is much less interested in it all). In the afore mentioned War God series, Elves are explained.

They are a magically created race - long ago the greatest wizards took all the people innately gifted with magic and turned their gifts in on themselves, to make them effectively immortal. Their children are rare, but also have that looping magic field that keeps them immortal. When they mate with regular humans - the result is a child with only a tenuous touch on that magic field: the Half-Elves. And when they mate with another human the connection is broken completely, resulting in pure humans.

[SiuiS]

Shining South does touch on "how much drow blood is needed to qualify as a half-drow" though.

1/32 drow blood is about the minimum required to be "Crinti" (half-drow in law). One of the city rulers is called a "half-drow aristocrat 13" and has that level of drow blood - and looks a lot more like a human than a drow - though she still benefits from the half-drow abilities.

Interesting. That's pretty neat.


Wait, what? It's the default Pathfinder setting, and PF is a relatively sizeable portion of the D&D community.

A large portion of the D&D community playing another game does not make that game D&D, it makes that other game popular. It's a technical point within the greater discussion of the subforum, but if one is specifically on a D&D tangent, non-D&D games don't apply.

Interestingly, Rokugan is also D&D under that consideration; it's made by the same company as D&D and has an official tie in product in addition to it's continued second-party products. Star wars D20 as well, I think.

That's a hell of a setting. Hmm.


2e's outlook on races is not necessarily something the third generation of D&D players has read or uses, however. I wouldn't call anything it says a default assumption of the game.

Another technicality. D&D is as much a tradition as it is a game. While the players may not care, the designers definitely did – the original third edition was almost a love letter to the nostalgia that people were beginning to feel, and the first few extra products carried the excitement of new discovery in old terrain. It is to our benefit to learn and understand, even if after understanding we disagree. The inertia of the implied setting – which was so much a part of first and second edition advanced dungeons and dragons that the designers and game makers literally declared people who discarded it were no longer playing D&D but having badwrongfun – still informs a large amount of the subtext and metaconceits that guide the game and system.

This is why 5e has so many shoddy rules. When viewed from the D&D angle they're sloppy, but they're attempts to half-way approach entirely different concepts and conceits of gaming and game design, but the people doing so are just so intimately familiar with D&D but not the new approaches that it's a kludge.


Another problem is that many elven 'racial' features are likely cultural, though I suppose it's possible, if creepy, for proficiency with certain weapons to be a genetic thing,

Aye. I tried breaking each race down into it's genetic and cultural components for homebrew, so I could have like, humans raised by dwarves and stuff, but it was a nightmare.


I'm personally a fan of how they handle Half-Elves in David Weber's War God series.

Half-Elves breed true with Elves and other Half-Elves, but produce Human babies with other Humans.

Ooh, Hm. That's usable.



Exaggeration aside, this subforum isn't limited to D&D, so we can discuss how other systems handle half-elves just fine.

We can indeed. I wasn't discussing D&D at that point however. I was saying I find a certain way of doing things personally distasteful.


Honestly, I've tended to like fantasy to be 'as real unless otherwise'. Overuse of magic just makes the magic, well, less magical. I don't mind, in fact, I like, magic being used as technology, but explaining every discrepancy as 'Oh, it's magic' just cheapens it. If we are going to assume elves and humans are closely related enough to breed, then, well then, I see no reason not to apply real world rules to it. That being said, here is oversimulation, of course.

But if one of the original three magics is continued, that's not overuse. Creation, procreation and [forgot ^^"] are the ones that are a large part of human heritage. "Humans that enter the Other and engage in the primal acts of Life have their children touched by that Otherness" is hardly a cop out. It's foundational to a lot of the underpinnings of out archetypes.

Elves, in D&D and probably everything ever, are derived from those archetypes. Those few elves I've seen that aren't based on these myths are based on D&D, which is... Derivative and only a degree or two away from those myths.

There are actually a number of detailed explanations why this is how D&D does it, different between editions and sometimes settings, but hardly just "magic did it".

[the_david]

I think it depends on the setting. In Dark Sun you've got dwarf human hybrids known as mul. These are sterile, while most settings have half-elves and half-orcs that can "breed true". The CRPG "Arcanum: of Steamworks and Magick Obscura" has sterile Half-Ogres. Golarion has inbreeding Ogrekin. Dragonlance has half-elves, half-dwarves, half-ogres, half-kender, half-gnomes and half-goblins.

So just use whatever fits your game as there isn't a single answer to your question.

[sktarq]

Well, the book of Erotic Fantasy has a chart for these things. . . Which I will let you all look up yourselves if you are old enough. But Half Elves seems rather fertile in it. How canon you take that book is of course up to you. In fact the whole issue is one that seems to be a place of fertile unless it adds to the setting type thing.

[Talakeal]

I believe in D&D hybrids can freely breed.

In reality it is a little more complicated. Most hybrids are sterile, however there are some individuals who are capable of breeding, and some entire species (for example dogs and wolves) who can produce fertile hybrids.

Also, I would shy away from saying things like "If two half elves mate they have a 50% chance of producing a Half Elf, 25% chance elf, and 25% chance human." This treats species as if it was a single gene, which it most certainly is not. Some might look more like one species than another, but genetically they will almost certainly be roughly 50% of each species, although not necessarily in the same combinations, which means that some traits may or may not appear, and some may have a huge impact on the final creature, especially if other genetic traits are dependent on them.

In my personal campaign world most hybrids are sterile, but there are exceptions.

Also, elves and other fey creatures do not follow normal rules for breeding. If one breeds with a mortal that child might have some unusual physical characteristics, but it is not an elf and has no innate magic, and regardless who it breeds with its descendants will never be elves.
Even here there are some exceptions, for example Nymphs are always female and Satyrs always male, and thus they can mate with mortals, which the children either being fey or mortal depending on whether or not they share the magical parent's gender.

[Coidzor]

Well, if it's possible to have a half-elf in the first place, since we're ruling out worlds where elves are actually just sapient-ish ambulatory plants, yeah, sure, make 'em have working equipment.


I always found the "use real world genetics for your mystical mutations that exist specifically because they defy known science" route to be a bit gauche myself. Punnet squares of elf childrens is akin to elf fertility like 'you roll dice and tabulate numbers against set difficulties to see if you beat enough benchmarks to declare a win' is to adventuring in D&D. Maybe accurate, sometimes, but boring as sin and not true to any of the source material.

Depends on how much I'm drawing upon Arcanum for something determines how I feel about it. I mean, if the only reason for the various humanoid races is that a bunch of gods decided to get creative with the Sim Earth style evolution levers for their particular tribes...


Golarion isn't standard D&D, though. It's not even a different campaign setting, it's on the same level of difference as the world of warcraft d20 game is. Golarion elves are also six feet tall, four feet of which is their ears. Different species from D&D elf, really.

Whoa. Damn. I missed that. :smalleek:


It's also funny because every later, definitive source does not actually contradict this at all; two half elves (each 50/50) would of course produce another half elf — they produce children who are also 50/50. Really, the only weird thing is the "cannot ever produce an elf" part, which I like to hold in reserve as a thing that goes away for children of momentous occasions and world shaking prophecies. The human child who turns out to have been a half elf all along, or the half elf child who is really an elf (perhaps even a lost species!) is cool.

Aye, and it even lets you have siblings who are different races mechanically. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe even throw in a character who is an atavistic throwback to Neanderthal or Orc!


Another problem is that many elven 'racial' features are likely cultural, though I suppose it's possible, if creepy, for proficiency with certain weapons to be a genetic thing,

Corellon Larethian is a skeevy, skeevy true-hermaphroditic Power that largely uses masculine pronouns, yes. I mean, he only made Lolth cursed to have a spider badonkadonk in order to keep him from wanting to tap that again later which would have caused him to forget why he was mad at her in the first place. :smalltongue:

[gutza1]

In my campaign setting, humanity is divided into two species, Homo Sapiens (humans, elves, and orks), and Homo Exigus (Short Man, includes swarves, haflings, and gnomes). Members of a species can interbreed with other subspecies of the same species, explaining why half-orcs and half-elves exist, but not half-dwarves. However, there are dwarf-gnome or dwarf-halfling hybrids (stout halflings).

[goto124]

I mean, if the only reason for the various humanoid races is that a bunch of gods decided to get creative with the Sim Earth style evolution levers for their particular tribes...

That sounds rather likely, funnily enough.

[SiuiS]

Well, if it's possible to have a half-elf in the first place, since we're ruling out worlds where elves are actually just sapient-ish ambulatory plants, yeah, sure, make 'em have working equipment.


Socratic selection and all.



Whoa. Damn. I missed that. :smalleek:


Aye. I don't mind it and it's probably an improvement, but it's also a clear deal.



Aye, and it even lets you have siblings who are different races mechanically. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe even throw in a character who is an atavistic throwback to Neanderthal or Orc!


Oh hey! A race of half elves that are always sickly and weak until one generation, a set of siblings come out as human, half elf and half Orc; the mingled Orc and elf blood made them all throughout history kind of ill.



Corellon Larethian is a skeevy, skeevy true-hermaphroditic Power that largely uses masculine pronouns, yes. I mean, he only made Lolth cursed to have a spider badonkadonk in order to keep him from wanting to tap that again later which would have caused him to forget why he was mad at her in the first place. :smalltongue:

I love you sometimes. XD