Panultimate Character

[AOKost]

My question is simple to ask, possibly impossible to answer...

What would be the panultimate character build, using any and all resources from D&D 3.X and Pathfinder?

If this has already been done, please show me where, or if you have an idea, please drop it below, with descriptions on how and why things are taken.

[BWR]

1. I think you mean 'penultimate' not 'panultimate'
2. penultimate =/= ultimate. Penultimate means 'second place', roughly.
3. The ultimate build would probably be Pun-pun. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486)

[natos4unlife]

I don't really have an answer as to what would be the *ultimate* build. I just need to say, Pun-Pun requires some pretty loose and overly liberal interpretations in order to exist.

[One Step Two]

That said, I believe the Pan-ultimate character is either a Drunken master using Pans as improvised weapon, or the Tauric Hulking Hurler who uses a colossal Pan-shaped object made of obdurium to deal enough damage that it can annihilate planets. That should be enough to cause some pan-demonium.

[AOKost]

You would be correct, 'penultimate' is what I meant. I'm a horrible speller and always have been. It generally means 'last in an order of things' the last being the most/least desirable depending upon the context.

I've seen mention of 2 builds for Pun Pun, one using Psionics, and the other using a different build of Divine Minion, Wizard, and Master of Many Forms... This later build I don't feel is legal even given lax rulings due to the fact that MoMF requires the Wild Shape class feature, and I do not beliece that can be gotten past by taking Divine Minion...

I wish I could remember where I found the Psionic version of Pun Pun... But then again, I believe this character build is entirely left up to the DM to let it work or not to begin with :D

[ILM]

You would be correct, 'penultimate' is what I meant. I'm a horrible speller and always have been. It generally means 'last in an order of things' the last being the most/least desirable depending upon the context.
I hate to be that guy but it's actually the one before last (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/penultimate).

[AOKost]

I'm not debating that Dictionary.com gave that definition, I was using http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/penultimate ...

[BWR]

I'm not debating that Dictionary.com gave that definition, I was using http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/penultimate ...



Um, that says exactly what we've been saying. Last but one, second to last, the one before the last, the semi-final, the runner up - you get the idea.

[Eldan]

The two thrown around are Pun-pun and the Omniscifier. The most liberal interpretation of the Sarrukh is "can write new abilities into the game", at which point I'm not sure anything can be better than Pun-Pun. Because Pun-pun can just give themselves all abilities of whatever is threatening to beat him.

[Doc_Maynot]

I've seen mention of 2 builds for Pun Pun, one using Psionics, and the other using a different build of Divine Minion, Wizard, and Master of Many Forms... This later build I don't feel is legal even given lax rulings due to the fact that MoMF requires the Wild Shape class feature, and I do not beliece that can be gotten past by taking Divine Minion...

So you haven't heard of the level 1 Kobold Paladin Pun-Pun?

[sonofzeal]

I just need to say, Pun-Pun requires some pretty loose and overly liberal interpretations in order to exist.

It really, really doesn't. The lvl 5 version passes the highest level of rigor. Even the lvl 1 version is well within RAW, it just depends on Pazuzu acting in the way he's described as acting.

The only "loose interpretation" is whether or not Manipulate Form can grant abilities that have not been given to any listed creature. I personally disagree, but even the "strict" version has literally infinite stats in all areas, as well as infinite speed and reach, immunity to everything you'd want to be immune to, infinite actions per turn, etc.

That's the strict version.

[eggynack]

Huh. Now I'm kinda disappointed. I'd assumed that "panultimate", within the context of the phrase, "using any and all resources from D&D 3.X and Pathfinder," meant that the goal was a character using as many source books as possible in its construction, while justifying that decision. In other words, the ultimate build in terms of how broadly it reaches. Was thinking a caster would be the obvious best choice, particularly a wizard or druid, because you get to pull spells from the books with spells, and you get to pull forms for polymorph/wild shape from the books with monsters, and that gets you pretty far. Would've actually posted something along those lines, but the PF thing turned me away a bit. Could've been fun.

Separately, this seems like a rare case of two wrongs making a right. The OP assumed that penultimate meant ultimate, and also assumed that pun-pun was out of the contention for whatever reason, but those two things combine rather well, I think. After all, if pun-pun is the ultimate build, then someone seeking the best build disregarding pun-pun would want the penultimate build.

[Doc_Maynot]

I'd go with an Arcanist picking up the Versatile Spellcaster feat to start with in this exercise.

[AOKost]

I really would like to see some over-powered builds, all the cheese and RAW shinaniganery that can be added. I Don't care how many levels you add of what class, or what spells you take to make your builds.

Please don't take the following as a rant, it isn't. Just explaining how I feel about the game in general:

As a side note, one of my favorite characters to play for shere diversity is Arcanist/Rainbow Servant. Being able to learn spells as a wizard from Wizard/Sorcerer spell lists, and Divine spell lists is amazing in and of itself, but being able to prepare and cast spells the way that Arcaniss do is even better... Yes, some say that's over the top, but I feel it's great! I also prefer using the Magic Point system compared to the regular spells per day system generally employed http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm .

There are tons of builds, and I very much like the Kobold Psionic Pun Pun as I feel that's a bit more RAW than using Divine Minion method... Even though the Divine Minion allows the use of Wild Shape as an 11th level Druid, I don't think that it's the same as attaining the actual class feature as if taking a couple levels of druid to gain the Wild Shape class feature. I know this may seem like semantics to some, but to me it's a bit of a jump... Yes, Pun Pun is UBER to say the least, but what fun would it be to play that at such low levels? At least work your way up a bit before trying to become all powerful! :P A level 12 character being able to B**** slap Cthullu into submission is already a bit far fetched, but acceptable by saying they leave the game for places unimagined to mere mortals, and then banning them from the game.

If the character uses the Pun Pun Psion build to just become a lot more powerful, but not downright insane, I would allow the character to remain in play. The most powerful being I've ever encountered in any of the books for brute Strength and Constitution is probably Thor, with a 98 Strength and 80 Constitution if I remember correctly. That's still mindblowing. If a character can limit themselves to still be playable, the they should remain in play. The MAX I would allow would be 110 in each stat just to have a nice round number... But even that is way too out there. I would probably keep giving them perminant ability damage to strength, Dexterity and Constitution if they did that. I Would rather see a character that boosted mental stats over Physical though. Any character with a natural, non magicaly enhanced stats (the way that Pun Pun can perminantly enhcance it's stats) over 40 will generally be killed by something, somehow. A player that can boost their stats, and keep themselves in check by not letting it go to their head, and showing off to the group by keeping it on the down low and making the game still fun is completely acceptable.

What I'm really looking for are builds that come close to breaking the game, but don't. I love reading about builds that are able to break the game, and especially those that are RAW compatible. But that's not as much fun for the rest of the players at the table.

I have more repect for a player that comes to the table with a player and their character when we start a game that comes to the table with a character that starts with a Commoner level 1 that was given a Short Sword by their grand father, no armor, a few days of rations, and that's about it, than someone that comes to the table with an ubered character from a noble family with money out the wazoo at 1st level...

That's just how I feel though. Not everyone starts off epic, or with amazing backgrounds. The 1st level Commoner or even Expert that has ranks in Profession (whatever), or Craft (whatever), and are played with more RP I often give more XP and minor things to than the Fighter that can kill everything with 1 hit, or the Wizard that's all about blasting... In my games, the better you RP, the more you come up with ways around things, the more I will reward you. Also, I usually advance levels in our group rather quickly, requiring roughly 1/4 the normal experience needed to level up, so taking a level of Commoner or Expert doesn't hurt as much as it normally would.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Behind pun pun, in a -very- distant second place, is probably one or another version of a batman wizard at Tippy levels of optimization.

[sonofzeal]

Personally, I think the second most powerful character is probably H.I.V.E or the Nasty Gentleman. Googling either of those (or LordOfProcrastination's "dirty tricks" in general) will get you far. It's old, but few have approached it since.

[(Un)Inspired]

What about a psionic sandwich built that becomes a pan instead of a sandwich. You need ranks in craft: cookery instead of craft: sandwich but the build should still work.

Has anyone tried this? I assume the power would be slightly less that the true sandwich build for obvious reasons.

[Threadnaught]

Behind pun pun, in a -very- distant second place, is probably one or another version of a batman wizard at Tippy levels of optimization.

That would actually be a Psion, using Spell to Power Erudite to transform every Spell into a Power and using an ability to gain every single Power/Spell ever, while using every available Infinite PP Trick and Action Economy Breaker.

I remember a post by Emperor Win stating that Psions have the higher Rudisplork ceiling, or something to that effect.

[AOKost]

@Threadnot: could you please tell me more about this?

[Threadnaught]

@Threadnot: could you please tell me more about this?

Better, here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17830124&postcount=46) to the post in question.

While you're there, you may as well read why people enjoy Emperor Win's presence here.

[AOKost]

I'll do that! Thanks for the link!

EDIT: The link isn't opening... It's just taking me to a completely blank page...

[Threadnaught]

I'll do that! Thanks for the link!

EDIT: The link isn't opening... It's just taking me to a completely blank page...

Strange, it should be taking you to Emperor Win's first post in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363736-Tippy) thread. If this one doesn't work, try searching for a thread titled "Tippy" by the user ".Zero", there you will learn about Emperor Win. There's also a quick explanation about the Rudisplorkers' Guild in case you were wondering about all the Orcus and Rudisplorkery related signatures. :smallwink:

[eggynack]

Or just do a search for Tippy stuff in general. You can't go too far off course, I think. Separately, I just found a typo of mine in that thread, and am surprisingly annoyed by the fact that I can't edit it, as it's a locked thread.

[JusticeZero]

Panultimate? Whatever you gravitate to playing in your twilight years, I guess.

[Zubrowka74]

That said, I believe the Pan-ultimate character is either a Drunken master using Pans as improvised weapon, or the Tauric Hulking Hurler who uses a colossal Pan-shaped object made of obdurium to deal enough damage that it can annihilate planets. That should be enough to cause some pan-demonium.

You, sir, made me laugh and thus deserve a cookie.

http://www.civilsociety.co.uk/images/thumbs/cookie250_1_250.jpg

[Forrestfire]

I'd say Fusion+Astral Seed Psion, since they can psionic sandwich themselves into a pan.

[bigerxman]

Im too lazy to be ultimate, but my favorite thing to do is to be an :aasimar fighter5 mortal hunter 10 warshaper 5...in 3.5

it allows you to be any non templated creature, so killva commoner and wear their skin, and 1 round later be the terrasque for an hour, or forever depending on how your dm rules on things with permanent duration. Because it isnt instantaneous it can be dispelled, so most of the gms I talk to agree warshaper allows you to use that method to be anything/one that is allowed by the mortal hunter class.


in pathfinder hybrids I tend to build a kobold gunslinger with 16d6 sneak attack because lazyness and not wanting to use magic itemsnor all of my feats for a PrC.

[Fax Celestis]

If not Pun-Pun or the Omniscifier, then surely the Twice-Betrayer of Shar. http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1007491

[Extra Anchovies]

If not Pun-Pun or the Omniscifier, then surely the Twice-Betrayer of Shar. http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1007491

Indeed. I'd say that Pun-Pun and Omniscificer tie for Ultimate Build (in part due to Pun-Pun being more of a rules exploit than it is a build), with the TBoS taking second place in terms of recognition and sheer TO-ness.