Beguiler vs. Undead Horde

[Palanan]

Second session of a new campaign, and my beguiler has been ambushed, abducted, and conscripted into an army facing an undead assault.

He will, of course, be part of a "special unit" including his two less-than-loyal traveling companions--a human paladin and a werebear druid--and a battle cleric who will be assigned to our squad.

The paladin brings his warmace, the cleric brings positive energy and the werebear brings the rahr. But what can a beguiler bring to an undead fight?

He's third level. Good at Diplomacy. Help?

[malonkey1]

Use illusions to control the battlefield? If I'm not mistaken, you should at least have Minor Image, so use that to make illusory obstacles, or decoy targets.

[Jack_Simth]

PHB II Beguiler?

Rogue Skills (Stealth, Perception, Disable Device, Use Magic Device), Silent Image, Obscurring Mist, and Mage Armor. If you can sneak Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon) past your DM, you can also bring Glitterdust and Invisibility to the table.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
PHB II Beguiler?

It's actually a PF conversion of the 3.5 beguiler. Not sure where my DM found it, but it looks like a solid adaptation.


Originally Posted by malonkey1
Use illusions to control the battlefield?

So far that hasn't worked well on prior opponents, and I don't know if it'll have any effect on undead.

So far my favorite spell has been Vanish, which I have by way of Advanced Learning at third level. Best I can think is to Vanish, attack, and Vanish again, but that burns through my spells pretty quickly.

My other option is to grab a crossbow and do my best to provide ranged support…but since my character was a diplomat and ministry official, he has zero feats for ranged combat, so I don't know how effective he'd be.

[Doc_Maynot]

You will need to pick up Threnodic Spell via Sacred Geometry if possible or Song of the Dead as soon as you can. Lets you use your mind-affecting spells on undead (even mindless undead with Threnodic Spell) as if they weren't immune.

[Gnome Alone]

A lot of illusions should actually be foolproof against undead. Unless they all somehow have True Seeing, if they see a wall go up, I'd think their corpse-y programming would just go, "Whoa. Wall there, chap. That's a good fellow, hold up a bit." Of course this wouldn't really matter with a DM who goes the route where all the zombos can see through everything, or one who's hostile to illusions anyway.

Alternately, maybe it's time to use those fancy mind control powers to convince someone that a freaking diplomat is not gonna be best utilized as an infantry grunt.

Sounds like a pretty tough situation.

[Vortenger]

If you can dig up the All About Illusions article on the WotC archive (I believe also located in Rubik's sig line here on GitP) it goes on to explain than unintelligent undead are essentially not allowed a saving throw vs. disbelief when throwing out Silent Image and its successors. They are not capable of disbelieving anything on their own accord. In Gnome's example, if you create an illusionary wall around some skellies, they're trapped. They can't 'interact' with the illusion and thus believe it real. Eh, the article explains this all much better than I do.

Another way to look at it: Every 1'st level spell is a silent image that shuts down an entire encounter's worth of zombies or skillies by caging them. If your DM cries foul, then the articles will show them the error of their ruling ways. Consider it a security measure when the DM first realizes that 'immunity to illusions' is very subjective with undead. Basically, don't let the DM screw you on this.

[georgie_leech]

You will need to pick up Threnodic Spell via Sacred Geometry if possible or Song of the Dead as soon as you can. Lets you use your mind-affecting spells on undead (even mindless undead with Threnodic Spell) as if they weren't immune.

Take this advice with a grain of salt, and be sure to run it by your DM if you decide to take the feat. It's one of the weirdest, potentially powerful, and fiddly-est feats in the game.

[Blackhawk748]

Figure ill just drop this off here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a)

And it does make sense that unintelligent things cant disbelieve illusions, they dont have an Int score therefore they have no idea what is real or not. Also i just realized that you can shut down Golems with this trick too.

[Ravens_cry]

If you are using a 3rd Party Pathfinder conversion, and you find a need for some actual mind affecting spells, there is always Threnodic spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic) At +2 spell levels, it's expensive, but at least it can happen. Alternatively, 1 level dip undead bloodline sorcerer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/undead-bloodline) lets you affect corporeal undead who were once humanoids as humanoids. For added fun, people often forget that giants are now humanoids in Pathfinder.

[Doc_Maynot]

Take this advice with a grain of salt, and be sure to run it by your DM if you decide to take the feat. It's one of the weirdest, potentially powerful, and fiddly-est feats in the game.

I add on an "if possible" to the end of that.

[georgie_leech]

I add on an "if possible" to the end of that.

Mm, I just think it's worth pointing out that the obstacle isn't so much the direct requirements, but if the DM will allow it. 2 free metamagic feats at the cost of bogging down gameplay is something that not every DM is going to be on board with.

[Doc_Maynot]

Mm, I just think it's worth pointing out that the obstacle isn't so much the direct requirements, but if the DM will allow it. 2 free metamagic feats at the cost of bogging down gameplay is something that not every DM is going to be on board with.

I don't know really about bogging down the game, I typically have it figured out by the time my next turn comes along which since it ups the casting time of the spell, is when it's needed by. If one doesn't have it solved by then, it's pretty easy just to rule that they have until the spell would be cast to solve it. And the metamagics can only be used by the feat, and even the feat has limits. (Can't go beyond what level spells you can cast, the fact you have to do maths mid fight, etc.)

[Snowbluff]

Slow is on your spell list if illusions fail you. :l

[nedz]

Slow is on your spell list if illusions fail you. :l

But not at level 3 — read the OP.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by nedz
But not at level 3 — read the OP.

Thank you, yes.

Solutions that require another feat won't work here, since that won't happen for another two levels, and we're hitting the battlefield at dawn the next game day.


Originally Posted by Vortenger
If you can dig up the All About Illusions article on the WotC archive….


Originally Posted by Blackhawk748
Figure ill just drop this off here….

Outstanding, thanks.

Question is, do these fine distinctions and subschools (figment vs. glamer, etc.) carry over into Pathfinder? We're allowed 3.5 content on a case-by-case basis, but the game's chassis is Pathfinder and it's the CRB we use for reference.

Also, the DM has emphatically declared that "story trumps rules," so there's only so much rule-arguing I can do.


Originally Posted by Gnome Alone
Alternately, maybe it's time to use those fancy mind control powers to convince someone that a freaking diplomat is not gonna be best utilized as an infantry grunt.

Yes, and in fact I had a intricate plan as to how I would impress the commanding officer and convince him my talents were best employed elsewhere.

And then the &#%@$!! werebear blundered over and offended him, and we were all assigned as grunts.

:smallannoyed:

[Gnome Alone]

But not at level 3 — read the OP.

Well, he said :|

[nedz]

Solutions that require another feat won't work here, since that won't happen for another two levels, and we're hitting the battlefield at dawn the next game day.

Well what feats etc. do you have ?
So far we have little to go on except to say "Silent Image"



Outstanding, thanks.

Question is, do these fine distinctions and subschools (figment vs. glamer, etc.) carry over into Pathfinder? We're allowed 3.5 content on a case-by-case basis, but the game's chassis is Pathfinder and it's the CRB we use for reference.

Well those articles aren't even 3.5 RAW, but the basic principle should be good.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Undead are immune to mind-affecting, so the important thing is: what is mind affecting and what is not? For that, we check the PHB. This advise may be different for pathfinder, as I am unfamiliar with the particulars of that group of published houserules.

A Figment creates false sensation. It is not mind-affecting, therefore it will affect mindless undead. Therefore, until they interact with it, they're pretty much boned. Minor Image and Silent Image are two examples you can use at first level which fall into this category. I particularly like using Silent Image to create fake walls for battlefield control.

However, if a creature does not primarily use sight to target with, then it doesn't really do much. For example, if the undead in your world can detect the life essence (Lifesense), it isn't going to be fooled by an illusion for very long.

A Glamer is something like a targeted Figment that alters sensory input from a given target. Invisibility falls into this category, because you are taking a target, and making it appear invisible.

A Pattern is mind-affecting, so it will not have any effect on undead. They tend to be more area-effect on anyone looking at them.

A Phantasm is a special express ticket to mind-screw-ville. Rather than create an external illusion of something, as with a Figment or Glamer, it is created exclusively within the mind of the target. As such, it is mind-affecting and will not have any effect on undead. Phantasmal Killer is one such example.

A shadow spell is partially real, so it WILL have an effect on anything. Consider it to be evocation-lite.

So, assuming pathfinder hasn't changed anything, then have fun with any Figments, Glamers, or Shadow spells you have available. I don't believe you currently have access to any Shadow spells, but you still have your illusionary spells available.

Also, undead are immune to non-lethal, so the Whelm series is not going to work either.

Your best bet is to use your illusions for battlefield control, and apply crossbow to undead liberally. You don't have any feats involved in doing it, so it won't be the best, but it's better than nothing, and about the best that can be hoped for from a class with a diametrically opposite focus from the current campaign setting. You'd have done better to have Charmed the superior officer into assigning you to a support team.