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Jendekit
2014-12-14, 06:36 PM
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall set me free.

—the Sith Code

There's an NPC Sith lord in a game I'll be starting soon that is a Light Side Force user, but is still a fervent believer in the Sith Code. I already know how I want to roleplay him, but I'd like to hear the playground's thoughts on the topic.

How would YOU roleplay a light sided Sith?

Waddacku
2014-12-14, 06:38 PM
I... wouldn't? Obviously you can do what you want with it, but I'm pretty sure Light-side Sith just isn't possible in Star Wars.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-12-14, 06:43 PM
I'll admit to having a pretty broad lack of knowledge about the Star Wars setting but I don't think that works that way.

The nature of the force is such that if you adhere to the sith code you -are- a dark side force user. It's not so much that the sith wrote that code then chose the dark side but that they wielded the dark side and then created that code as they explored how it worked.

I could, of course, be wrong about that but it's how I understood it to be.

I'll leave the fact that Lucas completely bastardized the Tao Te Ching and Zen Bhuddism to create his supernatural "force" alone though and just say that the source material has both sides as equal but different rather than one being good and the other evil.

Coidzor
2014-12-14, 08:26 PM
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall set me free.

—the Sith Code

There's an NPC Sith lord in a game I'll be starting soon that is a Light Side Force user, but is still a fervent believer in the Sith Code. I already know how I want to roleplay him, but I'd like to hear the playground's thoughts on the topic.

How would YOU roleplay a light sided Sith?

You wouldn't. The other Sith trying to murder his ass for being a Light-Sided weakling would have made him angry if he survived and led to the Dark Side and the status quo for Sith or he would have had to flee them and would have likely become disillusioned with the Sith and gone his own way to form his own philosophy, because Jedi and Sith aren't the only options. I swear. Even though they're all no longer canon because of Disney's acquisition of the IP.

I mean, he could be a crazy Sith-Exile or something. He would not be a Sith Lord, though, he wouldn't have been able to ascend Sith society pre-Rule-of-Two and he wouldn't have been able to stay as either Master or Apprentice as a Light-Sider.

Red Fel
2014-12-14, 08:55 PM
As others have pointed out, a Light-sided Sith is virtually impossible. That said, I'm going to assume for sake of argument that it is possible, and go from there.

Short answer? He thinks he's God. Capital-G God.

Here's why. The Jedi bring balance wherever they go. They encourage harmony, but they themselves endeavor to withdraw from the world, being impartial outsiders, observers, and adjudicators, unless they are forced into action to preserve balance. The Sith are the opposite; they live very much within the world, using the Force as a tool to advance themselves and their own aims, whatever they may be. They can at best be described as self-indulgent and self-promoting, and most importantly unrestrained.

Now for the two sides of the Force. The Light side is about subtlety, manipulation, and defense. The Dark side is about raw power and destruction.

The usual Jedi method is Light, because Jedi are subtle, and they use the Light to manipulate subtly. They abhor the Dark side because they're not about destruction, and the idea of raw power is a temptation they avoid. The Sith gravitate towards the Dark because it's easy and effective; brute force and destructive fury gets them what they want.

Now, take the Sith philosophy of using the Force as a tool to get what you want, and combine it with the Light's tendency to manipulate and defend, rather than brute force. Where does that put you?

It gives you a person who believes in himself first and foremost, whose powers can warp minds and move mountains, who renders himself unassailable. He knows what is best for the world. He doesn't fight his enemies; he makes them worship him.

Dark-siders you can trust to fight, to consume and destroy. But a Light-side Sith? He doesn't want the universe destroyed. He just wants it to revolve around him. He wields his Force powers, not like a bludgeon, but like a poison-tipped dart, a subtle and insidious weapon more deadly than Force Lightning.

That said? Wouldn't happen. The Sith teach the Dark Side, and the Jedi wouldn't teach the Light Side to someone with obvious Sith tendencies. Besides, the Light side requires focus, concentration and serenity; and as the Sith code teaches, passion, not peace, is the road to power.

Why does everyone try to make Gray Jedi?

Arbane
2014-12-14, 11:38 PM
Why does everyone try to make Gray Jedi?

Because the Black and White, one-slip-and-you-turn-ugly-and-evil morality of the standard Star Wars makes for less interesting stories, as a wild guess. Besides, all that stuff is just Jedi propaganda - if they were REALLY so enlightened, why'd they nearly go extinct? (Yes, the Sith nearly went extinct too, but we know why - they're self-destructive dumbasses and everyone sane hates them.)

Heck, the Knights of the Old Republic MMO lets you make Light Side Sith. They'll still do some fairly reprehensible things, but it IS possible.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-12-15, 12:21 AM
I think it happens because it's a paradox people like to wrap their minds around. It's an intellectual puzzle. It's a problem that demands answers.

Scyrner
2014-12-15, 12:45 AM
I don't think that a Light-Side Sith is an impossibility. I think it's pretty much an impossibility after the Rule of Two stuff, but in the Old Republic Era I think it could work. It would depend very much on the character of the sith's master; the master would need to value results and suchlike above methods. I think, for the most part, the Light Side Sith Warrior and Inquisitor in Star Wars: The Old Republic are quite good stories and versions of how that might play out.

Spoilers for Star Wars: The Old Republic Inquisitor Story-line below:

Essentially, after the Inquisitor defends themselves against their master's assassination attempt and kills her you need to gather more power because *reasons* and the way you go about it is by binding and utilizing the power of ancient ghosts. Pretty much, the dark side option is force them to serve you, the light side option is convince them too

If they can survive the brainwashing of the Sith Academy, there's nothing inherently "evil" about the Sith. The issue is that people don't often have the willpower to sustain themselves against the allure of the Dark Side if they don't use the force in a somewhat less "loose" manner.

I think it'd be totally possible to have a Light Side Sith Archivist who believes the Sith Code is correct, but believes that passion doesn't necessarily mean anger, rage, fear, etc. It could be conviction or love (cheesy, but this is Star Wars). They might also not act in a evil way. It would be difficult to do, but it definitely could be done.


Edit: Realized I didn't actually address the question.

Aisling Aonar: Light Side Sith Ambassador, Sith Lord, Apprentice to the Heretic - Darth Grathan

Aisling was taken from her family as a child to become the apprentice of Darth Grathan on Drommund Kass. Grathan was largely laissez-faire regarding her education, beyond the tenants of the Sith Code, which she took too quickly. Aisling soon realized that, in a community of such tension and fear as the Sith Empire under Darth Vitiate, people often responded better to a kind ear than to bared teeth, as there is always someone scarier, but rarely someone willing to listen. In the beginning, her methods were driven by her desire to impress Grathan, and impress him she did, not with her methods, but with her results. That wasn't to say that Grathan didn't take notice of her peculiar way of interacting with her subordinates, but when he noticed that there were far more people willing to support her in a pinch, than his other, rather more stereotypical apprentice, he began to become curious. He began to watch her closely as she matured in her power and her understanding of the Sith Philosophy, and came to understand that her sympathy concealed not weakness, but an indomitable strength. Love her, and she will move mountains for you. Harm those she loves, and she will drop those mountains on you. When Darth Grathan was eventually killed and his position taken by a rival Sith Lord, Aisling began to plot against him, knowing that, with the power granted to her by the title Darth, she could build her influence throughout the Empire, until, eventually, the Sith Code would be understood not as a weapon of anger, but as a tool by which one can gain one's freedom, as it should be.

Back-story done, moving on:
She would be quiet and reserved, often holding her comments till the end while among other Sith, wary of their spontaneous rages. She would try to fly under the radar, as best she could, in order to avoid the attention of Sith who might take offense to her considerably more open minded viewpoint. She would cultivate allies in every reach of life, allowing them certain latitudes when possible, in order to reinforce herself against a more immediately powerful Sith's challenge. Her goal would be to fix the Empire because "The Empire will be destroyed by the Republic, because we will destroy ourselves. The Sith must change, they must develop, and they must embrace a different way of practicing the Code. As long as we embrace the Dark Side to find our passions, we will always find ourselves at odds with the Republic, and that is a war which we cannot win."

kardar233
2014-12-15, 01:21 AM
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall set me free.

—the Sith Code

There's an NPC Sith lord in a game I'll be starting soon that is a Light Side Force user, but is still a fervent believer in the Sith Code. I already know how I want to roleplay him, but I'd like to hear the playground's thoughts on the topic.

How would YOU roleplay a light sided Sith?

Well, the Sith Code as written doesn't, strictly speaking, direct you towards the Dark Side. It's easy to go that way, depending on your interpretation of the third and especially fifth line as you could use that to justify a lot, but it is definitely possible to abide by the Sith Code and stay Light Side.

I'd play that person as being fiercely individualistic, humanist, and equally as compassionate as the Jedi you might compare them to. They'd believe that instead of solving peoples' problems, they should empower people to solve their own problems. Rather than be a monastic monk like the Jedi, they'd seek out connections and things to care for, to fight for, because passion is strength and the more you care about the stronger you are. They'd believe in the ability of regular people to do amazing things because they set their mind to it and they care about it, and damn anyone who says otherwise.

Play Kamina. Be the one who believes in people when no one else will. Show everyone what they can do if they really care, and never, ever back down, because who the hell do they think you are?

JusticeZero
2014-12-15, 01:32 AM
I'd say it is not possible full stop to be a "Light side Sith", but don't think that it actually matters.
You get power from things like "I want to use a defensive power, I will harness fear!" "I need to damage something, I will use anger!" "I want to help someone else, I will use love!" "I want to go faster, I will harness joy!" ALL of those will get you a Dark Side Point.
The codes themself are a sort've odd Lawful/Chaotic dichotomy, and don't address good or evil; the canon, however, reads like propaganda written by the winners of a grey vs. grey war. The Jedi have done a lot of very shady things, even in the canon, and the Sith Code is full of things that most people would consider positive.
As a result, you should be able to make a "Good Sith", because the cosmology from a more neutral standpoint is one where the magic system mainly cares about your Lawful/Chaotic score, thus permitting Chaotic Good. That said, all the games tend to conflate Light/Dark with Good/Evil on a lot of things. When poking around on SWTOR, I see a lot of DSP choices that don't actually violate anything in the Jedi Code and don't actually follow the Sith Code; similarly, lots of choices offer up Light side points even though they fly in the face of the Code.

A Light Sith would be a hard core Dark Side force user because they will be absolutely bubbling over with Dark Side power, because they do a lot of things like channeling their joy, making and helping close friends, and raging against oppression and evil in favor of freedom in the manner of an activist. All of that stuff will push them to the Dark Side, and none of it will make them a bad person.
I was actually reading this on the subject today. (http://screenrant.com/star-wars-villains-jedi-sith-history/)

azoetia
2014-12-15, 01:43 AM
I agree that it wouldn't be possible during the Rule of Two era, but during the KOTOR era it's not just possible but has probably happened at least a few times. The Sith code is all about drawing strength from your passions. The issue that people face in the Star Wars universe is absolute power corrupting absolutely, as one's passions are a critical avenue for corruption when one possesses the power of the Force.

A very reasonable and sensible person could be a light-sided Sith Lord. Lana Beniko, for example, doesn't exactly seem light sided, but she at least seems grey because of her even-keel personality and restraint. I would use her as a good example from which to begin building such a character. Her passion is in civic duty, preserving and advancing her society. She indulges in this passion without letting it take control over her. Darth Marr has the same passion for preserving the Empire, but it leads him to a far darker place than Lana. I'm not aware of anything she's done that was any more shady than what the Jedi have.

BWR
2014-12-15, 02:20 AM
I'd say it's not impossible (though highly unlikely) for someone trained and raised in the Sith traditions to turn to the Light Side. Thing is, they'd end up being pretty much the same as a Jedi and would reject the Sith ideals. The extreme selfishness and need to dominate that is the core of the Sith is entirely at odds with the sublimation of the self and attempt at harmony with the Universe that is the focus of the Jedi. Light and Dark aren't so much about good and evil, it's more balance and imbalance, attuning yourself to the flow of the universe or trying to force it (ha) to do what you want, about accepting and adapting or trying to dominate it. Feelings cloud your judgement and unrestrained passion as the Sith preach it is basically selfishness. I suppose a believer in the Sith code could conceivably come to the heretical conclusion that the truest strength is surrender and acceptance rather than conflict and dominance but you'd have to do some really twisty thinking to believe that the Sith code can be interpreted this way. Not that twisted thinking is a problem for nuts.

I really don't like the 'gray Jedi' nonsense. IME, every single one is basically an excuse for someone to do Dark stuff like lightning blasting people but they don't want to be evil. It's the SW version of "I'm not evil I'm CN".

Vitruviansquid
2014-12-15, 03:38 AM
There are force-users in the Star Wars universe who are told to be Jedi, but who become Sith, right?

Wouldn't there be force-users in the Star Wars universe who are also told to be Sith, but then become Jedi?

Maybe someone trained by Sith, but who somehow winds up seeing it as violent and counterproductive for some reason. Their beliefs would now be closer to the Light Side, but for one reason or another, other Sith haven't killed or expelled the character yet.

JusticeZero
2014-12-15, 03:41 AM
I'd say it's not impossible (though highly unlikely) for someone trained and raised in the Sith traditions to turn to the Light Side. Thing is, they'd end up being pretty much the same as a Jedi and would reject the Sith ideals. The extreme selfishness and need to dominate that is the core of the Sith is entirely at odds with the sublimation of the self and attempt at harmony with the Universe that is the focus of the Jedi.And see, this is how the propaganda reads. There is nothing in the core Sith beliefs that demands selfishness; it's about being passionate and trying to change things. Go look at all of the people protesting any of the several social injustices of the day; every single protester and activist there is following the Sith code. What they are doing is indeed the epitome of the Dark Side.
It's just that the Sith Code doesn't exist in a vacuum. The order itself has a lot of jerks in it right now. They have some good reasons to be angry, mind you. The Jedi, as an organization, is also pretty thoroughly evil in a lot of ways, but they're the ones that are connected to the side that gets to write the history.

Light and Dark aren't so much about good and evil, it's more balance and imbalance, attuning yourself to the flow of the universe or trying to force it (ha) to do what you want, about accepting and adapting or trying to dominate it.... a believer in the Sith code could conceivably come to the heretical conclusion that the truest strength is surrender and acceptance rather than conflict and dominance but you'd have to do some really twisty thinking to believe that the Sith code can be interpreted this way.We're in agreement on that point at least, which is why I find "Light Side Sith" and "Grey jedi" to both be a mess. The former is a severe mess of dysfunctional theology, and the latter is just someone who agrees that the Jedi Code requires certain things, which they just don't want to do.

Also, there is nothing unreasonable about even a blackhearted Sith adopting the Light Side - the Dark Side is said to be the fast and easy way - but the flip side of that is that the Light Side can be seen as a sort of Magicarp Power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagikarpPower), which a long-planning Sith might find appealing.

Jendekit
2014-12-15, 10:39 AM
I don't think that a Light-Side Sith is an impossibility. I think it's pretty much an impossibility after the Rule of Two stuff, but in the Old Republic Era I think it could work. It would depend very much on the character of the sith's master; the master would need to value results and suchlike above methods. I think, for the most part, the Light Side Sith Warrior and Inquisitor in Star Wars: The Old Republic are quite good stories and versions of how that might play out.

Spoilers for Star Wars: The Old Republic Inquisitor Story-line below:

Essentially, after the Inquisitor defends themselves against their master's assassination attempt and kills her you need to gather more power because *reasons* and the way you go about it is by binding and utilizing the power of ancient ghosts. Pretty much, the dark side option is force them to serve you, the light side option is convince them too

If they can survive the brainwashing of the Sith Academy, there's nothing inherently "evil" about the Sith. The issue is that people don't often have the willpower to sustain themselves against the allure of the Dark Side if they don't use the force in a somewhat less "loose" manner.

I think it'd be totally possible to have a Light Side Sith Archivist who believes the Sith Code is correct, but believes that passion doesn't necessarily mean anger, rage, fear, etc. It could be conviction or love (cheesy, but this is Star Wars). They might also not act in a evil way. It would be difficult to do, but it definitely could be done.


Edit: Realized I didn't actually address the question.

Aisling Aonar: Light Side Sith Ambassador, Sith Lord, Apprentice to the Heretic - Darth Grathan

Aisling was taken from her family as a child to become the apprentice of Darth Grathan on Drommund Kass. Grathan was largely laissez-faire regarding her education, beyond the tenants of the Sith Code, which she took too quickly. Aisling soon realized that, in a community of such tension and fear as the Sith Empire under Darth Vitiate, people often responded better to a kind ear than to bared teeth, as there is always someone scarier, but rarely someone willing to listen. In the beginning, her methods were driven by her desire to impress Grathan, and impress him she did, not with her methods, but with her results. That wasn't to say that Grathan didn't take notice of her peculiar way of interacting with her subordinates, but when he noticed that there were far more people willing to support her in a pinch, than his other, rather more stereotypical apprentice, he began to become curious. He began to watch her closely as she matured in her power and her understanding of the Sith Philosophy, and came to understand that her sympathy concealed not weakness, but an indomitable strength. Love her, and she will move mountains for you. Harm those she loves, and she will drop those mountains on you. When Darth Grathan was eventually killed and his position taken by a rival Sith Lord, Aisling began to plot against him, knowing that, with the power granted to her by the title Darth, she could build her influence throughout the Empire, until, eventually, the Sith Code would be understood not as a weapon of anger, but as a tool by which one can gain one's freedom, as it should be.

Back-story done, moving on:
She would be quiet and reserved, often holding her comments till the end while among other Sith, wary of their spontaneous rages. She would try to fly under the radar, as best she could, in order to avoid the attention of Sith who might take offense to her considerably more open minded viewpoint. She would cultivate allies in every reach of life, allowing them certain latitudes when possible, in order to reinforce herself against a more immediately powerful Sith's challenge. Her goal would be to fix the Empire because "The Empire will be destroyed by the Republic, because we will destroy ourselves. The Sith must change, they must develop, and they must embrace a different way of practicing the Code. As long as we embrace the Dark Side to find our passions, we will always find ourselves at odds with the Republic, and that is a war which we cannot win."

I like Aisling more than the NPC that I had, may I use her?

Jay R
2014-12-15, 12:22 PM
If you want to play that kind of game, go ahead, but why would you use Star Wars to simulate something inconsistent with Star Wars?

Scyrner
2014-12-15, 02:52 PM
I like Aisling more than the NPC that I had, may I use her?

Certainly, go right ahead! Lemme know how it goes, I'd be interested to be kept in the loop

Jendekit
2014-12-15, 03:16 PM
Do you have a specific Darth name in mind or should I make one for use in my game?

kardar233
2014-12-15, 03:31 PM
If you want to play that kind of game, go ahead, but why would you use Star Wars to simulate something inconsistent with Star Wars?

Because Star Wars itself is very inconsistent with what constitutes Light and Dark. I'm sure there's evidence to support JusticeZero and BWR's interpretations that the Light Side is more like D&D's Law than Good, but most of what I've seen displays Light as solidly Good and Dark as solidly Evil, with the Law and Chaos dichotomy begin a product of the doctrines of the Jedi and Sith rather than being directly sourced from the Force. In that case a Light Side Sith would be a theologically consistent Chaotic Good.

Jay R
2014-12-15, 04:02 PM
Because Star Wars itself is very inconsistent with what constitutes Light and Dark. I'm sure there's evidence to support JusticeZero and BWR's interpretations that the Light Side is more like D&D's Law than Good, but most of what I've seen displays Light as solidly Good and Dark as solidly Evil, with the Law and Chaos dichotomy begin a product of the doctrines of the Jedi and Sith rather than being directly sourced from the Force. In that case a Light Side Sith would be a theologically consistent Chaotic Good.

Is this a random guess, or do you have any evidence that the Dark Lords of the Sith aren't inherently dark?

Here's my evidence for stating that the Sith are inherently connected to the Dark Side. It's the start of the definition of the Sith, from the official website:
Sith
An ancient order of Force-wielders devoted to the dark side, ... (http://www.starwars.com/databank/sith)

From the movies-
Luke: Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.

Obi-wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.

The Emperor: Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

So what's your evidence. Do you have any evidence from any movie or other official source that there is any way to become a Sith Lord other than turning to the dark side?

kardar233
2014-12-15, 04:39 PM
I'm not saying that the Sith Lords aren't Dark, as historically they have been universally. I'm saying that the association of Light (and thus Good) with Law is a product of the Jedi Order, and that similarly the association of Dark (and Evil) with Chaos is a product of the Sith.

The Sith code that Jendekit posted at the top of the page isn't necessarily a moral stance; it doesn't dictate Good or Evil. It just presents an individualist, passionate method of living your life as a counterpoint to the Jedi way. It's true that every Sith we've heard of has been some kind of Dark monster or another, but that doesn't necessarily follow from the Sith Code. I therefore say it is theoretically possible to follow the Sith Code as written but be a good person and thus Light.

JusticeZero
2014-12-15, 05:06 PM
Right, it mostly then becomes a question of whether the Dark Side is evil, and the fact that the Sith Code is NOT evil is an artifact, or whether the Dark Side is chaotic in tune with the Code, and the evil of the organization is an organizational quirk.
As far as the code equalling evil, as noted, if you were to talk to say, modern anti-slavery activists trying to overcome bureaucratic inertia to change the law to make it easier to prosecute slavers when they are trying to kidnap and traffic people.. you will find that every single one of them is a perfect model of the Sith Code, full blast.
The code isn't at all evil. But organizational cultures can become toxic under a variety of situations. Given that both organizations have shifted over history in various ways, with the codes being relatively stable, I am led to believe that it is a situation where there is a harmony vs. passion dichotomy in the magic system, which the two relative organizations adapt to to stay within tolerances for their respective sides, but then the organization surrounding that effort would administratively migrate here or there morally within that.
The places we normally see the Sith menacing the Jedi are, after all, points where historically, the Jedi had recently finished kicking their puppy in nasty and corrupt ways and done horrible things to them.. it's like demonizing bees for chasing someone and starting the cameras rolling right after the victim had hit the nest with a stick and tossed the stick to the side. "Omagerd, the people we *cough* tried to slaughter in a mass genocide for daring to secede *cough* have raised an army and are attacking us! They are pure evil and powered by greed!"

Jendekit
2014-12-15, 08:57 PM
I asked some friends of mine this question, and one response was the following (paraphrased):

The hardest part with the Sith Code in playing a light sider is the first part, "Peace is lie" but there are ways of interpreting it to where it can work. One way would be to play them as a cynical individual, they believe that no matter how hard people try, there will always be conflict. That having been said, he is still a caring person that is willing to use his gifts to help others.

Another way of interpreting that line, which is used in the Sith Inquisitor storyline, is in reference to a means rather than an end.
"Peace is a noble goal, but it's not a means to an end."
"So what you're saying is, peace is a lie?"
"When it comes to making real change, yes...I guess I am."

As for the rest of the code, think of a Chaotic Good D&D Barbarian. A devout believer in individual freedoms being what is best for people, and also willing and capable of utilizing their emotions to help others.

(For those unfamiliar with the D&D barbarian class, the core class mechanic is a short term buff that enhances their strength, constitution, and ability to resist mind influencing affects, but at the cost of a small hit to their ability to avoid incoming attacks and when it ends they are tired out for the rest of the encounter. The name of this buff is Rage. Fluff-wise, I have always seen the barbarian rage as a cold rage. Whereas most sith use a hot rage to fuel their abilities, the barbarian rage is more a Tranquil Fury (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TranquilFury). It isn't the screaming, raging fury. It is instead the state where you become so infuriated, that you are calm.)

Jay R
2014-12-15, 09:00 PM
None of which changes the fact that the definition of the Sith begins, "An ancient order of Force-wielders devoted to the dark side, ..."

I asked for a citation - any quote from any official source, to put up against this. I've gotten lots of words, but no source at all.

If you want to change the definition of the Sith from what it is to something else, own up to it and admit you're changing it.

kardar233
2014-12-15, 09:11 PM
None of which changes the fact that the definition of the Sith begins, "An ancient order of Force-wielders devoted to the dark side, ..."

I asked for a citation - any quote from any official source, to put up against this. I've gotten lots of words, but no source at all.

If you want to change the definition of the Sith from what it is to something else, own up to it and admit you're changing it.

I'm not denying that the Sith Order have been devoted to the Dark Side. I am saying that the Sith Code as written does not specifically promote or indicate a Dark Side leaning, and so it is possible to play a Light Side character who abides by the Sith Code.

Jay R
2014-12-15, 09:40 PM
I'm not denying that the Sith Order have been devoted to the Dark Side. I am saying that the Sith Code as written does not specifically promote or indicate a Dark Side leaning, and so it is possible to play a Light Side character who abides by the Sith Code.

Sure, she can abide by the Sith Code. She could likewise abide by the Boy Scout Oath without joining the Boy Scouts, or swear an oath of fealty without being a knight, or boldly go where no one has gone before without joining Starfleet. So what?

But she is not a member of the Sith unless she is part of "An ancient order of Force-wielders devoted to the dark side, ..." [emphasis added.]

azoetia
2014-12-15, 09:45 PM
I'm not denying that the Sith Order have been devoted to the Dark Side. I am saying that the Sith Code as written does not specifically promote or indicate a Dark Side leaning, and so it is possible to play a Light Side character who abides by the Sith Code.

In addition, a graduate of the Sith Academy on Korriban could pass the trials while remaining light-sided, defying all attempts at corruption while still succeeding in his or her objectives. Or turn to the light side later in life like Darth Gravid did, intending to reshape and redefine the Sith in order to ensure their survival. There are a number of in-universe ways to make that happen, some of which having been explored in EU materials like SWTOR and the Darth Plagueis novel. I would say that even though the definition of the Sith Order being a dark side-using tradition is accurate, in a huge, messy galaxy full of individuals with their own motivations, personalities, and talents, anything can happen, especially in the KOTOR era when there were thousands of Sith lords running around. If someone follows the Sith code and has been declared a Sith, being light-sided doesn't change anything, unless that person chooses stop identifying as Sith or someone else can takes that title away.

gom jabbarwocky
2014-12-15, 09:47 PM
Ai-yi-yi, how is it even possible to have an argument about moral relativism in a fictional universe where morality is literally black and white?

Then again, I'm also the guy who pretends the prequel trilogy never happened, which makes it a lot easier from where I'm standing to say that the Jedi are good and the Dark Side is bad. It's hard to argue that when it is established in the PT that the Jedi Order is a weird cult of child abductors supporting a corrupt system of government who end up leading armies of disposable people into war despite preaching respect for all forms of life.

On the other hand, if you want a "light-side" Sith, I can recommend something that I did for my SW game a few years back...In SWd20, you rack up Dark Side Points if you do bad stuff. However, you aren't considered truly "Dark" unless you've racked up more DSPs than you Wisdom score (IIRC), and even then, if you can make a crazy high Will Save, you can stave off going "Dark" for quite some time. So I just made a character min-maxed with an insanely high Will Save, so despite racking up DSPs, whenever someone sensed him in the Force, he only ever registered as "tainted". The PCs just thought he was a 'grey' Jedi - until he finally jumped off the deep end.

Also, the Sith Code doesn't say anything about evil, because, naturally, if you're a Sith, you don't see yourself as evil. The Sith Code isn't some kind of endorsement for badness, but it is a justification for it. People don't follow the Sith Code to become evil - they take up the Sith Code after they've already become evil.

azoetia
2014-12-15, 09:52 PM
Also, the Sith Code doesn't say anything about evil, because, naturally, if you're a Sith, you don't see yourself as evil. The Sith Code isn't some kind of endorsement for badness, but it is a justification for it. People don't follow the Sith Code to become evil - they take up the Sith Code after they've already become evil.

Or they're brought up against their will under the code. There are a lot of possibilities to explore.

gom jabbarwocky
2014-12-15, 10:02 PM
Or they're brought up against their will under the code. There are a lot of possibilities to explore.

I suppose. That does bring up some interesting explorations of a theme - say, a character that rejects the Sith Code out of rebellion from it. Probably still not a good character, though, at least morally speaking. There are a lot a different ways to be bad, and just because you are opposed to the Sith won't make you a good guy.

Could make for an interesting ancillary villain in a SW game. The enemy of my enemy is my friend? Not always....

JusticeZero
2014-12-15, 10:06 PM
The hardest part with the Sith Code in playing a light sider is the first part, "Peace is lie"..Often referenced, again, by activists when they start complaining about acceptance of broken systems and the dangers of being lulled into a sense of security or comfort by a flawed status quo.

Fluff-wise, I have always seen the barbarian rage as a cold rage. Whereas most sith use a hot rage to fuel their abilities, the barbarian rage is more a Tranquil Fury (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TranquilFury). It isn't the screaming, raging fury. It is instead the state where you become so infuriated, that you are calm.)[/SPOILER]
Sith are often shown adopting an outwardly tranquil appearance when using their emotion-powered abilities.

As for the other bits, what do you do with a Force-using character who is pure Good on a stick to everybody and very compassionate, but every time they decide to use the Force, they say "I'm using my <relevant emotion>" (immediate DSP for doing that), or fling lots and lots of Force Lightning around at non-living targets to try to minimize violence? (again, DSP for shooting sparks regardless of anything else) Those are both situations similar to shifting someone's alignment in D&D for using Deathsight, a spell that lets you see how badly injured people around you are, as for whatever reason, casting the spell was designated as an [evil] act which can cause a character to Fall if they have alignment restrictions and which can negatively impact their alignment.
Both of the things I mentioned are explicitly Dark Side actions; indeed, they are pretty much THE primary Dark Side acts you can take. Making them suddenly reverse all of their motives is very glaringly awful; "Jane was a kind and charitable person! Then she descended into the depths of compassion, love, and protectiveness too much, and spontaneously started kicking puppies for no apparent reason!" but that is exactly how many people would demand that it be played.

Jendekit
2014-12-15, 10:16 PM
Sure, she can abide by the Sith Code. She could likewise abide by the Boy Scout Oath without joining the Boy Scouts, or swear an oath of fealty without being a knight, or boldly go where no one has gone before without joining Starfleet. So what?

But she is not a member of the Sith unless she is part of "An ancient order of Force-wielders devoted to the dark side, ..." [emphasis added.]

If this is not the case then I apologize, but it is sounding to me like the opinion that you have is that if you are a member of the Sith Empire, that you graduated from the Academy at Korriban, then you are immediately a dark side force user, that the possibility for outliers, mavericks, or those that want to change the parts of their society that they do not agree with, does not exist or if they do exist them they are not Sith.

That is a rather shallow viewpoint that in my opinion leaves little room for interesting story possibilities.

JusticeZero
2014-12-15, 10:21 PM
Well, when you graduate at Korriban, you are a Dark Side user because that's what they teach, much in the same way that if you train at a hard style Karate dojo, you will not leave as a Tai Chi expert. There is nobody there who can or will teach you Light Side techniques. Those require outside study elsewhere that you won't get at the place that has the power to declare you to be Sith - Korriban is also functioning as the licensing authority in this case.
Additionally, much of the debate revolves around the question of whether a Sith even needs to abandon the Dark Side to become a hero; having spent time around real-life moral exemplars who all fit the Sith Code to a T and who horribly violate the Jedi Code on a daily basis, I would disagree with that premise. Literally, at least one IRL activist fighting for a cause that pretty much everybody would consider to be Good and a wonderful person has commented about how "I have to channel my anger and concentrate on my rage to give me strength to go that extra mile for the cause.." Also, I have a book on pragmatic techniques for nonviolent social activists, and it has tips in it on how to fuel and sustain your anger, fear, and rage so that you can channel it into doing good works.

azoetia
2014-12-15, 11:06 PM
Well, when you graduate at Korriban, you are a Dark Side user because that's what they teach, much in the same way that if you train at a hard style Karate dojo, you will not leave as a Tai Chi expert. There is nobody there who can or will teach you Light Side techniques. Those require outside study elsewhere that you won't get at the place that has the power to declare you to be Sith - Korriban is also functioning as the licensing authority in this case.

That depends on whether the light side and dark side are really techniques or simply approaches; as far as I know it's the latter. The Sith make a big deal about not being limited like the Jedi. If you can efficiently accomplish your trials without resorting to greed and sadism then the Sith overseers won't care, which is why you can graduate from the Sith Academy in SWTOR as a light-leaning Sith. Sometimes doing vicious things just doesn't work or isn't practical. Sith often sabotage their own plans or prevent their own victories by losing reason and self-control, and sometimes other Sith come along and objectively think, "Well, that's pretty stupid and self-defeating. Let's not do that."

I don't see any reason to believe that emotional use of the Force is dark in itself. I've always viewed the dark side as being the result of corruption, not technique. When you're ruled by your passions and you have the power of a minor god to see them come to pass, you're very corruptible. It's easy to go too far, to start with fighting for justice and but ultimately end up ruling with a callous, iron fist. Start by trying to save people but eventually decide they either can't or don't deserve to be saved and the only thing left is to kill them all. Start by trying to obtain the things you enjoy in life, then find yourself trying to conquer everything, and eventually find nothing sates you so you try to destroy the galaxy. But I don't think that experience has to be 100% universal.

Not saying that light Sith are common, just that it's possible within the established lore, and that there's at least one Sith who turned light without abandoning the mantle of Sith, and others who come across as light in regards to their behaviour.

JusticeZero
2014-12-15, 11:46 PM
The Sith Code is all about channeling emotions, the canonical Sith are always talking about emotional Force use, and every SW RPG I have played, using your emotions for Force powers gives a small boost to that use and an immediate Dark Side point. The Jedi forbid romance, as well as things like anger. That seems to indicate that emotions are tied to Dark Side stuff..
It is, additionally, not a universal and instant thing to automatically assume that a character will instantly be corrupted by power the instant they go over a few DSP. It could just as easily be argued that when a Force user purges their passion too completely, that they cease to empathize with or care for others, and omnicidally begins to carry out their goals in tranquil peace and confidence that they are fulfilling the will of the Force.

Friv
2014-12-16, 12:49 AM
The Sith Code is all about channeling emotions, the canonical Sith are always talking about emotional Force use, and every SW RPG I have played, using your emotions for Force powers gives a small boost to that use and an immediate Dark Side point. The Jedi forbid romance, as well as things like anger. That seems to indicate that emotions are tied to Dark Side stuff..
It is, additionally, not a universal and instant thing to automatically assume that a character will instantly be corrupted by power the instant they go over a few DSP. It could just as easily be argued that when a Force user purges their passion too completely, that they cease to empathize with or care for others, and omnicidally begins to carry out their goals in tranquil peace and confidence that they are fulfilling the will of the Force.

It's all a mess, of course, because hundreds of authors with their own ideas have left contradictory stamps everywhere, but the rough theory of the Jedi is that emotion is okay, but you can't care too strongly or else you start to value some things more than other things, which leads to creating tiers of people, which leads to hurting people in order to help the people you like, etc, etc. The Force is about having a connection to all living things, being a part of the universe, and the Dark Side is about denying that connection in order to focus on your own wants and needs. The average person can do that safely, more or less, but the Dark Side is also a corrosive drug, so the more you give in to it the harder it gets to go cold turkey.

So an actual Light Side character who followed the Sith Philosophy... well, the problem is that wanting freedom isn't the goal of the Light Side. Freedom for yourself is ultimately a kind of selfish act, especially in the context of winning it through strength and power. You're really going to have trouble balancing that with the general understanding and connection to others that the Force requires.

Arbane
2014-12-16, 12:51 AM
Play Kamina. Be the one who believes in people when no one else will. Show everyone what they can do if they really care, and never, ever back down, because who the hell do they think you are?



Additionally, much of the debate revolves around the question of whether a Sith even needs to abandon the Dark Side to become a hero; having spent time around real-life moral exemplars who all fit the Sith Code to a T and who horribly violate the Jedi Code on a daily basis, I would disagree with that premise. Literally, at least one IRL activist fighting for a cause that pretty much everybody would consider to be Good and a wonderful person has commented about how "I have to channel my anger and concentrate on my rage to give me strength to go that extra mile for the cause.." Also, I have a book on pragmatic techniques for nonviolent social activists, and it has tips in it on how to fuel and sustain your anger, fear, and rage so that you can channel it into doing good works.

I just figured it out. The the "Dark Side of the Force" is Spiral Energy.

DOWN WITH THE ANTI-SPIRAL JEDI! WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE?

(And that's when we find out the Death Star was supposed to turn into a giant robot with cool sunglasses...)

Coidzor
2014-12-16, 01:17 AM
Wait. We're retconning the existence of peaceful protest, passive resistance, and people who protest against a negative change in the status quo to being a Dark Side activity now?

Really, people?

gom jabbarwocky
2014-12-16, 01:24 AM
I think part of the problem with this debate is because if we look at the Star Wars movies, I am pretty much certain that at no point they mention "the light side of the Force." It's just "The Force."

The "Dark Side" is like an aberration of the Force, it's not that the Force as two sides, a light and dark one. There's just the Force, and if all's well and good, that's all you get. There's no light, there's no grey. Just the Force. In this sense, we might even consider the Force as being amoral.

The reason the Jedi are then seen as a force for good is, I think, more due to the fact that if you have a connection to the Force, you have a deep and intimate connection to everyone and everything around you, and you have the power to affect changes that most people can't. It's like if there's a car crash 20 miles away from me, there's nothing I can do about it so I'm not culpable for any suffering that happens there. But if Superman were in my position, and could hear what was happening and get there to prevent or alleviate that suffering, he would be culpable for failing to help those people. Force-users have a similar dilemma.

The Sith are kind of defined by the fact they use the Dark Side. It's kind of their entire ethos, and although the concept of heretic Sith is interesting... if they turn away from the Dark Side, they'll basically end up indistinguishable from Jedi. The specific dogma of the Jedi don't really matter. I think it's not that anger and passion make you evil, it's more of a Buddhist 'desire is the root of suffering' thing. So while I suppose it's possible to use anger and not turn, it's not going to get you closer to oneness and enlightenment or whatever, which is what the using the Force is all about.

Granted, this is all me just spinning my own theories. I'm sure there are other, no less legitimate, explanations.

kardar233
2014-12-16, 01:52 AM
I think the problem we're having is that we're all working on different definitions of what constitutes the Light and Dark sides. Because my Star Wars experience comes primarily from the Knights of the Old Republic games I see the Light and Dark sides as directly corresponding to Good and Evil, with the issue of passion and dispassion as a matter of methodology. That interpretation allows me to advocate for Light Side Sith on the grounds that they use the passionate "Sith" style for good/Light Side ends.

~EDIT~

The Sith are kind of defined by the fact they use the Dark Side. It's kind of their entire ethos, and although the concept of heretic Sith is interesting... if they turn away from the Dark Side, they'll basically end up indistinguishable from Jedi. The specific dogma of the Jedi don't really matter. I think it's not that anger and passion make you evil, it's more of a Buddhist 'desire is the root of suffering' thing. So while I suppose it's possible to use anger and not turn, it's not going to get you closer to oneness and enlightenment or whatever, which is what the using the Force is all about.

I disagree. A Sith who turns from the Dark Side may still see the world in terms of individualism, of personal connections and believe in that and use that as the source of their action, and this is significantly different from the collectivist ascetic path of the Jedi. This is exactly what I was advocating in my first post where I described a Light Side Sith Kamina.

JusticeZero
2014-12-16, 02:09 AM
Wait. We're retconning the existence of peaceful protest, passive resistance, and people who protest against a negative change in the status quo to being a Dark Side activity now?

Really, people?
Not retconning it at all. Just stating the facts, flat out. In any of the SW RPGs I have ever played, if I were to RP any of the peaceful protestors I have ever known IRL verbatim as a Force Sensitive character, I would have to turn them in to the GM for maxing out on Dark Side points within a month while being a pacifist and being admired by the Paladin the entire time, by RAW and Yoda's interpretations.
The Sith Code (not necessarily any given Sith, but the Code itself) has a certain mindset. Peaceful protestors have the exact same mindset. That mindset is more or less diametrically opposed to the restrictions followed by the Jedi. Because "Harmony with the universe" starts sounding a lot like "Acceptance of the status quo", which is always a favorite thing for repressive governments to have its citizens believing in - stop the troublemakers, but never question the system. Activists are against that by definition, and they end up adopting the same oppositional system.

azoetia
2014-12-16, 09:19 AM
People are definitely coming into this conversation from different perspectives on the lore. I largely agree with kardar233 here, and find Scyrner's character Aisling completely believable, given her time period and circumstances.

Personally, I hate the way dark side points work in Star Wars RPGs. It doesn't come across as meshing with established lore to me, so I've always ignored that mechanic entirely and handled the dark side by feeling out situations.

gom jabbarwocky
2014-12-16, 09:51 AM
I disagree. A Sith who turns from the Dark Side may still see the world in terms of individualism, of personal connections and believe in that and use that as the source of their action, and this is significantly different from the collectivist ascetic path of the Jedi.

An interesting perspective, but my interpretation doesn't leave room for that. Being connected to the Force means that the character has an empathic connection to all life in the galaxy. With that in mind, I have a hard time believing that a benevolent Force-user would not ascribe to a philosophy of collective harmony that downplays individualism.

It's not that I don't think that in SW you can't have characters who use their anger and passion to affect positive change. Leia, Han, and Chewbacca, I have no doubt, were empowered at various points to fight the Empire due to their righteous anger at the injustices perpetrated by an evil government. But none of them were Jedi, so they didn't have the burden of that connection to deal with.

Granted, one's mileage may vary.


Personally, I hate the way dark side points work in Star Wars RPGs. It doesn't come across as meshing with established lore to me, so I've always ignored that mechanic entirely and handled the dark side by feeling out situations.

This is fair. My personal experience has differed, though. I went into a SW RPG thinking the DSP system was stupid, but when I actually played the game I never came across a situation where I thought it was pointlessly arbitrary or counter to what we see in the movies. I just figured that SW has a rigid morality, and the people that live in that universe don't have to deal with moral ambiguity like we do in reality. Trying to apply real-world ethics to SW is like applying real-world economics to D&D. It's not worth the headache, at least not in my experience.

But if that breaks someone's suspension of disbelief, hey, it's all made up stories about space wizard-samurais in the past-future anyway. One can believe whatever they want about it.

Red Fel
2014-12-16, 10:32 AM
I want to engage the Sith-is-Spiral side of the discussion because, as silly as it seems, it makes an incredibly good point.

Spiral Energy, according to Gurren Lagann, is the passionate, burning energy that drives mankind forward, the power of evolution and DNA, that harnessed momentum that lets one KICK REASON TO THE CURB and GO BEYOND THE IMPOSSIBLE. It is quite literally harnessed, raw passion, the stuff on which the Sith thrive. It is an energy that refuses to be restrained or disciplined, that explodes destructively beyond all reason and expectation.

Similarly, the Jedi desire to preserve everything, to prevent the explosive disruption of that energy, is very parallel to the Anti-Spiral notion that an explosion of Spiral Energy would ultimately annihilate all existence. It's a fair comparison to say that the Jedi focus on subduing emotion and maintaining balance tracks closely with the Anti-Spiral concept of barring evolution and limiting the expansion of life in the universe, the notion of stagnation yielding preservation.

BUT!

Light Side powers are subtle. They are gentle. Light Side users wield the Force in ways to subtly influence events and people, not to violently disrupt the status quo. That's why they have Force Shove instead of Force Lightning, for example. One is delicate, precise, and utilitarian; one straight-up messes dudes up in the face.

Spiral Energy is destructive. There is no question of that. It is explosive, and raw, and colossal; it drives planets and galaxies, it erupts in glorious green flame, it IS THE DRILL THAT WILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS. There is nothing subtle about Spiral Energy. It is not smooth, or manipulative, or gentle. Spiral Energy isn't a Force Shove, it's a WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM KICK! Spiral Energy isn't a Jedi Mind Trick, it's a GIGA DRILL BREAKER! It bears more similarity with the Dark Side than the Light.

So while I could accept the notion of a Good Sith (who would basically be Kamina, or even Simon), I don't see how they could wield those powers associated with the Light Side of the Force. Team Gurren has all the subtlety and gentle touch of hurling a galaxy at a giant robot as if it were a shuriken.

Jay R
2014-12-16, 12:50 PM
If this is not the case then I apologize, but it is sounding to me like the opinion that you have is that if you are a member of the Sith Empire, that you graduated from the Academy at Korriban, then you are immediately a dark side force user, that the possibility for outliers, mavericks, or those that want to change the parts of their society that they do not agree with, does not exist or if they do exist them they are not Sith.

No, I have made no statement about an empire, Korriban, ouliers, mavericks, or wanting to change sopciety. All I've said ts that the Sith are defined as "An ancient order of Force-wielders devoted to the dark side, ...," (emphasis added) according to the official website.


That is a rather shallow viewpoint that in my opinion leaves little room for interesting story possibilities.

First, it's a not a "viewpoint", it's citation.

Second, I have said, in clear, unambiguous terms, "If you want to change the definition of the Sith from what it is to something else, own up to it and admit you're changing it."

This cannot be fairly or accurately characterized as leaving out story possibilities.

JusticeZero
2014-12-16, 12:59 PM
That's pretty much how I interpreted it. People keep asserting that DS is raw evil, then defending the systems that would wither the nonviolent protesters into shriveled monsters then take them away from their players in days.
Seriously, nobody has explained how to respond to characters whose entire attitude and M. O. reads something like "The Examples are innocent, and the system is rigged against them! First I need to counsel them that they need to nurture their rage and anger. Then I need to concentrate on making sure that I can sustain my rage. I am going to get a meeting with someone in charge and I have to be able to draw on my anger. Then we are going to need to channel our anger to get enough energy to prepare a non violent protest. Some of us will be arrested, and we have to passive-aggressively make things hard on them and use their actions to inspire more rage.." "They will ask you to peacefully let the system work. They lie, they just want to keep doing what they are doing wrong. Focus on the struggle. Sometimes, you might have to stop and look back at things so you can get angry enough to have the strength to carry on. You need that strength so we can smash these chains of oppression and help right these injustices! "
From the account above, would you categorize them as more Jedi like light or Sith dark? Because that is what protesters are taught. Apparently it's a bad idea to harass a protest line too badly, because Force Lightning isn't off the table.

Coidzor
2014-12-16, 02:04 PM
Not retconning it at all. Just stating the facts, flat out. In any of the SW RPGs I have ever played, if I were to RP any of the peaceful protestors I have ever known IRL verbatim as a Force Sensitive character, I would have to turn them in to the GM for maxing out on Dark Side points within a month while being a pacifist and being admired by the Paladin the entire time, by RAW and Yoda's interpretations.
The Sith Code (not necessarily any given Sith, but the Code itself) has a certain mindset. Peaceful protestors have the exact same mindset. That mindset is more or less diametrically opposed to the restrictions followed by the Jedi. Because "Harmony with the universe" starts sounding a lot like "Acceptance of the status quo", which is always a favorite thing for repressive governments to have its citizens believing in - stop the troublemakers, but never question the system. Activists are against that by definition, and they end up adopting the same oppositional system.

My god, opposing tyranny, injustice, and a disruption of harmony by a tyrannical Darksider makes one into a Darksider by those rules? It's a wonder Luke wasn't eating babies by Empire.

JusticeZero
2014-12-16, 05:39 PM
Care to address the point I actually made then? Specifically, from the narrative above, in a SW game, is that a Light or Dark side character? If Light, how long will they stay Light, presuming they always champion the needy? Noting that the narrative actually contains a paraphrased form of "Peace is a lie... Through passion, I gain strength.."
Explain your stance. If you cannot defend your argument, you aren't entitled to it.

kardar233
2014-12-16, 07:28 PM
I want to engage the Sith-is-Spiral side of the discussion because, as silly as it seems, it makes an incredibly good point.

Spiral Energy, according to Gurren Lagann, is the passionate, burning energy that drives mankind forward, the power of evolution and DNA, that harnessed momentum that lets one KICK REASON TO THE CURB and GO BEYOND THE IMPOSSIBLE. It is quite literally harnessed, raw passion, the stuff on which the Sith thrive. It is an energy that refuses to be restrained or disciplined, that explodes destructively beyond all reason and expectation.

Similarly, the Jedi desire to preserve everything, to prevent the explosive disruption of that energy, is very parallel to the Anti-Spiral notion that an explosion of Spiral Energy would ultimately annihilate all existence. It's a fair comparison to say that the Jedi focus on subduing emotion and maintaining balance tracks closely with the Anti-Spiral concept of barring evolution and limiting the expansion of life in the universe, the notion of stagnation yielding preservation.

BUT!

Light Side powers are subtle. They are gentle. Light Side users wield the Force in ways to subtly influence events and people, not to violently disrupt the status quo. That's why they have Force Shove instead of Force Lightning, for example. One is delicate, precise, and utilitarian; one straight-up messes dudes up in the face.

Spiral Energy is destructive. There is no question of that. It is explosive, and raw, and colossal; it drives planets and galaxies, it erupts in glorious green flame, it IS THE DRILL THAT WILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS. There is nothing subtle about Spiral Energy. It is not smooth, or manipulative, or gentle. Spiral Energy isn't a Force Shove, it's a WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM KICK! Spiral Energy isn't a Jedi Mind Trick, it's a GIGA DRILL BREAKER! It bears more similarity with the Dark Side than the Light.

So while I could accept the notion of a Good Sith (who would basically be Kamina, or even Simon), I don't see how they could wield those powers associated with the Light Side of the Force. Team Gurren has all the subtlety and gentle touch of hurling a galaxy at a giant robot as if it were a shuriken.

I don't think that the Light Side is necessarily subtle or gentle; we simply see it that way because the people we see using the Light Side focus on subtlety and gentleness. Similarly, the Dark Side is thought of as brutal and destructive because the people that we get to see using it use it like a hammer. It's also probably because when all you have is Force Lightning, everything looks like it would be much less trouble as a crispy ruin.

However, we've seen that the Dark Side is also capable of great subtlety and constructiveness. After the original Dark Jedi were exiled to the Sith worlds after the Hundred-Year-Darkness, they used the Dark Side art later known as Sith Alchemy to crossbreed with the native Sith. That indicates that the different sides of the Force are not limited to their stereotypical uses.

To me, it seems that you could use the Light Side with all the subtlety of a GALAXY-SIZED DOOM ROBOT as long as you internally kept to the concepts that power the Light Side. One of my favourite moments of the EU is when one Jedi attunes himself with all of his friends and the planet he stands on and gives his life to Force Push a fleet of Star Destroyers halfway across the solar system. That's not subtle at all, but it was a supreme act of Light Side power.

I stand by my belief in Light Side Sith Kamina.

Coidzor
2014-12-16, 08:47 PM
Care to address the point I actually made then?

I don't really see much of a point, since you've seemed to just lay out that there's a bunch of bad writing which you've interpreted as... valid for some reason.

But, sure.


That's pretty much how I interpreted it. People keep asserting that DS is raw evil, then defending the systems that would wither the nonviolent protesters into shriveled monsters then take them away from their players in days.

Well, obviously the solution is that nonviolent protestors shouldn't be darksiders and the system is obviously broken if it'd make them into baby-eating monster NPCs in short order. So why should I defend such a patently obviously borked thing, again? I don't need to in order to view the dark side as negative and the sort of thing that leads to poor life decisions.


Seriously, nobody has explained how to respond to characters whose entire attitude and M. O. reads something like "The Examples are innocent, and the system is rigged against them! First I need to counsel them that they need to nurture their rage and anger. Then I need to concentrate on making sure that I can sustain my rage. I am going to get a meeting with someone in charge and I have to be able to draw on my anger. Then we are going to need to channel our anger to get enough energy to prepare a non violent protest. Some of us will be arrested, and we have to passive-aggressively make things hard on them and use their actions to inspire more rage.." "They will ask you to peacefully let the system work. They lie, they just want to keep doing what they are doing wrong. Focus on the struggle. Sometimes, you might have to stop and look back at things so you can get angry enough to have the strength to carry on. You need that strength so we can smash these chains of oppression and help right these injustices! "
From the account above, would you categorize them as more Jedi like light or Sith dark? Because that is what protesters are taught. Apparently it's a bad idea to harass a protest line too badly, because Force Lightning isn't off the table.

I think we have very different understandings of what rage is if you think that constructively used anger rather than destructively wasted violence constitutes such. Time and time again the Sith have demonstrated that they don't have the ability to channel their feelings constructively, so even taking into account the badly written codes, there's an element of connotation here that you're glossing over which I don't believe you should be.

Indeed, I'd characterize your argument here as a deliberate misunderstanding and twisting of historical examples in order to fit in better with the dark side than the examples we have to go on. Indeed, your argument sounds like the position of one who is about to get fed up with peaceful revolution and move on to violent revolt more than anything.

Of course, you've also characterized light side as being completely apathetic in the face of injustice, tyranny, wrong-doing, etc. which is just as flawed at the end of the day.

So, basically, apparently not only can't Star Wars writers do Star Wars, Star Wars roleplaying game writers can't either.

JusticeZero
2014-12-16, 11:54 PM
Well, lots of people are keen to say what the Dark Side and Light Side ISN'T, but you can't go with negative definitions otherwise some ridiculous stuff slips in. At some point you have to slam down some solid definitions of what is what.

Right now what I saa is that the Jedi in Canon say "Passion is bad, attachment is bad, emotion is bad" and the Sith say "Passion is good, emotion is good". Then they each have their own organizational cultures which are toxic to various degrees but work around those codes. Then the RPGs all universally say "Passion and emotion equals Dark Side". I see that the bad guys belong to an organization that could be structured many, many other ways, and likely were at other times that were less interesting. The good guys also don't have to look like they do to follow those guidelines.

Then i note that a number of the people I know and would recommend to people as moral role models follow the guidelines set out for the Sith to the letter. Obviously they aren't SITH, but they follow the philosophy and guidelines that the Sith follow in their own way - the Dark Side. They haven't turned into raving villainous maniacs. They would recognize each others' training as being philosophically similar, but for obvious reasons they would never agree with each other.

Nonetheless, they both do all the things that all of the concrete definition points I have seen designated as "The Dark Side". Both Sith and activist will, in the course of a day of working their will on the world in ethically neutral ways, rack up a number of Dark Side Points in all these systems, as well as horrify Yoda. This is not to say that the Sith are good guys; the ones we see are pretty nasty pieces of work in a toxic organizational culture. It is to say that there is nothing barring various forms of Dark Side Sith and Dark Side Force users from being good people. Beyond that, the Jedi have done some nasty things while staying and being bright and shiny Light Side, so obviously the Light Side doesn't absolutely prevent people from being evil. This means we have three independent variables, which are correlated but not dependent: "Is Jedi/Sith", "Is Light/Dark", and "Is Good/Evil". At least some of the Jedi/Good correlation can be attributed to "We won so we wrote the history and decided to gloss over the embarrassing bits". The Jedi/Light correlation is because, well, that's what their training and organizational culture is made for the purposes of reproducing. Light/Good may or may not be directly linked, but is obviously not perfectly matched, since the Jedi do things like commit genocide without falling to the Dark Side. I simply suggest that the same imperfect correlations exist on the other side.

When the two are fighting, generally you see a very angry Sith who have pushed their most angry fighters to the front. The canon tends to gloss over the reasons why the Sith are angry, but the reasons are there. It's easy to demonize Germany for charging into war while discounting the fact that treaties were starving them to death before they got angry enough at seeing kids starving in the streets to start looking for excuses to pick a fight. Doesn't justify ANY of the nastiness that comes out of it, but things do happen because of causes. In more peaceful times, the nastiness of the militarized Sith wouldn't be near as useful, and the culture of the Sith would need to be quite a bit different for them to thrive in the ways they were.

Alternately, there is just The Force, and all the talk about "Dark Side" and "Light Side" is just labels the respective churches use to smear each other, which means there's no point in tracking any of it.

WhiteShark
2014-12-17, 10:19 PM
good stuff

Just wanted to say that I think this post breaks down what you were saying exceptionally with the 'three variables' bit. I was thinking the same thing along with you in your posts, but hopefully this one should clear up any confusion others may have had.

Arbane
2014-12-20, 02:59 PM
I want to engage the Sith-is-Spiral side of the discussion because, as silly as it seems, it makes an incredibly good point.

Thank you! I figure if I can't be helpful, I can at least be amusing, but it's nice when I manage both.



Similarly, the Jedi desire to preserve everything, to prevent the explosive disruption of that energy, is very parallel to the Anti-Spiral notion that an explosion of Spiral Energy would ultimately annihilate all existence. It's a fair comparison to say that the Jedi focus on subduing emotion and maintaining balance tracks closely with the Anti-Spiral concept of barring evolution and limiting the expansion of life in the universe, the notion of stagnation yielding preservation.

And they've evidently done pretty well at it, seeing how there don't seem to have been any major social or technological changes in the galaxy between the time of the Old Republic and the movies.

OTOH, there's no evidence that the Dark Side gets to ignore the law of conservation of energy, so hopefully the Sith won't implode the universe.

Red Fel
2014-12-20, 04:46 PM
OTOH, there's no evidence that the Dark Side gets to ignore the law of conservation of energy, so hopefully the Sith won't implode the universe.

And where does Force Lightning come from? Microorganisms in the bloodstream?

Arbane
2014-12-20, 06:47 PM
And where does Force Lightning come from? Microorganisms in the bloodstream?


Please, let's not get silly, now. Let's stick to things that make scientific sense, like conjuring giant drills out of nowhere. :smallwink:

(No idea. I'm sure some Star Wars writer has tried to come up with an explanation that at least nods in the direction of actual science.)

Sith_Happens
2014-12-20, 07:17 PM
How would YOU roleplay a light sided Sith?

Depends on what you mean by "light sided." If you mean "not evil," that's just far enough from impossible for there to be four examples of it in the entire Legends EU. All of whom still very much use the Dark Side of the Force.

If you actually mean "uses the Light Side of the Force," that and the Sith code are mutually exclusive by definition.

Faily
2014-12-20, 10:51 PM
Eh, it's not like the Jedi oppose any kind of progressive thinking or social developement. That has never been said in canon, afaik. If anything, the Jedi care more to defend liberty, peace, and fight social injustice. I mean, Episode I starts off with the Jedi acting as a third party-ambassadors in a situation where one faction had blockaded an entire planet (limiting that planet and its people their freedom, also threatening peace).

The difference between Jedi and Sith is that a Jedi will always seek a peaceful solution (negotiations, peaceful protests, act as intermediaries), while a Sith is more likely to take the most efficient solution because their dogma promotes what is most convenient for them.

And Jedi don't say that emotions are bad. As Anakin Skywalker said; jedi are encouraged to love. Their philosophy teach them to love, nurture and care for all, but what they are not allowed to do is to have attachements, such as loving one more than the other... it's about balance after all. Basically, you could sum it up in Dalai Lhama's words of "if you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion". Love, but do not desire. For the Sith on the other hand, they don't believe they need to shackle themselves down with the restrictions of the Jedi, hence why their little Sith Code is a darker reflection of the Jedi Code.

The Force in Star Wars is less about Evil/Good, and more about a spiritual balance similar to what is found in some Buddhist teachings.

Arbane
2014-12-20, 11:43 PM
And Jedi don't say that emotions are bad. As Anakin Skywalker said; jedi are encouraged to love.

I'm not sure he's the best argument for the Jedi Code's effectiveness...

BWR
2014-12-21, 07:24 AM
I'm not sure he's the best argument for the Jedi Code's effectiveness...

Actually, he is. Yoda was against training him because he felt Anakin was too unstable and potentially dangerous.
Look what happened when other people, including the very 'wise' Qui-Gon decided to ignore Yoda's warning.

Anakin was too involved, too connected to people and too attached to things. To his mother, to Amidala, to his friend Palpatine and to his son. All his attachments ended in tradgedy and promoting the Dark Side but for his final redemption. Had Anakin been able to let go of his mother he wouldn't have started down the dark path by slaughtering an entire tribe of Tuskens. Had he not been attached to Padme he wouldn't have married or considered her life more important than the rest of the galaxy or ended up killing her in a fit of jealous rage. Had he not been attached to Palpatine he would not have helped the Jedi order be destroyed or killed a bunch of kids. To be fair, had he not been attached to Luke the Emperor would have won at Endor, but this was more like cleaning up his own mess than anything else but even so it shows that desperate attachment and selfishness is at odds with community and peace.
No matter what, Anakin's attachment to people was for his own benefit and he did not care how it affected others.

TheCountAlucard
2014-12-21, 11:12 AM
Had Anakin been able to let go of his mother he wouldn't have started down the dark path by slaughtering an entire tribe of Tuskens.Oh, you mean the mother he abandoned for ten years without a thought toward 'til he had premonitions about her? Y'know he might not have made his start down the dark side if Anakin and Obi-Wan had freed her years before the second movie. Hell, I'd say his problem was he wasn't attached enough. Or crappy writing. Yeah, let's go with crappy writing.


Had he not been attached to Padme he wouldn't have married or considered her life more important than the rest of the galaxy or ended up killing her in a fit of jealous rage.Admittedly it's still morning, but this is the most incoherent statement I've witnessed today. The number of people I know who have murdered their wives in a fit of jealous rage is pretty small.
No matter what, Anakin's attachment to people was for his own benefit and he did not care how it affected others.You've just topped yourself.

Faily
2014-12-21, 01:02 PM
I do seem to recall Anakin saying in Episode 2 how he often dreamed of his mother (but that he forgot her face). He was very attached to her. It was that very attachement that drove him to leave Naboo (sure, Padme tagged along, but it was contradictory to his mission) and go to Tatooine, where he would learn that his mother had been taken by the sand-people. Yes, he had had visions, but those dreams/visions were there because he still had a deep bond with her. Rather than just saving Shmi, he went on a killing spree. In his own words "every woman and child". He spared none. Anakin in this case, unable to let his mother go, so to speak (Yoda even speaks of this in Episode 3), lashes out his emotions on the Tuskens. Yes, some of them were guilty of what had happened to his mother, but I don't think we could call the children and infants accomplices to that. Yet Anakin killed them all. Anakin's murder-spree didn't even make him feel better when he confessed to Padme about it.

And no, just being married doesn't make you kill people (which isn't what BWR meant either I think). The point is that Anakin was too attached to those he loved, and he was scared of losing Padme like he lost his mother. He was frightened, and he let that fear guide his actions (if you want RL similarities, there have been cases where people have been responsible for the death of their significant other, in the fear that they were going to leave them). The moment he used the force to choke Padme was when he thought that Padme had betrayed him to the Jedi (Obi-Wan), the Jedi whom Palpatine had convinced him were corrupt and a danger.

The Jedi for a long time separated children from their parents at a very young age, to prevent them getting too attached to their parents. One of the reasons why the Council didn't want to see Anakin trained was because they meant he was too old, thus too attached to his family and would be unable to let go of worldly attachements that the Jedi aspire to do.

As Yoda said; Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Anakin acted out of fear for losing his loved ones, anger towards those he disagreed with, and hate towards those who believed betrayed him (the jedi).


I'm not sure he's the best argument for the Jedi Code's effectiveness...

Anakin stands as a good example of how one falls to the Dark Side by forgetting many of the core values of the Jedi.

goto124
2014-12-21, 08:56 PM
(if you want RL similarities, there have been cases where people have been responsible for the death of their significant other, in the fear that they were going to leave them)

Everytime I saw this sort of thing in a plot, I dismissed it as unrealistic, lame, and little more than a hand-wave that gives the murderer a flimsy reason to murder.

I might need to rethink this.

BWR
2014-12-22, 04:05 AM
Everytime I saw this sort of thing in a plot, I dismissed it as unrealistic, lame, and little more than a hand-wave that gives the murderer a flimsy reason to murder.

I might need to rethink this.

It's not too common that it goes as far as murder but a disturbingly large number of people suffer beatings and mental abuse at the hands of jealous partners.

@Alucard


Oh, you mean the mother he abandoned for ten years without a thought toward 'til he had premonitions about her? Y'know he might not have made his start down the dark side if Anakin and Obi-Wan had freed her years before the second movie. Hell, I'd say his problem was he wasn't attached enough. Or crappy writing. Yeah, let's go with crappy writing.
The mother he abandoned for 10 years because he was a kid and his mother wanted him to get out of the life of slavery. Please tell me how he had the opportunity to go and help her before he did in the movies. The Jedi aren't made of money and going around buying slaves isn't something they can do on a whim. Now say Anakin was more attached than he was. He'd be too concerned with his mother at all times, ruining his concentration, making him obsessed with finding her and helping her. Obsession isn't a good thing. Then, how is his mother more important than every other slave out there? The Jedi try to look at the big picture as well as the small picture, and wonder about the consequences of their actions.


Admittedly it's still morning, but this is the most incoherent statement I've witnessed today. The number of people I know who have murdered their wives in a fit of jealous rage is pretty small.
The number of people isn't the point, much less whoever you know. The person in question, Anakin, is the point. He was overly attached to people and this made him do all sorts of horrible things because he couldn't let go. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate. Anakin's extreme attachments and the problems they led to were right there in the movies.



You've just topped yourself.
In what way?

Arbane
2014-12-22, 11:12 AM
I am not a huge student of Star Wars lore, but didn't Mara Jade manage to be the Emperor's personal assassin for years without falling to the Dark Side because she's a massive Mary Sue she was dispassionate about killing? That's not Zen detatchment, that's being a sociopath.

JetThomasBoat
2015-01-04, 12:16 PM
I think you guys are putting too much stock in what Anakin was supposed to be. I can definitely relate to caring too much for some people and I think it seems certainly a valid interpretation of Anakin's character. Him not rescuing his mother was probably because the Jedi Council wouldn't let them.

And as far as him killing his wife because of how much he cared about her, you have to take things in order. Boy loves girl, boy has visions of girl dying, boy desperately wants to save her, boy is offered a way to save her but has to betray everything he was taught to believe in to do it, boy goes through with it, girl is horrified because of what he did (child killing and such), boy is so overcome with a lot of conflicting emotions that he kills her.

Anakin was flawed just like anyone else. Possibly more so. And he happens to have force powers and a sword made of light and the huge burden of some great prophecy on his shoulders, so the outcome will be a little worse than just some flawed person that cheats on their wife or gets behind a wheel after having too many cocktails.

That said, I think they damn sure could have written it better and had him a little less angsty. But I think it's certainly a valid example for all the people in this thread.

Personally, I say forget role playing a light-side Sith. Just play a smuggler from Corellia ;)

JusticeZero
2015-01-04, 03:44 PM
Honestly, i'd expect a Sith would need some outside training to learn the exercises to use the Light Side correctly - all of their training is going to have been focused on how to heighten and sustain strong emotions, not on how to clear them away. I've been wanting to run a Star Wars campaign centered around Sith PCs dealing with threats, helping the populace, and destroying injustice for the sake of the Empire for awhile though.