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Keledrath
2014-12-14, 06:37 PM
Okay, so, I've had an idea for a class for a while. I finally decided to put it together. I'm running into a few problems.
1. I'm not actually a big fan of the name. It sounds much more like a PrC. But I can't come up with
2. I'm trying not to have dead levels, but the area between 13 and 19 is giving me trouble.

I have the class set up on Google Docs, including comments I've made explaining each ability. I deliberately left the fluff out, since I generally prefer when players provide their own fluff. This could be anything from a secluded order of monk-like people who acquire their abilities through rigorous training, or it could be an instinctive class like sorcerer, or a professional fighter who has studied the body's limit and is determined to overcome them.

Here is the link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pBMmqUc3PuC2YfCN8SjJ_9ceZxxiADY4URlfrQQIjEM/edit)

Looking for opinions on
A possible better name
The abilities I've already designed
Abilities to fill in levels 14-18

Thank you all for your time. If anyone decided to use this, let me know how it goes.

Bluydee
2014-12-14, 09:39 PM
Does Energy Charge require you to spend 5 points on it to activate, or does it activate per every 5 you spend on surges?

The adrenaline pool gets way too large in the end. At level 20, with a reasonable 240 pool from a +12 modifier, you can take 21 rounds worth of actions in one turn. If Energy Charge works the way I think it does, spending that all gives 48d6 damage on each attack. You can win intiative pretty easily, spend all your points, run up to all the enemies, whack them, and win the encounter before anything happens and so the penalty doesn't even matter. These abilities probably need more of a cap. Does sound pretty cool though. Do 2 minutes worth of actions in just 6 seconds, moving so fast you set everything you touch on fire.

For a suggestion of an ability, spending adrenaline points to take your turn during the enemies.

Keledrath
2014-12-15, 12:40 AM
Does Energy Charge require you to spend 5 points on it to activate, or does it activate per every 5 you spend on surges?

It is based of of other points you spend. So if you spend 10 points for 2 bonus move actions, your attacks gain 2d6 energy damage for the turn.


The adrenaline pool gets way too large in the end. At level 20, with a reasonable 240 pool from a +12 modifier, you can take 21 rounds worth of actions in one turn. If Energy Charge works the way I think it does, spending that all gives 48d6 damage on each attack. You can win intiative pretty easily, spend all your points, run up to all the enemies, whack them, and win the encounter before anything happens and so the penalty doesn't even matter. These abilities probably need more of a cap. Does sound pretty cool though. Do 2 minutes worth of actions in just 6 seconds, moving so fast you set everything you touch on fire.

I think I mention this in my comment for the level 19 ability. By the time you reach 20, balance is gone anyways, so I just went for doing something awesome and fun.

Also, consider that if you somehow don't kill everything in that, you are taking half actions for your next 20 turns, and need 20 minutes to recharge.

It actually is slightly sillier. You spend 20 points to activate Essence of Action, and have 1d4+1 rounds of 19 actions per turn.

Consider the other elemental options, too. You turn into a bolt of lightning and inflict 2 minutes worth of damage in a blink, or rush around stealing the energy from your surroundings, freezing everything in place.


For a suggestion of an ability, spending adrenaline points to take your turn during the enemies.

Actually, the level 10 ability, Immediate Surge, is basically this. You can activate Surges as an immediate action, so outside of your own turn

Keledrath
2014-12-18, 01:03 AM
Anyone else have thoughts? Good, bad, indifferent?

Extra Anchovies
2014-12-18, 01:46 AM
Adrenal is on the list of words I don't like the sound of. It makes me think of glands, and glands aren't as cool as hitting people until they die, which is what this class does. Wish I could come up with a better name but I'm drawing only blanks here. Surgemaster? Surgefighter? Surge... dude? For some reason I think a surge-related title would be better.

The document should include one piece of fluff, and that is:

"Give it 110%!"

I'm not sorry.

Anyways, feedback:

The pseudo-full-BAB is awesome. There needs to be more of that sort of thing. You might want to explicitly state that they don't get a fourth attack, just to be clear.

Regeneration of Con points per minute means they only need to wait 1 minute/level to regain all of their points. This means they can nova like there's no tomorrow and recover very quickly. Maybe 1 or 2/minute? Encourages being a little more conservative with the points.

When they use a Surge, do they have to pre-select how long a Surge will last? If not, all of the penalties usually won't mean much, because they can keep extending it every round until all baddies are dead, then just suffer the penalties.

Nice to see a class that gets Cunning Action Surge and won't just use it to spam Iaijutsu Focus or UMD.

Ultimate Surge is intense, and comes online too early. To contrast, Time Stands Still is a 9th-level maneuver, and Eternal Blade's capstone (get an extra full round 1/encounter as an immediate action) can only be acquired at character level 20. Level 12 is waaay too early for that sort of thing.

Strong recommendation: disallow the use of Movement Surge, Action Surge, and Ultimate Surge out-of-turn. Celerity with no drawbacks or uses/day limits? Yeah, that's pretty broken.

Fast Reactions is pretty strong, but Diviner wizards get the same thing so eh. Might want to specify class level.

BIG THING: There's a clause in Adrenaline Pool's description that says Surges can be used out of turn, but then Immediate Surge is a thing. Clear this up please. I'd recommend removing the clause from Adrenaline Pool's description. I'd also very strongly recommend not allowing Action Surge, Movement Surge, and Ultimate Surge out-of-turn at all, for the above Celerity-is-effing-broken-even-for-a-martial-character reason.

Regarding the Surge system as a whole: This class would be most easily broken by spamming the hell out of Surge abilities. I'd recommend adding a points/round limit, maybe equal to class level (a la manifesting caps), and reducing the cost of Speed Surge to 1 point/5 feet (both so it's usable at level 1 and because speed increases are situational). This still lets them get +10 to attack (or +5 attack/damage if they want)... wait.

Now that I look at the math behind it, Combat Surge isn't very good. Easy buff: let them choose two options to apply the bonus to, and add DR/ as an option. So they can get AC and DR for defense, attack and damage for offense, defense and damage to try to outlast high-DR enemies, or some other combination. I can see this as a buff that would get extended a lot.

Energy charge is nice, but you may want to provide a duration (presumably till the end of the round).

Body of the Elements is damn strong at a 1:1 ratio, especially since Ray of Frost and Jolt let friendly arcane casters spam recharge effects on a Surgefighter (I'm calling them that now). Maybe they don't recharge if they take an amount of damage less than their Con modifier (to prevent cantrip recharge abuse), and only recharge 1 point plus (damage taken class level)? Then, they gain a little bit back if they would have been dealt some damage, and can potentially gain a lot back if they're hit by, say, an elder red dragon's breath weapon.

14, 15, 17, and 18 are all dead levels. There's only a bonus feat at 16. This is bad, because it's a five-level stretch with one non-unique class feature. Maybe scale the Surges differently? Speed Surge at level 1, Combat Surge at level 2, Assault Surge at level 5, Movement Surge at level 8, Swift Surge at level 11, Action Surge at level 14, and Ultimate Surge at level 17? Clears up two of the dead levels, evens out the scaling, moves Action and Ultimate Surge to levels where having them is balanced, and sets the progression on track for a level 20 capstone.

On the topic of capstones, the current one is kinda weak compared to, say, Magical Supremacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist#TOC-Magical-Supremacy-Su-), Grand Discovery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist#TOC-Grand-Discovery-Su-), or Weapon Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Weapon-Mastery-Ex-). Something that builds on their existing features would be better. Maybe this:

Endless Adrenaline (Ex): At 20th level, a Surgefighter has full control over their body's processes, and may redirect their energy however they choose. Each round, they may choose a single Surge ability and gain the benefits of that Surge as if they had spent a number of Adrenaline points equal to their Constitution modifier. They may not choose a Surge they do not have enough points for, and the number of effective points spent is rounded down to the nearest multiple of the chosen Surge's cost (for example, if a Surgefighter with a Constitution score of 24 chose to use this ability to gain the benefits of Assault Surge, they would only gain one additional attack), but the penalty of using that Surge does not apply. They may not use Endless Adrenaline to gain the benefits of Swift Surge, Action Surge, or Ultimate Surge. Effective points spent do not count towards the number of Adrenaline Points a Surgefighter may use each round.

Keledrath
2014-12-18, 02:22 AM
Adrenal is on the list of words I don't like the sound of. It makes me think of glands, and glands aren't as cool as hitting people until they die, which is what this class does. Wish I could come up with a better name but I'm drawing only blanks here. Surgemaster? Surgefighter? Surge... dude? For some reason I think a surge-related title would be better.

Well, that was kind of the goal with Adrenal. It was manipulation of the adrenal glands.

Surgefighter, though. I like that.


The document should include one piece of fluff, and that is:

"Give it 110%!"

I'm not sorry.

:smalltongue:

Anyways, feedback:


The pseudo-full-BAB is awesome. There needs to be more of that sort of thing. You might want to explicitly state that they don't get a fourth attack, just to be clear.

Yeah, this is something I wasn't sure how people would feel about, but I want to throw it on classes like magus too.


Regeneration of Con points per minute means they only need to wait 1 minute/level to regain all of their points. This means they can nova like there's no tomorrow and recover very quickly. Maybe 1 or 2/minute? Encourages being a little more conservative with the points.

I tried to make it so the recharge got longer with more levels. At low levels, you don't get nearly the power out of novaing, and once you pick up action manipulation, your recharge is getting longer. I might halve the recharge speed, putting it at 2-40 minutes. Having to sit around for 20 minutes after every fight isn't always an option, though that may just be the GMs I've had.


When they use a Surge, do they have to pre-select how long a Surge will last? If not, all of the penalties usually won't mean much, because they can keep extending it every round until all baddies are dead, then just suffer the penalties.

Yes, you have to spend all of the points up front. And bear in mind that you would have to spend a bigger surge to get around the penalty.


Nice to see a class that gets Cunning Action Surge and won't just use it to spam Iaijutsu Focus or UMD.

Thank you.


Ultimate Surge is intense, and comes online too early. To contrast, Time Stands Still is a 9th-level maneuver, and Eternal Blade's capstone (get an extra full round 1/encounter as an immediate action) can only be acquired at character level 20. Level 12 is waaay too early for that sort of thing.

I think I'll move it back to 16. Though bear in mind they do still have access to the combined Movement+Action Surge


Strong recommendation: disallow the use of Movement Surge, Action Surge, and Ultimate Surge out-of-turn. Celerity with no drawbacks or uses/day limits? Yeah, that's pretty broken.

Well, it has the drawback of the Surge penalty. I my make them more harsh, but, for example, Ultimate Surge cuts your actions in half for the next couple of turns.


Fast Reactions is pretty strong, but Diviner wizards get the same thing so eh. Might want to specify class level.

Bear in mind, this is a PF class. IIRC, there are at least a few archetypes that get either half or full level to initiative


BIG THING: There's a clause in Adrenaline Pool's description that says Surges can be used out of turn, but then Immediate Surge is a thing. Clear this up please. I'd recommend removing the clause from Adrenaline Pool's description. I'd also very strongly recommend not allowing Action Surge, Movement Surge, and Ultimate Surge out-of-turn at all, for the above Celerity-is-effing-broken-even-for-a-martial-character reason.

Ah, I forgot I put that in the Pool. I was looking in the Surges description for that line.


Regarding the Surge system as a whole: This class would be most easily broken by spamming the hell out of Surge abilities. I'd recommend adding a points/round limit, maybe equal to class level (a la manifesting caps), and reducing the cost of Speed Surge to 1 point/5 feet (both so it's usable at level 1 and because speed increases are situational). This still lets them get +10 to attack (or +5 attack/damage if they want)... wait.

Well, the intention is for this class to either nova or set up for an extended fight with long-duration surges. Basically, if you nova and don't win, you are crippling yourself for the rest of the fight.


Now that I look at the math behind it, Combat Surge isn't very good. Easy buff: let them choose two options to apply the bonus to, and add DR/ as an option. So they can get AC and DR for defense, attack and damage for offense, defense and damage to try to outlast high-DR enemies, or some other combination. I can see this as a buff that would get extended a lot.

Good idea. It seem a little underwhelming to me as well. Modifications have been made.


Energy charge is nice, but you may want to provide a duration (presumably till the end of the round).

Ah, thank you. Knew I missed something.


Body of the Elements is damn strong at a 1:1 ratio, especially since Ray of Frost and Jolt let friendly arcane casters spam recharge effects on a Surgefighter (I'm calling them that now). Maybe they don't recharge if they take an amount of damage less than their Con modifier (to prevent cantrip recharge abuse), and only recharge 1 point plus (damage taken class level)? Then, they gain a little bit back if they would have been dealt some damage, and can potentially gain a lot back if they're hit by, say, an elder red dragon's breath weapon.

I don't think it's as bad as you think. The cantrip tricks deal 1d3 per round. This ability comes online at level 13. Say you have a Con modifier of +6 (start +3, pick up a +4 item and boost at 4 and 8). That means your pool is 98. Thought with the slower recharge time now, I might institute damage -5 recharge.


14, 15, 17, and 18 are all dead levels. There's only a bonus feat at 16. This is bad, because it's a five-level stretch with one non-unique class feature. Maybe scale the Surges differently? Speed Surge at level 1, Combat Surge at level 2, Assault Surge at level 5, Movement Surge at level 8, Swift Surge at level 11, Action Surge at level 14, and Ultimate Surge at level 17? Clears up two of the dead levels, evens out the scaling, moves Action and Ultimate Surge to levels where having them is balanced, and sets the progression on track for a level 20 capstone.

Action Surge was specifically timed to come online when Cunning Surge did for factotum. Aside from moving Ultimate Surge back, of course.

I know the dead levels are bad. I actually mentioned in the opening post that I was struggling to come up with abilities to put there, and was open to ideas. I'm thinking maybe some kind of AoE ability with the energy damage.


On the topic of capstones, the current one is kinda weak compared to, say, Magical Supremacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist#TOC-Magical-Supremacy-Su-), Grand Discovery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist#TOC-Grand-Discovery-Su-), or Weapon Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Weapon-Mastery-Ex-). Something that builds on their existing features would be better.

I'm actually thinking of swapping the 19 and 20 abilities around. Essence of Action is a much better captsone in retrospect.


Thank you for all the commentary. It was extremely helpful.

Extra Anchovies
2014-12-18, 02:59 AM
Yes, you have to spend all of the points up front. And bear in mind that you would have to spend a bigger surge to get around the penalty.

Wait... I just realized that to get the benefit of an ability for a set number of rounds, you have to pay the cost of that ability times the number of rounds you want it to last for (I somehow skipped your example of +15 ft speed for five rounds costing 30 points). All of my feedback was under the assumption that they only needed to pay once and set the duration however they wanted, with the penalty lasting twice as long as the Surge if the Surge was set to more than one round in duration (e.g. +15 ft speed for one rounds costs six points and has a one-round penalty, +15 ft to speed for five rounds costs six points and has a ten-round penalty). I was interpreting their Adrenaline Pool as something meant to last all day, with the recharge being mostly fluff (getting less tired). This makes recharge a lot more relevant, and makes a good chunk of what I said about the class (e.g. points/round limit) kinda obsolete. Sorry :smallredface:


Bear in mind, this is a PF class. IIRC, there are at least a few archetypes that get either half or full level to initiative.

Yup. Hence my mention of Diviners (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination) :smalltongue:


I know the dead levels are bad. I actually mentioned in the opening post that I was struggling to come up with abilities to put there, and was open to ideas. I'm thinking maybe some kind of AoE ability with the energy damage.

I'm not sure about that. It's sort of odd how the early levels are SURGE SURGE SURGE and the later levels are occupied by energy-attack stuff. Feels sorta like that stuff 4e did with levels 11+ That's actually something I really like about 4e (you've reached your peak as a fighter, time to start on the unique supernatural stuff), but a bit more integration between the low and high levels would be good (hence my suggestion of placing Surges at 1/2/5/8/11/14/17). AoE damage would be great, but I'm not sure how to implement it.


I'm actually thinking of swapping the 19 and 20 abilities around. Essence of Action is a much better captsone in retrospect.

I don't actually like the 19th-level ability. There's... not much, to say the least, that a martial character can do during a Time Stop, because you can't attack people. It's only really useful for running away (which, at 19th level, will not happen; you'll either be winning by enough that you don't need to run, or you're being so badly curbstomped that running isn't an option).


Thank you for all the commentary. It was extremely helpful.

You're welcome! I love the class concept, I'm glad I overcame my distaste for the name enough to open this thread :smalltongue:

Keledrath
2014-12-18, 10:11 AM
Wait... I just realized that to get the benefit of an ability for a set number of rounds, you have to pay the cost of that ability times the number of rounds you want it to last for (I somehow skipped your example of +15 ft speed for five rounds costing 30 points). All of my feedback was under the assumption that they only needed to pay once and set the duration however they wanted, with the penalty lasting twice as long as the Surge if the Surge was set to more than one round in duration (e.g. +15 ft speed for one rounds costs six points and has a one-round penalty, +15 ft to speed for five rounds costs six points and has a ten-round penalty). I was interpreting their Adrenaline Pool as something meant to last all day, with the recharge being mostly fluff (getting less tired). This makes recharge a lot more relevant, and makes a good chunk of what I said about the class (e.g. points/round limit) kinda obsolete. Sorry :smallredface:

Eh, I should probably make that bigger.


Yup. Hence my mention of Diviners (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination) :smalltongue:

Herpaderp on my part this time


I'm not sure about that. It's sort of odd how the early levels are SURGE SURGE SURGE and the later levels are occupied by energy-attack stuff. Feels sorta like that stuff 4e did with levels 11+ That's actually something I really like about 4e (you've reached your peak as a fighter, time to start on the unique supernatural stuff), but a bit more integration between the low and high levels would be good (hence my suggestion of placing Surges at 1/2/5/8/11/14/17). AoE damage would be great, but I'm not sure how to implement it.

That actually kind of is what I was going for. Level 11 marked when you started going beyond what normal people could do in a fundamental way.


I don't actually like the 19th-level ability. There's... not much, to say the least, that a martial character can do during a Time Stop, because you can't attack people. It's only really useful for running away (which, at 19th level, will not happen; you'll either be winning by enough that you don't need to run, or you're being so badly curbstomped that running isn't an option).

And there goes me forgetting how Time Stop worked. I meant them to be able to attack. Basically, this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmJa5cv3kZM)

Almarck
2014-12-19, 02:08 PM
I think it has potential in that it can be quite flexible on what it can actually be. I do lilove the fact there's more than outright just getting angry.

I do however have some gripes. Personally I dislike the whole energy surge mechanic it being... well strange that it exists as an extraordinary ability. It doesn't, to me anyways, feel like it makes sense since up until that point everything could else seemed like it could be explained as just really good training.i think it would be fine if it was just labeled as supernatural.


As for a better name, how about "Reactionary"? I dunno but I feel like the idea can be though of as a man or woman who quickly reacts to the situation