trying to be a DM/GM but need help

[lord4571]

id love to be a dm and try out my own campaign and I understand im suppose to make it so that its fun and challaging and not kill them off im not vs them, but my 2 problems are everything I think of to build my own main quest it feels to much like its a cleshe and it seems like it wouldn't be much fun in my eyes to play something that's been done already. my other problem which is simpler I think is setting up the right encounters for adventers to play though. again I know its suppose to be hard but when does it become to little or to much. like if I almost kill them in one encounter to where they lost 3/4 of there health is that normal or should they have never been touched at all and easily kill everything im thinking lvl 5 party of 4 or 5 in this example.

another problem id like to know how to solve is to make a class that's op not op so they can use it just lowers ho much they can do to be fair but I see that more being a personal perfcence to the dm

[Troacctid]

There is nothing new under the sun. Don't worry about being original. Tropes are tools. Clichés are cliché for a reason. Besides, your players will react to them in unexpected ways and end up creating a brand new story regardless.

As for balancing, it takes practice. You'll mess up at first. Learn from your mistakes and you'll get better with experience. Try starting with premade modules instead of doing everything from scratch--it'll help take some of the pressure off.

[P.F.]

everything I think of to build my own main quest it feels to much like its a cleshe and it seems like it wouldn't be much fun in my eyes to play something that's been done already.

Is this for a tabletop game with your real-life friends? I've found that most of my friends get the most enjoyment out of the challenges of dealing with each other and the monsters they end up fighting. How they get there is almost immaterial, as long as they get to roll dice and flex their numbers. There are no new stories, only new twists on old ones. I played in a game taken directly from Dante's Inferno. It was plenty of fun, despite having been done already.


my other problem which is simpler I think is setting up the right encounters for adventers to play though. again I know its suppose to be hard but when does it become to little or to much. like if I almost kill them in one encounter to where they lost 3/4 of there health is that normal or should they have never been touched at all and easily kill everything im thinking lvl 5 party of 4 or 5 in this example.

The metrics for this are Challenge Rating ("CR," given to individual monsters) and Encounter Level ("EL," given to groups of monsters). Every monster in the game has a CR. Calculating the EL based on small groups of monsters of different CR's can get more complicated, but the table is pretty straightforward.

Now the rules are going to say that a party of 4 level 5 characters should expend about 20% of their resources, in hit points, spells, etc, on a CR 5 monster. This varies widely. If the characters don't work together, if they get ambushed, or if the monster gets really lucky rolls, they can quite easily be in a lot more trouble. If they are an "optimized" party they might well obliterate it without any trouble at all.

It takes some practice, but if you start with encounters that are at-level, you will probably not kill them all by accident. If you need to make the encounters harder, you can pick higher CR monsters for them to fight.

Oh and don't let them rest to prepare new spells after every fight. It will inflate the casters' sense of self-importance, and their heads usually don't fit through standard doorways already.

Good luck!

[Kristinn]

First thing is, as a new DM it's really tempting to throw really hard encounters at them, and play so that they all still survive. There are two things that is wrong with this approach. The first is that encounter just plain shouldn't be even close to an even match. A single character of their class level is a correct Challenge Rating encounter. They should be able to win almost every encounter without too much trouble, expending on average one-fourth of their resources. This makes it really engaging when there is suddenly a much harder encounter, where they go all-out on their spells, potions, limit-use magic items, etc., and they feel the risk inherent in the "boss fight". Imagine playing a Pokemon game where every fight is as hard as a Gym leader. Sure, you could win, but you'd have to go to a Pokemon center after every fight, and it would feel too stressful.

Second of all, when they often have fights where most of the characters suffer heavy damage, but no-one dies, you start feeling like you don't have to work as a team to keep everyone alive. The attitude of the DM, that damaging every player to make them feel threatened, quickly becomes transparent, and everyone just does their thing in combat, knowing one of the Orcs will charge past the half-dead Fighter to "threaten the Wizard in melee", and the archer will focus his attacks on the Cleric, so that everyone will somehow be "tagged" by the enemy, but the goal never seemed to brutally take down one PC, and then move on to the next.

Balancing encounters around good tactics is hard, but very rewarding for your players. If a player make stupid tactical mistakes, like a Barbarian winning Initiative, Raging and Charging in, it can easily get him killed if the enemies do the logical thing and just focus him, even against a CR = party level -1 or -2. However if you make your enemies weak enough not to punish tactical mistakes, the enemies fall really quickly whenever your players are someone halfway smart.

In the end it's very easy for a DM just to throw heavy critters at the party, feel like he's challenging them when they take the first few hits like champs, and save against a spell or two, and then just have them make stupid tactical choices that break the player's immersion and enjoyment. So go the extra mile, talk to your players about thinking tactically and using the Ready action option. Balance your encounters carefully enough so that they aren't to dangerous when you play the enemies with tactical sense, but still not pushovers when the players themselves are stupid. Punish mistakes by the player, but make their enemies weaker then them so that they don't suffer full party wipes. Include a "boss fight" every now and then that presents real mortal danger to the players, and make it clear that this fight is more dangerous than most others.

[frogglesmash]

I personally think that the best ways to balance the classes against each other is to have an OOC understanding with your players that everyone will play nice. If it seems like someone is consistently invalidating the party in a way that detracts from the fun simply tell them to tone it down. It's only if they fail to co-operate that you should look at nerfs.

[lord4571]

ok thx now that makes me feel a little better about story ideas a little bit.


I personally think that the best ways to balance the classes against each other is to have an OOC understanding with your players that everyone will play nice. If it seems like someone is consistently invalidating the party in a way that detracts from the fun simply tell them to tone it down. It's only if they fail to co-operate that you should look at nerfs.

I understand that if a player isn't working with everyone and causing problems that he needs to be nerfed weather taking the fun out of it or being a problem player but what I meant more clearly is what is to op in general what should I say no to and what shouldn't I say no to. cuz the player could be playing nice with the others and let things happen but what if they are about to become close to death and there suppose to at that point and then the op person with the class, race, or feat kills almost everything with out braking a sweet or use a power that could heal everything a low level. these are obvious examples (I think) but what about things that arnt so obvious but op still I don't want to go like a few session in then have to nerf him/her a lot cuz of the op "something" that's more what im worried about. don't want a person to always be able to op anything I throw at them.

[lord4571]

The metrics for this are Challenge Rating ("CR," given to individual monsters) and Encounter Level ("EL," given to groups of monsters). Every monster in the game has a CR. Calculating the EL based on small groups of monsters of different CR's can get more complicated, but the table is pretty straightforward.

ok. now u say table? is there a link to look at this table so I can better plan encounters.

[OldTrees1]

I understand that if a player isn't working with everyone and causing problems that he needs to be nerfed weather taking the fun out of it or being a problem player but what I meant more clearly is what is to op in general what should I say no to and what shouldn't I say no to. cuz the player could be playing nice with the others and let things happen but what if they are about to become close to death and there suppose to at that point and then the op person with the class, race, or feat kills almost everything with out braking a sweet or use a power that could heal everything a low level. these are obvious examples (I think) but what about things that arnt so obvious but op still I don't want to go like a few session in then have to nerf him/her a lot cuz of the op "something" that's more what im worried about. don't want a person to always be able to op anything I throw at them.

Ah.

This too takes practice. Obviously at this stage you should preface every inclusion with "If it turns out to be OP then we will need to reevaluate/modify it". However you personally want to avoid that as much as possible(good attitude).

Technique 1: Change the challenge
Different tactics are better at different things. If the Archer is OP(unlikely), then increase the amount of cover/concealment and decrease the distance between archer and foes. Try not to negate a tactic, just make it harder/less effective.

Technique 2: Snip, Slide, and Substitute abilities
If there are particular ability that is OP, then you could try to remove the ability. If the Player isn't attached to the ability this is easy. If the Player is attached to the ability then push it to later in the class or replace it with a weaker ability that does what the Player liked but is not OP.


Encounter Calculator: http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

[jedipotter]

There is nothing new under the sun. Don't worry about being original. Tropes are tools. Clichés are cliché for a reason. Besides, your players will react to them in unexpected ways and end up creating a brand new story regardless.

There is nothing new, but that does not mean that you can't twist things. And remember that not everything is known to everyone.

Did you see movie the Guardians of the Galaxy? Did your friends? Did you like it? Did they? Did you think it was ''new and like nothing else?'' Ever watched a movie before where a ''rag tag bunch of misfits have to band together to save the world''?

Now GotG was a bit like Firefly, Andromeda, or Lexx. Ever see any of them? If you have not, I'll bet your friends have not too. So all you need to do is find a couple episodes and watch them.....and use the plot and ideas. They won't be new ideas, but if they are new to your group that that works out great.





As for balancing, it takes practice. You'll mess up at first. Learn from your mistakes and you'll get better with experience. Try starting with premade modules instead of doing everything from scratch--it'll help take some of the pressure off.

This is a pure experience thing...

[P.F.]

ok. now u say table? is there a link to look at this table so I can better plan encounters.

Page 101 of the 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide, or page 49 of DMG3.5.

Paizo does it a little differently and just calls it a group CR Equivalency, it's simpler but doesn't include entries for monsters of different levels. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering#Table-CR-Equivalencies

The d20srd has a nifty little omnibus calculator tool which is easier once you have an encounter already planned but requires a "guess-and-check" method to design an encounter from scratch: http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

Generally speaking, a monster or encounter with a CR the same as the party level will allow you, as the DM, to try your best to kill the adventurers with the resources available, and still allow them to win, if they don't make too many mistakes. If they goof off, and you are ruthless, you might kill one of them. Also, as each successive encounter drains their resources, your chances of killing them get better.

An encounter with a CR two or three points higher than their level will make a good boss fight and has a good chance of killing some or all of them if they aren't prepared. If they are walking through at-level encounters with no difficulty, you can pick monsters with higher CR's.

Don't let all the Talmudic calculations and exceptions intimidate you. Start simple and once you get more comfortable you can mix it up a bit. Basically just pick a monster with a CR that matches the party's level, or a group of however many monsters with lower CR's. Then you can customize it a bit as you get a feel for what the players can handle and what gives them trouble.

[Flickerdart]

There are two steps to crafting a foolproof and memorable plot for a first campaign as a DM. It won't win you awards, but it shouldn't fall down with a stiff breeze.

1) A familiar story is a good story because it helps you calibrate expectations. Flip through something like TVTropes or the Aarne-Thompson System to find a general framework that everyone is familiar with. There is a princess in a mountain cave, guarded by a dragon? Everyone immediately knows what's going to happen, they forge their magic swords, ride out on valiant steeds, overcome some rigors that show them to be powerful and righteous, and stab the dragon in the face until it dies. If you try to get fancy, your players will lose direction and you'll have to either railroad them (bad) or watch them flounder (also bad). In a similar vein, stock characters are also your friends. There is a reason short stories use both stock characters and stock plots to get the point across. Your first campaign should be self-contained and manageable, not sprawling and unfocused.

2) If everything is a subversion, nothing is. But in a story that feels familiar, they won't see it coming. Build up to exactly one twist that helps put the players in control of the narrative after they've become familiar with it. Maybe it turns out that the dragon is in the employ of the king and kidnaps politically inconvenient relatives. Maybe the king is a polymorphed dragon himself, and the other dragon is his rival. Maybe the princess is the dragon, and escaped to the mountains to hide her shameful secret. Either way, you've now turned the narrative on its side and given the reins to the players. Will they challenge the king now that they know he is not what he seems to be? If they do, are they willing to ally with their former enemy? If not, will they seek other allies elsewhere, perhaps someone they encountered along their journey?

In a similar vein to the plot concepts, building encounters is all about expectations. When your players fight a dragon, demon, or similar legendary beast, they'll want buildup. Let them find out ahead of time that a powerful enemy lurks nearby, either manipulating events from behind the scenes or simply raiding the local village for artisanal hams. Give them the opportunity to prepare for the battle, research weaknesses, and shore up their own. That way, when the fight finally comes, they will feel okay about having difficulty.

On the other hand, most encounters aren't the stuff of stories. Skeletons? It's fine to wreck them without taking much damage. Kobolds? Nothing more than a speed bump on the way to the real fight. To make fights with weaker creatures memorable, consider using things like terrain, but be careful that the players don't get angry at the monsters for using cheap tactics. Tucker's Kobolds might be a great way to teach someone a lesson, but they're not exactly fun to play against. A helpful structure to pace your encounters might be something like this: a fight against these weak enemies, then a fight or two against a squad of them led by a mini-boss (either an advanced version of their kind, or a creature that complements their abilities), and then the main boss of that part of the adventure.

The first fight against these guys should be without tricks, but never repeat this fight. Ease the players into the type of creature it is, and then start introducing other tricks. For instance, if the PCs are storming a dwarf fortress to rescue an elven princess, the first fight might be against some regular axe-wielding dwarves. The PCs find out through experience that their enemy packs a punch but is very slow, and wins the encounter through kiting and skirmish tactics. The next encounter must not allow them to repeat the same tactic to win - maybe the dwarves are guarding a spell turret, which out-ranges the PCs and forces them to try and break through the line. Maybe the dwarves lure them into an ambush and surround them. Maybe they have a captive bulette that can burrow around behind the party.

The boss is when the PCs should be able to use everything they've learned. It should use variations of the previous creatures' tactics, ideally with some backup so there's no action asymmetry. In this example, maybe the dwarf king rides on a chariot and fires arrows, but destroying the chariot will force him to become slow (which the party knows how to exploit already). Maybe he has multiple pet bulettes and the PCs can use some way they've found to break his control over them (killing their handlers, or pulling out a tasty treat they found earlier).

The most important thing is that everything should feel connected. There must always be a sense of a goal and a sense of progress towards that goal.

[lord4571]

There are two steps to crafting a foolproof and memorable plot for a first campaign as a DM. It won't win you awards, but it shouldn't fall down with a stiff breeze. <-(everything else said)--> The most important thing is that everything should feel connected. There must always be a sense of a goal and a sense of progress towards that goal.

thx's that make sense to do and will try to ease them in to there enconters or what they be fighting when it makes sense. and I get it more how t put a twist on things a little bit enough to where not to make it the same story they have payed before (maybe).

it also seems like some of you think that's its friends I know in rl but im using roll20 which is the reason y I not so sure on what to do story wise but with this info it should help me lots so thanks again :smallbiggrin:

[lord4571]

ran into another question. where should I end there leveling and get them to finish the campaign classes normaly stop at 20 but is that when I should head to the ending of my campaign or should they go higher. basicly I don't want to have a hard boss fight then it take to long and the players wanting to stop playing yet they will never win against such a creature. im using the table for my boss fight and I have 2 monsters with a CR of 25+. 5 members at level 20 is overpowering. is that to hard? or is that right for the final boss fight if to weak then should it be unbeatable (but I don't think it should but I could be wrong) :smalleek:

[Troacctid]

It'll take a long time to get that far. You'll learn on the way. Cross that bridge when you come to it.

[OldTrees1]

ran into another question. where should I end there leveling and get them to finish the campaign classes normaly stop at 20 but is that when I should head to the ending of my campaign or should they go higher. basicly I don't want to have a hard boss fight then it take to long and the players wanting to stop playing yet they will never win against such a creature. im using the table for my boss fight and I have 2 monsters with a CR of 25+. 5 members at level 20 is overpowering. is that to hard? or is that right for the final boss fight if to weak then should it be unbeatable (but I don't think it should but I could be wrong) :smalleek:

2 questions
1) Qualitatively describe the threat you want to throw at the PCs.
2) Describe how powerful you want the PCs.

Some examples:
In a recent campaign, I wanted the PCs to face leaders of global organizations as if they were peers. This lead to the PCs ending at 15th level against CR 17 NPCs. The final fight was the party + 1 NPC vs 4 NPCs.

In an older campaign, I wanted the PCs to face governments but I wanted the PCs to cap individually at the strength of a local power. So I had the PCs end at 11th level and had CR 15 encounters(1 CR 13 NPC enemy, and lower level enemies).

[Kelb_Panthera]

ran into another question. where should I end there leveling and get them to finish the campaign classes normaly stop at 20 but is that when I should head to the ending of my campaign or should they go higher. basicly I don't want to have a hard boss fight then it take to long and the players wanting to stop playing yet they will never win against such a creature. im using the table for my boss fight and I have 2 monsters with a CR of 25+. 5 members at level 20 is overpowering. is that to hard? or is that right for the final boss fight if to weak then should it be unbeatable (but I don't think it should but I could be wrong) :smalleek:

The important thing, as far as that goes, is to end the campaign wherever the story you and your players feel it -should- end. Aim for the end of your BBEG, not a specific character level.

With some experience you can learn to get those two to more or less coincide but you don't, imo, want to artificially extend or cut short your campaign's naturally flowing plot because of a metagame goal you've set.

On that, though; you'll probably want to end things around the early part of level 13 or so. High level magic can be -very- difficult for new DM's to adjudicate especially if any of your players are or are likely to become skilled optimizers.

[Flickerdart]

ran into another question. where should I end there leveling and get them to finish the campaign classes normaly stop at 20 but is that when I should head to the ending of my campaign or should they go higher. basicly I don't want to have a hard boss fight then it take to long and the players wanting to stop playing yet they will never win against such a creature. im using the table for my boss fight and I have 2 monsters with a CR of 25+. 5 members at level 20 is overpowering. is that to hard? or is that right for the final boss fight if to weak then should it be unbeatable (but I don't think it should but I could be wrong) :smalleek:
Remember what I said about short campaigns - if you're only starting out, you should stick to something more manageable.

Remember that you need 13.3 CR-appropriate encounters to level up. Between level 1 and 20, you will have to run 253 encounters. At an average of 2 encounters per session and one session a week, a 1 to 20 campaign will take you 2.4 years.

A campaign boss doesn't have to be world-shattering. There are plenty of great low- or mid-level monsters that can cap a short campaign that only lasts a couple of months. If you want to start your party out at 5th level, a good boss monster would be an Illithid and three to four 7th-8th level thralls (CR12, a good boss fight for an 8th level party) or a similar arrangement (a Vampire and some Spawn, or a Necromancer and some Mummies, Mohrgs, and the sort). Leveling up over three levels would take 40 encounters, about 5 months by the above time scale, and is a pretty decent run for a campaign.

[lord4571]

when does an encounter end? does it end when they defeat everything before any rest? or does it end once they defeat whats standing in front of them.

example: they go in a dungon and fight 3 goblins once they enter. once those 3 are defeated they move further in the dungeon and find more goblins.

does the 3 goblins count at one encounter? or does all of them do? (again this is all without rest.)

[OldTrees1]

when does an encounter end? does it end when they defeat everything before any rest? or does it end once they defeat whats standing in front of them.

example: they go in a dungon and fight 3 goblins once they enter. once those 3 are defeated they move further in the dungeon and find more goblins.

does the 3 goblins count at one encounter? or does all of them do? (again this is all without rest.)

Once combat ends, the encounter ends. There are many encounters per rest and several rests per dungeon.

[Scipio_77]

id love to be a dm and try out my own campaign and I understand im suppose to make it so that its fun and challaging and not kill them off im not vs them, but my 2 problems are everything I think of to build my own main quest it feels to much like its a cleshe and it seems like it wouldn't be much fun in my eyes to play something that's been done already. my other problem which is simpler I think is setting up the right encounters for adventers to play though. again I know its suppose to be hard but when does it become to little or to much. like if I almost kill them in one encounter to where they lost 3/4 of there health is that normal or should they have never been touched at all and easily kill everything im thinking lvl 5 party of 4 or 5 in this example.

another problem id like to know how to solve is to make a class that's op not op so they can use it just lowers ho much they can do to be fair but I see that more being a personal perfcence to the dm

A good tip for learning balance is to make your first adventures/modules "contingent", basically so that the players themselves get to set the pace they wish to go through the encounters. A classic and very simple way of doing this is a "dungeon" filled mostly with various mindless undead (though undead is notorious for rewarding some classes and punishing others so it is not always the best bet), or some other kind of monster/obstacle that won't react tactically and regroup just because players engage in combat "close by".

As for cliches, they are not bad in and off themselves. I think a good way to make them "better" is to take all those times in movies/series/books where you have been annoyed about how stereotypical a character acts and correct it in your story.

[Yahzi]

id love to be a dm and try out my own campaign
For your first time at bat, it's OK to use a module. Or even a whole adventure path. Really.

[Deox]

when does an encounter end? does it end when they defeat everything before any rest? or does it end once they defeat whats standing in front of them.

example: they go in a dungon and fight 3 goblins once they enter. once those 3 are defeated they move further in the dungeon and find more goblins.

does the 3 goblins count at one encounter? or does all of them do? (again this is all without rest.)


First - know what an encounter is. Interaction. A series of events or actions that answer something by resolving a conflict. Springing a trapped door? Encounter. Dancing with a noble during a ball? Encounter. Engaging in diplomatic talks? Encounter.

A combat is the result or consequence of the encounter.

Ranting aside - The encounter ends when a shift in scene or dramatic tension does. Taking your example, the first set of goblins would be one "encounter". That is, unless, one of the goblins escapes to rally or alert his allies...

[Kelb_Panthera]

I seem to recall that either ToB or dungeonscape gave a definition that says an encounter ends 1 minute after the fighting stops.

[lord4571]

For your first time at bat, it's OK to use a module. Or even a whole adventure path. Really.

idk where to look for good ones and if I found them they seem to be disorganized to me but idk if im looking in the right place for them