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Tyris1013
2014-12-14, 08:06 PM
'Ello,

Looking for second opinion on topic cause I'm second doubting myself as a DM regarding my players.

I'm running a campaign with eight people atm. While its not hard, the constant interrupting of players by other players is bit of a problem which I'm working on...

But that's not what I want to discuss. Thing is, I don't think my players care about the game as much as I do. That's ok, everyone has their taste, right? It's just that it bugs me when a player comes to play D&D, and hasn't read anything about their class, or spells that they can cast, which mainly would take up to one hour...

And we have our facebook page, along with gmail to notify eachother what's new, what to read, so I always notify them one week ahead of time.

Call me crazy, but someone would think player's guide was made for players to read? But eh... I said I'll read it, whoever wants read the book. But the requirement was just to read about your race, class and which background you want. Eventually combat and feats is just a bonus, spellcasting is advised.

Race, class is roughly about 10 pages, and takes half an hour to read. Background only for character creation (everyone read that one)

So here's the question to you. Would you be upset if a player would come to your session without know what their class can do after you reminded everyone to read and take notes of their features?

Maybe its just me and I exaggerate, considering how much work goes into preparing for a game...

Second part of problem is that my player lack creativity/imagination. They can't think of what to do, or how to solve the problem, while I can think of many ways. Has anyone ran into this problem?

Speaking of which, the same player - who is Half-Orc druid, always pulls strange moves in my session that just leaves me confused and speechless. Her wisdom and intelligence is not of negative values (16 wis, 12 int, so her character is not that clueless)

Here's couple of examples.

She went to the city barracks, two guardsman greeted her asking what she wants. She wanted to go down to the catacombs without her friends, leaving them behind. The soldiers declined her request because they do not have approval of their Captain to let her down there. So she gets all mad demanding to let her down there because she wants to speed up the game so they can finish their objective as soon as possible (basically rushing the game...) eventually she pulls out her sword on the guards and the guards react on this as assault. I'm stunned and say.. "Well, ok... Roll initiative" then all of a sudden she's upset why does she have to roll for initiative, can't she just hit them first while they just stand there? At this point I didn't know where to begin with... I just replied "Well... What do you think happens when you draw your swords on guards"? And basically after that I had to explain how initiative works ect...

And now this last session when they're all on a boat traveling to certain island which they have quest by a ship of kobold pirates led by human captain (long story). She kept looking/asking where to loot the ship, where to enter a ship just so she would get something. I wasn't aware that D&D was a looting based game? Besides that, its a pirate ship... And she wanted to loot it while bunch of kobold pirates are aware of her actions, what the heck?

Ooooh, but lets not forget the best part. The 5 minutes after they've boarded the ship, she brought up this crazy idea that they should just kill the crew and take the ship for their own. Now that really blown my ****ing mind.

Because of the whole 'hijacking' idea/conspiracy plot she was discussing among party members, but not everyone agreed, I've brought up with curse of the seas, sending in Sea Viper to assault the ship. It's similar concept to the rule when you invite someone to their home, offer them hospitality, you don't kill them unless you want bad luck on you... Same with boat hijacking. The pirates were transporting them willingly, she had no reason to kill them in the first place.

Eventually someone stole the tobacco on ship, forcing Captain to come out of his cabin and first thing she does when everyone gathered on top deck is walk up to him so she could charm her (regardless that she didn't hear me that charm has 30 feet range...) so that she would surprised that kobolds overwhelmed her, pinning her to the ground. And after that she would argue with me "No! I didn't want that to happen, bring it back to the point where they didn't ambush me so I can charm him"

And at that point I lost it. Just wanted her to shut up after arguing for so long that she already made her move, now suffer the consequences, but she would have none of that. Normally I wouldn't budge, but just wanted to cut her off, and gave her roll after all, which captain rolled saving throw without problem.

During the boss sea viper battle and initiative roll, she said she doesn't want to fight... I just stared at her, luckily my other player said 'roll anyway so we have the list, in case you want to do something else' or something like that. Afterwards she throws herself into the water and transforming herself into a fish... (oh yeah, she wanted to wild shape into a sea viper which was way above her challenge rating requirement...)

That's pretty much it, the whole problem. Looking for second opinion on this topic, and has anyone ran into problems like these? We're playing D&D 5e if it matters to anyone.

Thanks!

Kelb_Panthera
2014-12-14, 08:24 PM
Sometimes players new to table top gaming have a hard time throwing off the conventions of PC and console gaming. It sounds, to me at least, like that's what's happening here.

If it's just that one player then what you want to do is try to make it clear to her that this is much closer to playing pretend with rules than it is to a video game. Just like in life, actions have consequences and characters (people) will react to your behavior as logic and their backgrounds dictate. They most certainly do -not- behave based on a few lines of over simplistic AI code.

As for the problem with no one caring about the game world, you're probably not imagining it. The other people at the table have much less invested in the game world than you. There's not much you can do about it besides asking them to be a bit more civil and provide an -engaging- game world. If you want tips on that, I'll see what I can dig up in the way of a few essays on writing in general and creating a setting in particular.

Give the players some time to get more accustomed to the system and continue doing the best you can. Eventually, with a little luck, some of them will find they rather enjoy TT gaming while the others will realize they don't and you can cut out the latter set from your gaming and enjoy their company doing other things. In particular keep an eye on your orc druid. If she doesn't shape up after a while and a few warnings you may have to kick her for the good of the game.

Red Fel
2014-12-14, 08:45 PM
First and foremost, I agree with Kelb. It sounds like this player wants to play this game as if it were a video game, complete with save points and consequence-free actions. And that bird will not fly; the player needs to realize that this game does not function like a video game. If she can't wrap her head around that, I would gently suggest Skyrim as a productive and enjoyable alternative.

Now, one thing that strikes me is this: You mention one of your major issues is that your players don't seem to care about the game as much as you do. You also mention that you are running a campaign with eight players. You say that you don't want to talk about that part.

I think you should.

Here's why: Running games for large groups is hard. Not just because you have to do a lot of bookkeeping. It's hard for the same reason that makes tabletop gaming such a great social experience - the larger a group is, the harder it becomes to keep them focused. Larger groups are rowdier, more easily distracted, more prone to breaking away from the main activity. Much like parties (real-life parties, not adventuring parties) may reach a critical mass and splinter into smaller sub-groups, a large enough tabletop group risks fracturing into assorted activities. Players may be distracted by their phones, or whip out Magic cards, or start chatting about sports or movies or modern art or the proper way to roast a bratwurst. Larger groups are harder to keep in the game.

So first and foremost, I'd suggest stepping back and considering whether you can really handle a large group. There's no shame in saying that you can't. And even if you can, consider whether this particular group can handle being a large group.

In short, consider splitting the group into smaller groups. Smaller groups are easier for a number of reasons. Smaller groups mean that turns are shorter, so the players can get act more frequently. They mean that "committee meetings" between the PCs are shorter, which in turn lets the players get back to playing the game faster. They mean that you, as the DM, can focus on each PC more regularly, which means each player gets more time in the spotlight. And these are all things that get the players more invested in the game - get them interacting more, get them doing more, make their PCs feel more special, and they're more likely to get involved. And that's harder to do as the group gets larger.

Tyris1013
2014-12-15, 08:04 AM
Thanks guys,

You gave me a lot to think about. It never occurred to me that the problem might because of 8 party members. I did though it'd be easy and while I have no problems booking everything, the problem lies with players. Too many of them, too many distractions as you said and not enough time for player to shine :( -and lots of cell phone drawing too, blah!

Guess I'll have to reduce the player count to 6, even tho its bit of a pain...

SoulSalvage
2014-12-15, 08:40 AM
Guess I'll have to reduce the player count to 6, even tho its bit of a pain...

Your better bet is to split the group into two separate groups of four, rather than cutting two members. Six players is still quite a heap and hard to keep track of. I personally find three-man groups the most engaging, but four works as well. And it allows a couple of players to leave, while still retaining good sized groups.

goto124
2014-12-15, 08:48 AM
Just curious Tyris, how well do you know the 8 players? It might make a lot of difference.

[The rest of the post isn't directed at Tyris, just talking about the general issues Tyris brought up.]


Sometimes players new to table top gaming have a hard time throwing off the conventions of PC and console gaming. It sounds, to me at least, like that's what's happening here.

As a more conventional gamer (who hasn't played a Tabletop game before, and only just got into RP), I would've tried a lot of things that the newbie did. Even reading all those papers out there won't really help, not when you have 0% experience and have absolutely no context and no means to understand the rules - you have to go out and learn by trial and error. In all fairness, Tyris isn't wrong to get frustrated or kick her out if she can't handle the newbie. There's nothing wrong with either of them, they just can't get along, so don't force it.

Firstly, does the newbie actually want to start roleplaying? If no, she ought to stick to PC and console gaming.

If yes, perhaps said newbie can go to someone else who can show her the ropes? In a console game, she could've gone on her own- heck, she could've skipped the instructions and went straight to the game, guessing everything along the way. Trouble is, TT games are practically unplayable (and unenjoyable) without cooperative players. Are there any websites where she (and I!) can go to learn from experienced players prepared to teach clueless newbies, and are equipped with the skills to handle them (such as the patience to answer every question in a calm manner even if it's very basic and has been asked over 1000 times)? Do these sort of things exist?

Red Fel
2014-12-15, 10:07 AM
Are there any websites where she (and I!) can go to learn from experienced players prepared to teach clueless newbies, and are equipped with the skills to handle them (such as the patience to answer every question in a calm manner even if it's very basic and has been asked over 1000 times)? Do these sort of things exist?

Welcome to the Playground. You've just described a lot of what we do here.

If you play D&D 3.0/3.5 or PF, there's an ongoing FAQ thread in the subforum likely to address any concerns. If you play other games, you can post here or in the relevant subforum with any questions you may have. A lot of posters are very helpful, and will not only address your questions, but also questions you probably never realized that you had. You can also find an abundance of handbooks and guides addressing character design, play styles, and various tabletop do's and don't's.

And if you want to get some practice in a game, there's the Play by Post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?3-Play-by-Post-Games) section. There are often games run with new players in mind, and while it's not quite the same as playing at a tabletop, it's a great way to learn the ropes.

Lastly, if you're in a location with a larger gaming population, many game stores or similar hubs of gaming culture offer tutorial sessions, or sort of training-wheel one-shot campaigns for new players to learn the ropes. If you can't find one that way, you can try looking on social websites like MeetUp; many towns will have a tabletop-related MeetUp group, and many such groups will have a "gaming for newbies" event to introduce new players to the game, mechanics, and style.

Back to the OP, I agree with breaking the party into two four-person parties, rather than one six-person party and two rejects. Most games descended from D&D are designed around a four-person party; even if your game isn't, four people are still easier to handle than six, and it keeps you from having to eject anyone.

Tyris1013
2014-12-15, 11:21 AM
Alright, so...

The eight players, we all know each other via casual hangouts. There are two couples, and one is the girl half orc I spoke about. But that doesn't matter, they play their characters well.

For roleplaying purposes, yes and no... We're all 'geeks' and watch/read lots of fantasy so I don't think its hard for her to role play. But the thing is that everyone came prepared, read out their class and features while she didn't.

For role playing on her part is rather... strange. She has this thigh idea about her Half-Orc druid who grew up in the wilds that she can get away with everything ignoring common sense. Attack guards? Sure, why not, for no particular reason. Kill everyone on ship for no reason? Of course. Loot the pirate ship while kobolds are watching? Go for it... (keep in mind, I did say if you pull out a hide check, and sleight of hand, you could steal something of the ship)

I get this feeling she's not into the game, but the sole purpose is to 'use' the D&D to meet up with other people...

As for ropes, I'm always patient, always say "If you have any questions, let me know now or on facebook/phone" and always encourage players to ask what they don't know. My only demand was that they know their class well and their class features, considering they are eight of them.

I'll ask consult with my players about splitting the groups in 4 members, but I'll keep it in mind.

Jay R
2014-12-15, 12:12 PM
There are players who only play the game at the table. They won't read the books, they won't update character sheets, and they won't make any plans.

Live with this fact. It won't go away.

Red Fel
2014-12-15, 12:20 PM
For role playing on her part is rather... strange. She has this thigh idea about her Half-Orc druid who grew up in the wilds that she can get away with everything ignoring common sense. Attack guards? Sure, why not, for no particular reason. Kill everyone on ship for no reason? Of course. Loot the pirate ship while kobolds are watching? Go for it... (keep in mind, I did say if you pull out a hide check, and sleight of hand, you could steal something of the ship)

It sounds like she's confusing "It's what my character would do" with "It's what my character should do." For a Half-Orc, an outcast descended from a generally-depicted-as-savage race, and one who grew up abandoned in the wilderness, it would make sense that she would be instinctive, brutal, aggressive, and have a lack of common sense or social niceties.

It would make sense that the character be like that. But it would be an untenable character, because animals are generally NPCs, not PCs. If you act like an animal, you eventually lose the right to call your character a PC. These things would make sense for the character, but render it a liability to the party, and ultimately unplayable. She needs to realize that - to know the difference between what her character, as a person, would do, and what she, as her character's player, should do.


I get this feeling she's not into the game, but the sole purpose is to 'use' the D&D to meet up with other people...

Quite possible. TTRPGs are social games, and the larger your group is, the more likely the players may see it as social gaming with an emphasis on "social," rather than with an emphasis on "gaming."

And there's nothing wrong with that. I've been in groups that are 90% gaming, 10% social, and groups that are 30% gaming, 70% social. What works for the group works for the group. But if you and the players are expecting a game that is more gaming than social, and she expects the other way around, it's important to talk it out and figure out what everyone's priorities are.


I'll ask consult with my players about splitting the groups in 4 members, but I'll keep it in mind.

Let us know how it goes. I think communication is the most important thing here; hopefully, it should all work out for the better.

As an aside, Jay makes a good point. Even if she becomes serious about the game, this player - or indeed, other players - may never accept "homework" from a tabletop game. Perhaps they resent the idea, perhaps they get distracted, perhaps they're just too busy. Some will never address the game when they leave the table. One way to handle this is to set up pre-session meetings, where the player comes by, and you sit down and hash out details. When you know certain players are going to have this issue, meeting with them in advance to cover basics and offer assistance in a face-to-face setting is a good way to avoid the problems that may arise from someone who hasn't done the assigned reading.

Palegreenpants
2014-12-15, 01:12 PM
Oh, I totally sympathize with the OP. I frequently find that I care way more about the game than my players do. Its a social event for many of them, and an innate flaw in large groups.

Tyris1013
2014-12-15, 01:32 PM
We'll probably end our D&D game/campaign because nobody wants to split the groups, without even giving a second thought how hard is it to manage eight people with their constant bickering *sigh*

It's just peachy when you have eight people and they want to play altogether -.-'

I don't think its worth the bother considering all the hassle just for 'cheesy D&D play' - hell, if we want simple social interactions, lets just go to the bar...

I don't know how much should DM provide, but what I do is provide a meeting at my place always, simple snacks and drinks (very rarely somebody brings something), print out important stuff such as market or DM note and maps, prepare the meeting and cleanup afterwards, in between reread stuff I'd need for everyone to know, finish up details for session such as NPCs, events, prepare ambient music and mood, figures.

Oh, and they often asked me can they leave their dices and sheets at my place. *sigh*

So yeah, anyone had situations like these or am I alone?

Vitruviansquid
2014-12-15, 03:25 PM
1. This idea involves giving your player the benefit of the doubt and being nice - Gamers of all stripes often forget just how much niche knowledge you need to successfully communicate in a game. It's perfectly reasonable for someone not acquainted with gaming to not really understand what to expect out of an encounter with soldiers at a barracks (or even know what "barracks" really means) especially when you're talking about a weird, made-up, fantasy barracks in a fantasy society. It is also difficult to understand what cues you need to follow in a game if you're not a gamer. There's sort of an unspoken rule that, as powerful as the player characters get, they can never oppose authority figures like the fantasy police (whether they be guards or soldiers or some kind of militia or actual police or a sea captain). There is also, of course, the implicit assumption that the heroes should never turn on NPC's who would be vital in a MUD or MMORPG context - shopkeepers, ship captains, kings, princes, and town councils, and so on. There is a possibility that your player isn't just terminally dense, she merely can't figure out the cues you're trying to give her that really only work for gamers. There's also the chance that she's taking the wrong cues - in a lot of fantasy literature, heroes do what we would consider stupid crap, but it works because they're heroes. The witty, running joke in heroic fantasy literature is that victory comes with being defined as the hero, rather than the hero having to do anything great or intelligent ("How'd you beat the dark lord and his entire army single-handedly?" "Well, I'm the hero, aren't I?")

Of course, there's also the chance that your player is right now posting on some RPG forum, saying how her DM won't let her express her character, who was raised in the wild and unaccustomed to civilized living - and there's a forum full of sympathetic responses talking about how the DM needs to work with the player to tell a cooperative story, or the DM shouldn't make guardsmen or ship captains act like this or that in order to railroad players to do whatever he wants, and so on and so forth.

2. This idea involves trusting your gut - At my table, I'm fairly lax about all concepts that you'd file under "playing well." You don't have to play well at my table because being at my table means we're friends, so we can bull**** around and have fun in lieu of serious business drama writing or serious business method acting. But if we're not friends or you don't like bull****ting around with us, you're not welcome to hang out and constantly mock us or sabotage us. Not even reading the ten relevant pages of the PHB suggests that your player doesn't really want to play, and never really wanted to play in the first place. Her subsequent behavior shows that she feels it is fair to take her resentment toward this game out on all the other players while in this game.

Disabuse her of that notion.

Of course, you'll look like a real big jerk if you misjudged the situation, and the process of doing this probably won't be that pleasant, but the group shouldn't allow a cancerous player into their midst.

Jay R
2014-12-15, 07:48 PM
As an aside, Jay makes a good point. Even if she becomes serious about the game, this player - or indeed, other players - may never accept "homework" from a tabletop game. Perhaps they resent the idea, perhaps they get distracted, perhaps they're just too busy. Some will never address the game when they leave the table. One way to handle this is to set up pre-session meetings, where the player comes by, and you sit down and hash out details. When you know certain players are going to have this issue, meeting with them in advance to cover basics and offer assistance in a face-to-face setting is a good way to avoid the problems that may arise from someone who hasn't done the assigned reading.

One of my DMs gives bonus experience points for showing up on time with a completely updated character sheet.

My experience is that this doesn't fix the problem. It merely gives me bonus experience points. But at least that makes it less annoying for me.

Faily
2014-12-15, 08:07 PM
I personally get annoyed with players who cannot remember their class abilities, spells, special abilities, etc, and end up stalling game time because of it. Though a part of me have just come to accept it with some players. Goodness knows I too from time to time need to doublecheck some things myself, but I try my best to check this when it's not my turn in combat. Some players though will just be unable to do "homework" for tabletop, or to ever remember information. I know a guy who played D&D way before I did, and started with 3rd edition before I had even started playing roleplaying games (10 or so years for me), and yet still needs to be told how Spell DCs work, casting defensively mechanics in 3.5, and a smattering of other things. In a way, it makes me a bit frustrated in that I as a newer player than him know the system much better than one who has played it longer. :smalltongue:


Second part of problem is that my player lack creativity/imagination. They can't think of what to do, or how to solve the problem, while I can think of many ways. Has anyone ran into this problem?

Sometimes, it could also be because the GM view things differently than the players. As the GM, you have all the facts on your side. Players on the other hand only have what the GM lets them know, and sometimes we all fail in communication (either in relaying or understanding) and don't get the full picture. Plenty of times have I experienced that players have a completely different view of things than what was actually the case, and this often can lead to lack of ideas to solve a particular problem.

Tyris1013
2014-12-15, 09:21 PM
One of my DMs gives bonus experience points for showing up on time with a completely updated character sheet.

My experience is that this doesn't fix the problem. It merely gives me bonus experience points. But at least that makes it less annoying for me.

Aye, we run the something like that as well, but also doesn't have much of an impact however, sadly.


I personally get annoyed with players who cannot remember their class abilities, spells, special abilities, etc, and end up stalling game time because of it. Though a part of me have just come to accept it with some players. Goodness knows I too from time to time need to doublecheck some things myself, but I try my best to check this when it's not my turn in combat. Some players though will just be unable to do "homework" for tabletop, or to ever remember information. I know a guy who played D&D way before I did, and started with 3rd edition before I had even started playing roleplaying games (10 or so years for me), and yet still needs to be told how Spell DCs work, casting defensively mechanics in 3.5, and a smattering of other things. In a way, it makes me a bit frustrated in that I as a newer player than him know the system much better than one who has played it longer. :smalltongue:


Sometimes, it could also be because the GM view things differently than the players. As the GM, you have all the facts on your side. Players on the other hand only have what the GM lets them know, and sometimes we all fail in communication (either in relaying or understanding) and don't get the full picture. Plenty of times have I experienced that players have a completely different view of things than what was actually the case, and this often can lead to lack of ideas to solve a particular problem.

I hear and feel you... I'm often tell my players "write it down however you like on back of your character sheet or somewhere else just so you know what it does" - same goes for spell DC or bonus, showing everyone the formula so they can write it down :)

Its not that I mind explaining things, its just that it stops the game, breaks the mood and disrupts concentration. Especially if you have to repeat it again...

So I wonder should the DM's host a game for players who don't give a damn about the game too much? I have mixed responses from my players. Some want to play, some play just for the gathering. And I dislike the idea wasting time and effort on people who's not interested in game opposed to others so that I may devote more time to them instead.

As for scenery, I try my best to describe what's going on and I encourage players to ask me questions about scenery or even add their own wishes/ideas they'd like to see/add. But its not the problem weather they can see or not, they just don't have ideas what to do unless I give them a specific quest that they must complete.

goto124
2014-12-16, 02:23 AM
Not even reading the ten relevant pages of the PHB suggests that your player doesn't really want to play, and never really wanted to play in the first place.

As a newbie, where are those pages?

Thrawn4
2014-12-16, 06:25 AM
Aye, we run the something like that as well, but also doesn't have much of an impact however, sadly.
I'm often tell my players "write it down however you like on back of your character sheet or somewhere else just so you know what it does"

So I wonder should the DM's host a game for players who don't give a damn about the game too much?

they just don't have ideas what to do unless I give them a specific quest that they must complete.

It is not a good idea to solve OOC problems by IC means. Talk to your players and explain them that their slacking impedes the atmosphere. That's how I solved the problem.

I think it would be very frustrating if you put a lot of effort into your campaign and half of the players are more interested in beer and pretzels. I mean, there are actually systems for this kind of game. Basically, talk to your players again. Maybe it helps if you all meet an hour before so you can just talk and have fun before you start the game.

Players do eventually learn. If they have trouble to improvise, challenge them step by step. For example, offer them a problem and two possible solutions (bribe the bartender or lie to him). Next time, offer them two solutions with a minor gap (e. g. who is lying to the bartender?). Slowly widen the gap during the next problems (what is the lie? how do we get this gullible bartender to trust us?) until they are ready for an open scenario (We should find out more about this incident at the bar).

goto124
2014-12-16, 07:00 AM
So I wonder should the DM's host a game for players who don't give a damn about the game too much? I have mixed responses from my players. Some want to play, some play just for the gathering. And I dislike the idea wasting time and effort on people who's not interested in game opposed to others so that I may devote more time to them instead.


I think it would be very frustrating if you put a lot of effort into your campaign and half of the players are more interested in beer and pretzels.

Any reason that these 2 types of people must play together?

Aedilred
2014-12-16, 07:32 AM
As a newbie, where are those pages?
I believe they're referring to the pages referring to the character's race and class (and other basic character details). Obviously which specific pages will depend on which race and class are being played.


Any reason that these 2 types of people must play together?
Usually, because it's unavoidable. As with so many things in life, unfortunately the obvious, easy, "correct" option that will actually solve the problem ("boot the player"; "find a new group") isn't always, or even often, available. You have players who are in a relationship and so want to play together, even though as players they're incompatible - including the couple where one half doesn't really want to play at all; the guy who's terrible at the table but owns all the books/has to give the other players a lift; the group are all friends IRL and don't want to be split up/kick their friend out/etc. and so on. All sorts of annoying real-life complications that get in the way of an enjoyable gaming experience.

In this instance it seems that Tyris suggested splitting the group into two more manageable parts and the players didn't want that. Unfortunately, you can't force them; if you try, you'll probably lose the group. While the GM is nominally all-powerful, that only applies so long as the rules are in effect.

Tyris1013
2014-12-16, 10:18 AM
As a newbie, where are those pages?

I borrow my player's the handbook and instruct them which chapters and pages to read, along with background depending which race and class they are. After that I've reserved one of my days for all of them for their character creation, should they be confused about something or have any questions and/or need advice about something. Wanted to avoid character creation all of them at the same time considering there's eight of us.

But considering they're also newbies, that's all I tell them to read. I explain how combat works, how spells work and that they can read it as a bonus if they want, but don't have to. Feats are also a bonus if you're using variant rule, which we are.


It is not a good idea to solve OOC problems by IC means. Talk to your players and explain them that their slacking impedes the atmosphere. That's how I solved the problem.

I think it would be very frustrating if you put a lot of effort into your campaign and half of the players are more interested in beer and pretzels. I mean, there are actually systems for this kind of game. Basically, talk to your players again. Maybe it helps if you all meet an hour before so you can just talk and have fun before you start the game.

Players do eventually learn. If they have trouble to improvise, challenge them step by step. For example, offer them a problem and two possible solutions (bribe the bartender or lie to him). Next time, offer them two solutions with a minor gap (e. g. who is lying to the bartender?). Slowly widen the gap during the next problems (what is the lie? how do we get this gullible bartender to trust us?) until they are ready for an open scenario (We should find out more about this incident at the bar).

Very good advice. But somehow I think it would backfire. On many occasions I've hinted this and told them that better preparation is needed, but they just 'don't have the time'. Oh, and we're all round 22-24 years old. So if one of my players who's working at the university, does math instructions, trains archery and god knows what else has time to study his dwarf fighter and make notes well enough to impress me (Even better, he made a copy of DM screen for himself to reference whenever he needed), and other players who have even less work to do say they don't have time to invest in their character... *facepalm*

As for meeting ahead, we always do meet before we start. This previous session lasted up to two hours of preparation and chit chat.


I believe they're referring to the pages referring to the character's race and class (and other basic character details). Obviously which specific pages will depend on which race and class are being played.


Usually, because it's unavoidable. As with so many things in life, unfortunately the obvious, easy, "correct" option that will actually solve the problem ("boot the player"; "find a new group") isn't always, or even often, available. You have players who are in a relationship and so want to play together, even though as players they're incompatible - including the couple where one half doesn't really want to play at all; the guy who's terrible at the table but owns all the books/has to give the other players a lift; the group are all friends IRL and don't want to be split up/kick their friend out/etc. and so on. All sorts of annoying real-life complications that get in the way of an enjoyable gaming experience.

In this instance it seems that Tyris suggested splitting the group into two more manageable parts and the players didn't want that. Unfortunately, you can't force them; if you try, you'll probably lose the group. While the GM is nominally all-powerful, that only applies so long as the rules are in effect.

Bingo, he's dead on. Now, unfortunately I'm the one in a stalemate.

Knaight
2014-12-16, 10:56 AM
Part of the problem is that the player is still adapting to the kind of game you're playing. Part of the problem is that you have a nine person group, which is ridiculously huge. It's much easier to get a grip on the game when you don't have seven other players who are likely more experienced influencing it.

Splitting into two groups (1 of 5, 1 of 4, including GMs) is recommended here. That does require finding someone else willing to GM. I don't know the group dynamic, sometimes that sort of thing is really easy, other times it's near impossible.

With all of that said, it does kind of sound like this particular player doesn't actually want to play, and is in the game for some other reason. Maybe she used to want to play and now feels some sort of weird obligation to not leave, maybe a friend dragged her to the game in the first place, maybe she enjoys other RPGs and feels like she should enjoy this one and should stay. Maybe she thinks leaving will hurt your feelings as the GM and doesn't want to do that. All of those are oddly common reasons among people. It might be worth just asking if she's even enjoying this particular game, and doing it in such a way that you get across your not minding if she leaves.


There are players who only play the game at the table. They won't read the books, they won't update character sheets, and they won't make any plans.

Live with this fact. It won't go away.

Exactly this.

With that said, it is something that can be worked around. Some games are clearly made under the assumption that everyone read the rules, and will be a total pain to GM otherwise, avoid these. Some games are easy to run when you're the only one who knows the rules, aim for those. My current group is me, plus four people who haven't read the rules for the game I'm GMing, and me, one person who's read the rules (the GM), and three people who haven't read the rules for the game I'm playing in (it's the same group of people). It's also a Fudge game that I'm GMing, so this causes no problems whatsoever. It's rules light, and more than that it's pretty intuitive.

Thrawn4
2014-12-16, 02:16 PM
On many occasions I've hinted this and told them that better preparation is needed, but they just 'don't have the time'.

Just to be clear: You are talking about preparation before the game rather than IC preparation, right?
Especially to a newbie, reading 10 pages of something that is new to this person can translate to homework that you are supposed to do. Maybe you should just tell them the gist of their race and hand them a summary of the most important rules. Ease them into the process rather than force them – and I realize that you already do a lot to help them, but new players usually know nothing about the workload for the DM and only see their own one.
If I was mistaken and you were talking about IC prep aka making a plan, this player clearly does not enjoy the same things as you.

Knaight
2014-12-16, 06:01 PM
Especially to a newbie, reading 10 pages of something that is new to this person can translate to homework that you are supposed to do. Maybe you should just tell them the gist of their race and hand them a summary of the most important rules. Ease them into the process rather than force them – and I realize that you already do a lot to help them, but new players usually know nothing about the workload for the DM and only see their own one.

Plus, it involves hunting through hundreds of pages. For RPG veterans, it doesn't look like much. Even for people who play more complex board games, that's on the heavier side. Then there's the matter of the writing quality.

goto124
2014-12-17, 12:46 AM
People faced with so many words to read, can resort to 'just play the game and find out along the way', which means depending on the other players to tell them when they need it. It's easier to learn this way, since they can absorb small bits of information whenever they're in the relevant situations, but it also means having patient players who're willing to teach them.

How that goes for a group of 8 people who refuse to split up, I'm not sure.

Aedilred
2014-12-17, 05:51 AM
People faced with so many words to read, can resort to 'just play the game and find out along the way', which means depending on the other players to tell them when they need it. It's easier to learn this way, since they can absorb small bits of information whenever they're in the relevant situations, but it also means having patient players who're willing to teach them.

How that goes for a group of 8 people who refuse to split up, I'm not sure.

It also relies on those players - i.e. the ones who don't want to do the reading - doing their bit. I'd rather they just did the reading so they knew what was expected of them, but I've played with people who haven't, or who did the reading but can't internalise the details and need to look things up or ask questions all the time. I can cope with that, so long as they're aware of their own ignorance and they're willing to allow themselves to be guided by other players. When you have a player who won't do the necessary reading to be self-sufficient but also won't listen to other players/the GM, that's when you have a problem - and all too often those people are one and the same.

hifidelity2
2014-12-18, 05:21 AM
'Ello,

Looking for second opinion on topic cause I'm second doubting myself as a DM regarding my players.

I'm running a campaign with eight people atm. While its not hard, the constant interrupting of players by other players is bit of a problem which I'm working on...


So here's the question to you. Would you be upset if a player would come to your session without know what their class can do after you reminded everyone to read and take notes of their features?


Well for me (other than total newbies) you can play a character class that you understand. If I have a person new the RPing joining a group I will generally get them to roll up a fighter as they are the simplest class to play. If they wnat to play something complex then they need to understand the complexities of the system.

Also if you have experienced players can you not have one of them take her under their wing and help her with her character (skills ,spells etc)



Second part of problem is that my player lack creativity/imagination. They can't think of what to do, or how to solve the problem, while I can think of many ways. Has anyone ran into this problem?


All DM’s, and in my group most of us take turns DMing, complain that the party has walked right past the plot and not seen the “Obvious” signs / solved it the obvious way– I am afraid that is just the way of the world and to me is ˝ of the fun (both as a DM and a player)





Speaking of which, the same player - who is Half-Orc druid, always pulls strange moves in my session that just leaves me confused and speechless. Her wisdom and intelligence is not of negative values (16 wis, 12 int, so her character is not that clueless)



The Characters WIZ / INT maybe that high, the PLAYERS WIZ /INT may well be a lot lower!!





She went to the city barracks, two guardsman greeted her asking what she wants. She wanted to go down to the catacombs without her friends, leaving them behind. The soldiers declined her request because they do not have approval of their Captain to let her down there. So she gets all mad demanding to let her down there because she wants to speed up the game so they can finish their objective as soon as possible (basically rushing the game...) eventually she pulls out her sword on the guards and the guards react on this as assault. I'm stunned and say.. "Well, ok... Roll initiative" then all of a sudden she's upset why does she have to roll for initiative, can't she just hit them first while they just stand there? At this point I didn't know where to begin with... I just replied "Well... What do you think happens when you draw your swords on guards"? And basically after that I had to explain how initiative works ect...


Actually I would have given her 1 “free hit” – they are surprised after all and then gone into combat wounds





Ooooh, but lets not forget the best part. The 5 minutes after they've boarded the ship, she brought up this crazy idea that they should just kill the crew and take the ship for their own. Now that really blown my ****ing mind.

Because of the whole 'hijacking' idea/conspiracy plot she was discussing among party members, but not everyone agreed, I've brought up with curse of the seas, sending in Sea Viper to assault the ship. It's similar concept to the rule when you invite someone to their home, offer them hospitality, you don't kill them unless you want bad luck on you... Same with boat hijacking. The pirates were transporting them willingly, she had no reason to kill them in the first place.



Actually my party would probably want to do that – however the warning of abusing hospitality is a good one – but if they still do it then on their head be it

Knaight
2014-12-18, 12:19 PM
Actually I would have given her 1 “free hit” – they are surprised after all and then gone into combat wounds.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. A good way to model this would be something like a bonus on the initiative check, but by core rules that isn't really there. Which basically means that someone who didn't know the system tried to do something, and then the system made the results pretty bizarre - this is always obnoxious.

goto124
2014-12-18, 12:26 PM
..........

Lord Torath
2014-12-18, 05:46 PM
Whenever your half-orc girl decides to try something crazy, before letting her carry them out, ask her what she expects the long-term consequences of her character's action to be. Be ready to give her a likely set of consequences based on what her character knows (if you attack the guards, if you kill them both, someone will look into their deaths. If there are any witnesses, you're likely to be thrown in prison and executed. If you don;t kill both guards, you'll probably never be welcome in town again. If you betray the kobolds' hospitality, you'll be cursed by the sea god of manners, and you will never make a casual sea voyage again. Plus, the kobolds will dogpile you, truss you up, and toss you overboard. And if you kill them all, how will you sail the ship? It takes more than 8 people to man a large ship, after all).

zinycor
2014-12-18, 05:47 PM
I have played many games and i have never read the rulebooks before the first 2 sessions, most of the times we end up throwing the games away after 2 sessions so if the DM is the only one who has read th game that's ok. after more sessions i read the manual many times but that is because i am invested in the game and my character.


And now this last session when they're all on a boat traveling to certain island which they have quest by a ship of kobold pirates led by human captain (long story). She kept looking/asking where to loot the ship, where to enter a ship just so she would get something. I wasn't aware that D&D was a looting based game? Besides that, its a pirate ship... And she wanted to loot it while bunch of kobold pirates are aware of her actions, what the heck?

Ooooh, but lets not forget the best part. The 5 minutes after they've boarded the ship, she brought up this crazy idea that they should just kill the crew and take the ship for their own. Now that really blown my ****ing mind.


I really don't see the problem with this, if they want to try to kill the captain and his crew, let them try, after all is a pirate ship, they know how to defend themselves, let the players attempt to kill the pirates and let them fail at it, and if they win, welll good for them, after all, if they succed it would be because they have knowledge of the systems in the game (or even better, come up with an effective plan) and would end up with a ship for them (If they don't have someone with navigation skills they will be in a lo of problems if they win the fight in open seas, so it could be a lot of fun. and.... Isn't DnD a looting based system? whenever I play or I DM 50% of all the things the characters do is to get more loot, and with good reason, loot can be amazing, much more than any level up, because you get the loot now, no need to work had to get it. I feel that you just loved your pirates a bit too much n this one.



Because of the whole 'hijacking' idea/conspiracy plot she was discussing among party members, but not everyone agreed, I've brought up with curse of the seas, sending in Sea Viper to assault the ship. It's similar concept to the rule when you invite someone to their home, offer them hospitality, you don't kill them unless you want bad luck on you... Same with boat hijacking. The pirates were transporting them willingly, she had no reason to kill them in the first place.


Well, sometimes characters just want to kill someone, I myself have killed my fair share of NPCs with no better reason than "He annoys me", of course you should tell the player that i may shoft her alignment or that it doesn't make a lot of sense for a loving druid to kill someone just because, but maybe it does, maybe she is a feral Druid or a very resentfull one. I say let them try. Just enjoy with them as you show them what you can do with mastery of the rules.


Eventually someone stole the tobacco on ship, forcing Captain to come out of his cabin and first thing she does when everyone gathered on top deck is walk up to him so she could charm her (regardless that she didn't hear me that charm has 30 feet range...) so that she would surprised that kobolds overwhelmed her, pinning her to the ground. And after that she would argue with me "No! I didn't want that to happen, bring it back to the point where they didn't ambush me so I can charm him"

well, this has never happened to me XD, but as others have said, this is not a video game and you should let the players (especially newbie players) how the game goes, this thing in particular ight just have happened because someone told the player that, "Is just a like a vdeo game, but with other people", Which is a very common depiction. As a Dm, you must talk with your players about what you expect from the game and specially about this set of "rules". (As a side note, żthe kobolds pinned her? they are pirates they should just kill her, if only to show that the pirate is the king in his ship)


During the boss sea viper battle and initiative roll, she said she doesn't want to fight... I just stared at her, luckily my other player said 'roll anyway so we have the list, in case you want to do something else' or something like that. Afterwards she throws herself into the water and transforming herself into a fish... (oh yeah, she wanted to wild shape into a sea viper which was way above her challenge rating requirement...

Again, there isn't really a problem with this, if she wanted the pirates to die (After all, they are pirtes, i wouldn't be surprised if they deserved it) and she has a way to flee battle, that's perfectly within her rights to do so.

While i agree with you that this a problematic player, i do feel that you trust a lot that your players will attempt to be heroes, i myself as an experienced player, rarely play heroes, and in more than one ocassion i have had killed people just because. IF you want to have a game where everyone tries his best to be a hero, you need to talk it with your players, and tell them that you aren't willing to have them being evil. (once we had a Dm who had the rule that if your characters goes into evil alignment you lose control of the character same as he would have died, it was pretty effective, he removed the rule only when we (as players) showed that we could play evil or grey alignments with maturity and responsability)

as for everything else on your post, i agree wwith the other posters...

I know that i have defended the problem player a lot on this post, but this i only to encourage you to keep an open mind about what happens on the campaign, you give control to the players over their characters, let them have their fun.