Glaive Ur-Lock

[Mission0]

Buddy of mine is running a campaign, and he's always been talking about his Warlocks so I figured I'd give the class a try. Was told everything is a go minus Book of Exalted Deeds. We're starting out at level 4, but we plan to go all the way to 20. So I went ahead and planned out the character all the way to the end.

Binder 1/Warlock 4/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 5/Hellfire Warlock 3/Eldritch Disciple 5

Flaw: Unreactive
Flaw: Inattentive

Feats by Level:
1st: Combat Expertise
1st: Improved Trip
1st: Practiced Invoker
1st: Malign Spell Focus
3rd: Iron Will
3rd: Travel Devotion
6th: Obtain Familiar
9th: Improved Familiar/Dragon Familiar?

Haven't really thought of what to drop into the other feat selections yet. Was considering Extend Spell, Persist Spell, and Divine Metamagic but thought I'd be going a bit too far with the cheese there.

Yes, I'm aware Eldritch Disciple requires you to worship a god. I've discussed it with the DM and we've agreed that my steeling Divine powers through Ur-Priest is good enough to qualify for the PRC.


Thought this would be an amusing build. Combat would go something like this.
1:Move into the fight using Travel Devotion
2:Activate Eldritch Glaive to attack an opponent in range.
3:Do more than 10 damage, free trip attack from Knock-down

Thoughts, comments, tips, etc?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Initiative is good. Trade out the Unreactive flaw for the 3000 gp trip to the Otyugh Pit (and its gift of the Iron Will feat).
Honestly Combat Reflexes surprises me a little. It makes your build ever more MAD, so I am wondering what your stats look like, especially since you cut one by 2. Without knowing more I cannot say much, but I would cut pathetic for Inattentive. You are unlikely to put ranks into Spot or Listen anyways and will fail those regardless, so might as well protect your general stat pool.

[Rebel7284]

How are you planning to heal hellfire damage?

Most people take a level of binder for Naberous(sp?). It creates some fun diplomancer synergy with the warlock invocation that also boost your social skills. Also gives you the saves you need for Ur Priest as I recall.

DMM Persist would of course be amazing, but it will overshadow anyone else in your party (besides a druid perhaps) who wants to be on the front line, so giving it up may be a good idea.

[Red Fel]

How are you qualifying for Hellfire Warlock, exactly? I think I missed something. You have 3 levels of Warlock, and 2 levels of Eldritch Disciple, which advances invocation level but does not grant you new tiers of invocation. So, you may gain new invocations known, but I don't recall if that means you also gain access to knew levels of invocations (i.e. Lesser Invocations). Even if you did, however, you gain access to Lesser Invocations at Warlock 6; between Warlock and ED, you qualify only as Warlock 5. HFW requires either Hellrime or Brimstone Blast, both of which are Lesser Blast Shapes, to which you don't have access.

And I'm not convinced that Practiced Invoker gets you there, either. If it's anything like Practiced Manifester or Spellcaster, it increases your IL, but it doesn't grant you the appropriate invocations.

[Troacctid]

Prestige classes do give you access to new tiers of invocations.

I have a hard time seeing an extra 2d6 being better than a full spell level. I don't know about delaying Ur-Priest casting for Hellfire Warlock. Spellcasting is amazingly good; HFW is just more damage. And as mentioned above, you don't qualify for HFW yet at that level anyway.

Everyone always suggests that silly Binder dip, but I don't see why. You can easily heal the Con damage with wands or rods of bodily restoration. A few thousand gp is not worth losing a caster level. Although in your case, since you need the base Fort for Ur-Priest, it could definitely be worth losing a Fighter level. Or two. Warlock 4/Binder 1 is a pretty nice Ur-Priest entry, probably better than a couple Fighter bonus feats. And you're already delaying greater invocations by at least three levels, and that hurts a lot--you really want that Vitriolic Blast. Spell resistance can shut you down hard otherwise.

[Mission0]

Initiative is good. Trade out the Unreactive flaw for the 3000 gp trip to the Otyugh Pit (and its gift of the Iron Will feat).
Honestly Combat Reflexes surprises me a little. It makes your build ever more MAD, so I am wondering what your stats look like, especially since you cut one by 2. Without knowing more I cannot say much, but I would cut pathetic for Inattentive. You are unlikely to put ranks into Spot or Listen anyways and will fail those regardless, so might as well protect your general stat pool.

You make a good point for Inattentive, Pathetic was dropping my Wisdom from 14 to 12. After removing it stats are as stands.

STR: 14, DEX 17, CON 15, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 14.

DM's method for rolling stats was 4D6, drop lowest, re-roll ones. Ended up with some higher stats than average.


How are you planning to heal hellfire damage?

Most people take a level of binder for Naberous(sp?). It creates some fun diplomancer synergy with the warlock invocation that also boost your social skills. Also gives you the saves you need for Ur Priest as I recall.

DMM Persist would of course be amazing, but it will overshadow anyone else in your party (besides a druid perhaps) who wants to be on the front line, so giving it up may be a good idea.

I've seen in other builds people using Binder to make up for the con damage. Honestly though, it seemed like a cheap way to get out of the con damage and when I thought about I could make up the con damage easily with other magical items or possibly our party cleric.


How are you qualifying for Hellfire Warlock, exactly? I think I missed something. You have 3 levels of Warlock, and 2 levels of Eldritch Disciple, which advances invocation level but does not grant you new tiers of invocation. So, you may gain new invocations known, but I don't recall if that means you also gain access to knew levels of invocations (i.e. Lesser Invocations). Even if you did, however, you gain access to Lesser Invocations at Warlock 6; between Warlock and ED, you qualify only as Warlock 5. HFW requires either Hellrime or Brimstone Blast, both of which are Lesser Blast Shapes, to which you don't have access.

And I'm not convinced that Practiced Invoker gets you there, either. If it's anything like Practiced Manifester or Spellcaster, it increases your IL, but it doesn't grant you the appropriate invocations.

Hmm, you may be right there. *Re-reads the PRC and Practiced Spellcaster* Hmm, I guess it depends on how my DM will rule Practiced Spellcaster and how it applies to the Warlock. The general understanding is that it affects Eldritch Blast but after re-reading you're probably right about it not helping with Invocations and i'm not going to make assumptions on behalf of my DM so I'll have to push HFW back a few levels.


Prestige classes do give you access to new tiers of invocations.

I have a hard time seeing an extra 2d6 being better than a full spell level. I don't know about delaying Ur-Priest casting for Hellfire Warlock. Spellcasting is amazingly good; HFW is just more damage. And as mentioned above, you don't qualify for HFW yet at that level anyway.

Everyone always suggests that silly Binder dip, but I don't see why. You can easily heal the Con damage with wands or rods of bodily restoration. A few thousand gp is not worth losing a caster level. Although in your case, since you need the base Fort for Ur-Priest, it could definitely be worth losing a Fighter level. Or two. Warlock 4/Binder 1 is a pretty nice Ur-Priest entry, probably better than a couple Fighter bonus feats. And you're already delaying greater invocations by at least three levels, and that hurts a lot--you really want that Vitriolic Blast. Spell resistance can shut you down hard otherwise.

As I said earlier, I was avoiding the binder dip because it felt cheap to me. It IS good, I'm just trying to make sure I'm good enough to deal some damage without completely out-shining other party members. Also I couldn't think of a reasonable character reason for that kind of 1 level dip.
You're right though, I'm delaying invocations quite a bit as is. I'll have to think on that a bit more.

Thoughts on the changes?

[Rebel7284]

Getting out of Con damage with items can of course be done easily by that level, but it typically takes actions. If the combat takes several rounds to resolve, this can be a serious drawback ESPECIALLY if you are on the front line and your build having a bunch of low HD classes.

Binder also has additional benefits.
1. There are a few corrupt spells that are fairly powerful for their level. Having access to those without a drawback is nice.
2. Some of the more dangerous monsters deal ability damage and/or have poison that does. Being immune to that is nice.
3. Having a high diplomacy score is a great excuse to roleplay more and bend the world with your words without having to use a spell slot!
4. At early level, before you get Hellfire Warlock, binder offers some nice day to day flexibility by allowing you to bind different vestiges.

With that said, I don't think it's broken. It's useful and saves you a few spell slots and cash here and there, but it doesn't give any tier changing abilities.

[Mission0]

Getting out of Con damage with items can of course be done easily by that level, but it typically takes actions. If the combat takes several rounds to resolve, this can be a serious drawback ESPECIALLY if you are on the front line and your build having a bunch of low HD classes.

Binder also has additional benefits.
1. There are a few corrupt spells that are fairly powerful for their level. Having access to those without a drawback is nice.
2. Some of the more dangerous monsters deal ability damage and/or have poison that does. Being immune to that is nice.
3. Having a high diplomacy score is a great excuse to roleplay more and bend the world with your words without having to use a spell slot!
4. At early level, before you get Hellfire Warlock, binder offers some nice day to day flexibility by allowing you to bind different vestiges.

With that said, I don't think it's broken. It's useful and saves you a few spell slots and cash here and there, but it doesn't give any tier changing abilities.

Ok you've talked me into it. If my understanding of binder is correct, it's kinda like a summoner but more about making pacts than summons. Kinda reminds me of Fairy Tail Celestial Magic.

I'm trying to think of how to fit the Binder into the fluff of the build, I'll think of something for that.

Since I'll be dropping the two fighter classes that requires some feat shuffling. Ugg, the two feats to get into Ur-priest really hurts. They are both nearly useless. Completing the feat tree of what I was going for isn't going to happen till level 9 though. A bit late for my tastes but the spells from Ur-priest combined with Binder should make up for it.

Any suggestions on completing that feat tree earlier, or for the later feats?

[Troacctid]

Using items takes actions, but they don't need to be your actions. That's what familiars are for. Give the rod of bodily restoration to the parrot on your shoulder and let it do the dirty work. Familiars share your UMD ranks too, so they can even use wands.

I do like the Binder dip in this build, though. The fact that you need to multiclass for the Fort save thing makes it a no-brainer IMO, and it's so much better than Fighter. Take it at 1st level for the extra skill points and HP.

For feats, how about Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar? Familiars are sweet.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I will repeat my advice: that Iron Will feat costs 3000 gp. The location is Otyough Hole, sorry, and can be found in Complete Scoundrel. It is pretty much a must have for painless entry into Ur-Priest.

Mortalbane drops off, but because of the way it interacts with Eldritch Glaive it is not atrocious.

[Mission0]

Using items takes actions, but they don't need to be your actions. That's what familiars are for. Give the rod of bodily restoration to the parrot on your shoulder and let it do the dirty work. Familiars share your UMD ranks too, so they can even use wands.

I do like the Binder dip in this build, though. The fact that you need to multiclass for the Fort save thing makes it a no-brainer IMO, and it's so much better than Fighter. Take it at 1st level for the extra skill points and HP.

For feats, how about Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar? Familiars are sweet.

Another good idea. I can see the Familiar being pretty fun for role-play too.


I will repeat my advice: that Iron Will feat costs 3000 gp. The location is Otyough Hole, sorry, and can be found in Complete Scoundrel. It is pretty much a must have for painless entry into Ur-Priest.

Mortalbane drops off, but because of the way it interacts with Eldritch Glaive it is not atrocious.

Ah thanks... I'm not sure how I missed that but read the rest of what you said. It's literally the first thing you said in that post. Thanks. It looks good. Now I just have to worry about Spell Focus(evil)/Maligned Spell Focus.

I've been eying Mortalbane as well, the drop off as you say is what is putting me off.

Edit: Shuffled the feats around more to my liking. I think by the time I'd be willing to pick up Mortalbane its usefulness for me would be too diminished to warrant it. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The way it works with glaive lets you have an entire round of +2d6 damage 5/day. Not amazing, but it drops off a lot less on a glaive lock than a blaster lock (with Divine Power and a touch of luck, Mortalbane will average 140 damage a day).

Edit: I changed my mind. I like Mortalbane now... once you get iteratives.

[Rebel7284]

A contemplative dip could give you travel domain that you could then trade for travel devotion. This is a pretty late dip though.

[Mission0]

The way it works with glaive lets you have an entire round of +2d6 damage 5/day. Not amazing, but it drops off a lot less on a glaive lock than a blaster lock (with Divine Power and a touch of luck, Mortalbane will average 140 damage a day).

Edit: I changed my mind. I like Mortalbane now... once you get iteratives.

Good points, I think my only concerns would be when I'm going against things that aren't mortal. I'm tempted to take Empower Spell-like ability. It can be only used twice per day, but for at 20th level that's a +5D6 to Eldritch blast for the round.


A contemplative dip could give you travel domain that you could then trade for travel devotion. This is a pretty late dip though.

Interesting idea, although the entry requirements are a bit finicky and I don't think will fly with my DM and I's current agreement with Ur-Priest. My character doesn't worship any deity, he steals his divine power from them. However Contemplative requires the character to have direct contact with his patron deity, or a direct servant of that deity.

[Rebel7284]

Conteplative



Special:
Must have had direct contact with
one’s patron deity or a direct servant of that
deity, or with an enlightened being embody-
ing the highest principles of an alignment
(a solar, for example)


Go with option B. :)

Make some deals with a pit fiend before entering hellfire warlock. :3

[Mission0]

Conteplative
Go with option B. :)

Make some deals with a pit fiend before entering hellfire warlock. :3

I'll talk it over with the DM. I've quite a bit of time before I can even take the level. I'm not too worried about it though, I prefer Travel Devotion earlier on in order to bounce around at lower levels.

[Optimator]

I generally don't care about fluff requirements for PrCs at all and my group usually glosses over them. We even had a major campaign where one of the PCs was an Warlock Urpriest Eldritch Disciple (with a two-level Chameleon dip) and we used the same reasoning you did--we even said the divine portion of the Chameleon's casting came from the same stolen ur-source. Having said that, I would never allow a Urpriest Contemplative. They're antithetical in my eyes.

[Mission0]

I generally don't care about fluff requirements for PrCs at all and my group usually glosses over them. We even had a major campaign where one of the PCs was an Warlock Urpriest Eldritch Disciple (with a two-level Chameleon dip) and we used the same reasoning you did--we even said the divine portion of the Chameleon's casting came from the save stolen ur-source. Having said that, I would never allow a Urpriest Contemplative. They're antithetical in my eyes.

Same thing I've been thinking.

[Ellowryn]

Looking at your feats on the OP, i understand where you are going with the knockdown feat but to be honest you really just don't have the ability to pull that trick off reliably enough to be worth spending 3 feats on. Without a weapon with the trip ability and a very high strength score you are more likely to be the one tripped due to the way that str/BaB scales on most BBEG's. Divine Metamagic: Persist is a very solid and powerful way to improve your combat ability thanks to your cleric casting, and is what i would recommend.

[Mission0]

Looking at your feats on the OP, i understand where you are going with the knockdown feat but to be honest you really just don't have the ability to pull that trick off reliably enough to be worth spending 3 feats on. Without a weapon with the trip ability and a very high strength score you are more likely to be the one tripped due to the way that str/BaB scales on most BBEG's. Divine Metamagic: Persist is a very solid and powerful way to improve your combat ability thanks to your cleric casting, and is what i would recommend.

Now I think we're getting into RAI vs RAW. RAI, it sounds like you're knocking your opponent over using the force of your blow and it just uses the trip mechanic to help resolve the action. RAW, you are absolutely right and I'll have to take some steps to beef my character to make sure he wins those checks.

Huh, another thing. If RAI holds true, you wouldn't get the extra attack from Improved trip. Also, after some digging it looks like Sword and Fist has some errata about Knock-down. It states.


Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and
successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great
Cleave feats.

So either way, you definitely don't get the extra attack from Improved trip.

Starting to look like I may want to change up the combat concept a bit.

[Red Rubber Band]

Yes, I'm aware Eldritch Disciple requires you to worship a god. I've discussed it with the DM and we've agreed that my steeling Divine powers through Ur-Priest is good enough to qualify for the PRC.

For something more flavourful...

At the end of the opening paragraphs on Ur-Priests it says that they can also be fluffed as worshipping a long forgotten god. Perhaps stealing from the other divine beings to funnel towards their own god's worship.

So you can fit that in with Eldritch Disciple. Ezpz.

However, you can also fit Binder into this thematically. One of the 1st level vestiges is called Amon. He is a god that was forgotten and lost his power.

Ta da.

[Mission0]

For something more flavourful...

At the end of the opening paragraphs on Ur-Priests it says that they can also be fluffed as worshipping a long forgotten god. Perhaps stealing from the other divine beings to funnel towards their own god's worship.

So you can fit that in with Eldritch Disciple. Ezpz.

However, you can also fit Binder into this thematically. One of the 1st level vestiges is called Amon. He is a god that was forgotten and lost his power.

Ta da.

Yep, came across that gem while researching the build a bit. My current fluff is that he just plain hates gods. I can still see merit in your suggestion though, something about learning methods to enslave gods perhaps?

Thanks for the incite.

[Red Rubber Band]

Yep, came across that gem while researching the build a bit. My current fluff is that he just plain hates gods. I can still see merit in your suggestion though, something about learning methods to enslave gods perhaps?

Thanks for the incite.

There is that Dwarf chick who is extremely greedy (I think she's 1st level). It could be interesting if, until Naberius got a hold of your character, that you played the 1st level vestiges as voices in your head. Pushing you one way then another.

Her greed could lead you to wanting more power. Amon is the god that shows you how to take divine power. And Naberius ends up sweet talking you, coincidentally of course, when you take your first level of Hellfire :smalltongue:

[Mission0]

There is that Dwarf chick who is extremely greedy (I think she's 1st level). It could be interesting if, until Naberius got a hold of your character, that you played the 1st level vestiges as voices in your head. Pushing you one way then another.

Her greed could lead you to wanting more power. Amon is the god that shows you how to take divine power. And Naberius ends up sweet talking you, coincidentally of course, when you take your first level of Hellfire :smalltongue:

Ooo. I like you, you can stay. Love that idea.


Also, I've been playing around with feinting a bit for the build. Don't think it's going to work out since the best I can do is feinting is a move action at best and the Glaive-lock requires a full-attack action to attack. I was looking at the Insightful feint spell a bit, it provides a +10 insight bonus on the next Bluff check to feint in combat, and turns the feint into a move action or a free action if you have Improved Feint. Combine this with Naberius's for his ability to take 10 on bluffs even in combat, the Warlock's naturally higher than normal Bluff, plus a few ranks in bluff. Has the potential to be interesting at least, I'm not sure how useful it will actually be though. I already get the touch attack, the touch attack + denying my opponent dex may not be that useful.

Edit: Figured out how to pull it off, there are divine spells that allow you to mimic weaker Arcane spells. Going to give a try, if nothing else it'll be amusing.

[Necroticplague]

Also of note is to be careful when looking at what things interact. A lot of stuff turns interacts in very specific ways, which disallows a lot of combinations. Like Hellfire Warlock and Eldritch Glaive.

And on a side note, the binder dip seems a bit much. It helps you keep up your CON score from Hellfire blast, but only at a rate of 1/turn. A Strongheart Vest only costs a feat, which you said you have to spare, while also allowing you to use it without having any kind of fluctuation on your CON at all.

[atemu1234]

Also of note is to be careful when looking at what things interact. A lot of stuff turns interacts in very specific ways, which disallows a lot of combinations. Like Hellfire Warlock and Eldritch Glaive.

And on a side note, the binder dip seems a bit much. It helps you keep up your CON score from Hellfire blast, but only at a rate of 1/turn. A Strongheart Vest only costs a feat, which you said you have to spare, while also allowing you to use it without having any kind of fluctuation on your CON at all.

Do your blasting right, and that might be all the boost you need. Maybe throw in a wand of lesser restoration.

[Mission0]

Also of note is to be careful when looking at what things interact. A lot of stuff turns interacts in very specific ways, which disallows a lot of combinations. Like Hellfire Warlock and Eldritch Glaive.

And on a side note, the binder dip seems a bit much. It helps you keep up your CON score from Hellfire blast, but only at a rate of 1/turn. A Strongheart Vest only costs a feat, which you said you have to spare, while also allowing you to use it without having any kind of fluctuation on your CON at all.

I don't see anything in the text of either that says you can't use a Hellfire Blast while using a Hellfire glaive.

Also, I can't use Strongheart vest. Strongheart Vest protects you from ability damage. The con hit is a cost, not damage.


Do your blasting right, and that might be all the boost you need. Maybe throw in a wand of lesser restoration.

Yep, folks were suggesting that combined with a familiar would be a good way to go too.

[Red Rubber Band]

And on a side note, the binder dip seems a bit much. It helps you keep up your CON score from Hellfire blast, but only at a rate of 1/turn. A Strongheart Vest only costs a feat, which you said you have to spare, while also allowing you to use it without having any kind of fluctuation on your CON at all.

He needs to dip anyway to reach the +3 Fort saves.

[Necroticplague]

I don't see anything in the text of either that says you can't use a Hellfire Blast while using a Hellfire glaive. Then allow me to point them out for you:

Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast.

If you hit, your target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast)
A person you smack with your Eldritch Glaive is effected as if by your Eldritch blast, not as if by your Hellfire Blast.


Also, I can't use Strongheart vest. Strongheart Vest protects you from ability damage. The con hit is a cost, not damage.


Huh? are we reading the same ability?

Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution
damage.Seems pretty clear that its ability damage, since it doesn't mention anything about a cost anywhere in the ability.

[Honjuden]

I have always treated hellfire blast as a blast essence. The example text on page 9 of Complete Arcane uses similar phrasing for it's example of a blast essence. "Morthos, a 1st level warlock, decides to make his eldritch blast attack into a frightful blast."

[Mission0]

Huh? are we reading the same ability?
Seems pretty clear that its ability damage, since it doesn't mention anything about a cost anywhere in the ability.

It was addressed in a D&D faq. Give me a sec... ah, and found the link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a). Main D&D faq, very last page.


Would the strongheart vest soulmeld (MoI 89) protect you from the ability damage of the hellfire warlock’s hellfire blast ability (FCII 90)?

The strongheart vest soulmeld reduces the amount of ability damage you receive from an attack; however, it does not keep you safe from the costs of hellfire blast because the ability damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.

As for the Hellfire blast ruling, it seems to be a toss up between RAW and RAI. I'll leave it to my DM to decide it. Personally, I'd allow it because by the RAW logic the Hellfire Blast can't have any essences or shapes applied to it because the Warlock section on invocations specifically says Eldritch Blast.

[Honjuden]

All of the blast essences say they change eldritch blast into ____ blast. This strongly indicates that hellfire blast is a blast essence that can be used with blast shapes.

[Troacctid]

It's explicitly stated that hellfire blast can be combined with blast shapes, so I don't see where the confusion is coming from there.

[Mission0]

It's explicitly stated that hellfire blast can be combined with blast shapes, so I don't see where the confusion is coming from there.

This combined with the previous post about every blast shape / essence refers to it as "eldritch blase" makes me agree.

[torrasque666]

It was addressed in a D&D faq. Give me a sec... ah, and found the link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a). Main D&D faq, very last page.

Bah. I'm finally getting on the "FAQ is stupid" bandwagon. That's just ridiculous. It doesn't say "Any time you would take ability damage from an attack, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0." It just says "Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0." Note the "ANY TIME" bit.

[Mission0]

Bah. I'm finally getting on the "FAQ is stupid" bandwagon. That's just ridiculous. It doesn't say "Any time you would take ability damage from an attack, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0." It just says "Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0." Note the "ANY TIME" bit.

Heh, I think the point is that in order to use the Hellfire ability that you need to take the ability damage. However the vest is preventing you from doing so.

This is how I'm interpreting it at least.

Anyways, any other suggestions for the glaive lock? Otherwise I think we're done here.

[Rebel7284]

Eldrich Disciple only loses a single caster level, right?

If that's the case, the build in your first post is progressing Ur Priest casting to 11.

[Mission0]

Eldrich Disciple only loses a single caster level, right?

If that's the case, the build in your first post is progressing Ur Priest casting to 11.

Correct, I won't be out casting any of the pure casters. However, I'll have 9th lvl spells by the end of it.

[Necroticplague]

Heh, I think the point is that in order to use the Hellfire ability that you need to take the ability damage. However the vest is preventing you from doing so.

You're wrong on both accounts.

The ability doesn't work that you take the damage, then get the damage boost. It's that both of those happen at once. So you don't need to reduce your CON at all to use it, you just are effected by the damage.

And lastly, the vest doesn't prevent you from taking the damage. You do take the ability damage. It just gets reduced to zero. Not taking the damage would be being immune to it, which the ability already says disqualifies you from using it.

[Mission0]

You're wrong on both accounts.

The ability doesn't work that you take the damage, then get the damage boost. It's that both of those happen at once. So you don't need to reduce your CON at all to use it, you just are effected by the damage.

And lastly, the vest doesn't prevent you from taking the damage. You do take the ability damage. It just gets reduced to zero. Not taking the damage would be being immune to it, which the ability already says disqualifies you from using it.

Are you ignoring the D&D faq that I linked?

[torrasque666]

Are you ignoring the D&D faq that I linked?
Yeah.... most people here don't consider the FAQ valid as it comes from Customer Service rather than the game designers. Paizo's FAQ comes from the designers themselves and is actually errata.

[phlidwsn]

Note that the vest vs Hellfire blast has been debated over and over on these forums, and there is no clear consensus on if it should work as written or not. Your Hellfire curative options come down to the following:

Take the feat for the vest. Cheapest option, but the most controversial. Verify with your DM first.
Binder: One level of binder solves it with no ambiguity whatsoever, costs a class level, but not the end of the world with an Ur-Lock given it helps you reach your save prereq for Ur-Priest
Rod of Bodily Restoration, wielded by you or a familiar. Just costs gold and actions.
Lesser Restoration either from you or the party cleric.

[Mission0]

Yeah.... most people here don't consider the FAQ valid as it comes from Customer Service rather than the game designers. Paizo's FAQ comes from the designers themselves and is actually errata.

Good to know


Note that the vest vs Hellfire blast has been debated over and over on these forums, and there is no clear consensus on if it should work as written or not. Your Hellfire curative options come down to the following:

Take the feat for the vest. Cheapest option, but the most controversial. Verify with your DM first.
Binder: One level of binder solves it with no ambiguity whatsoever, costs a class level, but not the end of the world with an Ur-Lock given it helps you reach your save prereq for Ur-Priest
Rod of Bodily Restoration, wielded by you or a familiar. Just costs gold and actions.
Lesser Restoration either from you or the party cleric.



Good to know, already solved the problem with Binder though. And agree about the argument. Seeing it around a lot, no general consensus, etc. Getting tired of it myself.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Note that the vest vs Hellfire blast has been debated over and over on these forums, and there is no clear consensus on if it should work as written or not.

I could have just not been in those threads, but anyone time Hellfire Warlock is brought up the consensus on Strongheart Vest seemed consistent. The only thing disagreeing with is the FAQ and they are the same people who said UM's class ability does not work exactly the way it says it does because Mage's Lucubration exists.

[Necroticplague]

Are you ignoring the D&D faq that I linked?

The FAQ you link you have used the logic "Strongheart Vest protects against attacks. This isn't an attack, so it doesn't protect against it.", which, as torrasque pointed out earlier, is flat out incorrect. It says precisely jack squat about whether you are required to first take the damage, then get the damage boost, or if the merely happen at the same time.

[Mission0]

I could have just not been in those threads, but anyone time Hellfire Warlock is brought up the consensus on Strongheart Vest seemed consistent. The only thing disagreeing with is the FAQ and they are the same people who said UM's class ability does not work exactly the way it says it does because Mage's Lucubration exists.

heheh, yeah I can see what you're saying. In the end it'll probably still end up in the domain of the Dungeon Master to decide on the ruling. I'm not too worried about it because I've already got Binder to take care of it for me, and the DM seems pretty excited about the roleplay aspects for it.

Otyough Hole made my character go crazy, and the Vestiges are the voices he hears (thanks to Red Rubber Band for that).


The FAQ you link you have used the logic "Strongheart Vest protects against attacks. This isn't an attack, so it doesn't protect against it.", which, as torrasque pointed out earlier, is flat out incorrect. It says precisely jack squat about whether you are required to first take the damage, then get the damage boost, or if the merely happen at the same time.

Clarify please? I think the faq explanation is fairly straight forward. Strongheart Vest says in the first line of its description. "The strongheart vest protects you from attacks that would reduce your ability scores." Hellfire Blast isn't attacking you, so Strongheart Vest doesn't protect against it.

If you're arguing that you can still use the Hellfire Blast with the vest on, you'd be right (Darn, just realized my previous post on my interpretation was poorly worded). You'd just still take the ability damage because the Vest wouldn't protect you.

[Snowbluff]

Mission0, the FAQ isn't referring to the ability of the Strongheart Vest. I haven't found the soulmeld that they are referring to and works as described, but I will tell you when I find it. The first line is fluff. The last lines always apply, even if the first is functional.

[torrasque666]

Clarify please? I think the faq explanation is fairly straight forward. Strongheart Vest says in the first line of its description. "The strongheart vest protects you from attacks that would reduce your ability scores." Hellfire Blast isn't attacking you, so Strongheart Vest doesn't protect against it.
The first line of a soulmeld gives the summery of what the soulmeld does. And in most cases, its right. However the very next line states that its anytime you'd take ability damage, not just when an attack would cause it.

[Mission0]

Mission0, the FAQ isn't referring to the ability of the Strongheart Vest. I haven't found the soulmeld that they are referring to and works as described, but I will tell you when I find it. The first line is fluff. The last lines always apply, even if the first is functional.

Last page of the Main D&D FAQ that they have there. Specifically says Strongheart Vest.


The first line of a soulmeld gives the summery of what the soulmeld does. And in most cases, its right. However the very next line states that its anytime you'd take ability damage, not just when an attack would cause it.

Yeah, gotta love poorly written things. I don't think I will be persuaded away from agreeing with the faq because I'm a RAI person rather than RAW. However you all make valid points for the ability to protect against it, and I wouldn't fault a DM for going with either side of the argument.

[Snowbluff]

Last page of the Main D&D FAQ that they have there. Specifically says Strongheart Vest.
Not according to what they have written.

Even with that ruling, Hellfire Blast is an attack. You take ability damage from the Hellfire Blast attack. Strongheart Vest would protect you from the attack.

[Mission0]

Not according to what they have written.

Even with that ruling, Hellfire Blast is an attack. You take ability damage from the Hellfire Blast attack. Strongheart Vest would protect you from the attack.

I... what are you reading? This is what I'm reading from the faq, it rather specifically says Strongheart Vest


Would the strongheart vest soulmeld (MoI 89) protect you from the ability damage of the hellfire warlock’s hellfire blast ability (FCII 90)?

The strongheart vest soulmeld reduces the amount of ability damage you receive from an attack; however, it does not keep you safe from the costs of hellfire blast because the ability damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.

Also, are you saying that I am attacking myself by using the Hellfire blast ability? I can't quite follow your logic there. Sure, the Hellfire Blast is used to attack. However, i'm not attacking myself with it.

[Rebel7284]

The rules text don't actually say that the attack needs to target yourself, so an attack against someone else that ALSO damages you, technically would fit that qualification.

HOWEVER, hellfire blast isn't actually an attack. It modifies Eldrich Blast. It's like Bless Weapon or some such. :)

Anyway, I already listed reasons why Binder is a great dip regardless.

[Necroticplague]

Clarify please? I think the faq explanation is fairly straight forward. Strongheart Vest says in the first line of its description. "The strongheart vest protects you from attacks that would reduce your ability scores." Hellfire Blast isn't attacking you, so Strongheart Vest doesn't protect against it.

Oh, I'm not saying the FAQ isn't straightforward. I'm saying its wrong.

If we're going to start slinging quotes around:
Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0. The portion you quote is descriptive, not prescriptive. It says what it does, without giving any actual mechanics for it. Protecting you from all ability damage includes being protected from attacks that would reduce your ability scores.

EDIT:Side-note, if it only applied to attacks, it would be practically useless. Ability damage is almost never from an attack, and instead as a rider to some other effect (poison isn't an attack, for example).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I always thought that the argument against Strongheart Vest was that it prevents the Con damage, which means Hellfire Blast doesn't work. Some also argued that it made you immune to the con damage from Hellfire Blast, which disqualified you from using it.

At any rate, this is one of my more favorite builds, although I typically don't go Hellfire when I'm going Ur-Lock. Typically, instead of HFW, I toss in a two-level dip in Chameleon and a one-level dip in Mindbender. Chameleon2 nets you a floating feat that can be used to replicate any given useful 'one tier lower than your max tier invocation' from Extra Invocation, if nothing else. Adds some flexibility and versatility to the class. Know you are going to go up against a bunch of trolls? Load up Brimstone Blast for the day. Going after some Salamanders? Load up Hellrime Blast. Know that you are going up against a thieves guild? Best pack that Darkness for 20% concealment that completely negates precision-based damage. Pretty darn useful, actually. Stupidly good with Warlock12, but you won't get that with an Ur-Lock.

And the dip in Mindbender is for the Telepathy so you qualify for Mindsight feat that basically makes you the party radar array. Anything non-mindless within 100' shows up, you'll know about it and roughly where they are.

Generally, when I go HFW, I cheese it up with Legacy Champion for around 40d6 damage per shot. Then Quicken SLA on Eldritch Glaive. Eight swings of 40d6 is enough to reduce Big T down to negatives, particularly if paired with Empower SLA.