Frost Brand vs Scimitar of Speed?

[MrUberGr]

Our party got these two items awarded. We were playing with some homebrew magic items, due to the lack of DMG, and now that we got it, our DM decided to re-roll everything. So, now we have these two swords, and basically I can get my pick.

I'm a valor bard, and I was using a +1 magic rapier until now and a shield. My dexterity is 16. We're level 13.

So, my options are the following:

Frost Brand rapier:
Resistance to fire, lights up on freezing temperatures (meh), can extinguish nonmagical flames in 30 ft radius (can see it saving my life, but meh)
5 prof + 3 dex = +8 on attack rolls, for 1d8+3+1d6 (avg 11) damage. Two attacks

Scimitar of speed:
attack as a bonus action, +2 enhancement
5 prof + 3 dex +2 enhancement = +10 on attack rolls for 1d6+5 (avg 8.5) damage. Two, probably 3 attacks.

The thing is that I have plenty of things to do on my bonus action. Whether it is handing out inspiration dice, using a spell such as animate objects etc. The accuracy of the frost brand is a bit low though.

P.S. there's a chance one of the players will change what he's playing, into a rogue. ATM, he's got an Agility Ioun Stone, which if he plays a rogue, he won't need since he'll have 20 Dex to start with. So, I will get that, since I'm the only other one who is using Dex.

[Giant2005]

Scimitar of Speed is better even without the bonus attack.

[Yagyujubei]

I would take the frost brand personally. while the scimitar is better as far as pure dps is concerned, the frostbrand would be alot more fun rp-wise with the little extra stuff it can do and fire resistance is pretty damn strong

[theMycon]

I disagree with the above responses on "damage".

Assuming this whole "Bounded Accuracy" thing works out, the expected damage per hit should be in the frost brand's favor. As long as you have at least a 34% chance to hit with the frost brand (hits on a 13+), it does more damage than the Scimtar. (Cite (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x*11+%3D%3D+%28x%2B0.1%29*8.5)).

You're not going to use the third swing often. You should *always* have a better bonus action than one more attack. If you *do* use the third attack, though, the damage is always in the scimtar's favor.

The other perks are not only strictly more useful than nothing, they're kinda cool.

[Justin Sane]

Which one do you think it's coolest (not best)? Go with that one.

[LuthielValkire]

These are two fantastic choices. I'm jealous ;p.

If you have a lot of things filling out your bonus action slot, I'd go for the frost brand. Great flavor and basically two items in one. If you're going to often be able to use that bonus slot to take those extra hits, then the scimitar...

[MrUberGr]

Well, we also got a bunch of useless stuff! The DM rolled completely randomly according to the tables. We also got a Clay Golem Manual, which I do not know whether I'm gonna use.

My only hesitation is that with the frost brand, my attack bonus isn't that great.

[Shining Wrath]

It seems as though the setting is key. If your DM is fond of salamanders a Frost Brand is worth its weight in platinum. If your DM likes foes immune to cold damage the FB is a nice wall decoration for your keep.

As a valor bard you do have lots of choices for your bonus action (as noted) but having +2 to hit is very nice, especially if your DM likes high AC foes.

I think I see it this way: if you're up against a "boss" monster you'll be using your bonus action for inspiration et cetera and probably not getting close enough to the big baddie to use your melee weapon at all. In that case, the fringe benefits of the FB might be helpful.

If you're up against a horde of mooks, the SoS would be very useful.

I'd rather be certain I can handle the bosses. Take the Frost Brand.

[MrUberGr]

When it comes to horde of mooks, everybody becomes quiet and looks at me in a funny way. We roll initiative, I declare my attack.

HYPNOTIC PATTERN DC 18

The DM goes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

Starts rolling dice.

We slit their throats and go on our way. :smallcool:

[LuthielValkire]

When it comes to horde of mooks, everybody becomes quiet and looks at me in a funny way. We roll initiative, I declare my attack.

HYPNOTIC PATTERN DC 18

The DM goes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

Starts rolling dice.

We slit their throats and go on our way. :smallcool:

Hahaha!! Brilliant!

It's a tough choice, Mr Uber. That +2 to hit could come in very handy. And the xtra full attack is useful when it does come up. I have a soft spot in my heart for frost brands, though. Just the coolness. I suppose I'm not being very helpful...

[Giant2005]

I disagree with the above responses on "damage".

Assuming this whole "Bounded Accuracy" thing works out, the expected damage per hit should be in the frost brand's favor. As long as you have at least a 34% chance to hit with the frost brand (hits on a 13+), it does more damage than the Scimtar. (Cite (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x*11+%3D%3D+%28x%2B0.1%29*8.5)).

You're not going to use the third swing often. You should *always* have a better bonus action than one more attack. If you *do* use the third attack, though, the damage is always in the scimtar's favor.

The other perks are not only strictly more useful than nothing, they're kinda cool.

What sort of situation would the Frost Band be better in?
Strong monsters tend to have high AC, so the Scimitar will average higher damage against them.
Against hordes of lesser monsters you don't need inspiration so you will want a third attack to kill a third monster (And doing overkill damage doesn't help anyone).
There might be a very small niche window in between those two extremes somewhere but that window is far too limited to make the Frost Band a reasonable choice over the Scimitar.

[mephnick]

The rapier is kind of cool. (heh)

The scimitar is just numbers.

I choose rapier.

[theMycon]

What sort of situation would the Frost Band be better in?
"When you're a bard" situations. He has lvl 7 spells at this point. If hitting a dude with a pointy stick isn't working well, the solution isn't "try swinging the stick faster", it's "try something different".

I'm assuming he's picked at least one spell that's useful in combat by this point; because he cares enough about optimization to ask this board. I'm also assuming that if he feels genuinely threatened, he'll be willing to spend some form of resource on the fight, because of course he would.

That said...



Strong monsters tend to have high AC, so the Scimitar will average higher damage against them.
Against hordes of lesser monsters you don't need inspiration so you will want a third attack to kill a third monster (And doing overkill damage doesn't help anyone).
There might be a very small niche window in between those two extremes somewhere but that window is far too limited to make the Frost Band a reasonable choice over the Scimitar.
The numbers say the window is "any monsters from the monster manual, when he has spells remaining."

By the Stats by CR (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387385-Monster-Stat-By-CR-(CR-0-20-Completed)) page's average AC for level 13, with the frost brand he should hit an "average" enemy on a 9+ (60% chance to hit). Since it works out better in any (two swing) situation he hits on a 13* or lower (see my previous post), and monsters with AC of 22 or more are so rare they're not even in the Monster Manual CR 1-20 set, the frost brand mathematically does more damage in any situation where "swing my sword like a normal weapon" is his action.

For the two outlier situations that you mentioned, playing a bard like a fighter just isn't the best course of action. A bard's schtick is "I always have another trick up my sleeve, so I never have to fight on your terms".

If he's fighting a horde of mooks, any AoE effect is going to be more effective than swinging a sword 2/3 times. If he has any AoE Damage**, it clearly outstrips weapon damage, and if he doesn't, even the level 1 spell faerie fire would do more to help than "attack for an average of 8.5 damage 3 times."

The only things where the AC could be high enough to be in the scimitar's favor are homebrew, epic, & PC-class characters who are meant to be heavily armored. Going toe-to-toe against these guys in melee is just dumb. It's a high-risk, low reward course of action, and he has other options.

*If the other guy does go rogue and he gets the +Dex Ioun stone, then this obviously tilts more in the Frost Brand's favor.
**not to mention saying "I'm fire resistant and can pick a few wizard spells. I fireball the area around myself!" would be hilarious and practical.